Shaolin Temple & Buddhism

[Citong Shifu]

I was wondering if any of you were aware that throughout Shaolin's 1500 year history, Buddhism "WAS NOT" the only religion / philosophy taught or practiced?

"Maybe not in recent years", but confisianism, daoism, confisian/daoist hybrid mixes, muslim, etc all had been the doctrines of the Shaolin Temple. Even christianity has seen its day at the S. Temple...

The reason I bring this up is that Modern Shaolin Temple (PRC & SS) has shoveled this under the rug, so to speak, and have forbid others to speak the truth concerning this issue.

Just curious about this.

CS

[B-Rad]

Nope, had no idea. Any reliable sources in English for reading up on this, or am I pretty much out of luck until my Chinese gets better?

[r.(shaolin)]

The reason I bring this up is that Modern Shaolin Temple (PRC & SS) has shoveled this under the rug, so to speak, and have forbid others to speak the truth concerning this issue.

I don't know about Muslim but, "Confucian /Daoist / Buddhist hybrid(s)" are very much part of Shaolin and Chan history. There is either some sensitivities or some monks simply just don't know the history and background of Chan. Here is how one Shaolin monk replied to me:

"Taoists and Buddhist were NEVER kept friendships like brothers of the same sect. Their teachings are totally opposite, so this was not possible. I will not expand more on this subject due to the complexity everyone’s refer to."

Why do you say forbidden?
r.

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by r.(shaolin)

I don't know about muslim(ism) but "confisian /daoist / Buddhist hybrid(s)" are very much part of Shaolin and Chan history. There is either some sensitivities or some of the monks there just don't know. Here is how one Shaolin monk replied to me:


Why do you say "forbid"?
r.

r.(shaolin),
I will explain more (forbid) a little later. I want to see what some of the other replies are first. For very good reasons.

On Shaolin monk's reply - "Buddhism & Daoism are completely opposite". Only in the aspects of "religion", but their philosophies are the same, only worded different...??????.... Believe it or not... This is not hard to prove unless one is caught up on the "religion".... ???????????

Anyway, Lets hear some other replies first. Surely this isn't the first time this has been brought up...

CS

[bawang]

buddhism and taoism are somewaht similar,
unorthodox: (pure land buddhism and folk taoism both have gods and paradise
orthodox: buddhists reach nirvana while taoists reach the "void"

"Only in the aspects of "religion", but their philosophies are the same, only worded different"
their philosophies are the same but they ARE religions, hence different

taoists worship the immortals and taiji qiankun emperor, buddhists worship luohans and buddhas, so they have rival gods.

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by bawang

buddhism and taoism are somewaht similar,
unorthodox: (pure land buddhism and folk taoism both have gods and paradise
orthodox: buddhists reach nirvana while taoists reach the "void"

"Only in the aspects of "religion", but their philosophies are the same, only worded different"
their philosophies are the same but they ARE religions, hence different

taoists worship the immortals and taiji qiankun emperor, buddhists worship luohans and buddhas, so they have rival gods.

Thats my point, "religion". This will make more sense real soon. Bare with me..

CS.

[NJM]

Originally Posted by Citong Shifu

Bare with me..

No thanks, it's a bit chilly in here.

I have heard that these religions were all practiced at the temple at one time, I believe it to be true. Though, I don't think Christianity played so large a part.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Citong Shifu

"Maybe not in recent years", but confisianism, daoism, confisian/daoist hybrid mixes, muslim, etc all had been the doctrines of the Shaolin Temple. Even christianity has seen its day at the S. Temple...

they have all been "the doctrines of the shaolin temple"? you mean the monks there have once even held christianity as their doctrine?

it may have been wrong wording, but i dont agree with that at all.

basically, my view on the topic is this:

shaolin temple, at its founding was of nikaya buddhism with batuo, then chan buddhism with damo's lineage, and from the song dynasty until now it was of caodong chan with fuyu's lineage.

regardless of who may have visited and mingled or even took up residence, it did not interfere with these lineages- the only lineages recognized in shaolin temple history. what that means is that no one can officially take over the temple and change its doctrine without the previous lineage ending- such as when damo introduced chan, which the monks adopted, while nikaya buddhism faded.

it matters not who forces their way in and what they practice and/or teach. if it is not officially adopted as the new doctrine and a new lineage takes over while the previous ends, its simply something that floated around the temple- never to take root.

it has always been a buddhist temple. whether nikaya buddhism for 32 years, or chan buddhism and caodong chan until now. even if you acknowledge yongxin's new monks hired from pureland temples to portray a buddhist image. still, pureland is buddhist.

its simply impossible for a temple to represent three or more different religions at once too, as i've heard said. i find that highly illogical.

and my view on buddhism and daosim is that their philosophies are not quite the same. that becomes clearly evident when either path is not merely studied but lived to any significant level. which i say based on my own experience.

