Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

monkey beaks!!!!!

a half decent martial artist can make anything work.....even whiping your arse has an application to it if you look close enough.

Shaolin Do has zero kung fu roots therefore cannot be even called "SHAOLIN" in my opinion. it should be called Kungarate.

my apologies. i thought there would be zero evidence of a monkey with a beak. i was horribly incorrect. sorry.

this is the funniest sh!t ever!!

[Lucas]

[Old Noob]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

practicing martial arts is a great thing. the problem starts when someone tries to sell you a BMW when it was nothing more than a Ford Pinto. its really sad cause people get fooled and eventually hurt because they trusted something to teach them something authentic. if jake just called what he's doing karate or even kung fu INFLUENCED karate i wouldn't have a problem with him. at least he could admit its not really shaolin, right?

FOR everyone who reads this thread, if you come across a kung fu school where everyone in the entire lineage was wearing karate gi's, black belts, and using karate style terminology for tradition kung fu techniques......QUESTION THE TEACHER IMMEDIATELY!

DON'T GET FOOLED BY SNAKE OIL SALESMEN

PS. MY DISLIKE IS TOWARDS JAKE FOR TRYING TO TELL ME HE KNEW MANY TEACHERS IN CHINA WHO PRACTICE THE ONE FORM IN QUESTION. RIGHT THERE, THAT IS A BALD FACE LIE. he could have just said...."sorry, my teacher taught it to me, my apologies" i would have just said cool....

in saying, i don't dislike shaolin do.....

I can't really disagree with any of this. If you say, "hey my teacher taught me this and told me this history," you're right, he would be fine. That is assuming, of course, that he did'nt really run into anyone in China who did it.

Anyway, good to see a discussion not go down the nonproductive road.

I am interested in having someone express to me how the form, as performed in the video that Sean posted, expresses well the foundations of your system. Not for any argumentative reason; I'm just interested.

[Old Noob]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

it doesn't. As the form we are talking about (the same one sean posted) it was relayed from our founder lau bun that the form was originally a rare northern shaolin five animal form. he'd been teaching it from the erly 1920's till his passing in 1967. over time, that form got "SOUTHERNIZED" via our Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

one thing not mentioned is that our form is also an internal one.

for our hung sing Choy Lee Fut our forms like Sup Ji Kau Da, Ping Kuen, Sup Ji, and even our Cheung Kuen are better expressions of my style than the 5 animal form.

However, the true ESSENCE of the 5 animal form is expressed in our system not by imitating an animal but its ESSENCE. Speed, accuracy, aggression, cunning, grace.

but i may be misinterpreting what you mean by expressing the foundations

I was confused; I thought this was a guy from your system doing it correctly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8lNk0SjwQ

[Old Noob]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

he is. sifu bender and jake are NOT doing it correctly.

Thats what I thought. So what is this guy doing that correctly expresses the foundations of your system?

[Lucas]

it seems like oldnoob is asking what DFW is doing that expresses your styles foundations well.

[Syn7]

Isn't it possible that the northern shaolin five animal form could have been passed down to others. If this Sifus wife knows it from her family, it is possible that others knew the original form before the lau bin line "southernized" the form with the CLF influence. It's even possible that there could be many diff versions of this form if the original is old. I look at other bak mei schools and see the forms and some are different in this way or that way but it is the same form and the concepts are there. So if a form is like 200 years old there could potentially be 100s of versions out there as the art travels thru different teachers and areas. All these influences make changes here and there like CLF did to the 5 animal form.

Are there markers in Jakes form that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it comes from the book?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Jake, I think his kungarate is pretty fukced up and he is clearly in the dark or a serious liar. He could just be a huge victim tho. Another notch on the SD bedpost. Fukced by Sin The.

My guess is that he was a victim but instead of just admitting it and moving on, he is going balls deep on this in some fukced up denial/save face nerdquest bullsh1t. Ya think? Ya!

[Syn7]

That is hardly proof. I find the standards of evidence in CMA to be highly suspect. Just coz you and your sifu haven't seen it anywhere doesn't mean it isn't anywhere else. The form was originally an obscure family form and it may still be which is why nobody can find it. But then who is actually looking? Who has gone all over the world and spoken to all sifu and asked specifically to find that form. If they had they would be an idiot coz it would be an exercise in futility. Too many people too much land to cover. A team of 10,000 people trained in research methods would find this a daunting task.


I think the only thing you can say with RELATIVE certainty is that your lineage is the only popular lineage to show it to outsiders.


Like I said before, if you can identify the markers and prove that the form came from the book, cool. I do not believe that this Jake kid found a rare form from "many masters in china" clearly the kid is a liar. I'm just sayin, it is possible that the form exists outside your lineage.

Do you have any documentation to show us the form that was originally taught by the wife so we can compare it to what the form has become?

I'm not picking on you HSK, I even like you. You seem like a good guy so please don't take offense to what I'm saying. I just think you need to be a lot more objective in the way you choose what to believe. I can think of a million and one scenarios where that form could exist elsewhere yet remain obscure and hidden.

