Kicks in WCK

[wingchunIan]

It is something that has to be targeted. In any of the full contact bouts you mentioned, you would be immediately disqualified if you tried that.

Not at all the pelvic girdle is a legitimate target area in all of the arts quoted, only the groin is disallowed. In MT the teep and long knee are often aimed at the pelvic region but not in any wistful notion of breaking bones simply in an attempt to target the bladder region

And in most athletic sports you would not see that happen because there would be absolutely no reason to do it.

But surely if it is so fragile there would be at least the odd accidental fracture.

Climbing and car accidents do account for a lot of these type of injury, but if you are aware of how a body's frame is put together you can target certain places where shock or impact can seperate certain parts of the structure. A mastery of Jiujitsu will give you all that

yeah and a mastery of tai chi will allow me to hurl balls of chi energy across the room and knock people out without touching them. Lol
Targetting weak spots in the human anatomy is not solely the preserve of jiujitsu, it is common place across most martial arts (including Wing Chun). However those with a practical bias have tended to move away from targetting areas which require the ability to split a gnats c*ck with full power
Sorry if this post seems a little dismissive or sarcastic but this is one of my pet hates in martial arts. Ultimately to each his own, and where you choose to kick is obviously entirely your perogative. I prefer the achilles tendon, shin, knee, thigh, groin, spine etc as high percentage targets but its only personal choice

[imperialtaichi]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

Not at all the pelvic girdle is a legitimate target area in all of the arts quoted, only the groin is disallowed. In MT the teep and long knee are often aimed at the pelvic region but not in any wistful notion of breaking bones simply in an attempt to target the bladder region.

While kicking to the balls is illegal, we see it accidentally happening all the time. Dispite the protective gear it is still painful to watch (ouch!).

Surely, even purely by accident, shouldn't we see pelvic bones broken more often in contact sports if it can be broken so easily?

Any orthopedic specialists here who can give us a definitive answer?

[imperialtaichi]

Originally Posted by wingchunIan

I prefer the achilles tendon, shin, knee, thigh, groin, spine etc as high percentage targets but its only personal choice

My general rule: I use my bigger bone to hit the opponent's smaller bone, my shorter bone against the opponent's longer bone. I also like to target the middle of long bones (sticks usually snaps in the middle, not at the ends).

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by guy b.

exactly the sort of thing that makes chinese MA a laughing stock

This was a response to my light hearted banter with Joy so no wonder nobody in this place ever shares anything of value!

So guy b, can you answer me this:

Have you heard of the 'Four Set Methods' of Wing Chun?

Without understanding these double-handed postures of Wing Chun you will find the knife work not only difficult, but in some cases totally impossible. 4 hand sets on one side of the body, paired up makes 8. Then look at the BJD and if you can not see what I mean then you need more time. But wait!! Then let's disucss which kicking method relates to which hand methods and see how we get on

This was my resoning for asking Joy to share what he knew about why kicking methods would NOT be linked to BJD. Truth be known, the kicking methods are just as important as the handwork (if not more so IMHO) and so it makes total sense that they would be included within knife and pole practises too. And this is where we find the actual core understanding of the mechanics of the hands and legs working together.

Is it so difficult? No.

Is this the sort of thing that makes CMA a laughing stock? Probably.

Because I see very very few people here putting anything worth any value at all to the discussion of kicking in Wing Chun (and I am talking 'visuals') and the moment I try to have a laugh or share more information you get a response like that.

Don't know why I expected anything different really.

[Paddington]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

Truth be known, the kicking methods are just as important as the handwork (if not more so IMHO) [...] I see very very few people here putting anything worth any value at all to the discussion of kicking in Wing Chun (and I am talking 'visuals')

I have not been around these forums long enough to agree with this statement more fully. However, I do agree that, in my experience, generally people do not understand nor practice kicking enough.

As I said I include small trips and sweeps as a part of kicking and it has always surprised me how senior students become unstuck, as soon as you start to attack their base directly using one's feet and legs in chi sau.

