Some confusion on deadly vs sport

[red5angel]

I have been thinking about this problem, where kungfu guys claim their art is too deadly to put into the ring. Then you get the retort from others that if your good or it's good enuogh you can modify it to work in the ring. I can agree with that statement.

However, would I be correct in saying that since most kungfu schools don't teach the sportive aspects of the martial arts, that in fact quite a bit of what you learn is not apropriate for the ring? I was wrestling around with my wife the other day and it led to this conversation (yes that's right, when your married sometimes wrestling around only leads to conversation) about how there is a lot that I know about how to defend myself but when wrestling around for play, there is a lot I can't use for obvious reasons.
Of course if I wanted to kick my wifes ass everytime I could get more serious about BJJ and then use those submission techniques on her.
So, is there some truth in what these guys say? I know we all cringe when we here the "too deadly" label, but seriously, am I way off here?

[Chang Style Novice]

Sport, by definition, has rules and is made to be basically safe for the participants.

Sport, also by definition, is competitive and encourages the participants to work and train as hard as possible to win, and also generally provides plenty of opportunities to do so, and as we all know practice makes perfect.

MA for self defense does include dirty tricks inapporpriate for sport, but obviously you can't practice them the way you can techs that are appropriate for sport, therefore they will not be practiced to perfection the way the sport techs will (or can be.)

Can we close the thread now?

[Water Dragon]

Here's how I look at it Red. You can take the sport aspects, not train the "deadly" aspects, and be able to fight.

You can train the sports aspects, the train the "deadly" aspects as modifications to the sports aspects, and be able to do some really nasty things to people.

If you try to learn the "deadly" part without the sport part, it's not gonna work.

Example: Outside shoulder throw while grabbing the bicep = safe. Practice the throw a few thousand times, use it in sparring. Now you have the technique. Switch your grip to the forearm and you will break the arm on the throw.

Just practice setting up the grip on the forearm and you will never get the throw, which means you wont get the break. Why? You never made the technique "yours"

[Chang Style Novice]

Heh, apparently not. And just as well, 'cause those are good points you guys make.

[red5angel]

WD for the most part I agree with you. I don't know about training some of those "deadly" techniques for sport, some sure but not all.
I do however agree that someone who trains in TMA could definitely.

Is the argument just about a difference in training? I have no doubt that most sport types are tough as nails and could take me 9 times out of 10 no matter what thye are training because they have other things I don't, not just skill.

[truewrestler]

If you don't train to fight you will not be able to fight. It is just like flying a plane, playing baseball, building a house, etc. You don't wait till you have to do it to find out whether you can or not. You learn from practice and epecially from experience. There is no subsistute for performing a move countless times against an opponent who is trying to do the same to you in sparring/competition.

Sure there are things that should be learned outside of sparrring but if you can't even fight in a controlled environment, how do you expect to be able to fight in an uncontrolled environment.

[red5angel]

truewrestler, this is all pretty common sense, atleast most of us can sensibly admit that yes sparring goes along way as well as drilling.

[Water Dragon]

Red, it's all about developing a solid base. Making dsure your basics are down before you worry about the advanced stuff. If your BASICS (punch, kick, lock, throw) stink, how do you expect advanced stuff to work.

Read this article Red:

http://www.chung-hua.com/legends15.htm

[Judge Pen]

From what I'm reading it seems that every person who does not fight competitively respects the abilities of those that do. It doesn't mean that those who train hard and spar often (just not in the competitive environment) cannot defend themselves in an uncontrolled environment. It simply means that those who do not compete will probably not be able to defend themselves against a "trained fighter." So what? I don't have the time to train THAT way and I'll play the odds that a mugger or whatever doesn't either.

[red5angel]

WD, I am going to read the article now but I agree with you, it's all about the basics, can't have a house without a foundation. That's why some KF guys end up looking like boxers or muy thai guys in the ring, the basics are all essentiall the same, most of them don't train those advanced skills at higher levels as much as they should so they fall to basics.


edit: good article WD, I agree whole heartedly. I also feel that most KF guys don't train hard enough, meaning that most are hobbyists and even those who claim not to be most often neglect some important factors like working on strength and endurance.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Most traditional martial artists dismiss the very idea of a combat sport. Their claim is typically that in a real fight all means must be used to attack the enemy. Sporting competition develops poor habits for combat since it is bound by a set of rules. Traditional martial arts thus emphasize a large number of techniques that could never be made part of a safe sporting match - techniques such as eye-gouging, biting, groin attacks etc. etc. The emphasis on such hazardous technique makes live sparring and sport competition impossible.

The only alternative is to practice this kind of technique in a thoroughly artificial manner - by the use of repetitive forms, kata, imagination, no-contact "sparring," etc. The obvious problem with this approach is that students never get the opportunity to perform their techniques in the same manner in which they will do so in actual combat. The result is that they are no more experienced in the actual application of these techniques under the stress of combat conditions than anybody else.

