Chi in Wing Chun

[churn-ging]

Do any of you on this forum believe that there is chi within wing chun? If so, do any of you practice the forms with this in mind? Also, did your teacher ever talk about the internal aspects of wing chun and do you know of any sifus that do understand the internal side?

I am wondering because the more that I am learning about wing chun, the more I want to explore the internal side of it. Don't get me wrong though, I am still into learning how to fight with it, but the internal aspects are just really interesting to me. Any help would be appreciated, like links or books.

Thanks

P.S. I've asked my sifu and he doesn't know anything about it. He's asked his sifu and he doesn't believe in it. :(

[old jong]

Hello.
Many consider that Wing Chun is both internal and external. We could say that the first part of SLT has a chi (Or internal) developing aspect.
We could also say that chi is everywhere in life.
Wing Chun does not depend on that idea to be effective or interresting. Call it "Chi" or call it effective motions throught relaxation, body alignement and unity and preciseness. The results are there, solids and tangibles.
;)

[whippinghand]

For the most part, Wing Chun has not appeared to put much emphasis on chi development and control, aside from the whole "intention" concept that many sifus preach about in SLT.
"Let your mind move the tan sau" is a load, which does not illustrate much, or any understanding of this concept.

Though Wing Chun may not necessarily depend on the concept of chi to be "effective or interesting", it will improve your Wing Chun, if you train it. Knowing about it and interchanging the word "chi" with "body alignment" and "relaxation" is not enough.

[old jong]

I was sure I was going to get an enlighted correction from you Whippinghand!...Thanks!...
Oh! BTW...Could you please (If it's not too much to ask) Share with us How you train "IT"...(I assume you train it if you talk about it!)

[whippinghand]

No. But thank you for the compliment. I know that your pretense of not needing answers is just a cover up for the fact that you look up to me for them.

[old jong]

That short answer must be the sign of a great knowledge! ;)
Why talk about something you dont want to talk about?...:confused:

[vingtsunstudent]

hey whippy my wing chun brother
that was very thought provoking, although i do seem to be missing the piont.(but that's what you get with someone with as little knowledge as me)
but anyways keep up those solid answers & i'm sure you'll have everyone converted to your way of thinking in no time.
;)
vts
ps i was typing this when your only answer was no.
i much prefer the edited version though
old jong, my god man, i thought you were more in love with me

[old jong]

Ha! Ha! Ha!:D
That's the best one you ever said!...Hey How come you and Roy are never on line at the same time?...Like Batman and Bruce Wayne maybe? ;)

[whippinghand]

Laugh all you want, Ol Jong. I'm sure everyone on the forum realizes it's true, but won't say so, out of fear of being accused of trapping.

[vingtsunstudent]

hey old jong & whippy
excuse my ignorance(and laziness for not bothering to look) but how far from toronto to montreal.
it seems to me like you pair could hook up for a blind date or something.
i know that i would personally like to here if there really is love in the air.
vts

[old jong]

You know ,in a sense I like whippinghand!...I'm sure he likes me also!...Hey! We're both in Wing Chun! That should be enough!;)

[old jong]

That "trapping" quote is for me the proof of your true mind Whip!...I like that! You have a real sense of humor. :D

[old jong]

Hey, I'm working early tomorrow so...Good night!

[Rill]

Hi,

I'm about 6'3", blue eyes, well toned..

Oh, sorry.. I thought this was a chat room for sweaty old men typing one handed for a second, not a forum for kung fu.

In relation to the original question, I've never been taught any concept of chi when training. This is not to say we're not using it, perhaps we just simply aren't aware of it.

The closest I've ever knowingly come was trying to use Tsui Seung Tin's concepts of Nim Lik when doing Sil Lim Tao.. someone posted the article in question a while ago.

[vingtsunstudent]

Rill
is it correct of me to presume that you come from tony's school.
vts

[Zantesuken]

virtually all martial arts have internal training in them. Wing Chun has it to but it's not to the degree that internal styles like Tai Chi have. Shaolin, Wing CHun, Hung Gar all that has internal stuff. Especially Hung Gar. Wing Chun I guess the chi applies to your punch because of close range and explosive power but then again you can develop it into fa-jing and get Bruce Lee's inch power thing. bha hahah

[EmptyCup]

:(

whippy, why is it that everytime I step out of here for a little bit that I come back to find that you have aggrevated other forum members? have you no loyalty? you're only supposed to fight with me!!!

anyways, does wing chun have chi? nope. it has "intention" but no chi that is developed through our techniques nor chi that can be utilized during an actual fight. I am talking about Yip Man wing chun here since I have heard that Shaolin versions might have some internal aspects...

