Phoenix Eye Punch

[couch]

The following is from the appliedkungfu.com website:
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Biu Jee

The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques.
Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.
The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power.
The phoenix eye punch has no compassion.
Fak Sau, Ginger Fist, and Guide Bridge; their movements are closely coordinated and hard to defend and nullify.
Springy power and the extended arm are applied to close range.
The situation is different when preventing from defeat in an emergency.
The Biu Jee is not taught to outsiders.
How many Sifu pass on the proper heritage?
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Pretty cool Kuen Kuit stuff. The question I would like everyone's opinion on is the 4th line. Does this line relate directly to the Biu Jee form itself? In your Biu Jee form, do you have this punch within the form? Is this type of punch in another form (Chum Kiu)? Or maybe it's in one of the drills you do?

Please discuss,
Kenton Sefcik

[Tom Kagan]

Originally Posted by couch

... Does this line relate directly to the Biu Jee form itself? In your Biu Jee form, do you have this punch within the form? Is this type of punch in another form (Chum Kiu)? Or maybe it's in one of the drills you do?

In answer to questions

#1. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.
#2. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.
#3. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.
#4. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.

[monkeyspoon]

i haven't yet reached biu jee, but i understand that the knife forms contain the phoenix eye strike, is this right?

[Tom Kagan]

Originally Posted by monkeyspoon

i haven't yet reached biu jee, but i understand that the knife forms contain the phoenix eye strike, is this right?

#5. No, unless I feel like it. Then ... well, you get the idea.

[anerlich]

The phoenix eye fist is not in TWC's bil jee or any other form. We don't have ginger fists either.

However, as Tom said, you could put it into your bil jee or any other form if you wished (wailing away on the dummy with it might not be a gret idea). The forms are vocabularies of techniques and patterns of effective movement, not a set of restrictions on what you are allowed or not allowed to do.

FWIW, GM Cheung advocates (I heard all this at a seminar he gave) conditioning the knuckle and the rest of the fist in order to use the phoenix eye for dim mak. But he also says that dim mak applications are impractical in the frenzied chaos of a fight, and that if you can't fight without dim mak, there's no point trying to learn it for fighting.

[n.mitch]

We dont have the Phoenix eye in our bil jee either. I have seen the wsl form and the twc form and dont recall seing it ther either.
What is the ginger fist?
the main person ive seen doing the phoenix fist in artices is william cheung and alfredo de brocco, i always just thought it must have been in the william cheung method.
Ive seen Ian protheroe forms and dont recall it in there but he does his forms a little different from william i think.
Anerlich does Rick spain still do the twc forms the same as william or are they changed now? I heard the sil lim tau is done in a front stance now?

[viper]

I pretty sure in the william cheung line there is no phoenix knuckle. In one of the wing chun fighting stratergies dvd ive got of sigungs he talks about how to train it and use it. Suppose you could throw it in there if you wanted.

[anerlich]

n.mitch:

You are correct, we do the forms in front stance. SLT we do now has more footwork than the TWC Advanced SLT also.

My Sifu said GM Cheung showed it to him that way once. If anyone has problems with that, talk to him, not me. The way we do it IMHO develops certain footwork and defensive attributes and angles not developed so well by the "regular" TWC CK or BJ. YMMV.

I pretty sure in the william cheung line there is no phoenix knuckle.

In the forms there is not. But, as I said earlier, I've been to seminars where GM Cheung expounded on it at length and described conditioning methods for its use. So it IS in the system.

Ive seen Ian protheroe forms and dont recall it in there but he does his forms a little different from william i think.

I've read Sifu Protheroe's book - good book, BTW - and the forms look pretty close. He may have made more recent changes, of course. GM Cheung's made small changes over time and taught different people differently as well. For example the Bil jee in his book differs from the Bil Jee taught in our kwoon when we were in the WWCKFA.

What is the ginger fist?

It's like a leopard paw from Shaolin systems. striking with the second knuckles of the fingers. Nanyang WC use it and so too do others probably. Haven't used it where I am, but we also have dummy forms with top wrist trikes and tiger claws, FWI(W.

[viper]

yeah sorry I didnt make myself clear im aware thats its not in the forms thats what i meant sorry about the mix up.

[viper]

Also with the ginger fist we use it in our kwoon.My sifu was sayin that when he studied unger Gm Cheung he showed him that but he says he didint use it much thats what my sifu says.

[Liddel]

I have the Ginger punch in Chum Kiu and Biu Jee but i have never come across the Phoenix eye punch in VT before.

In Chum Kiu it comes from Bong Sao using inch and elbow power at the head area,
and in Biu Jee it uses inch and waist power aimed at the torso area.

You must have a conditioned wrist for support when using it to strike even the soft areas of the throat, i seldom use it in real combat instead relying on the palm, however my Sifu has used it infront of me with very powerful results and im told he got the necessary power in his wrists from the Bat Chum Do.

[monkeyspoon]

thank you, someone who also recognises the phoenix eye strike wrist movement in the baat cham do

[couch]

Originally Posted by monkeyspoon

thank you, someone who also recognises the phoenix eye strike wrist movement in the baat cham do

Thanks for all the input. With the above comment...you are saying that the wrist movement of the phoenix eye fist is present in the sword form? Could you explain where to me? Interesting ideas!

Thanks!

[monkeyspoon]

im not yet on the knife form, yet i have tried various parts of it and had bits described to me, but one thing i found quite obvious was the slashing/chopping strike with the knife cause the wrist to bend forward as the knife moves from vertical to horizontal ( as opposed to the jabbing strikes) - this is the best way i can describe it in words really.... the motion is similar to that of the phoenix eye strike, however, the knives, being added weight, enable you to train it harder. i consider the phoenix eye strike to be very valuable and potentially useful, if very dangerous. if you have the oppurtunity to strike a target in a vulnerable area with enough accuracy, the phoenix eye fist can be very effective (IMHO etc etc.)

as for biu jee...isnt there a lot of wrist flicking in the very first section? arent some downward - i guess this is a thumb gouge? but maybe it can be a phoenix eye strike too, same wrist action, different hand shape?

im a humble chum kiu student so im preparing to be heavily slated

[Liddel]

Monkeyspoon even though i do agree to some extent with you, i was not reffering to the phoenix eye punch from my own experience. I only have the ginger punch in my VT.

I was merely trying to state that the weight, and as you mentioned wrist actions, of the Bat Chum Do allow a student to train wrist power which helps in any action that relys on the wrist.

I study the Lok Dim Boon not the double swords, but from what my master has shown me during discussions is that as the knife/s go in you turn at the wrist making a gash become a hole allowing blood to pour and minimising recovery from such an attack.

Such actions require wrist power that are useful for the ginger punch which i use and i would imagine the phoenix eye punch that you stated


Where in your form do you have the phoenix eye punch ?
Is it a fist with one knuckle protruding like i think ? are we talking about the same thing ?

Curious