Iron Palm

[Raipizo]

I've seen people use river rock in their iron body/palm training do you believe this would come after the normal gravel bag and before the iron shot bag or after using the iron shot bag for awhile?

[Empty_Cup]

What methods do folks out there use for fingertip conditioning?

[Dale Dugas]

Be careful as the fingers are rather fragile compared to the carpal bones of the hand.

Many people use a bucket of beans, and do not strike into the bucket but push their hands and fingers into the beans and then flap the hands in various angles to strengthen the flexor and extendor muscles of the forearms.

You need to have not only strong muscles of the hand but the whole arm so that you do not vector off to the side or up or down due to weakness.

Think about your hands being at the distal end of your arms, and you get the picture.

Many people use a stronger medicine for the fingers as you have the Shi Xuan acupuncture points located on the ends of the finger tips.

Some schools have a medicine they cook up and then soak the hands on the hot liniment.

Also captains of crush grippers, Bao Ding Wan(Solid Steel Ball Bearings), sand bags around 5-10 pounds are also used.

Some of the Hakka systems use rocks, marbles, and steel shot at the advanced stages but remember that you can cripple your hands and you do not want to deaden the nerves of the hands.

[IronFist]

Originally Posted by Empty_Cup

What methods do folks out there use for fingertip conditioning?

Why do you want to condition your fingertips anyway?

Not flaming. I'm actually curious. It seems like one of those things that is cool in movies but not really practical in real life. Any target that I strike with my fingertips is going to be soft enough that I don't need conditioning.

Do you want to put your fingers through Coke cans or whatever?

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by IronFist

Why do you want to condition your fingertips anyway?

Not flaming. I'm actually curious. It seems like one of those things that is cool in movies but not really practical in real life. Any target that I strike with my fingertips is going to be soft enough that I don't need conditioning.

Do you want to put your fingers through Coke cans or whatever?

Well really the only thing you should aim at with fingers is the eyes. Any other tergets are pretty pointless to hit with the fingers (throat included). The problem is that mostly it's taught to strike from a distance to the eyes which produces a flinch reflex and can end up with the fingers hitting the skull. This is why most people feel they need iron finger training.

If you want to learn to use your fingers learn to gouge with the fingers or thumb once the hand is in contact with the face, preferably while controlling against a wall or in a dominant ground position. This will save your fingers, allow you to do a great deal of damage, and save you time doing worthless iron conditioning.

[Dale Dugas]

Originally Posted by Bacon

Well really the only thing you should aim at with fingers is the eyes. Any other tergets are pretty pointless to hit with the fingers (throat included). The problem is that mostly it's taught to strike from a distance to the eyes which produces a flinch reflex and can end up with the fingers hitting the skull. This is why most people feel they need iron finger training.

If you want to learn to use your fingers learn to gouge with the fingers or thumb once the hand is in contact with the face, preferably while controlling against a wall or in a dominant ground position. This will save your fingers, allow you to do a great deal of damage, and save you time doing worthless iron conditioning.

Finger training is not just for striking with the fingertips.

the side benefit from Iron Palm and Iron Finger training is a great increase in grip strength. You need to strengthen the entire arm from the shoulders down, people who feel they need only train the palms or the fingers without the rest of the supporting structure are just wasting their time as they will fail in application.

Maybe you should not talk about things you have no direct experience in.

Also the nerves in and around the throat are easy to hit with all manner of strikes, not just the fingers. And they can be very dangerous.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by IronFist

Why do you want to condition your fingertips anyway?

Not flaming. I'm actually curious. It seems like one of those things that is cool in movies but not really practical in real life. Any target that I strike with my fingertips is going to be soft enough that I don't need conditioning.

Do you want to put your fingers through Coke cans or whatever?

Did you see Mike Parella's video of finger striking a watermelon?
How is that NOT cool ?

I was once struck in ribs by a guy who did finger strikes and had very well conditioned fingers, it was an special kind of pain.
I think that IF you are gonna use finger strikes, conditoning is a must.
I don't use finger strikes so I don't do that much myself, BUT I have seen and felt first hand the usefulness of conditioning IF one uses finger strikes.

[TaichiMantis]

Originally Posted by IronFist

Why do you want to condition your fingertips anyway?

Not flaming. I'm actually curious. It seems like one of those things that is cool in movies but not really practical in real life. Any target that I strike with my fingertips is going to be soft enough that I don't need conditioning.

Do you want to put your fingers through Coke cans or whatever?

