Question for the Chinese speking guys on the board

[Royal Dragon]

So San Pan is the "Three plates" from, and it is for eating cake??

That would explain at least one of the move in it!!!

The set in question is suposed to be the Chinese root to the Japanese form Sam Chien, the dynamic tension set

It went form Shouthern Tai Tzu - Ngo Chor - Japan

[Royal Dragon]

Sorry about the spelling, this key board is a bit on the small side?

I think the tape was originally a Taiwanese TV special, but one of my contacts sent me a version with an American translation.


I can get the Chinese version, but I can't understand it, me being monolingual (at best) and all.

I actually know the name of the set from my Sifu. San Zhen is just called "Three Battles" on the tape.

San Pan is another set, supposedly the last of the 6 sets in the Southern system. I have not seen it, but it is suposedly a two man set.

The tape mentions the set "Three Tangles", and I am wondering if it is the same set as San Pan or not.

The names of the entire Southern style in order, as I understand are

1 San Zhen
2 Four Doors
3 Cutting Slice (I "Think" I know this one)
4 Whipping Slice
5 Yi Lu
6 San Pan

There are suposedly 2 more "Closed door" sets, but I only know one person who claims to know them, and it will require me to meet and train with him in person, learning the whole system one step at a time first, he's in China, I'm in Chicago, so it's going to be quite a wile.

The video I have shows 4 Southern sets, but I can only name the first two.

SanZhen is obvious
the next one is 4 Doors.

The next two sets are in question.

The third could be could be Cutting Slice, or Whipping Slice

I have no real clue as to the name of the 4th set, but it has been sugjested to me that it is Cutting Slice, BUT, the 3rd set has been sugjested as being Cuttitng slice too. Both sets have been refered to as Whipping Slice as well.

Since the confusion, I have no Ideeeaa what is right. The 4th set on the tape was called Yi Lu by one of my sources, but he changed his mind later and said it was Cutting Slice instead and the 3rd set was whipping slice. The tape itself is "Talking" about "One Pattern" (Yi Lu?) when the set is beng shown, but it was also talking about 4 doors when the set that could be either Cutting Slice, or Whipping slice was being shown.

The funny thing, is I have a number of Tai tzu sets documented on video, but not the names of them. One video states three sets as being Tai Tzu, list some history and everything, but then just calls the sets Chang Chuan 1-2-3 respectively.

Anyway, I didn't mean to diverge into my massive world of Tai tzu confusion, right now, I'm just trying to figure out what San Pan means.

[SevenStar]

I was always told that yi lu means "first method"

[Royal Dragon]

I was always told it meant "First form"

I guess that the Southern Yi Lu was the first form created for the system??

I don't know, but the first 3 forms are little more than small drills done over and over again in multiple directions.

San Zhen, is really 3 small sections of about 12 moves each.

4 doors is like the same 9-12 moves repeated in 4 directions, and the third from is not much more complicated (Not fully sure what the name of that one is)

If you strung them all together, you would really have just enough moves for one full form.

I hear the 4th form is just as simple. Yi Lu is suposed to be the first real full sized form from the system, and San Pan is suposded to be the twoman set.

There really is not much to the Southern Tai Tzu. It's a simple, direct styles that uses good footwork to enter and fast, brutal, direct hand strikes and maybe a throw to finnish, after you smash thier face with your knee or something equally as brutal. The only Kick I have seen it it is a waist high front sanp kick. There are a few Chi Na's too, but not many.

Of course, I have not seen all the forms, Yi Lu may have quite a bit more. But the first 4 sets are just "Caveman" simple.

It's a good first style, and great for developing fundementals and body structure though. Especially if you added the Da Mo Shaolin Chi Kung systems to it (18 Louhan hands, Yi Jin Jing, and Sue xue jing).

I think it would be a great style for a body builder as it's appears compact.

One technique simply steps up and whallops'em in the head followed by grabbing the head and smashing it with your knee and pushing them aside. The simplicity is beautiful.

[prana]

yi lu or I pronounce it "Ee Lhu" = 1 road

Dunno if that is the actual words used, but if so, it would explain the "first road" or "unified/singular road" translation.

[GeneChing]

It's really hard to solve these without context, tones or characters. But for future reference, here's our glossary .

[Chowmein]

Hi,
The Southern Tai Tzu Quan on my line is,
1. Three Fights (battles).
2. Four Corners (doors).
3. Whipping Slice (Chopping Slice).
4. Cutting Slice.
5. San Pam (three tangles).
6. Yi Lu (first pattern).