[Syn7]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

its up to you to believe it or not. I challenge you to find the exact same form ANYWHERE outside my lineage. I don't mean people who bought the book or DVD. I'm talking about a 100% authentic and legitimate system out there. Not these kungarate's. no karate background or tons of caucasians only either.

i can sit back and confidently say you won't find it outside of my lineage. my challenge stands for anyone to do this.



i'd only agree to that if you can find me a lineage in true northern shaolin that does this form. if you DO, i would even thank you for finding it. it would be hella nice to know more background on a form we've been passion down for almost 100 years in our family alone.



no prob. i'm a big boy. not too ingorant either.

like i mentioned above....when a legitimate northern shaolin system can show me the exact same form..... i stand on my statements that this 5 animal form is exclusive to our system. still, i look forward to the day i'm proven wrong.



that would be a negative. for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF. however, i don't know. in the USA branch or my lineage, i'm part of the 3rd generation. so the history side of it isn't clear but isn't unclear as well. yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him. in this respect, he gets all respect.

its the ones who wanted to make gung fu free and available to the american public that i would be leary of. Lau Bun, not so much.

Well there you go. You say "for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF" so you may not even recognize the original form if you saw it.

I'm sure I can't find another with legit lineage, but that isn't proof. You can't tell me what picture is on my wall in front of me. That does not mean there is no pic or that you are a fool. We are just so far removed you have no way of knowing. Now considering the sheer demographics of China and how many areas remain RURAL in a way we can't even fathom, it is more than fair to say that me, you and anyone else is very far removed from China as a whole. Nobody can study everywhere and talk to everyone. That form could have also ended up in other arts that are very closed systems. Or it could just look so different nobody realizes they came from the same place.

Now if you can show documented markers in the book form and show those markers in Jakes form, boom, you got him. And I'm not defending Jake, I'm sure he did learn it from Sin The who did learn it from the book. But that doesn't mean it isn't out there somewhere.

Not everyone has a camera and access to you tube, some have no desire to do any such thing. So how could anyone find proof of something like this without having just stumbled on it? Just coz you can't find it on you tube doesn't mean it isn't there.

Like the famous quote, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns. You have to take into consideration that statistically there is a chance that there are many unknown unknowns here. You followin' me?

[Iron Palm]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him.

So, the argument thus far is: SKT and/or Jake Mace's claims about the origin of the form they teach should not be believed because they propagate fake kung fu for money, and you know for a fact they stole the form in question from your lineage because it matches the fake kung fu your teacher put in a book he sold for money.

Is that about right?

[Iron Palm]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

as right as about how much you take dik in ur as$
now THAT sounds about right.....

Is bigotry one of the "markers" you were referring to? Because I have yet to hear SKT, Jake Mace, or any of their students speak as you just have.

If that's the kind of behavior that can be expected from students of your "highly legit" lineage, I'm quite happy to be part of an illegitimate one.

[Empty_Cup]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

...

DO A SEARCH ON THE CHINESE CHARACTERS. YOU'LL SEE JUST HOW MANY SCHOOLS TEACH NORTHERN SHAOLIN FIVE ANIMALS.

Did a search on these characters and only came up with this thread. Can you link to the results you found?

[PalmStriker]

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

its up to you to believe it or not. I challenge you to find the exact same form ANYWHERE outside my lineage. I don't mean people who bought the book or DVD. I'm talking about a 100% authentic and legitimate system out there. Not these kungarate's. no karate background or tons of caucasians only either.

i can sit back and confidently say you won't find it outside of my lineage. my challenge stands for anyone to do this.



i'd only agree to that if you can find me a lineage in true northern shaolin that does this form. if you DO, i would even thank you for finding it. it would be hella nice to know more background on a form we've been passion down for almost 100 years in our family alone.



no prob. i'm a big boy. not too ingorant either.

like i mentioned above....when a legitimate northern shaolin system can show me the exact same form..... i stand on my statements that this 5 animal form is exclusive to our system. still, i look forward to the day i'm proven wrong.



that would be a negative. for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF. however, i don't know. in the USA branch or my lineage, i'm part of the 3rd generation. so the history side of it isn't clear but isn't unclear as well. yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him. in this respect, he gets all respect.

its the ones who wanted to make gung fu free and available to the american public that i would be leary of. Lau Bun, not so much.

You are correct in your reasoning. They will come up with Zero documentation.

[Empty_Cup]

Did Lau Bun's teacher's wife ever say where she learned it from?

[Judge Pen]

I'm loving the discussion on the Five Animal Form. I know SD's version of this form and have compared it to DFW's book and video. I've had these very conversations with Sean about whether it was stolen from a book or it was possible that the form was somehow passed down to others that taught LB's wife's family. Frankly, at this point I don't know and don't really care anymore. I'll say this, the version the Jake does is very different than how I was taught. In fact most of his stuff is radically different in form, content and expression than I was taught. That is one of the biggest problems with SD; everyone does it their own way and SKT didn't seem to care to correct the divergent groups. Jake has excellent flexibility, balance and strength, but his stuff just looks off to me.

So I guess to sum up my comments, what I learned may be fake, but my fake version looks closer to DFW's fake version than Jake's fake version.