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by LFJ

they have all been "the doctrines of the shaolin temple"? you mean the monks there have once even held christianity as their doctrine?

it may have been wrong wording, but i dont agree with that at all.

basically, my view on the topic is this:

shaolin temple, at its founding was of nikaya buddhism with batuo, then chan buddhism with damo's lineage, and from the song dynasty until now it was of caodong chan with fuyu's lineage.

regardless of who may have visited and mingled or even took up residence, it did not interfere with these lineages- the only lineages recognized in shaolin temple history. what that means is that no one can officially take over the temple and change its doctrine without the previous lineage ending- such as when damo introduced chan, which the monks adopted, while nikaya buddhism faded.

it matters not who forces their way in and what they practice and/or teach. if it is not officially adopted as the new doctrine and a new lineage takes over while the previous ends, its simply something that floated around the temple- never to take root.

it has always been a buddhist temple. whether nikaya buddhism for 32 years, or chan buddhism and caodong chan until now. even if you acknowledge yongxin's new monks hired from pureland temples to portray a buddhist image. still, pureland is buddhist.

its simply impossible for a temple to represent three or more different religions at once too, as i've heard said. i find that highly illogical.

and my view on buddhism and daosim is that their philosophies are not quite the same. that becomes clearly evident when either path is not merely studied but lived to any significant level. which i say based on my own experience.

I never said that these religions/philosophies were "represented at one time". Its understood that Buddhism has played the biggest role at Shaolin, but not the only role throughout its history... Furthermore, new doctorines were formed and ended, these lineage have been destroyed and kept hidden for many years. Shaolin like PRC cant let the lineage have holes. Everyone knows that in order to show purity, the lineage must not be distorted at all....

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Citong Shifu

I never said that these religions/philosophies were "represented at one time".

you said they all had been "the doctrine of shaolin temple". i disagree. they may have been there, but were never the doctrine of the shaolin temple.

Shaolin like PRC cant let the lineage have holes.

really? why not? what has shaolin got to hide? the dharma can be picked up and set down by anyone at anytime.

everyone knows there have been periods where the temple was without an abbot, when various monks acted as abbot. but the dharma doesnt have holes.

this is chan, who cares?!

Everyone knows that in order to show purity, the lineage must not be distorted at all....

and what is this purity, and why is it so important? and who cares?!

The point I'm making here is that one does not have to be or practice Buddhism to become highly skilled or master Shaolin Kungfu...

if this is your only point you've been waiting to make, its kind of late. everyone knows that.

Shaolin Temple has had a mix of doctorines throughout its history and kungfu development

the shaolin temple had a mix of doctrines enter, just like that tibetan monk i know who holds tibetan buddhist services at a christian church. but just like the doctrine "of that church" remains of christianity despite whatever else has a presence there, the shaolin temple has always been a buddhist temple.

and none of these religions/philosophies made the kungfu of shaolin or monk any better at the martial arts

a statement made of your own observation or assumption? a philosophy that trains one to understand and control their mind would definitely help bring about improvement with greater focus in training. and why not?

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?

Now, especially through Songshan lineage, they completely mislead the world with these types of statements.

thats a crock, my friend. no one has made such a statement. you have simply misunderstood the point.

i'm reminded of the shaolin ulysses documentary where shi xinghong was talking about shi suxi asking him how he thought his gongfu was. shi xinghong naturally said "not bad, pretty good"- to which shi suxi replied saying he thought xinghong would never become a really great practitioner. the reason being because his "heart was not silent enough, it was floating".

thats the reason! when you realize that and learn how to silence your heart and plant your feet on the ground you will immediately improve a great deal. suxi said nothing about "buddhism". he didnt say because you havent studied the buddha's word enough.

he said simply because his heart was not silent, it was floating.

and any path which leads to silencing the heart and planting ones feet on the ground will improve ones gongfu and allow them to reach a higher level of mastery.

so basically, your whole idea for this thread was way late. and you've misinterpreted much, or else were just misinformed.

but it was not unimportant nor unnecessary. so thanks for starting such a thread as a great reminder!

peace!

[Pk_StyLeZ]

Originally Posted by LFJ

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?

i agree with this
emotional status does affect one training A LOT
usually students who are happy.....train much more harder and actually try to learn.....
students who are mad..just use their power like crazy and go all out
students who are sad...usually..dont try in class...and look so down...and lost..and just dont giv a rat ass.....
this is what i noticed

[richard sloan]

well, speaking as a member of the Songshan lineage, the revelation expressed here in the first post in the thread is ummm...a little moot...and not quite right. I certainly couldn't agree with it being said that cross pollination and sharing of concepts and ideas between Buddhists at Shaolin and others is 'hidden' knowledge, it certainly is not forbidden knowledge I would say it is rather public. But who the hell knows these days- r.Shaolin's monk, I'd like to know who that was. I think it's important to remember that just because someone took vows that might not mean their information is correct- yet, lol...in fact I just met a few of Yong Xin's disciples who had to be instructed to return "Amitabha" with an 'Amitabha.'