The San Pam form is a two person set in three sections. The Yi Lu form is very long (about 200 moves) and carries the essence of the southern Tai Tzu, I have not seen many lines with this form. I have seen my Sifu do this form many times. The last three forms are considered more extavagant in content and performance and are sometimes not taught.

Regards.

[omarthefish]

A quick glance at my Xinhua Dictionary, reveals no less than 20 characters with the official phonetic spelling 'pan'. In a gong-fu context, however, the choice of the character 'pan' with the second tone which means 'plate' is probably a good bet. A single character out of context has vague meaning. Many Characters do not actually represent complete words. 2 Characters together will have a much more definate meaning than one standing alone.

A couple guys have already suggested 'planes/levels'. Excellent choice! This sounds right to me. It's the same character as 'plate'. 'Pan' basically means just a kind of round flat thingee like a plate or a record or a CD or a geometric plane in space. It all depends on the usage. Also, this character is used in the naming of lots of moves in other styles and it's easy to imagine a form which explores motion thruogh three 'levels'. Upper, middle, lower? X Y and Z planes of 3 dimensional space?

'Three tangles' sounds like classic Chenglish to me. Someone with poor english and a good dictionary. This is the phenomenom that leads to signs on the WC (watercloset not Wing Chun) doors that say ,"please do not use WC when train is stabling "

I'm wondering if the 'tangles' actually mean confusions or maybe 'chaos'. I tried looking up 'tangle' in my computer translator and I got 'hun luan'. 'hun' (ȓ)singly could be tranlated as "get along with, goof, mix, confuse, muddle along or pass for"

Good luck guys.

[omarthefish]

p.s. 'hun' when combined with the word for egg 'dan' as in 'hundan' literally 'muddled egg' is a swear word in Chinese roughly equivalent in intensity to 'b@stard' in English.

[prana]

Originally posted by omarthefish
p.s. 'hun' when combined with the word for egg 'dan' as in 'hundan' literally 'muddled egg' is a swear word in Chinese roughly equivalent in intensity to 'b@stard' in English.

you mean like "Pen Dan" ?!

[Royal Dragon]

Chowmein,

Hi, I only have two sets from Sifu Livingston. The other two I have are from another source

I am missing the Yi Lu, and San Pan.

The problem, is I am not sure exactly which forms, are which, from the tape I have. They may not even be Southern Tai Tzu for all I know (I doubt that though). I haven't confirmed the sets from a number of independant sources yet, only Jamie. I have multiple independant confirmation on the first two sets though.

Anyway, from talking to your Sifu, it looks like I have Whipping/chopping slice, AND Cutting slice.

I would really like to get some video footage of Yi Lu, and San Pan

At least that way, I would have one complete Tai Tzu system fully documented.

As far as the Northern, I have Yi Lu, Er lu. These could be either Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, or Tai Tzu Hong Chuan (it's starting to look like they are two different styles with the same root). I have contacs in both styles, but I can't get video from the one, so I can't compare the sets to see how close they are. They could be different, or the same. I won't know till I compare the footage, or learn the sets I'm missing in person (something I'm dying to do BTW).

I have 3 forms called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. One is the Shaolin 32 move form, and the other I believe is the form actually called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the third is the Ming dynasty Tai Tzu form of the late Master Liu Yun Chiao. I believe this is the internal tai tzu set. It is exactly 72 moves by my count. I'm pretty sure I have the whole set, but there might be more as it is rummured to be 300+ moves long. It is practiced slowly, like a Tai Chi, and does seem to have internal mechanics in some area's, perticularly Open/Close.

I have 3 more sets that Jamie identified as being

Butterfly Palms

Shou Hong Chuan

Da Hong Chuan

I have three more on top of that, but they are unnamed, and MY source aquired them from a questionable source. They could be Tai tzu (They do look like it), or they could just be some long fist sets "Called" Tai Tzu, I don't know yet. I will be sending them out to my contacts in the comming months to see everyone's opinion of the sets, and hopefully get the names of them. They may be one long set broken into 3 sections too, I just don't know at this point. Time will tell.

In addition to that, I now have 4 sets, from one more line, that descends from the Sung dynastys Imperial guard. Looks like the Northern Tai Tzu, but done with Southern mechanics, very cool.

I'm slowly piecing this whole thing together, one litte bit at a time.

I can't wait till Gene's artical on the Tai Tzu /Hong chuan relationship to come out. I'm hoping it will show me where at least one piece of the puzzle lies, if not show me where to put it.

So the consensus is San Pan means Three Plates, or Three Levels?? Could "Tangles" and "Levels" mean the same thing in some sort of twisted bad language translation kind of way??

