How do you see chi sao?

[curtis]

Hello everyone.

Wing chun dose chi sao, but every one looks at it differently, so I'm asking what is chi soa To you. What are the goals,as far as you see it?

some video clips I've seen look like Sumo wrestling, others look more like a street fight. still others...

Ok I will try to limit the scope of this message.

When dose Chi sao stop? once the first firm strike has landed? or when someone has been pushed out side a box???
I was taught the game ends on the first firm strike, and should begin again on rotation.
As I see it the goal is to maintain an offensive and defensive potential while in contact with an opponent.My goal is to maintain control while in contact, not to lose it because of striking or defending.
but it seems not everyone sees it the same way.

So again I ask how do you see it?
Any and all commentary is welcome.
C.A.G.

[YongChun]

Here is one view:

The purpose of chi sau is to teach you what to do once contact has been made. The other part of Wing Chun is the art and skill of making contact.

When two good practitioners engage in a fight and are in contact then it is chi sau until one party is out of action (real or imagined ).

When training however, chi sau can continue even though either or both parties have been theoretically killed off as in chops to the throat, thumbs to the eyes or punches to the nose. Perhaps there is a momentary mental acknowledgement of a stop even though the action may continue in a continuous way.

Ray

[marcus_pasram]

Hi,

Your opponent is not going to tell you where he will attack, but he will attack you through exposed gates. You can learn how to cover these exposed areas. SiFu Duncan Leung and SiFu Allan Lee both approach Chi Sau from a pov of coverage.

Single sticky hands where one student does bong Sau, Tan Sau, palm strike and the other balances with punch, Fuk Sau and jut Sau is the first approach to understanding coverage and leverage of the tan, punch, bong and fuk hands.

Similarly, Lap Sau is another platform to learn about coverage through continuous motion. Later on, it comes to full two hand chi sau where the students progress their understanding.

Here is a clip from a recent open house in New York explaining this idea.

/Marcus

[sihing]

I think Chi-sao means many things to many people. To bottleneck it and say it is strictly this or that is incorrect IMO. At times it can be used as a drill to train certain attributes (forward pressure, sensitivity, coordination, structure, etc..), and at other times you learn actual fighting applications. There are so many variations out there today, so I choose to look at it in a variety of ways. But like anything it is not the be all and end all of WC, and it has to be practiced with everything else. Fighting situations do not always begin being in contact with your opponent, sometimes, or most of the time there is space between you and your attacker. If chi-sao is all you know then you may be lost at this stage or range of combat..

James

[wei wu wei]

Chi Sao is a means by which to create good habits.

[curtis]

Thank you all for your replies.
I agree, on most points,But I guess it is the curse of wingchun. everyone see's everything in a holey different light. there is no one standard.
Every Master dose things his own way, even if they all were taught by the same teacher.YipMan.

I see chi soa as a drill (a very good game) to teach the art of trapping as well as the refinement of, closing down of your gates/ primeters.

[Matrix]

Originally Posted by wei wu wei

Chi Sao is a means by which to create good habits.

Brief. To the point. Right on, IMO.

[ghostofwingchun]

Originally Posted by wei wu wei

Chi Sao is a means by which to create good habits.

This answer intrigues me . . . can you tell me what makes some thing a good habit or not a good habit? How do I know if I have good habits? How can I tell if others have good habits? Can chi sao only create good habits?

Thanks,

Ghost

[sihing]

Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun

This answer intrigues me . . . can you tell me what makes some thing a good habit or not a good habit? How do I know if I have good habits? How can I tell if others have good habits? Can chi sao only create good habits?

Thanks,

Ghost

Good question. To me good habits are those things that have two elements present at all times. Movements/Concepts/Principals/Techniques that work for everyday people when applied to combat (Effectiveness), and Movements/Concepts/Principals/Techniques that reflect less and more direct movement (Efficiency), are good habits to develop in combat. Specifically, Chi-sao, teaches both elements to a certain degree, but not the totality of combat, other things are required to complete the cycle.

These things are measurable ( for example, more complicated applications are less effective and efficient) so you can look at yourself and others and know from how they move if what they are doing (regarding the system they practice, not necessarily the individual themselves) is regarded as someone with good habits.

In General, someone that trains regularly and with intensity, has good habits, but training alone is not always the way to effective fighting. Sooner or later, what you do and how you do it comes into play. Anyone can train hard, but if they have no idea on how to train and what they are doing and training towards, then the progress is not as signifigant. Follow someone that has the skills you want, as they have travelled the path before you, and can lead you there faster if they are free with the information and skills they have.