For example, where I train a lot of emphasis is placed upon sarn bok ma (three point steeping) . From sarn bok ma the closing and opening of the foot after or before a step, works very well to disrupt someone's base when one's feet are in contact with the opponent's.

Incidentally sarn bok ma, like kicks, seems IMO to be under trained by many wing chun practitioners and here I can see the direct relevance of the knife form; a way to improve sarn bok ma and the coordination between hands and legs. However, I find it hard to find a high level import from the knife form to kicking more generally as you suggest.

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

Because I see very very few people here putting anything worth any value at all to the discussion of kicking in Wing Chun (and I am talking 'visuals')

OK, how about discussing the difference between the front more snappy kick and the lifting front kick? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these kicks? In which contexts should one be used over the other and why?

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Paddington

OK, how about discussing the difference between the front more snappy kick and the lifting front kick? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these kicks? In which contexts should one be used over the other and why?

I think this is also getting ahead of ourselves because I should have also mentioned that I kinda agree with Ian about there only being 4 commonly seen kicks in Wing Chun, 4 on each leg doubled up makes 8. And what you are talking about here is lifting 'legwork'. Many of the methods in the 108 are actually 'legwork' and not kicks. Many involve sweeping too, which are not 'kicks'. My kung fu uncle promote 16 kicking methods, suggesting that he has 8 on each side, but again some are kicks and some are legwork so I can see why people can get confused.

Please have a look at the kicking form clip I posted and tell me which one/ones you are familiar with. Then we can have a more productive discussion

Austin Goh Wing Chun 16 Method Kicking Form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

[Paddington]

Originally Posted by LoneTiger108

And what you are talking about here is lifting 'legwork'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

Not to be confused here with a lifting kick, which is a kick as I meant it i.e. dung toi.

As far as where I train, it is the case that kicks are broken down to three distinct types of movements which, when used at different angles and distances, gives the appearance of there being many more 'types' of kicks.

I watched that video, thanks for sharing. It seems that the kicking form presented in that video is a recent invention? When I watched it the first bit reminded me, for a number of reasons, of the dummy form. A latter bit then reminded me of chum kui!

[wingchunIan]

Originally Posted by Paddington

OK, how about discussing the difference between the front more snappy kick and the lifting front kick? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these kicks? In which contexts should one be used over the other and why?

For me the difference between jic gerk and tek gerk is the direction and nature of the energy. In tek gerk the kick lifts aiming to impale an on rushing opponent, hit the groin, strike the face of an opponent bending over, scrape the shin etc In jic gerk the kick is lifted in the same way but upon contact there is a pulse or thrust through the heel driving forwards. FWIW I wouldn't refer to it as snapping as it is a use of on / off energy and more of a thrust than a snap.

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Paddington

Not to be confused here with a lifting kick, which is a kick as I meant it i.e. dung toi.

I'm not familiar with the 'sound' of dung, I have 'deng' which is more of a hanging action and our lifting legwork is called something else entirely.

Originally Posted by Paddington

I watched that video, thanks for sharing. It seems that the kicking form presented in that video is a recent invention? When I watched it the first bit reminded me, for a number of reasons, of the dummy form. A latter bit then reminded me of chum kui!

Like I've said, I am not a student of Sifu Goh so I can't comment too much on the origins of these forms but I know exactly what you are saying. Within his curriculum there are over 20 sub sets of stuff like the kicking form, which are drawn from his knowledge of the forms and how to use them to fight. So you may be 100% correct, but I can't say so for sure.

[Paddington]

If it helps you to understand my perspective and naming conventions, I train down the Ip Chun side of Ip Man wing chun.

[LoneTiger108]

Originally Posted by Paddington

If it helps you to understand my perspective and naming conventions, I train down the Ip Chun side of Ip Man wing chun.

OK but this should mean we should understand eachother??

Do you learn directly from Ip Chun in HK or from one of his representatives abroad?

Sifu Austin Goh also learnt from Ip Chun and still sees him these days too (I think as late as this year) so it's interesting to me that we are missing eachothers POV but fme that is not uncommon when it comes to the English spelling of Chinese words to be honest...