Shaolin QingLong Chu Hai Quan

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by Xian

I have experiences with all of those arts to and I dissagree. My experience showed me that very much on whats useful and what not depends on your level of training. That means how much your body is able to move freely and aply power in all necessary directions.That goes extremly for the Shaolin Quan. I would say some Shaolin sets havent any use if you are not trained enough and they werent intented to as Shaolin Fighting Monks for example were some kind of ancient proffessionals. Or just simply said some sort of Special soilders. Someone who trains 8 hours seven days a week or even more hours is capaple of doing more with his body and thats for sure. You can take Modern MMA Fighters or Shooto Fighters for example.

I remember a Shooto Fighter who was extremply good at bringing people down with flying leglocks and was successful with it. Could I perform it ?Nope,those it mean it isnt useful ?Nope.

By they way where are you from ?By anymeans from Germany ?If so I would love to have an exchange with you.

Sorry I'm across the pond in Canukistan.

The problem with your argument is that someone has shown that flying leglocks, even though they are a low percentage move, can work. Just like Shinya Aoki and his flying armbar. If you can show me a video of someone who has trained this form actually using these movements in a full contact fighting competition against skilled fighters then we can discuss. Martial arts has a very easy measuring stick. Fight and win.

The other things with regard to training time. No matter how good an athlete you are there are some things which still will not work or will be so low percentage as to merit inclusion into that category and moreso if you're fighting anyone of any skill or size. You'll notice you don't see very many people mastering the flying omoplata.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

We've all seen and heard "this isn't real martial arts it can't stand up to MMA, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jujitsu (and often also Wing Chun)" countless numbers of times. No amount of discussion will change his mind, he's already a grandmaster of "reality based martial arts".

i'll ignor the attack there because in a reasoned and civilized discussion it has no place. I'm not talking in relation to those systems but rather any system which produces skilled fighters. Take shuai jiao, sanda, savate, judo, wrestling. They all produce skilled fighters who have been able to compete in full contact fighting competitions and if you tried using those kind of moves against skilled practitioners from those art they would wipe the mat with you.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

There will always be someone who says Shaolin or any other martial art is not practical. There will always be someone who wants to act like a tough guy online. There will always be someone who is the worlds greatest authority on what "works in real life". There will always be people who will get on here and tell you that any style is useless except for MMA, BJJ, and Muay Thai.

Most of all, there will always be people who are just *******s

I am discussing this in a reason and civilized manner basing my arguments on evidence and without resorting to personal attacks and insults. I am not talking about shaolin martial arts as a whole nor trying to "act like a tough guy" but am talking about this video.

Do you wish to discuss in reasonable manner or keep going the way you are now

[Orion Paximus]

Originally Posted by Bacon

I am discussing this in a reason and civilized manner basing my arguments on evidence and without resorting to personal attacks and insults. I am not talking about shaolin martial arts as a whole nor trying to "act like a tough guy" but am talking about this video.

Do you wish to discuss in reasonable manner or keep going the way you are now

Did it never occur to you, that you can not see the practical applications because your experience with Kung Fu is so limited? Just a thought.

[Xian]

Originally Posted by Bacon

Sorry I'm across the pond in Canukistan.

What ? I googled it and it came out something like Canada...

The problem with your argument is that someone has shown that flying leglocks, even though they are a low percentage move, can work. Just like Shinya Aoki and his flying armbar. If you can show me a video of someone who has trained this form actually using these movements in a full contact fighting competition against skilled fighters then we can discuss. Martial arts has a very easy measuring stick. Fight and win.

I thought you might come up with this. Yes thats true. My point was that for some people things seem useless until they have trained to a certain level.I myself have discovered this, think that such and such thing is useless until my body was able to do it.

A video of this ?Well its hard to find any good video which shows a form shown in a good manner, thanks to a Goverment which educates people to sell culture till the last bit. And the few good people pass their art on in secret...

The other things with regard to training time. No matter how good an athlete you are there are some things which still will not work or will be so low percentage as to merit inclusion into that category and moreso if you're fighting anyone of any skill or size. You'll notice you don't see very many people mastering the flying omoplata.

You have a point. Thanks for reminding me. I will try my best to keep that in mind in my training.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Tea Serpent]

Has anyone here ever heard the saying "don't feed the trolls"?

When I'm watching the news and a three year old child walks and says that what I'm watching is stupid I ignore that child. I certainly don't engage them in a debate about the merits of the nightly news.
Why? Because the child doesn't care, they only want attention, and if I engage the child in debate then I become the stupid one, not the child or the news.
Not only that but I don't get to learn anything, which is why I was watching the news in the first place.

It was immediately apparent that Bacon has no knowledge at all of Chinese martial arts in general or Shaolin in particular.
When asked exactly what about the form was not martially practical he immediately resorted to the "I'd like to see that in the ring against MMA" line. Every serious question directed at him was either ignored or answered in only the vaguest of terms.
In fact there was nothing in any of his responses to suggest that he wasn't just cutting and pasting random paragraphs from any of the other countless "this video/style/teacher is crap" threads spawned by other trolls with no knowledge of the subject they are debating.

Do you really think Bacon knows a single application of a single movement in that form?
Even if he was a master of every style he listed (MMA, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, BJJ) would that give him some type of insight into early Shaolin Luohan material?

It's not people like Bacon that kill threads (there will always be trolls) it's the people who can't ignore them.

In this case it particularly bothers me since I am very interested in this form and I expect that there were a few people who would have had some insight. seeing as how this form is an important repository of key Shaolin techniques that have otherwise been lost.