How then, can they be expected to do well in the chaos and stress of a real fight? Imagine if a football coach attempted to train a team along analogous principles. He insisted that all training sessions involve no contact. Players were not allowed to run at full speed, nor could they engage in open play, but had to stop at the completion of each move. Essentially they would be training in a kind of slow motion, stop start, touch football. How could such a team hope to make the jump to a full power competitive game against a rival who trained in the normal manner? Yet this is very nearly what the traditional martial arts prescribes as its training methods to thousands of willing adherents.

All too often the unfortunate result is a student who has a grossly inflated sense of his or her combat readiness. When the shock and confusion of real combat is sprung upon them the result is almost always failure. Contrast this with the case of combat sports. By combat sports I mean those fighting styles whose nature is most closely associated with open sporting competition and which have an obvious combative heritage in so far as they involve the battle for physical domination over an opponent. This is made possible by the removal of hazardous technique that would make the sport unacceptably risky. So for example, Olympic wrestling is a classic combat sport. It has a set of restrictions on which techniques are legal and which are not.

One's initial reaction to the notion of a combat sport is that they are merely watered down martial arts. They are martial arts minus the really deadly techniques. As such they would appear almost by definition to be less effective in combat than a "true" martial art. This is in fact, a very naïve assumption. The removal of dangerous technique makes possible the use of full-power, live training (sparring) with the techniques that remain. This has an immensely beneficial result. It allows students to train in almost the same way they fight.

The importance of this point cannot be overemphasized. An axiom of the martial arts is this. The way you train is the way you fight. This simple point is very important. The successful application of a combat technique under combat conditions requires much more than a theoretical knowledge of that technique. In addition to knowledge of the technique itself, the student must possess a set of attributes that allow him or her to successfully apply the technique. Without the possession of these attributes the technique is very unlikely to succeed.

Attributes such as adequate strength and physical conditioning, speed, timing, presence of mind, body sensitivity, balance etc. etc. are necessary prerequisites to the application of a combat technique. The development of these attributes comes only from live training and sparring. This explains how a student of traditional martial arts whose training is limited to kata and cooperative training partners can never gain anything more than a superficial knowledge of a given technique. They know what the technique is supposed to look like, but they lack the necessary attributes to apply it under combat conditions.

Their understanding of the technique never progresses beyond the look of the technique and never passes into the feel of it. In this way can we explain the irony of the fact that combat sports that prohibit so much technique can be far more combat effective than "deadly" traditional martial arts that emphasize apparently dangerous techniques but never give the students the chance to practice them live.

The essential difference between the combat sports and traditional martial arts is that the latter emphasize technique alone, while the former emphasize the attributes required to apply the techniques they retain. Combat sports can do this successfully because they prohibit the techniques that make live training in the form of sparring and sporting competition impossible. This realization that success in combat requires far more than the memorization of the appearance of various techniques, but also involves the development of bodily and mental attributes that allow a student to apply these techniques in a real fight, is the key to understanding the success of combat sports. Consider the most well known combat sports - Brazilian jiu jitsu, judo, wrestling, sambo, shooto, San Shou , Western boxing and Muay Thai.

So then, in answer to our question as to which styles are those most effective we can reply that it is those that are combat sports. These allow students to train at something close to full power with the same techniques and strategy that they will use in real combat. As such they develop not just the superficial knowledge of the appearance of a given technique, but also the essential attributes and skills that enable a student to apply that technique in actual combat

-John Danaher

[lkfmdc]

Danaher mentioned San Shou, I'll have to send him a fruit basket....

[red5angel]

ST00 - I don't buy into having to use a technique on a resisting opponent for it to work. I think that is a lame attempt by "reality" and sport fighters to discredit those sorts of techniques. Put it this way, I have never used an eye poke against a resisting opponent until two weekends ago. Up til then it was all shadow boxing or dummy work. A freind of mine put on some goggles and we sparred and I have to say I did alright. So that BS doesn't fly with me.

[ShifuBinks]

Well my only problem with this whole thing is when you get cats that I feel are insinuating that competition is almost unethical or not something that a true martial artist would desire...to steal a quote from another forum I use to post on "An internal master has the same interest in competing as a shaolin monk does in night clubbing" or some such BS...now obviously this would mean that the master is VERY interested in competing, but of course this isn't what the dude meant. He assumed no master would have any interest in competition just because he himself doesn't have the balls for it....TOOLBOX! I apologize for my attitude but this has me really ticked off!

[ShaolinTiger00]

David,

The article from which it came:
http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html



however he forgot to mention us in this one:
http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jdanaherframe.html

Danaher is great. I'm reading "Mastering Jujutsu" right now! excellent book in the subject of mma and reality fighting (I should say "brawling" and not a fight for you life combative sense)

Red, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not expecting to change anybody's mind here.. I'm just showing you where my rationale (and others who think along the same lines) comes from.