James

[ghostofwingchun]

Thank you Mr. sihing for your response! Can you explain to me please what you mean by everyday people? How can I measure effectiveness? Maybe more complicated works for some reason than simple . . . is amount of movement the only factor? I am trying to understand how I can know if I have good habits or bad habits . . . so I need some way to know if something is a good habit or bad habit . . . how do I tell? You are right . . . it does seem sensible to follow some one with skills you want. This is helpful.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Matrix]

Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun

Can chi sao only create good habits?

Good chi sao will create good habits, bad chi sao will create or reinforce bad habits. It's like the forms or any other training element, if you repeat good structure and timing you will reinforce those positive qualities. Chi sao adds something that other training forms tend not to.

Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun

. . . can you tell me what makes some thing a good habit or not a good habit? How do I know if I have good habits? How can I tell if others have good habits?

This is one of the most helpful and unique training aspects that you gain from chi sao. You can literally "feel" good structure, timing and forward energy, etc when you train chi sao with a skilled partner. As a basic example, if you have the bad habit of letting your elbow float out on your tan sao, your brother or sister will let you know this by driving a punch into the center of you chest, because their forward energy will automatically fill in the hole they feel in your structure. So you will learn the good habit of keeping that elbow in, but it may take a few reminders.
You will know that you have good habits when you can maintain control of the center, and easily feel when your partner attempts to make a move. If you are too stiff in your structure, you will feel very little if anything - you may also find that your shoulders get tired after short periods of chi sao training.

Keep in mind that chi sao has a progession of its own. You start with the basic rolling and add levels of complexity as your skill level improves.

Of course, you will also have your sifu to correct your habits, and it's good for him to see how you move your structure in a more dynamic context. The trained eye can really pick these things up quite easily.

[sihing]

Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun

Thank you Mr. sihing for your response! Can you explain to me please what you mean by everyday people? How can I measure effectiveness? Maybe more complicated works for some reason than simple . . . is amount of movement the only factor? I am trying to understand how I can know if I have good habits or bad habits . . . so I need some way to know if something is a good habit or bad habit . . . how do I tell? You are right . . . it does seem sensible to follow some one with skills you want. This is helpful.

Thanks,

Ghost

Everyday people are people like you and me. People that only have limited amounts of training time and interest. To me, if something Martial Arts related does not work for the average person (after some understanding and practice with it) then it is not effective. IMO there are differences regarding effectiveness between Martial Arts. Wing Chun is one of the most effective arts if understood and absorbed.

If the movements work better and efficiently (which basically means less movement and effort), you have effectiveness, its as simple as that. Much easier to explain in person.

The reason some more complicated things work is the individual. I never look at individuals, but what the system they practice teaches. Efficiency and Effectiveness are what is key IMO.

Through experience and exposure you learn what "good habits" are. Investigate and understand what you are learning, and what the other Arts teach and eventually you will learn what works and what doesn't for most people. Remember there will always be exceptional people in every Martial Art that can make things work for them, due to their love and dedication to that respective art.

Gotta run....
James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think that Ray (YongChun) really put his finger on it with this remark:

"The purpose of chi sau is to teach you what to do once contact has been made."

As a main frame of reference. And within that frame many concepts, strategies, and techniques are found.

What I would like to add, however, is the important understanding that chi sao only teaches what very close range, limb-to-limb contact reflex fighting can be about.

It will not cover longer, non contact ranges; and in fact, trying to simply glue the concepts learned in chi sao onto longer range fighting can be counter productive and inefficient. There is some overlap, (centerline, gates, etc.)...but at longer ranges these concepts have to be used somewhat differently - and other concepts, strategies, and techniques not necessarily found in chi sao at all need to be applied (other types of footwork, as well as longer range punching and kicking techniques)...

If you want to maximize your fighting potential.

[Matrix]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

It will not cover longer, non contact ranges; and in fact, trying to glue the concepts learned in chi sao onto longer range fighting can be counter productive and inefficient.

Non-contact range is less of a concern for some reason. Once in contact range (long or short) the situation changes. If you're merely "gluing" concepts into fighting then I am not at all surprised that they would be ineffective. Besides, no one is saying that Chi Sao is the end-all and be-all of training. It is just another tool to develop good skills. We need to use the right tool for the right job. As the saying goes, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, all you problems tend to look like nails".

[sihing]

All fighting essentially ends up close range. But not all confrontations begin in close. So you have to know about alignment and postioning concerning yourself and your opponent at the longer ranges. The key is to know how to enter safely and end up in a position to your advantage. Once there chi-sao helps tremendously. Being a step in closer than a boxer makes it more difficult for your opponent to react (unless of course they have similar skill sets, which is uncommon), and is one of the underlying concepts of the Wing Chun system, closer range fighting.

James