[Bacon]

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

Has anyone here ever heard the saying "don't feed the trolls"?

When I'm watching the news and a three year old child walks and says that what I'm watching is stupid I ignore that child. I certainly don't engage them in a debate about the merits of the nightly news.
Why? Because the child doesn't care, they only want attention, and if I engage the child in debate then I become the stupid one, not the child or the news.
Not only that but I don't get to learn anything, which is why I was watching the news in the first place.

i'm not sitting here going "durrrrr dis iz dumb mma is teh realz." If you want to have a discussion you're going to have different viewpoints so deal with it.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

When asked exactly what about the form was not martially practical he immediately resorted to the "I'd like to see that in the ring against MMA" line.

I asked you to show me an example of where the movements in the form were applied in a full contact fight against a resistant opponent. You're saying it's useful so the onus of proof is on you.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

Do you really think Bacon knows a single application of a single movement in that form?

See above.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

Even if he was a master of every style he listed (MMA, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, BJJ) would that give him some type of insight into early Shaolin Luohan material?

All martial arts has one measuring stick: full contact fighting against skilled resistant opponents. If you can show me where it has been applied as such by someone who has practiced it then I can and will admit that I was mistake.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

It's not people like Bacon that kill threads (there will always be trolls) it's the people who can't ignore them.

No it's people who automatically say that I'm trolling simply because I'm questioning something's validity.

Originally Posted by Tea Serpent

In this case it particularly bothers me since I am very interested in this form and I expect that there were a few people who would have had some insight. seeing as how this form is an important repository of key Shaolin techniques that have otherwise been lost.

If it's not useful then let it gl the way of the dinosaur.

[tattooedmonk]

I was wondering if I could ask you a few simple questions about your background in the martial arts in general and CMA in particular, would you mind answering them?

[Sal Canzonieri]

And duh. The moves in Shaolin sets have Qigong and Neigong embedded in them, they enhance your health while training. In "real life" the moves from a routine are not done in a series like in the Hong Kong chop sokey films. They are done free form, the one that is needed comes through at the moment necessary. It is the Chan (Zen) method of learning that makes this possible, the mind and body work as one. Self defense is not a sport, it is not done in the ring, like MMA. It is done in response to an attack, the body-mind responds. A kick is not a kick, a punch is not a punch. They might look like one on the outside, but in execution and application they are done as take downs.

I have done Shaolin application demos at TKD, Karate, and MMA schools, then they get it.

[Shaolin]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri

And duh. The moves in Shaolin sets have Qigong and Neigong embedded in them, they enhance your health while training. In "real life" the moves from a routine are not done in a series like in the Hong Kong chop sokey films. They are done free form, the one that is needed comes through at the moment necessary. It is the Chan (Zen) method of learning that makes this possible, the mind and body work as one. Self defense is not a sport, it is not done in the ring, like MMA. It is done in response to an attack, the body-mind responds. A kick is not a kick, a punch is not a punch. They might look like one on the outside, but in execution and application they are done as take downs.

I have done Shaolin application demos at TKD, Karate, and MMA schools, then they get it.

Finally someone that gets it.

[Tea Serpent]

I wish Sal would have commented on what he knows about the actual history of the form.

Anyways this is some of what I know about the form, most of it is from different Chinese articles I read on it. I can't Guarantee it's 100% accurate but I'm too lazy to go back and check everything so I'll do the best I can from memory. If anyone has any questions I can look it up again for more detailed information, or probably just send you some links.
Green Dragon Exits Sea was created by taking what was considered the 24 oldest, most practical, and most representative moves out their old Luohan material. It's not known exactly when this was done but likely during the Ming dynasty.
The form was supposedly lost by the time they started rebuilding the temple a few decades ago. But it is practiced by the Shaolin monks in Kaifeng so I don't know if they preserved it or got it from folk masters.
It is also practiced in Chang Jia Quan and many people believe that he (Chang Naizhou) learned it along with his Xiao and Da Luohan sets from master Yan in Luoyang (and likely some of his other Shaolin related material like Da Hong Quan, Hei Hu Quan, Bai Hu Quan, and Pao Quan).
It is also part of the Shaolin Liu He Quan style taught around Dengfeng. This is interesting because it is recorded in some Qing dynasty manuscripts that it is a companion set to Liu He Quan
It is also recorded that it fits? (can't understand whether what I was reading was saying it was part of a system taught with these sets or that they could fit together as opposing sides of a two person set) with I think (if I remember properly) a Hong Chui set and a maybe Five Tigers something set?
There are two roads of Qing Long Chu Hai Quan. I would like to know if any one lineage preserves both. (although both are still around)

The first video that Xian posted isn't like any other version I have ever seen. I would really be interested in knowing where it came from. It is extremely "hard" looking, usually the form is known for it's blending of soft and hard Luohan methods along with it's dragon like waves in the spine. It's almost like that version is mixed with Shaolin Hong Quan. (although the moves are still mostly recognizable)

I posted links to most of the other traditional versions earlier, but here is the Zhengzhou Shaolin Liu He Quan style's version of the form.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzI1NDY2MDAw.html

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Bacon

Wing chun, muay Thai, bjj, and mma.

So basically no martial art that has forms training...

I can't count that you know much Wing Chun because you'd know from its few short forms that things are not applied the way they look in the forms. If you fought just like the Wing Chun forms it would be useless too. Don't know why listed Wing Chun first.

So what is your basis for criticism here? Just parroting your sport fighting friends it seems.