You've never felt my Sifu's finger strikes! And I agree with sjr

[Lucas]

In regards to over all iron hand conditioning, or specialization....After watching sanjuro nail that heavy bag with phoenix eye hooks I decided I would rather take a fist to the side of my neck over his phoenixneye any day. Guess who gets to hit with phoenix eye like that. Only guys that condition for it. If you can't see the real world application from that then you are quite dense.

[Dale Dugas]

I really have no idea where people crap on people who condition your weapons(ie hands, arms, fingers, shins, etc) to make them harder and able to dish out more abuse to those who attack in whether in sport fighting or real encounters.

Anyone who always wraps their hands or puts pads on they arms and legs is going to be hurt if not seriously injured when they whack someone without the pads on.

Nothing wrong with being strong and conditioned.

[TenTigers]

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

I really have no idea where people crap on people who condition your weapons(ie hands, arms, fingers, shins, etc) to make them harder and able to dish out more abuse to those who attack in whether in sport fighting or real encounters.

Anyone who always wraps their hands or puts pads on they arms and legs is going to be hurt if not seriously injured when they whack someone without the pads on.

Nothing wrong with being strong and conditioned.

Anyone who has been struck in the softer areas of the body with a strong set of fingers realizes the effectiveness of these strikes.(notice I didn't mention th3 deadly dim mak...) Will they drop you? Nope. Will they cause pain and disrupt your opponent, allowing you to follow up with other strikes? Yep.
Striking the peripheral nervous system is a viable skill well worth learning.
Sure, winter in NY negates a lot of these strikes, and limits you to mostly headhunting, limiting your options, as do gloves and sportfighting, etc., but no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
(I'm trying to cover as many bases as I can, so we don't have endless pages of,"oh yeah? What if..")

[Dale Dugas]

Conditioning is a good thing no matter what you are conditioning.

I am not talking about destroying the hands, shins, or other body parts with ridiculous fantasy training like the 72 arts of shaolin p oop.

As Rik mentioned, there is something very viable in studying how to hit the nerves of others.

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Finger training is not just for striking with the fingertips.

the side benefit from Iron Palm and Iron Finger training is a great increase in grip strength.

Which can be done safely and more easily in other ways. When you can deadlift, row, press and clean a decent amout your grip strength will be good enough anyway and you'll be stronger than most.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

You need to strengthen the entire arm from the shoulders down, people who feel they need only train the palms or the fingers without the rest of the supporting structure are just wasting their time as they will fail in application.

See above

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Maybe you should not talk about things you have no direct experience in.

Well if that's the case you can talk about iron training and I'll refrain but then you have no cause to talk about actual fighting.

Here's the rub.
Pressure point techniques are generally ineffectual for several reason not the least of which is that you're trying to hit very a small target under pressure. Many people can shrug off strikes or pressure to those points. The same can not be said of areas which can easily be hit with larger, more easily and safely conditioned weapons like the temple, jaw, brachial plexus, liver, kidneys, or peroneal nerve. So anything which could be struck with the fingers could be more effectually struck by another tool such as a fist, edge of the hand, palm, or elbow.

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Also the nerves in and around the throat are easy to hit with all manner of strikes, not just the fingers. And they can be very dangerous.

Ooo the magical nerve striking. I'm shaking in my dim mak booties. If you hit the throat or area around it hard enough you'll do damage and there are better tools for that like the edge of the hand, forearm, etc. You don't need any kind of iron conditioning for that.

How about this. Find a well trained boxer or Thai boxer and try to apply your finger strikes under pressure. Once you wake up tell me how it went.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pressure point techniques are generally ineffectual for several reason not the least of which is that you're trying to hit very a small target under pressure. Many people can shrug off strikes or pressure to those points. The same can not be said of areas which can easily be hit with larger, more easily and safely conditioned weapons like the temple, jaw, brachial plexus, liver, kidneys, or peroneal nerve. So anything which could be struck with the fingers could be more effectually struck by another tool such as a fist, edge of the hand, palm, or elbow.

Every MA has "vital point striking".
The correct theory has always been, to use the sniper analogy: Aim Small, Miss Small, Aim big, Miss Big.
I am not a fan of finger strikes so I don't train them, BUT I have seen them being used quite effectively under the right circumstances.

[IronFist]

Originally Posted by Dale Dugas

Finger training is not just for striking with the fingertips.

the side benefit from Iron Palm and Iron Finger training is a great increase in grip strength. You need to strengthen the entire arm from the shoulders down, people who feel they need only train the palms or the fingers without the rest of the supporting structure are just wasting their time as they will fail in application.

How does training the fingers with striking cause an increase in grip strength?

I'm agreeing that grip strength is important.

I fail to see how any sort of striking training will cause an increase in potential muscle output.