Grappling at Wing Chun?????

[blooming lotus]

Lets talk Wc and grappling, throws, locks, holds and takedowns..............


we all know these things are are an essential part of any complete art .......... so in Wing Chun, no sarcasim about it.where exactly is this represented???.........


I may've overlooked something, but here's my take......


It has been a contraversial discussion over and over whether r not dimmak is part of the WC sysytem no???.........

Here's what I know.........

a. dimmak has " mythical " root in Wc.....

b. Dimmak in china is commonly know as chin na....

c. chin na is a conceptual lock, hold and point manipulation sytem of shaolin

d. there are rumours that WC's 5 elders were directly or otherwise affiliated with shaolin.

e. Wing chn, Vin tsun, is a taiwanese phrase....

f. according to the legend of the five elders, and the red opera, some of these and their students defected / escaped abroad.

g. you will find cause to argue every point I made........




soooo.........if giving benifit of doubt to my statements and conclusions.........where is the grappling etc at Wing Chun????????

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good Wing Chun doesn't need grappling.

[sihing]

Wing Chun Does not "concentrate" on Grappling, but it shouldn't ignore it since it is all already in the system, just not done the same way as other styles or specific systems of grappling, and since just for the fact that there are and will be more and more grapplers out there we as WC players should look at that range and know how to deal with it. As for Chin-na(which in my mind means joint-locks, pressure point manipulation, more passive techniques), again it is all in the system, we use it all the time in class, but it is one of those things that is hard to actually apply in real life, you can't make it happen(unless your really skilled at it like Aikido/Jujitsu masters). I advise the students that these types of things have to be applied at the right moment, when the opportunity arise for it to work effectively. Dim-Mak, "the death touch", I believe it exists, but with all the specific training involved, and TCM knowledge of pressure points and chi energy patterns and such, it is just not practical in today's world, or reliable. I'd rather learn Iron Palm, at least with this I can hit you anywhere on your body, at any time of the day/season, from inches away from your body and seriously hurt you or kill you.

Sihing

[AmanuJRY]

Wing Chun does not have any grappling, traditionally at least (not that I have seen anyway).

To understand why this is you must understand strategy in martial arts. Every art has it's 'base' strategy, TKD's is to keep your opponent inside kick range; hence the focus on developing kicking ability, Jujitsu and other grappling arts is to shoot past other ranges into clinch/grappling range, and Wing Chun's is in-fighting range (I call it this, it is a blend of kick, punch and elbow ranges). Other traditional arts usually focus there strategy in one or a few ranges (kick, punch, elbow, clinch, ground), but most do not address all ranges.

That being said, IMO it is wise to add at least a study of grappling to your training to understand how to employ you WC kung fu (note: literal translation) against it and to understand grappling's usefulness.

Know thy enemy.....so to speak.

[anerlich]

As I think Rene or KWJ, or was it Merryprankster, said, Wing Chun grappling is about as good as BJJ striking.

Know thy enemy

Or better yet, befriend them and learn from them.

[AmanuJRY]

The idea of befriending one's enemy is an oxymoron that would create an infinate loop and crash my system, were I to try to concieve it.

But learning from one's enemy......I have posted before that your enemy can teach you the most profound lessons.

[anerlich]

Bad phrasing on my part.

My point is, why see grapplers as your enemy? I've met some top people and great martial artists amongst "the enemy" since my academy became a BJJ affiliate.

I'm not suggesting changing sides, I'm suggesting that the taking of sides at all is the wrong way to look at it.

The bad guys are the criminals on the street, not people who train a different MA from you.

[namron]

Quote:"I'd rather learn Iron Palm, at least with this I can hit you anywhere on your body, at any time of the day/season, from inches away from your body and seriously hurt you or kill you."

Theres a kettle of fish if I ever seen one!

Never been big on the death touch iron palm connection. I've found it good for improving striking/blocking power, although so it should if you spent an hour a day, every day developing that degree of conditioning as well as wrist and elbow co-ordination by hitting the sandbag.

Grappling is another phase of combat that IMO is important to have a knowledge base in.

That having been said i personally have a lot of growing to do in these areas, but to date I've found Clinch work and ground work are great fun are a great work out in addition to being a good study on ranges.

In past I've seen alot of contact sparing or chi-sau clash with forward energy and turn into a woeful wrestle, myself included. The magic in the grappling is the familiarity with a different range from which a branch of options sprouts. (i.e. control the fight in the standing phase, or take it to the ground).

