paulie zink and the tai shing pek kwar family conflict

[Royal Dragon]

You know, there are alot of frauds in the MA world. It seems today there are more frauds, than the real thing. It's hard for one to know who is real, and who is not anymore.

From personal experiance, I know Chung Moo Quan is fake, and I can gather Temple King Fu is fake, and Shaolin Do..............well, that is a family system masquerading as something it's not too, so it's Fake.

Me, I did a ton of research, made contacts all over the world exchanged videos, and learned forms from them. I went to real people I felt had the principals I needed to make this work, and I did the best I could to absorb them.

I bill myself as a researcher of my art. Those who come to me come to learn the results of my research, not to learn from a specific lineage. (When I was teaching that is). I offer a "Mad sampler" of Tai tzu from around the world, nothing more.


Am I fake? I don't think so for one simple reason, I'm open about how I did it, what I learned, and where it all comes from (Except when it come to certian promises I have made to keep certian sources quiet).

Yes, I may not have much more than a collection of forms, but my honesty and openness about how I am doing this is what keeps me from being a fraud. I don't claim to be a lineage holder, or have any rank or position in anyone's system outside my own (That I founded myself) If all these other guys could do the same, there would not be a problem so long as they have found a way to build the skills needed to do the job, can demostraight that, and effectively teach those skills.

[Brad]

From the TSPK website:

3.They have used our pictures, which are exclusively used from our school book in Hong Kong, on their book without our permission. We reserve the legal right on this matter.

For people that say all evidence against Zink is hearsay, that you can't find our for sure that Zink is a fake, etc. This one claim should be pretty easy to check up on for anyone that's serious about fomring an educated opinion on the matter. It's pretty straightforward and doesn't require any background checks of who learned from who, or anything like that. If Zink stole material from Chan Sau Chung's book, then that's solid hard evidence that Zink is a fake. It seems more open and shut(for anyone who cares enough) than Shaolin-Do, Chung Moo Doe, or Temple Kungfu.

[cerebus]

Yeah, but did Chan ever teach Kung Fu to porn star Asia Carrera? Ha! I didn't think so!

[Doug]

Originally posted by GARRA DE TIGRE
hello
i'd post this topic last year , i believe , and nobody answer . right now become a hot topic . i don't know why .

Sorry about not getting to this sooner. I only discovered it this week. It may seem that I am being quite blatant with my criticism, but understand that I have tried to do a lot of the question work quietly for some time (since the, I think, 2000 seminars in Los Angeles). I never heard anything from Zink and crew, regardless of how I asked or how many times. My sources are direct sources in this matter, so I feel I am being fair here in providing information that has obviously not been made plain to everyone. It really bugs me that Zink has been able to get away with this for as long as he has. Well, I should say Zink and Matsuda since both of them are involved.

Anyway, I would have responded last year had I known about it.

Doug M

[Doug]

Am I fake? I don't think so for one simple reason, I'm open about how I did it, what I learned, and where it all comes from (Except when it come to certian promises I have made to keep certian sources quiet).

Right. So much of this is about misrepresentation. For example, try getting the Disney empire to give you permission to use Mickey Mouse for anything. It will make sure you use that **** image as it sees fit as well as requiring payment and all that. So much effort goes into protecting a fake rodent. Protecting one's art is protecting one's very life, far, far more intense and, well, important that a cartoon character. Some guy says he is a member of a martial lineage (what really means a martial family) and claims to promote that system's art as authentic and true. Where are all the lawyer's and laws protecting a martial heritage?

Doug M

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

sometyhing more i want to say :

grandmaster chan is one of the most loved and respected in hong kong kung fu community . his school always was in close contact with the hung gar schools from lam sai wing time who was a wong fei hung disciple . his great friendship ( like sow choy tell us ) with lee koon hung's choy lay fut kung fu association and another great schools is a prove about this .
i have a brazilian kung fiu magazine with one guy promoting is a heir of the fu jaw pai system from a student from master wong moon toy . i am not sure , but i think is case like zink's case . for wath i know fu jow pai association don't have another branches in brazil . master wai hong is the heir of the system . but maybe this guy from brazil think master wai hong never will know what he is promoting . maybe zink never believed master chan people would come to teach to united states .

[Royal Dragon]

I'm sure that is it. They never thought anyone would know. HOWEVER, in my case, Tai Tzu is unsually rare in the US, and "I" could probably have gotten away with doing something like that too. I chose not to, not becase I thought I'd get caught, but because it's just plain wrong to misrepresent yourself.