For those who continually argue that wing chun has chi and this or that, try fighting advanced Hung Gar or Mantis practioners. Hung Gar fighters can break your arms or legs just from chi and a little bit of "ging". I Wing Chun artist I know also did Hung Gar before. A Wing Chun guy tired to enter on his sifu with the front leg making contact with the sifu's front leg. As soon as the wing chun guy touched it, he flew back and his leg was broken. That's tid seen kuen for you :eek:

There are also mantis masters who can literally shred the wood off of wooden dummies from their "ging". That's b/c it's chi-based. Wing Chun is a great system and all but we're pretty limited in terms of being "complete". We lack ground-fighting, locking, weapons (only have two), and chi. True, some of these might not be needed, but having them wouldn't hurt :)

[S.Teebas]

I believe there is. I dont know to what degree chi, or energy or this strong level of awarness compares to the likes of of other arts (such as the renound 3 majorly known internal styles: Tai Chi, Baguazhang and Xingyi [i have heard these are on another level altogether]). But I believe it exists.

I think, however that WC is such a gret system that it can be effective even without the idea of chi being trained. (but i feel it can be better with the idea trained).

It is no secret that TST's approach is internal, and his feats (ie the amazing amounts of force he can absorb and the size of people he can handle with ease is testomony to this) I know many people believe they are tricks etc... but I believe otherwise. My sifu learnt under TST and is a female that can handle men many times stronger than herself.... Do you think thats internal? Make up you own mind! (and even if they are tricks...i want to learn these tricks) :D :D

[yuanfen]

virtually all martial arts have internal training in them.

((Survey research??))

Wing Chun I guess the chi applies to your punch because of close range and explosive power but then again you can develop it into fa-jing and get Bruce Lee's inch power thing. bha hahah

((((You got the last exclamation right. !!!!)))

[reneritchie]

Wing Chun is a Southern Chinese martial art, and as such doesn't really employ the "Neijia" language of the North in talking about what they do. So, while you'll see references to Hei (Qi/Chi in Cantonese), such as "internally cultivate one breath of air", or "breathe deeply and conserve the Hei", you won't see the same academic or complex Hei/Qi stuff you find in arts like Taijiquan, etc. Likewise, you'll see references to Noi-Gung (Neigong) rather than Noi-Ga (Nei-jia).

Wing Chun is also a product of a time and place where survival was more important than in some earlier, more peaceful times and places where beauty and health were the focus. Since it is a Chinese MA, based on centuries of what came before, however, if you study TCM and Qigong, you can probably find a lot of things in WCK to explore.

Rgds,

RR

[churn-ging]

So do you guys think that if I were to study some qigong then I would be able to discover some of the chi building elements in wing chun? I have actually been thinking about studying some type of qigong just to understand the chi concept more. Do any of you have any suggestions on what type I should learn?

[yuanfen]

For martial purposes if you do wing chun steadily and intentionally
with the first section slowly over a period of time chi building and chi flow will take care of itself. Whether you do additional chi gung is a separate more health related question IMO(based on experience- not literature or authority).

[EmptyCup]

If you study chi gung with good techniques and a GOOD teacher of course you will be able to experience chi. However that does not mean you will be able to apply it to wing chun. You won't know how to use it and if you try wrong you might actually harm yourself.

I do chi gung and I can control my chi. However, I only know how to use it for health benefits and not fighting. I would like to use it for fighting though but don't know how! :)

In systems that use chi, only advanced practioners are allowed to do it. Novices can seriously injure themselves. And this is after years of experimenting and pioneering done by masters. You could try this in wing chun and open up future doors for other practioners but that's at your own risk :p If advancement of science is your calling then by all means do this and let us all know what becomes of it!!! :) I'm too cautious to do it myself...

