Not as civil as you think you are?

[red5angel]

I have given this subject a lot of thought since I started my martial training a while back. I have posted once or twice in one form or another on this subject but here is my personal take on it.

Someone, I think it was Willow Sword had a post about a guy in a theater with a cell phone and a confrontation that took place afterwards.
My honest to go take on this is that the guy is a dumb ass, at best, thoughtless and disrespectful at worst, and in either case if he wants to get in my face for it, I don't mind knocking his ass around a little.

I don't consider myself an unecassarily violent person. Some of you have heard my feelings on abusing spouses, children or those weaker then you. But in my opinion if you are asking for it, I don't mind giving it to you.
I have always been this way, a few years back I almost went to jail for chasing this guy around the parking lot of a Perkins because I found out he had hit two of my friends he dated. I didn't go to jail, and it turns out, he wised up and straightened up so I got lucky.
I like to consider myself a civilized human being and like I said, I don't consider myself unnecassarily violent, but it turns out what I consider necessary appears to be much less then most people. For instance, you get in my face because I told you to turn your cell phone off in the theater, I might just give you what I feel you are asking for, a fight. If you were to come to me afterwards and say, hey, that was pretty rude the way you asked me to turn my phone off, I have no problem, I can even apologize. But if your in my face asking if I have a problem, then no, because now you have the problem.
I'm am by no means trying to sound like a tough guy, I get my ass beat daily at my martial arts school and I am pretty aware of my limitations, but sometimes the effects of my actions, especially when pertaining to me, don't necessarily concern me as much as they concern other people.

Now as it pretains to the martial arts, since I started training I have come to feel that because of my training, I have a higher responsibility to reign myself in, because I have the greater potential for causing more damage then before I was training. this I suppose is a good thing, except that I still feel the way I always have, I still feel if you are asking for a beat down, then I don't mind obliging you.

So what do you guys and gals think? Am I a psycho? I would be careful how you answer that question....ok just kidding, be honest....




Also, for ewallace and CSN, heh, notice my strategic use of censored words with no ill effects thanks guys

[Sharp Phil]

I think there is a difference between being "unnecessarily violent" and being assertive -- standing up for yourself and refusing to take grief needlessly from those who have no call giving it to you.

[ewallace]

I kind of have mixed feelings on this subject. I used to want to teach others a lesson when I felt they could benefit from it. Physically educating someone as to why they should not be a dumb ass anymore is not always effective. Plus there is more of those types than my hands can bare. It's been a very difficult lesson to swallow, especially when driving, but for your health, blood-pressure and stress level, it's best to learn to let those kinds of things go.

Then there is the always possible subject that the skinny little dude that you told to shut up waits about 45 minutes, then creeps up the row of seats behind you in the movie theatre and stabs you in the neck.

In addition, kindness can be a more effective solution, initially. Many years ago I was at a gas station filling up my car. I had the stereo up kind of loud, and some guy (about 40 or so) walks up and says "Would you turn that shit down?" Well my response to him was "Fuck you sir. Had you asked nicely I would have been more than happy to turn it down. But since you had to be a ***** about it I will turn it up just a bit", and I turned the volume up for his listening pleasure. Had he just asked nicely, I would have turned it down and not thought twice about it.

[red5angel]

Good points EW. I agree with most of them. I am not necessarily looking to educate through pugilation necessarily, especially fixing someones issues so much as willing to step up when one is practically begging me to beat them into the dirt.
I also agree with your kindness theory, it always seems to work fairly well, and in general if someone is using common sense and has just made a mistake in my view, then that is what I tend to use.
But, for example, the kid in the theater. It's pretty much common sense in my view that I don't want to hear you have a conversation over the phone during the movie I just paid 7$ for and came to enjoy. Common sense tells me if it's that important, the phone should be on silent ring and when you recieve your important call you step out of the theater.
Ironically talking to you guys on thsi forum periodically has helped me to develop a better attitude as well.

[yenhoi]

Two words: kick ass often.