I'm sure i have lost respect form members of the board here due to the way I choose to go about persuing my martial intrests, But I can guarentee that I have far more respect from everyone because I openly admit I learned alot of my Kung Fu from video exchanges with Tai Tzu players around the world. I've exchanged enough to build a complete system for the most part, in two major Tai Tzu classifacations (Southern Tai Tzu Quan, and the Northern Chang Chuan/Hong Chuan). I even have some sets of the Southern Monkey. It's public knowledge, because "I" made it that way. Infact, I've almost over done it just so no one can ever call me a fraud due to the way I went about this.

I "Could" Right now open a school, and claim lineage to some fake made up master like John C. Kim did with Chung Moo Quan. But I don't. I know that when it's time for me to open a school, and start teaching again I have what it takes to do it sucsessfully with out being a BS artist. I also know that all these other goofs could just as easily have done the same thing with out being huge frauds too.

[phoenixdog]

I had the misfortune to watch zink's mi chung tape. He is off balance,wondering what the next move is,completely off on his info about "lost track" which an ape style. The martial arts media has embraced him just as the media does with pro boxers,Joe Mesi comes to mind.Monkey is not the garbage he does.A monkey fighter will confront him and clean his clock one day.

[LaterthanNever]

"That is the problem. Cho Chat Ling is not part of the authentic Tai Shing Pek Qwar lineage."

I would like to ask this in an open ended fashion. I do not study monkey kung fu. By any chance..do you have a back issue of "Kung Fu/Tai Chi" magazines' "top 100 kung fu styles of the millenium"?

The detail for most of the style which I have some historical knowledge on seems accurate. Of interest is..in the Monkey kung fu section..Cho Chat Ling is actually mentioned. Oddly..Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung is not. I don't know why this is. It states(if I remember correctly) that Cho Chat Ling was a student of the founder Kou Sze. Perhaps their source for writing about the monkey style was Paulie Zink?(with the mention of Cho Chat Ling).

All the controversy regarding Zink and sifu Michael Matsuda has left an odd taste in my mouth. Are there any disciples or sifus of Grandmaster Chan Sau Chung in the USA?

[soulfist]

They said Cho Chat Ling learned from Gan Dak Hoi, not Kau Sei...


The whole controversy is just a big mess though, done poorly on both sides! Chan Sau Chung tried to contact Zink before to discuss this matter, but he did it very aggressively in a demanding manner. Justified or not, his approach didnt help things. On the other side, Zink just clammed up and said nothing. He could have avoided it all with open communication with Chan Sau Chung on whatever level. Neither played it diplomatically and the mess is all that is left, too bad.

I feel the main point here is that Zink and Chan do 2 different styles, regardless of the name being the same. Zink is not fake monkey, but he is not TSPK monkey, and this is an undisputable fact!

Assuming Cho Chat Ling learned from Gan Dak Hoi, he also had 4 top disciples in Hong Kong who carried on his art, one being Chan Sau Chung. Now 4 of these 5 disciples do the same style in the same manner and all know eachother quite well. But the 5th one does a style with not 1 single similar movement, and the others who were there throughout have no knowledge of him what so ever. They literally have not a single piece of evidence to support their story! If the kung fu looked similar then maybe the history could be questioned, but it doesnt.

Thats that, no more can be said!

[LaterthanNever]

Soul Fist,

"They said Cho Chat Ling learned from Gan Dak Hoi, not Kau Sei..."

Thanks! That's what I meant to say..I didn't have the copy of the mag here..

"Assuming Cho Chat Ling learned from Gan Dak Hoi, he also had 4 top disciples in Hong Kong who carried on his art, one being Chan Sau Chung."

Interesting. Are you saying that GM Chan Sau Chung was the disciple of Ga Dak Hoi --OR---Is CSC the disciple of Cho Chat Ling? If the later of the two..then it would mean that CSC is the disciple of the man Paulie Zink claims is his teacher! (which would be a unique twist indeed). Or do you mean that CSC kung fu brother under Ga Dak Hoi was Cho Chat Ling?

With all of this lineage controversy aside..is there anyone in the USA who teaches authentic monkey kung fu?

[CLFNole]

Everyone knows Chan Sau Chung followed Gan Dak Hoi. I believe that is what Soulfist meant but when reading it, it could be read how you described. When he says "he had 4 top disciples" I think he was refering to Gan Dak Soi not CCL.

[LaterthanNever]

Thanks.

With that said..is there anyone in the USA teaching actual TSPK monkey style who is legit?

LTN

[4 Dragons]

What ever happened to GM Chan Sau Chung' school in Vancouver? Contact info anyone?

[CLFNole]

He moved back to Hong Kong.