Zhai Yao Yi Lu

[iunojupiter]

I love the second section of Zhai Yao. Almost knocked my buddy out a couple of times with the last move alone. I've got some weight to throw around, and that downward beng chui can get some good oomph behind it. Even blocked, it's going to move the target.
I also love just pulling someone around like a rag doll with all the hooking/pulling combos. It's not just enough to hit them, but to pull them into the strike... poetry in motion.

Cheers,
Josh

[mooyingmantis]

Originally Posted by iunojupiter

I love the second section of Zhai Yao. Almost knocked my buddy out a couple of times with the last move alone. I've got some weight to throw around, and that downward beng chui can get some good oomph behind it. Even blocked, it's going to move the target.
I also love just pulling someone around like a rag doll with all the hooking/pulling combos. It's not just enough to hit them, but to pull them into the strike... poetry in motion.

Cheers,
Josh

LOL! My kind of training partner. I wish we lived closer together.

[iunojupiter]

Originally Posted by mooyingmantis

LOL! My kind of training partner. I wish we lived closer together.

Only a 10 hour drive, give or take.

[mooyingmantis]

In the first six sections of Zhao Yao we see that the Jade Maiden is busy in three different ways:

进 步 玉 女 绣 花 - jìn bù yù nǚ xiù huā - Advance Step, The Jade Maiden Embroiders

玉 女 过 桥 - yù nǚ guò qiáo - The Jade Maiden Crosses the Bridge

右 玉 女 穿 梭 - yù nǚ chuān suō - The Jade Maiden Works the Shuttle

Here are descriptions of the three Jade Maiden techniques:

Advance Step, The Jade Maiden Embroiders

Shuffle the left foot forward into a Small Hill Climbing stance and change both hands to double hooks. Twist the hands at head height till the right hook is forward and the left hook is in front of the neck. Step the right foot forward at an angle and twist the hooks till the left hook is forward and the right hook is in front of the neck. This is traditionally interpreted as an elbow locking technique, but it can also be used as a neck twisting take-down.

The Jade Maiden Crosses the Bridge

Circle both hands downward and to the right in a counter-clockwise circle to block a strike toward the stomach. Step the left foot forward and continue to circle the hands upward and to the left with double claws to block a strike toward the face. Step the right foot forward and execute a right augmented elbow strike. The double claws can also be a feign toward the eyes before the augmented elbow.

The Jade Maiden Works the Shuttle

From a Small Hill Climbing Stance, execute a left seal to the opponent's lead right wrist. Shuffle forward and strike the opponent's face with the right thrusting mantis claw.

[Tainan Mantis]

Originally Posted by mooyingmantis

崩 点 - bēng diǎn - crashing dot: The Chinese character 点 refers to the brush stroke in Chinese calligraphy that is used to make a "dot". An example of this is the four dots seen at the bottom of the character 点. The movement in the form is simply a beng chui/bung cheui strike. I believe the choice of the term beng dian refers to the quick, snappy action used to "dot" the opponent's face with the strike.

I have been wondering if I should chime in on this point for a while now.
As to why is the character 'dian' used' you state that it is because of the term of refering to one of the strokes of calligraphy as 'dian'

This argument has a certain amount of merit.
But this character 'dian' is first seen used in terms of weapons such as spear.
THe habit of calling a strike by this word 'dian' appears to start in the Ming dynasty with a spear strike.

So does mantis follow calligraphy terminolgy or spear (or jian)?

To prove your point that the term comes from calligrpahy, the technique 'dian spear' or 'dian jian (straght sword)' does remind one of the calligraphy stroke.

OR maybe it is some other reason entirely...
While the character for 'dian' in common usage can mean to 'dot' something like you said,
it also means small.
And so in Mantis it seems to me more likely that 'dian' is used to describe a back hand that uses a 'small' power. Since the technqieus were described by students as they were applied to them, this might make sense.

THe teacher tells the student to strike, the students uses a 'small' force and the teacher shows the application. THen the students train it on each other.
LAter than night (or sometime later) the student, especially Cui SHoushan, writes it down for future.

OR it could be a combination of the two.
To understand better it would help to find the term 'dian' used by other martial cultures. So Far I do not know of any that do so.

ANyone?

[B.Tunks]

In my understanding it is the rapid concentration of a large amount of force on a small area (which may even result in putting a hole in that target). Kevin is right - it comes from sword terminology and is something like a flicking stab (but different from a thrusting stab - 'ci').

BT

[mooyingmantis]

Kevin & Brendan,

Wonderful insights! Thank you both for sharing!

[iunojupiter]

Originally Posted by B.Tunks

In my understanding it is the rapid concentration of a large amount of force on a small area (which may even result in putting a hole in that target). Kevin is right - it comes from sword terminology and is something like a flicking stab (but different from a thrusting stab - 'ci').

BT

And funny how putting a dot into a letter/character is like a flicking stab.

It's all perception and interpretation. In the end, I think that as long as you understand the intention behind your own description, you can call it/describe it however you like.