Anyway you can walk into our temple and see a wall scroll bearing a tripartate figure- buddha, lao tzu, and confucious. The artwork comes from Shaolin. I'm sure I have posted a pic of this in the forum before because when I first saw it I was quite taken with the image. It's pretty cool looking.

There are temples all over the place around Shaolin, a Daoist temple often sheltered monks during the CR, and vice versa. They participated in each others ceremonies and if you look you can find pictures of this...

Anyway anyone who has access to Shaolin would or should know there was this kind of exchange and I seriously doubt there is any kind of conspirational directive regarding the matter. It's quite open knowledge.

[richard sloan]

Originally Posted by LFJ

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?

hence the cultivation of no mind and the flat heart, why hui ke was taken to drum mountain.

[Citong Shifu]

Originally Posted by LFJ

you said they all had been "the doctrine of shaolin temple". i disagree. they may have been there, but were never the doctrine of the shaolin temple.



really? why not? what has shaolin got to hide? the dharma can be picked up and set down by anyone at anytime.

everyone knows there have been periods where the temple was without an abbot, when various monks acted as abbot. but the dharma doesnt have holes.

this is chan, who cares?!



and what is this purity, and why is it so important? and who cares?!



if this is your only point you've been waiting to make, its kind of late. everyone knows that.



the shaolin temple had a mix of doctrines enter, just like that tibetan monk i know who holds tibetan buddhist services at a christian church. but just like the doctrine "of that church" remains of christianity despite whatever else has a presence there, the shaolin temple has always been a buddhist temple.



a statement made of your own observation or assumption? a philosophy that trains one to understand and control their mind would definitely help bring about improvement with greater focus in training. and why not?

its a proven fact that emotional states have effects on motor skills. try balancing drills, strength exercises, or even flexibility training when upset. you'll find your training will not be as effective and your coordination will be off. do you know anything about how the brain works and connects everything from emotions to motor skills?



thats a crock, my friend. no one has made such a statement. you have simply misunderstood the point.

i'm reminded of the shaolin ulysses documentary where shi xinghong was talking about shi suxi asking him how he thought his gongfu was. shi xinghong naturally said "not bad, pretty good"- to which shi suxi replied saying he thought xinghong would never become a really great practitioner. the reason being because his "heart was not silent enough, it was floating".

thats the reason! when you realize that and learn how to silence your heart and plant your feet on the ground you will immediately improve a great deal. suxi said nothing about "buddhism". he didnt say because you havent studied the buddha's word enough.

he said simply because his heart was not silent, it was floating.

and any path which leads to silencing the heart and planting ones feet on the ground will improve ones gongfu and allow them to reach a higher level of mastery.

so basically, your whole idea for this thread was way late. and you've misinterpreted much, or else were just misinformed.

but it was not unimportant nor unnecessary. so thanks for starting such a thread as a great reminder!

peace!

I dont want to go "tit for tat", but Shaolin (PRC) has much to hide and will continue to hiding the true facts. Purity, well modern Shaolin Temple has started this debate. As far as a philosophy that trains one's mind, I agree. I believe this is very important. My comment was made due to the restrictions placed on what philosophy/ies could be used...

Example - I also train and teach Ziranmen which is daoist. My sifu was a private disciple of Wan laishen. Now, when I first strarted training ZRM and its philosophy I quickly learned learned that 99% of the difference between my Shaolin and ZRM was strategy/ies. Sure, the philosophy was different but only by wording (like when two people are discussing the same thing but in diferent ways)... I guess one could totally take them in two different directions, of course, but the goal is to maintain simplicity.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Citong Shifu

Shaolin (PRC)

if thats what you're talking about then, i find it odd. because "shaolin (prc)" makes a very strange title.

to me, and in the hearts of many traditional monks, disciples and students of shaolin temple, this "prc shaolin" is not shaolin at all. its just like saying those sausages sold under the shaolin name were shaolin.

modern shaolin is the same as the old shaolin. just like the dharma can wear many colors, have many expressions. but essentially it is unchanged and remains the same. shaolin, to us, is a path of dharma. therefore a path of simplicity.

this "prc shaolin" is a movement, not a path. a movement may need to uphold some image and cover its tracks. but a path is meant to be clear. and it is.

and paths may cross, but as richard says, its always out in the open.

my advice: if you want to know the fact of what shaolin is, dont follow the "prc shaolin" movement- follow the path.