Is the tide turning away from the wrestlers?

[Frost]

We all know to exceed in MMA you need a well round game, but I have always had the belief that the best base to build off was wrestling, it allows you to dictate the range a fight takes place at, if you want it standing you can keep it standing Ala chuck liddel, if you want it to go to the floor you can take it there, ala matt hughes,
But lately it seems the champions are coming from a different background, a lot of the guys coming out of brazil seem to be Thai and BJJ experts who only study wrestling in order to keep the fight standing
4 of the belt holders in the ufc now are Thai boxers who also have BJJ blackbelts or have won state championships but who seem to want to keep it standing and manage to do so without a vast background in pure wrestling, watching Barao and Aldo defend takedown after takedown with such ease, and watching Anderson in the second round simply shrug off Sonnens best attempts after nullifying all his attacks off his back for 5 minutes has made me wonder, maybe the brazilin camps have the right idea: get very good at stand up, and very good at ground work, and then add in takedown defence, it seems easier for them to do this than for a lot of pure wrestlers to become very comfortable with striking
Of course three of the champions are still former college standout wrestlers but are the days of wrestlers dominating the top tire of the sport gone?

[David Jamieson]

It's organic. It will flow according to what it is the fighters want to do most and what they see as being the shortest path to the goal. For now, it seems that to keep things standing will eliminate a great deal of the protracted struggles that take place on the ground and will also decrease submissions somewhat.

Wrestlers need to do the same thing the MT guys are doing to get the game back to their house.

[Frost]

time was that with the fact it takes place in a cage, with walls to run people into and the fact the clinch just happens in fights wrestlers were seen to have a clear superiority, also factor in that most good wrestlers have wrestled since young children, trained daily and against very high calibre opponents and this wisdom seemed to be correct and indeed held true for a long long time
Now you have guys with very little wrestling skill (relative to these guys) doing what for over a decade very few fighters could do without a hard core wrestling background, keep the fight standing it they chose to, I wonder if this is because they are training differently, or simply because were as before the best athletes in MMA were the wrestlers the playing field is simply levelling out and that guys like aldo who have the athletic abilty to become a very good football player are now moving into MMA

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, its a combination of things I think.
Great striking skill ( like Silva has) will cause the opponent to WANT to take it to the ground and as such, keeping things standing, even though he is a BB in BJJ, just makes sense ( make the opponent fight outside his comfort and make himp lay to your strengths).
Silva and the others most CERTAINLY can ground grapple and fight, but they prefer to keep it standing for a plethora of reasons ( which in Silva's case is his KO ability with all "8 limbs").
The truth is that, for someone with very good striking, you don't need that much to stop the takedown and the reason is that you can make the opponent pay very quickly and he knows it.
The other factor is that takedowns are easy to see when the opponent, because of your striking power, stays on the outside to NOT get hit.

[Frost]

But is that the truth? very good strikers have been takedown over and over in the last decade or so, some have done very well, largly those with a wrestling background like chuck, others like mo smith have learned to grapple enough to keep it standing, but the vast majority without a wrestling background have been put on their backsides over and over.
never before have most of the titles been held by guys without a wrestling background and who like to keep it standing, I mean straight submission grapplers like damian meia have had problems taking guys down but traditionally guys like mike brown, faber and chael have had their way with guys: to watch Aldo shrug off both Faber and Browns takedowns with ease when all he has done is months of wrestling compared to their years…. and to see chael try a desperate spinning backfist simply because his clinch game was being nullified so well in the second round just really seemed to show a tide change in the sport, at least to me, heck to see how well Michael bisping did against chael was eye opening when compared to how he has been man handled in the past by D1 wrestlers, I wonder if they are training differently or simply such good athletes they can learn this stuff very quickly

[Kevin73]

It's whatever gives the advantage. Back when it was mainly strikers, the grapplers had the advantage to get the takedown and then keep it there. Chuck Liddell helped usher in a new way with a good wrestling background, he could stuff the takedown attempts and get back to his feet where his striking won the fights. Notice that when he started to fight very good strikers, he didn't always win. Same goes with the others, since most have the wrestling background and grappling background it is the striking that gives them the advantage over their opponent so they will try and use it more.