P.S.

yuenfan may have a point. Although the best way to get chi "rolling along" is by full lotus meditation, most kung fu systems use "jam jong" or standing still postures to develop the flow such as tai chi. Since sil lim tau is done so slowly in the first section, chi could begin to flow from it (while time drags on :p )

I however, never have felt chi while doing any wing chun form but have when doing tai chi forms. But then again, many people just don't feel it. Tai chi people who have done it for decades might not even feel it. I meditated before so it helped with the tai chi by giving me a shortcut...

[fgxpanzerz]

William Cheung wrote a book entitled, "How to develop Chi Power." I have this book. It's based on Wing chun movements. The book is a load of crock to me but some of it seems interesting. I asked someone about the book and he said that all it really is is watered down TCM. Who knowz. BUy the book from Borders and keep the receipt in case u dont like it.

[EmptyCup]

This post has been deleted for using profanity.
Sandman[Wing Chun]

[hunt1]

No chi in WC?LOL.

I must agree with WH and YF.

As Rene pointed out just because WC doesnt use the same terminology doesnt mean internal concepts are not trained.
Just because your teacher did not talk about,teach or know them doesnt mean they do not exist.

From the beginning of SLT onward WC trains both external and internal(to use common labels) simultaneously.

SLT trains energy build up.Once at BJ you learn to move energy to your fingers.The weapons teach energy projection beyond your fingers into the weapon.Hence the goal of making the plum flower with each pole movement.When people talk of using chi in combat dont they usually refer to projecting chi out from the body?

.How do you move chi through the body?MENTAL INTENT.Mental intent is also trained beginning in SLT.How do you use elbow ging etc?mental intent.

[EmptyCup]

mental intent is NOT chi. It's not a question about using different "terms" to describe the same thing. They ARE NOT the same thing. If you think that Wing Chun's "ging" with intention is the same as other "ging" with chi then you have not been yet exposed to real chi...

wing chun has no chi. period. it's simply not a part of our system. sure, there are sifus who say that wing chun encompasses grappling, locking and such but you can make anything up! and even if they were in our system but somehow "hidden" :rolleyes: or not taught, they are pale imitations of the other styles that have things such as those as integral parts of their systems...

[EmptyCup]

Sandman, would it have been better if I just said

"uh oh

bring up William Cheung's name in this forum and it's really going to hit the fan.

Dave and Sandman, you have a lot of work up ahead :p" ???

I thought we were all adults here capable of hearing a simple expression that was already censored...but had to be further censored...

[fgxpanzerz]

Wing Chun has grappling. Who decides what system has more advanced grappling or whatever? u? no way.

[Zantesuken]

nah man Wing CHun has GING which is partly chi. You're training your hips to move as well with Chum Kiu and stuff. Yes all asian martials do have internal aspect. Hungar someone talked about it. Wing CHun may no thave it to that degree but i guess it manifests itself as sensitivity because you're 'listening' to the other person's skin so when they move you can feel it

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
Sandman, would it have been better if I just said

"uh oh

bring up William Cheung's name in this forum and it's really going to hit the fan.



Short Answer: Yes.

The fact is that no, not everyone here is an adult. Last time I checked, there were a couple of people here in the 13-15yr old range (ex: Martial Joe). And not all adults consider the use of four letter words acceptable. Personally, I sound like a sailor when I talk, but I have enough respect for those that don't appreciate it to keep it out of here. That's really not too much to ask. Besides, I have every bit of faith in your ability to find more creatively descriptive ways of making your point clear. You've always seemed perfectly literate to me.

[dre_doggX]

The question is on what level. Do Sil lum tao as a qi-gong and standing meditation. Kungfu should be done with out qi. I dont feel like talking to much so here are the links

www.wingchunkungfu.com ( they go some stuff on the matter)

and on the e magzine

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=23

but its not just qi you need to woory about.

Shen(Mind) leads yi(Intent) leads qi(vital force) , qi leads fa-jing(emiiting froce or movement).

Allow martial arts is the same. Yes it is and no its not. on sport level no. On medical level, maybe not that much. get to the Philosophy(close) but get to the art, yes martial art. Look deep as you can into Boxing , and you will see
JUDO.
look deep into Karate, and you can see Tai Chi Chuan.

with a Straight Punch of Wing CHun drain out all you can from its motions, structure theory, you can get Taekwondo or at least an aspect.
but aspect, purpose and adapting is all you need to shift back and forth the martial gene pool.

the answers to dao or zen me lie in the kick you see at a Taekwondo tourment , some 11 year old did.