I dont remember what I was reading, some historical website about ancient CMA times, bleh. People with martial skills had a special name, they were given it because the other peeps at the time were not always happy about the martial artist's use of force to determine conflicts.

Certainly, no matter why you thought it necessary, starting a fight in a movie theater is bad taste. Firstly, you shouldent be yelling at people in a public movie theater, regardless of your $4 or $7. Secondly, if you decide to take action, then take it, none of this half-assed navy ****. Of course every scenario is different. Yelling at someone in a theater does nothing except possibly create another situtation later.

Personally, in a theatre, if someone answered a cell phone and was talking on it, I would take a seat next to them, and shut off their phone, then sit next to them for the rest of the flick. Most likely this wont go well, he will either start a fight now, in a little bit, or after the movie. If he wasent having a conversation, I dont think a little cell phone annoyance would be enough to cause me to action.

Sometimes people need to be told to shut the **** up. When you decide to do it, dont just be prepared, act.

Now as it pretains to the martial arts, since I started training I have come to feel that because of my training, I have a higher responsibility to reign myself in, because I have the greater potential for causing more damage then before I was training. this I suppose is a good thing, except that I still feel the way I always have, I still feel if you are asking for a beat down, then I don't mind obliging you.

Your martial arts training also makes you completly responsible for the physical conflict. Your training gives you the option of fighting, random ass people can blame: you, their brain chemicals, human tribal response, small ****, and too much or too little sugar.

[GLW]

What you have hit upon is a part of Wu De - Martial Ethics or Chivalry.

In the example given... A jerk taking a cell phone call during a movie.

This is not too different from a person talking during a movie...

Saying "Hey, A$$hole, shut the F*** up " even if said in a whisper is not likely to win friends and influence people.

There ARE ways to say it and be assertive but not confrontational.

"Excuse me, would you please take the cell phone call out of the theater." Is pretty much assertive but not a challenge.

If the person chooses to take it as a challenge, you can rightly say that you asked nicely first.

One of the things you can get from training is a calmness and a desire to avoid confrontations....while still being able to assert yourself.

An example....

While teaching my class in a gym, a member came in and walked through the class to use a mirror and admire himself.

I asked in a quiet tone to leave the room because I had a class going on. He was rude. I repeated the request with a statement that we were working with weapons and I could only insure the safety of those actually in my class. He ignored me...

I stopped the class and instructed everyone to watch him as he primped and puffed his muscles.

He got upset and walked out of the room...leaving the door open and shouting insults in.

I ignored him...He was gone...I got what I wanted.

Then he got a friend and started the same thing....insults...

I had my class switch to staff...two man drills. They were not doing it fast enough or with enough power...So...to benefit my class and the jerk, I did a round with each student driving them back - but controlled. The student got the feel of what to do...a subtle message was sent to the jerk...

They disappeared. I then reported the member to the management for them to do their job.

At no time did I have to threaten him or raise my voice....but I was assertive. Had he come back into the classroom and challenged me or taking aswing at me...he would have had a major problem...but that was a choice he was going to have to make.

All that matters is you get what you want...not that you get your ego taken care of. This is a lesson from Kung Fu training and from Taijiquan.

[red5angel]

yenhoi, I agree strating a fight IN a theater is tasteless and I paid good money, dragging his ass out into the parking lot after however....

GLW, good points on being nice, but that is the crux of the issue, I have an issue sometimes with wanting to be nice. In this case the theater, the guy was being thoughtless and an ass. I asked him to in the way I saw fit and if the repercussions were he wanted to fight me afterwards, that was ok by me.

I can restrain myself pretty easily, for instance my seasonal job recquires I deal with drunks and beligerants on a regular occasion with no issues.

[GLW]

Red5,

although I CAN sympathize with your annoyance....

Two wrongs can never make a right.

The jerk's behaviour in no ways justifies you acting in a rude manner. This is one of the core ideas in Wu De...your manners and ethics are unaffected by those around you ...and then if you must act, you are acting from a totally justified standpoint.