[Royal Dragon]

I'm wondering if the 'tangles' actually mean confusions or maybe 'chaos'

Reply]

I took it to mean the "Tangling" of string, or arms maybe. Possibly the tangling of arms to mean a twoman set?? San Pan is suposed to be a two man set.

Could Pan mean "Intertwine", Or "Cross", like in the "Crossing" of hands maybe?

[Chowmein]

Hi,
Tangling does refer to the hands in the two man set.
You are right about the forms on the video, I have just started the Cutting Slice form which is the fourth form. It moves pretty much like the monkey style, but you can see the Tai Tzu mechanics. I have seen the Yi Lu performed by my Sifu and I have seen an identical Yi Lu performed by Sifu Tong in Taiwan when I was there in November. My Sifu and Sifu Tong are of the same lineage but I know that there is other forms of the southern Yi Lu.
I have seen many variations of the Northern Hong Quan and some are very different, some will have a different flavor (like crane), some will be performed in low posture and some in high. To say which one is right is impossible. We have a slight monkey flavor, which you can really see in our southern Tai Tzu.
My next form is San Pam, but that could take ages for me to get to it, Sifu is pretty strict when it comes to learning a form. I spent nine months on San Zhan before he would let me anywhere near Four Corners.
I am training with the seniors tomorrow so I'll ask them about the Three Tangles and see what they say.
Regards

[Royal Dragon]

Hi,
Tangling does refer to the hands in the two man set.
You are right about the forms on the video, I have just started the Cutting Slice form which is the fourth form.

Reply]
He he he he, me too.

>It moves pretty much like the monkey style, but you can see the Tai Tzu mechanics.

Reply]
Yeah, I though it was a monkey set at first myself. I have 3 Monkey sets documented now. One is a whushuised version of a Northern set (Done specifically for public competitions), and the other two are the Southern. The first one looks like the Southern monkey's version of the San Zhen, and the other just looks like a monkey rolling around. Some of the footwork is very reminisant of the Kun Tao I had been working on.

I have seen the Yi Lu performed by my Sifu and I have seen an identical Yi Lu performed by Sifu Tong in Taiwan when I was there in November. My Sifu and Sifu Tong are of the same lineage but I know that there is other forms of the southern Yi Lu.

Reply]
See, I am the most interested in this set, as it is the heart of the Southern Tai Tzu. I would really love to get it from at least 3 seperate and unconnected lines just so I could compare them. Of course it would do me little good without the history of those lines as I am trying to trace the evolution of the style and how it has branched out over time in the process. Researching this this stuff is almost as much fun as doing it.


>I have seen many variations of the Northern Hong Quan and some are very different, some will have a different flavor (like crane), some will be performed in low posture and some in high. To say which one is right is impossible.

Reply]
The answere is: They are all right. I mean, so long as your not teaching Taiji, Hsing I, Bagua or some other well known art and "Calling" it Tai Tzu that is.

>We have a slight monkey flavor, which you can really see in our southern Tai Tzu.

Reply]
Your not the only one. The Monkey seems to have been a major influance on the styles. You see it over and over again in all branches.


>My next form is San Pam, but that could take ages for me to get to it, Sifu is pretty strict when it comes to learning a form.

Reply]
Hmmm, I would love to get that on video, just to document it if I could. Jamie told me he originally learned it as two seperate open hand sets. Then later he was taught how to put them together.

>I spent nine months on San Zhan before he would let me anywhere near Four Corners.

Although I learned San Zhen first, and 4 corners mcuh later, I actually did San Zhen and four corners back to back. I would do one one day, and the other the next, and switch off like that. Sifu livingston taught them to me spaced apart, but after my back injury, I did just the Taiji Quan commonly taught by the Chao fmaily, so by the time I got 4 corners, I hadn't really done the San Zhen all that much in quite a wile, and needed to re do that set. In my case, it worked out good becasue by the time I started actually working it seriously again, I had found a guy to help me with my mechancics here. That prevented me from training to many mistakes into my nervous system.

>I am training with the seniors tomorrow so I'll ask them about the Three Tangles and see what they say.
Regards

Reply]
Yeh, I would like to hear the expanation on the translation. I have seen it more commonly spelled San Pan, but you guys are spelling it "San Pam". Normally I don't take too much stock in the english spelling, because it's really open to personal interpratation, but in this case, i'd like know if there is a significance.

The fact that it is suposed to be taught in three sections, could mean Pan= Levels. That makes quite a bit of sense to me. Maybe it is like Whipping Slice, where it has several names depending on the lineage.

Anyone know how we would say Three Tangles in Manderan, and Cantonese? (Tangles refering to the entwining of arms in a twoman set)

[GeneChing]

The Taizu/Hung men piece will be out in our next issue, on stands in April.