But, those same champs I bet would start using their grappling/wrestling if they came up against a superior striker that didn't have a good ground game or takedown defense.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I see this as an evolution of the sport, to a more of a sophisticated striking game...not just wrestling but BJJ is used more and more as a finishing move for a stunned (from strikes) or wounded opponent. Take down defense vs BJJ and wrestling has improved by many of the fighters. Ground and pound, a wrestling staple has dimished in popularity and effectiveness in the MMA. Some of the rules about kneeing downed opponents, elbow strikes, and removal of head butts which are all natural effective offensive techniques for someone with a wrestling background have been eliminated by many of the governing bodies.

Wrestling is a great base, develops outstanding balance, reflexes, conditioning and years of learning how to maintain and cut weight. Wrestlers suffer from several weaknesses:

1)They lead with their head and can get caught with guillotines are triangles.
2)They like their feet on the ground...very few of them develop into outstanding kick strikers.
3)The 'sport' of wrestling at the high school and collegiate level has over the years ruled out some of their more dangerous moves or techniques. Similarly Judo also has been defanged to some extent.
4)Wrestlers are horrible from their back and not in dominant position.

I dont' think it is dead, several MMA champs when mixing wrestling with great boxing skills can produce winners. Chael Sonnen showed amazing ground and pound vs Anderson Silva in their first fight, I think if someone is going to be able to defeat Silva, it can be done through ground and pound or someone who has a great inside fighting skills and stays in close to the champ.

Bring back the head butt!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Frost

But is that the truth? very good strikers have been takedown over and over in the last decade or so, some have done very well, largly those with a wrestling background like chuck, others like mo smith have learned to grapple enough to keep it standing, but the vast majority without a wrestling background have been put on their backsides over and over.
never before have most of the titles been held by guys without a wrestling background and who like to keep it standing, I mean straight submission grapplers like damian meia have had problems taking guys down but traditionally guys like mike brown, faber and chael have had their way with guys: to watch Aldo shrug off both Faber and Browns takedowns with ease when all he has done is months of wrestling compared to their years…. and to see chael try a desperate spinning backfist simply because his clinch game was being nullified so well in the second round just really seemed to show a tide change in the sport, at least to me, heck to see how well Michael bisping did against chael was eye opening when compared to how he has been man handled in the past by D1 wrestlers, I wonder if they are training differently or simply such good athletes they can learn this stuff very quickly

You do realize that striking has become the "anti-grapple" LOL !

I think the difference is that they are focussing on beating the PRINCIPLES behind the takedowns and clinch, rather than trying to actuall beat the techniques.
In short, they are beating grapplers BEFORE it "degenerates" into grappling 100% ( to be honest even 50%).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Hammer

I see this as an evolution of the sport, to a more of a sophisticated striking game...not just wrestling but BJJ is used more and more as a finishing move for a stunned (from strikes) or wounded opponent. Take down defense vs BJJ and wrestling has improved by many of the fighters. Ground and pound, a wrestling staple has dimished in popularity and effectiveness in the MMA. Some of the rules about kneeing downed opponents, elbow strikes, and removal of head butts which are all natural effective offensive techniques for someone with a wrestling background have been eliminated by many of the governing bodies.

Wrestling is a great base, develops outstanding balance, reflexes, conditioning and years of learning how to maintain and cut weight. Wrestlers suffer from several weaknesses:

1)They lead with their head and can get caught with guillotines are triangles.
2)They like their feet on the ground...very few of them develop into outstanding kick strikers.
3)The 'sport' of wrestling at the high school and collegiate level has over the years ruled out some of their more dangerous moves or techniques. Similarly Judo also has been defanged to some extent.
4)Wrestlers are horrible from their back and not in dominant position.

I dont' think it is dead, several MMA champs when mixing wrestling with great boxing skills can produce winners. Chael Sonnen showed amazing ground and pound vs Anderson Silva in their first fight, I think if someone is going to be able to defeat Silva, it can be done through ground and pound or someone who has a great inside fighting skills and stays in close to the champ.

Bring back the head butt!

Some good points there but i disagree about Silva and I think that Chael "success" in their first fight had more to do with Silva being off ( due to injury) than it had to do with Chael, as their 2nd fight proved.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

You do realize that striking has become the "anti-grapple" LOL !