The most it ever cost you trying to be nice FIRST is a few seconds. The jerk may still act like an a$$...but you gave him the benefit of the doubt. In a cop's eyes, speaking as you did, you would both be at fault and probably both get hauled off. If you had been polite, the jerk had been a jerk, and you had witnesses, you would have been asked questions and walked away... You may have still had to hurt him...but you would not have had people standing in front of a cop telling him how you provoked it too.

Case in point...

I college a female friend of mine was studying in the library. A strange man came and sat at her table. She continued studying...but she noticed something was strange. She looked and noticed the man had himself exposed under the table and was playing with himself.

She COULD have gotten scared, been rude, screamed, or many other things...

Instead, she looked him in the eyes...NO LOWER...and said "I am trying to study. Would you please NOT do that here."

The man got embarrassed (go figure) and then got up and left. She then went and reported him to security.

She came off cool...didn't play into his game...and got him to leave without a scene.

The man WAS arrested a few minutes later.

[red5angel]

GLW, I think in that case the man is going to get arrested anyway, however, I get your point, and I understand it.
That's part of what I am talking about, for some reason many people see it that way, your example, two wrongs never make a right, and I understand that and understand what it means and why it means it, but I don't always feel that way.

For instance, a guy who cuts you off on the freeway. There is a good chance the guy does it all the time. Let's say he pulls into the same parking lot as you later on and you have the oppurtunity to say something. What he did is against the law of course but calling the police doesn't really get anything done, really.
Now kicking his a$$ is not necessarily the "right" answer but then I have to ask why not? what do I have to loose by kicking his butt? A few days in jail maybe a fine of some sort possibly?

[Laughing Cow]

Red5.

Good Topic.

Myself I still got a long way to go before I reach the level I set myself.

Wu De IS important in MA and we should always strive to live by it.

Yes, most MA can most prolly kick butt harder and faster than most other people but that doesn't mean that we should do so.

With great skill and strenght comes great responsibility not to abuse/misuse it.
One reason why I am against a lot of the schools out there that teach SD or Sreet effective MA, they often ignore that aspect of the training.

Personally, I like to ask myself if the guy is worth the hassle and time to really get upset about and if I am willing to face the consequences of upsetting him.

If you are calm and confident within, than you can deal with this issues in the appropriate manner.

Use your MA knowledge and training to apply just the right amount of assertivness and intent to get your goal.

For me MA is not just about fighting, but dealing with ANY challenges that Life throws at me and to deal with it in the correct manner to get the best result for all parties concerned.

Just some thoughts.

[rubthebuddha]

hopefully, a few days in the pokee (or was it BEING the pokee) and a fine is enough motivation to not do it.

i think the most difficult reason for this is that so many of us (myself included) don't want to be the nice guy. we see someone being an *******, and the ever-vigilant button in our brain clicks and all of a sudden we're wearing the cape and cowl of moral man and assuming we're the ones who should do something about it. it's a side-effect of our training. we try to be good people, and we encourage it in others, but the second someone deviates from that perfect behavior, we become the moral police.

honestly, fighting someone over a cell phone call in a theatre is worse than childish. talk to the manager, tell them the dumb**** is ruining the movie for you. every time i've done that (three or four times), i got tickets to view the movie again, and the chump got escorted and tossed out on his keester. a whopping one time, the person knew that it was me who complained to the manager and waited outside the theatre. he tried to pick a fight, and i simply said, if you attack me, you will go to jail for first-degree assault for waiting outside a theatre in order to fight someone instead of leaving like you were instructed to." no mention of the fact that i could have clobbered him. didn't need to. i got to watch the movie, and since that date wound up being a moron, i got to take a cuter girl to that movie the next week with the extra tickets i got from the manager. life is good.

think about how many times you're working with your sifu, and he's bashing you good, and you keep trying to be your best, be relaxed and respond in the best way you can. not easy, but we have to relax, else sifu hits us some more. if we can handle sifu smacking us around and still stay relaxed, hopefully we can stay relaxed when someone's too dense to turn their cell off in a theatre.

going to jail because of something petty like this is kinda lame. even rearranging someone's grill for it is lame. save your knuckles for the boners that really deserve it.

