Traditional Forms and moves

[Newb]

Originally posted by red5angel
makes sense to me, for the most part it's all short powerful shots that are no nonsense. No flower. The flower looks good but the quick stuff is what wins.
As for being tough and getting tough. I think it's a good idea. I'm not saying you shouldn't work on your defense but working with all these fancy blocks and dodges often times just gets you into trouble, sort of sets you on the defensive. In real fights atleast, taking the shots makes or breaks you.

I'm not a CMA practitioner really, I'd like some of you long term users views. In another thread lkfmdc wrote that you didn't see things like 'tiger style' being implemented, you saw more 'kickboxing' when he witnessed some fights. Red replied above that it should be expected, since in a fight you focus on 'power shots, and not flower'.

I don't think using the different styles as 'flower', but as a highly evolved form of fighting art that puts maximum power while maintaining full control. Would you see more traditional fighting methods such as stances and so fourth, if you have 2 or 3 highly proficient CMA masters?

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

The problem is that people see forms as "records of fights."

That couldn't be ****her from the truth. Forms, stance, etc. are training TOOLS.

In fact I have rarely seen either of my main teachers use a movement directly as it is utilized in the form.

It is almost always modified.

Kung Fu forms are enigmas or puzzles. They're the embodiment of movement and body mechanics priiniples put together in an aesthetic way.

The applications are there but you have to dig for them. Sometimes they were purposefully hidden. Sometimes one movement could have 10 applications of varying usefullness.

Its when people take the form to be LITERAL, like you use move X to counter move Y that forms become a problem.

So to answer your question. When you see two true CMA master fight you will probably not see much at all. It will be over too quickly.

Whoevers, training "tools" were more effective will win the fight.

[Newb]

you're right, i wasn't thinking of forms as the evolved fighting techniques, i was thinking of the actual moves as well as the shifting of the moves in the form as the evolved art. It's kind of like music, the music or magic isn't in the notes, it's in between the notes. In a good form, the secret is how you move from one part to another that utilizes a higher understand of dynamics and the human body.

[gfx]

the way I see it, a lot of the techniques are for certain situations. If one can win the fight with the bread and butter punch kicks, then there's no reason to use the more complicated ones. But if not, then the "advanced" ones may come in handy to suprise the opponent.

If you expect the fight to be like what you see in movies, then no.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Newb
It's kind of like music, the music or magic isn't in the notes, it's in between the notes. In a good form, the secret is how you move from one part to another that utilizes a higher understand of dynamics and the human body.

That's a great analogy. I play guitar so I can relate.

When you first learn guitar you learn where to put your hands, how to play the notes with correct form, the shape of the scales, the relation of the scales to chords, etc.

But none of this makes you a good musician. Its what you do with that raw material in real time that makes you good or bad.
It takes experience and the development of "the feel" over time.

However, if you never learned the scales or the rudiments and I put you on stage right away with some top notch musicians, you'd sink. Let's say I did that every night for a year. Eventually, overtime you'd figure out something to play that sounded decent.
Maybe you'd develop into a good musician overtime but it would take much longer than if I drilled some theory into you up front.

The same can methodology can be applied to martial arts.

The forms are the rudiments, the scales, ripe with possibility. But you have to make them into something of your own. You have to, in some fashion "jam" with other people to find what works for you.

People that only focus on forms are like the music teacher crowd. They know all the notes, music theory, etc. but they lack talent and they can't "jam." They haven't made their knowledge their own.

On the flipside the people that say you should jump in from day one "sink or swim" are in error. It takes much longer to make progress, if you don't have a solid background in the rudiments.

Therefore, form and improvisation are both important to mastery....whether martial or musical arts.

What we argue about on this forum is a matter of degree...how much form do you need vs. how much improvisational "practice" do you need to be an effective fighter....that is.... when the BIG SHOW or the BIG FIGHT comes around.

Peace.

[Becca]

The applications are there but you have to dig for them. Sometimes they were purposefully hidden. Sometimes one movement could have 10 applications of varying usefullness.

You don't have to dig so very much. You do have to stop looking for what you expect to see, and just experiment a bit. Also, if you only got 10 apps out of one froms sequence, I'd say you either weren't looking for them or that was one very complicated delivery meathod.

The forms are the rudiments, the scales, ripe with possibility. But you have to make them into something of your own. You have to, in some fashion "jam" with other people to find what works for you.

On this, I agree 100%. There's one lady in our class who flat-out refuses to spar, then wonders why she fails the prac app portion of rank test.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by gfx
the way I see it, a lot of the techniques are for certain situations. If one can win the fight with the bread and butter punch kicks, then there's no reason to use the more complicated ones. But if not, then the "advanced" ones may come in handy to suprise the opponent.

If you expect the fight to be like what you see in movies, then no.

If you can't even make simple techniques work, why would you think advanced ones will help you more?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun

On the flipside the people that say you should jump in from day one "sink or swim" are in error. It takes much longer to make progress, if you don't have a solid background in the rudiments.

not necessarily. The idea is to teach you to use what you have. Let's use bjj as an example. Your first several months of class, you most likely WILL NOT tap out a blue belt or above if you've never had any other grappling experience. Should you not roll for these months? you learn to use what you have. as a white belt, you are basically a rat in a snake pit. The only things that are gonna keep you alive are your natural attributes - strength, speed and stamina. THis is good, as you are learning to use these things. As you get more comfortable, you learn to relax. In addition, you are learning more techiques. Now, you use those natural attributes only when necessary... you learn to use it to your advantage.

From what I've seen, such a method does not stagnate learning at all - I think it actually speeds it up. you are learning, drilling and sparring all at the same time. By doing this, if your school makes students wait one year (for example) before allowing them to spar, the student who has been doing it since inception is one year ahead of you.

[Becca]

Originally posted by SevenStar
... From what I've seen, such a method does not stagnate learning at all - I think it actually speeds it up. you are learning, drilling and sparring all at the same time. By doing this, if your school makes students wait one year (for example) before allowing them to spar, the student who has been doing it since inception is one year ahead of you.

Mostly agree with this, as well. But there is some value in not expecting a newb to start right off the bat. My school does not allow sparring untill they pass their first rank test. But that is, at most, only about 3 months if the student is sudious and active in and out class with thier practice.


P.S. empty your in box, dude.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Becca

P.S. empty your in box, dude.

done.

[unixfudotnet]

A lot of stuff in forms, especially tai chi forms, are not so much hidden, as they are not understandable yet. That is one good thing about them, it isn't just a form, it is more than that. It is the embodiment (spelling?) of the art and style.

Like my teachers have told me, "I could tell you everything, but you would not understand it because you just aren't there yet". I have a long way to go, even one that has been doing tai chi for 20 years still has many things he doesn't understand, but definitely many things he does that are just amazing to me

I suppose there are two ways to look at forms from what I have seen people look at them as:

1) method teaching you how to do x in response to y ( as in an organized method of straight out fighting )

2) the art and style teachings ( the "document" of the art and style that has been passed down for generations that you must trust in and respect as you do your teacher )


forms are important, we are the generation that is learning the current state of martial arts, we are the ones that hold it for the next generation.