As for small joint manipulation in particular wrist holds IMO they can be a risky option in the standing position and then once applied often need finishing locks if you wish to fully restrain someone. Personally I have found only a handleful of Aikido locks are direct enough for use on a resisting opponent.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by sihing
Wing Chun Does not "concentrate" on Grappling, but it shouldn't ignore it since it is all already in the system, just not done the same way as other styles or specific systems of grappling, and since just for the fact that there are and will be more and more grapplers out there we as WC players should look at that range and know how to deal with it. As for Chin-na(which in my mind means joint-locks, pressure point manipulation, more passive techniques), again it is all in the system, we use it all the time in class, but it is one of those things that is hard to actually apply in real life, you can't make it happen(unless your really skilled at it like Aikido/Jujitsu masters). I advise the students that these types of things have to be applied at the right moment, when the opportunity arise for it to work effectively. Dim-Mak, "the death touch",Sihing

dimmak as a style is a genric term..........to have your dimmak and be able to apply it to another base style ( like me and my aikido.......even though not a master) is probably how it evolves to here in china interperate as chin na........coi-incincidently its' oriniginal form ...........lol...........yes I am surmising and all I have is logic and facts to support it.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Wing Chun does not have any grappling, traditionally at least (not that I have seen anyway).

To understand why this is you must understand strategy in martial arts. Every art has it's 'base' strategy, TKD's is to keep your opponent inside kick range; hence the focus on developing kicking ability, Jujitsu and other grappling arts is to shoot past other ranges into clinch/grappling range, and Wing Chun's is in-fighting range .

and as we all know, in-fighting range and grappling are clearly extremely different ...........


on small joint maipulation , chin na not neccesarily exclusive to this...........


on iron palm vs dimmak.........iron body vs irom palm + dimmak = strike proof torso and freedom to defend elsewhere;

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
Bad phrasing on my part.

My point is, why see grapplers as your enemy? I've met some top people and great martial artists amongst "the enemy" since my academy became a BJJ affiliate.

I'm not suggesting changing sides, I'm suggesting that the taking of sides at all is the wrong way to look at it.

The bad guys are the criminals on the street, not people who train a different MA from you.

Bad phrasing on my part as well, I guess.....

I don't mean to suggest that grapplers are the enemy, just that there is a good chance that one of the 'bad guys' may know a thing or two about some sort of grappling art.....be it BJJ or high school wrestling.

I think there is a standing belief that grapplers are WCers enemy, because grapplers have given WCers the biggest challenge to their ability. Many people get jealous, mad or otherwise upset at this and relate to them as foe, but this is just not true. People are people, regardless of art, social or religeous affiliation.

[Vajramusti]

Grappling at Wing Chun?????
Lets talk Wc and grappling, throws, locks, holds and takedowns..............
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Blooming Lotus- if you check past posts and archives I think that you will find lots of discussions on this/these topic(s).

[FooFighter]

"The bad guys are the criminals on the street, not people who train a different MA from you."

Excellent quote. I will borrow it and of course mentioned the author. This an good quote for mo duk.

[AmanuJRY]

Here is a question that I have not seen posted on any thread regarding this topic (at least none I have read).

Why did the 'creator(s)' of WC not include any kind of grappling in the original system?

As Victor said, 'good WC doesn't need grappling', yet we all agree that a knowledge of it is imperetive, why didn't the 'creator(s)' see this stream of logic?

Surely, several forms of grappling existed during the time of it's creation.

[Ultimatewingchun]

AmanuJRY...about this:

"Why did the 'creator(s)' of WC not include any kind of grappling in the original system?

As Victor said, 'good WC doesn't need grappling', yet we all agree that a knowledge of it is imperetive, why didn't the 'creator(s)' see this stream of logic?

Surely, several forms of grappling existed during the time of it's creation."

I was being quite ironic with my remark...for although there is a limited amount of chin na in Wing Chun - and some very good standing grappling that features armlocks and throws within the Weng Chun system...

the fact is...grappling IS missing from Wing Chun...and I myself have started many threads in the not-too-distant past about the importance of grappling...and specifically - why I think it is essential to add grappling to one's fighting arsenal of weapons.

I am an advocate/student/teacher of Catch-as-Catch-can Wrestling...as a matter of fact.

And one of the reasons for my enthusiasm for wrestling has already been mentioned by namron in his good post:

"Clinch work and ground work are great fun are a great work out in addition to being a good study on ranges.

In past I've seen alot of contact sparing or chi-sau clash with forward energy and turn into a woeful wrestle, myself included. The magic in the grappling is the familiarity with a different range from which a branch of options sprouts. (i.e. control the fight in the standing phase, or take it to the ground).

As for small joint manipulation in particular wrist holds IMO they can be a risky option in the standing position and then once applied often need finishing locks if you wish to fully restrain someone. Personally I have found only a handleful of Aikido locks are direct enough for use on a resisting opponent."

Reality can easily lead even the best Wing Chun fighters into a standing clinch situation - at which point knowing how to grapple from both standing (locks, throws, sweeps and takedowns) - and ground-grappling is absolutely essential, IMO.

That said...Wing Chun (especially longer range strategies and techniques)...can provide some anti-grappling maneuvers against being grabbed or thrown...but IMO...THIS IS NOT ENOUGH.

Such manuevers (including wrist/arm/elbow/shoulder locks) should be a PART of the strategy - not the end all and be all - simply because it's IMPOSSIBLE to ALWAYS keep a good grappler or clinch fighter (ie.-Muay Thai)...out of the grappling range they want to secure...

hence the need to also know grappling yourself.