Sadly, we'll never know the original meaning behind the naming conventions, as we cannot interview the people that gave the names to the moves. We don't know what they meant, which leaves us discussing all these nifty ideas... which in a way, is helping us vocalize how we interpret the move and share our insights with each other.

Personally, I like the dot reference, because to me, it's like putting a period at the end of a sentence. I pull off this particular beng chui, my sentence is over.

Cheers,
Josh

[-N-]

Dian is not just a dot. There isn't really an english word that is a good translation.

Dian is its own thing. And you have to know it in terms of the feel of the brush stroke for creating a dian.

It is a small, quick, precise, and finesseful kind of stroke. There is a small initial contact followed by an accelerated spiral into heavier contact, which immediately lightens and trails off. Sometimes you are writing several dian in rapid succession.

In striking, dian is not crashing or penetrating with a lot of follow through. It is more like a feint that has surface contact. Then you can follow with a change in attack such as a kick.

Dian is more like a very precise touch. To the point that you are reading feedback even as you are applying the stroke or motion.

(In sword, if you dian the carotid artery, I suppose you don't really need a followup )

[-N-]

My impression is that both the brush stroke and the spear/sword stroke refer to the same concept of dian.

As for whether dian came originally from caligraphy or weapons...

[-N-]

Originally Posted by -N-

(In sword, if you dian the carotid artery, I suppose you don't really need a followup )

Well ok, if you continue with the calligraphy theme...

You can dian to draw a reaction which you control to create an opening for piet, the 4th stroke here: http://www.chinavoc.com/arts/calligr...ightstroke.asp

[holymantis]

all i can say is again WOW.
you guys make it look so dam easy.................

[mooyingmantis]

Whether used as a brush stroke, sword strike, spear thrust, stepping action, or backfist strike, I think we all agree that the term refers to a quick, flicking type of short strike. Thus, each interpretation conjures the same frame of reference for understanding the nature of the strike.

Great discussion guys!

[mooyingmantis]

Here is the last part of the quanpu for Zhai Yao Yi Lu:

Movement Thirty
回 身 崩 点 变 玉 环
huí shēn bēng dian biàn yù huán
Turn Body, Crashing Dot Becomes Jade Ring

Movement Thirty-one
起 身 隔 肘 至 膝
qi shēn yòu gé zhì xī
Raise Body, Divide Elbow to Knee

Movement Thirty-two
海 底 取 宝
hai di qu bao
Take Treasure from Sea Bottom

Movement Thirty-three
进 步 玉 女 绣 花
jing bu yu nu xiù huā
Advance Step, Jade Maiden Embroiders

Movement Thirty-four
阳 钩 底 叫
yáng gōu di jiào
Yang Hook Provokes at the Bottom

Movement Thirty-five
插 捶 护 眼 打
chā chuí hù yan da
Insert Strike, Eye Protecting Strike

Movement Thirty-six
搓 掌 打
cuō zhang da
Rubbing Palms Strike

Movement Thirty-seven
闭 手 挺 身
bì shou ting shēn
Close Hands, Straighten Body

Movement Thirty-eight
玉 女 过 桥
yu nu guò qiáo
Jade Maiden Crosses Bridge

Movement Thirty-nine
左 封 右 崩 捶
zuo fēng yòu bēng chuí
Left Seal, Right Crashing Strike

Movement Forty
钩 打 掌 手 雷
gōu da zhang shou léi
Hook Strike, Thunder Palm Hand

Movement Forty-one
电 张 手
diàn zhāng shou
Lightning Spreading Hand

Movement Forty-two
霹 雷 掌
pī léi zhang
Thunder Palm

Movement Forty-three
顺 风 扫 叶
shùn fēng sao yè
The Wind Sweeps the Leaves

Movement Forty-four
仙 人 取 发
xiān rén qu fà
Immortal Takes Hair

Movement Forty-five
收 势
shōu shì
Gathering Posture

[mooyingmantis]

Mantis includes the four core concepts of fighting:
1. 打 - dǎ - Striking
2. 踢 - tī - Kicking
3. 摔 - shuāi - Throwing
4. 拿 - ná - Holding

Here are three examples of overt 擒 拿 - qín ná - seizing & holding techniques found in Zhai Yao Yi Lu:

Movement Seven
左 搓 捶 右 頓 肘
zuǒ cuō chuí yòu dùn zhǒu
Left Rubbing Strike, Right Stopping Elbow

The rubbing strike is used as a wrist locking or breaking technique.

Movement Thirty-three
进 步 玉 女 绣 花
jìn bù yù nǚ xiù huā
Advance Step, Jade Maiden Embroiders

This is a combined elbow/shoulder locking technique. It is similar to the shiho-nage technique of Aikido.

Movement Thirty-four
阳 钩 底 叫
yáng gōu dǐ jiào
Yang Hook, Provoke Bottom

This is similar to the kote-gaeshi technique of Jujutsu.