[rubthebuddha]

oh, and i agree with the laughing bugger -- great topic, red.

[GLW]

"but I don't always feel that way."

The key word there is FEEL. That is your emotions and your ego talking to you. Understandable...but that is the part of you that you try to conquer through Martial Art Training.


"For instance, a guy who cuts you off on the freeway. There is a good chance the guy does it all the time. Let's say he pulls into the same parking lot as you later on and you have the oppurtunity to say something. What he did is against the law of course but calling the police doesn't really get anything done, really.
Now kicking his a$$ is not necessarily the "right" answer but then I have to ask why not? what do I have to loose by kicking his butt? A few days in jail maybe a fine of some sort possibly?"

What you have to lose...well, lawsuits can be costly. Jail can be a nasty thing. If the bozo has a friend around, it may not go as you expect. If the bozo has a gun or another weapon...it changes suddenly. If the bozo has AIDS..what if you are cut and he is as well...not very likely but the possiblity is there.

What do you have to gain...Well, the only two things I can see are (1) an ego gratification and (2) and opportunity to test out your training.

But, such a thing will not make a difference. You can't give life to those who deserve it. You should be very careful to take it away.

You can't reward everyone for being polite and doing the right thing. Don't be so hasty to play the angel of retribution and punish the bozos.

One key idea that flows throughout all major religions is an idea os cosmic justice. Karma is one word for it. If you believe that there is a reckoning for behaviour, then you really don't have to be there when the bill comes due for a jerk.

Also, the anger is more destructive to you than him. You are letting the external control you. You are placing yourself at risk for the behaviour of another that you don't care about.

Dealing with anger and stress - Qi gong and Taijiquan would help. Also, as you age you hopefully determine that at some point it just is not worth it.

In some ideas, a person has only X number of victories they are given in each life. It is wise to strive to make your victories count for more.

[anerlich]

Red,

GLW is correct.

With the guy who cuts you off on the freeway, you're already assuming you're possibly going to get fined or go to the pokey. As you should - if everyone that got cut off on the street decided to extract "justice" with fists or worse, and this attitude permeated every aspect of life, like someone who tried to jump a queue at McDonalds, civilization would cease to function. Allowing people to settle trivial arguments with violence is not a good idea. Even Dirty Harry (Magnum Force) warned about society getting to the point where people start shooting their neighbours when their dog pi$$es on the lawn.

Your expectation of punishment indicates that at some level you can see that this course of action is the WRONG thing to do.

Defeat is not confined to non-martial artists. As GSW said, you might start it but it might well escalate well beyond your preparation. You might not expect a knife or gunfight when you get in the guy's face, but he might have other ideas. Your eagerness to confront him might make him see you as agressive and belligerent from his POV, and he may feel threatened enough to pull weapons, run you over, whatever.

Conviction for assault might have consequences beyond a few days in jail. You have a criminal record. Depending on jurisdiction, seriousness, etc. this might affect your future in ways you might not have considered. The guy might have some freak anatomical weakness which means your strikes might cause him to collapse, go into a coma, die. How would you (and the DA) feel about that?

Except for LEOs, our rights to redress "crimes" as citizens are quite limited. Our rights to punish "offenders" are zip, that's why we have courts. Institutions aren't perfect, but they're better than the alternative.

At the moment, taking a phone call in a movie theater is not a crime, whether you think it should be or not. You can't arrest or punish anyone for it. No sane judge will accept it as an excuse for violence.

Courtesy and assertiveness are the way to go. Save your fighting skills for when you have NO choice.

Good topic.

[yenhoi]

Wu De IS important in MA and we should always strive to live by it.

bah! live by common sense and your country's laws.


Why do anything in the theatre at all? How can a small annoyance and a few lousy bucks spur you to any sort of action whatsoever. Even by being nice about it, you are starting the ****.