I think the difference is that they are focussing on beating the PRINCIPLES behind the takedowns and clinch, rather than trying to actuall beat the techniques.
In short, they are beating grapplers BEFORE it "degenerates" into grappling 100% ( to be honest even 50%).

good points and i agree they are working with top wrestling coaches to learn how to read wrestlers better and not give them the handles they need but i also think we are seeing better athletes capable of picking up these skills quicker too

watching aldo stuff browns takedowns in the old WEC when he had hold of him with ease did make me wonder if we are seeing a new breed of athletic fighter, no one let alone a non wrestler had treated brown like that before

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Hammer

I see this as an evolution of the sport, to a more of a sophisticated striking game...not just wrestling but BJJ is used more and more as a finishing move for a stunned (from strikes) or wounded opponent. Take down defense vs BJJ and wrestling has improved by many of the fighters. Ground and pound, a wrestling staple has dimished in popularity and effectiveness in the MMA. Some of the rules about kneeing downed opponents, elbow strikes, and removal of head butts which are all natural effective offensive techniques for someone with a wrestling background have been eliminated by many of the governing bodies.

Wrestling is a great base, develops outstanding balance, reflexes, conditioning and years of learning how to maintain and cut weight. Wrestlers suffer from several weaknesses:

1)They lead with their head and can get caught with guillotines are triangles.
2)They like their feet on the ground...very few of them develop into outstanding kick strikers.
3)The 'sport' of wrestling at the high school and collegiate level has over the years ruled out some of their more dangerous moves or techniques. Similarly Judo also has been defanged to some extent.
4)Wrestlers are horrible from their back and not in dominant position.

I dont' think it is dead, several MMA champs when mixing wrestling with great boxing skills can produce winners. Chael Sonnen showed amazing ground and pound vs Anderson Silva in their first fight, I think if someone is going to be able to defeat Silva, it can be done through ground and pound or someone who has a great inside fighting skills and stays in close to the champ.

Bring back the head butt!

good points but i think silva would eat any fighter up for breakfast who satyed in close with him, his clinch game is just too good as rich found out lol

[guy b.]

I think you mistake a lack of primary emphasis on wrestling to win the fight for a lack of familiarity with and proficiency in wrestling. The "striking" focused fighters you talk about are constantly training mma which contains wrestling, rather than first starting as wrestlers and continuing to focus on this aspect as the primary facet of their approach. They do not need years of pure wrestling for this, particularly if they are effective strikers and ground fighters already.

There is also the point that I think someone else made that US style wrestling is weaker than average in the clinch and tends to rely on shots from outside, particularly under striking pressure. This makes for predictable and easily countered approaches from opponents relying on wrestling as their primary skill set.

[Robinhood]

Its an evolution to being more efficient based on the rules and staying safer in the mean time.

[omarthefish]

The tide is turning because they were so dominant.

Everyone trains specifically to beat whatever or whoever is dominant. 10 years ago, wrestling and BJJ could not be ignored. Not everyone fell in love with ground work but everyone was forced to sit up and take notice. You had to adjust your game specifically to deal with it.

Every style of fighting in human history has always evolved to deal with specific threats and everything ultimately becomes obsolete. This includes large scale warfare.

This latest change was not surprising. It was inevitable. (5-10 years back I would get laughed right off the thread for making that claim) That's how evolution works. People used to tell me how today's fighters were "more highly evolved" even thouh there's no such thing as "more highly evolved". "Better" is contextual. Hi-Tech stuff might always get stronger and faster etc. but for MMA, where the weapons remain the same, things are naturally going to evolve in more of a scissors-paper-stone sort of a way.

Just hypothetically, if some new guy shows up and just f-ing dominates MMA with his almost pure striking style, always out striking all these striker/wrestler types and then everyone gets even more striking focused. . . .then you'll see pure wrestlers popping up and tearing them to shreads all over again.

[mawali]

The concept and principles of wrestling as incorporation into MMA, have always provided better strategy and conditioining than TKD, karate, etc against MMA guys. MMA in its simplest denominator has 'wrestling' as its base so that is always a good thing.