ART , Martial ART, its an ART.

[EmptyCup]

sandman -

yes, I suppose that there are 13 year olds out there that need to be censored from variations of the word feces...and yes there are ways around it. That was the first time I used so-called foul language in a post since it was an expression I thought it wouldn't hurt.

Zantesuken -

sensitivity is NOT chi. I don't understand why people constantly try to mix two different things together. If people do not know what chi IS, why do they constantly try to make assumptions about it? Or generalize it into something that it is not? Chi is not "listening". Chi is a force. A energy form that can be used for healing or for hurting. It is what allows people to perform feats that normal biological or physical processes as we understand them, cannot explain. It is NOT "mind over matter". You may be able to break granite with your head by believing strongly that you can. But you will bleed to death. There is something else that prevents you from injuring yourself in the process. Saying it is willpower or sensitivity is not correct.

fgxpanzerz -

It's funny how most wing chun people assume that our stand-up fighting skillls are pretty much at the top compared to judo or ju-jitsu. That's b/c hands and toe-to-toe fighting is our specialty. You can believe that wing chun has superior grappling skills to systems that center around grappling if you wish. Though if you through a guy into the ring trained solely in wing chun against a ju-jitsu artist with the same number of years experience and size, and told the WC guy to use strictly WING CHUN "grappling techniques", I doubt he would even be able to get out of the guard or a mount. Probably get his arm broken or choked out within seconds. Come to think of it, grappling is practically non-existent in our style. We can't even claim to encompass it. What type have you learned and from which sifu may I ask? Chances are they are from a non wing chun source...

[fgxpanzerz]

just cuz yor sifu hasnt taught u any grappling, it doesnt mean grappling doesnt exist in Wing Chun. And why the heck would u grapple with a grappler? Striking is superior to grappling, IMHO. And there's a ton of striking in Wing Chun. Why not strike a grappler? Whoever is better at what he or she does will win. The pheonix eye fist can be used for nasty grapples but not the kind u see in ju jutsu. Ask yor sifu about it.

And I hope that your're aware that many of the southern styles have very similar movements. If there's grappling in one, Hung Gar for example, then chances are there's grappling in Wing Chun.

Speaking of WIng chun vs. grappling: did u know that Robert Chu and Hoyce Gracie were in a friendly competition once? Anyway, they both tried grappling and Hoyce won out cause Robert got tackled or something. THen they both broke out into their respective talents and Hoyce charged Robert to try and tackle him again. Robert merely sidestepped him and pheonix eye fisted him in the neck and nocked Hoyce out cold.

Take that!

[Rill]

vts - Yes, I am a student of Toni's.

dre_doggX - Could you perhaps elaborate on how you can remove everything from a wc punch and have the same thing as a tkd punch? If you're talking about the fact that besides the underlying principles behind each then they're both striking someone with a fist then I get it.. but if not, you're going to need to explain it to me :)

Personally, I don't consider wc a martial art. Martial, yes. But it's more of a skill that you can constantly improve on regardless of your mental or physical capabilities as opposed to something that you can have a born gift for and do naturally from the time you start formal training.

[EmptyCup]

fgxpanzerz -

1) I isolated grappling b/c of your statement as to who decides which system has better grappling. I was trying to make a point that grappling centered systems have better grappling than wing chun. I think that is a fair assumption (and true from what I've seen)

2) striking is superior to grappling b/c our system is striking based. Yet we don't always have a choice in matters. If a wing chun guy went to the floor and only had wing chun to rely on, he wouldn't be in a very good position

3) nobody said you can't strike a grappler but as you can see from UFC and other NHB events that the armchair striker's vision that hitting a grappler will instantly stop them is not very realistic. Many grapplers can also take the hit and then take your arm after. I have seen this happen to wing chun guys. By the way, the phoenix eye fist is not a wing chun technique. Thought you should know that...

4) I am familiar with Hung Gar. My grandfather and a cousin are hung gar masters. I have also sparred w/ other Hung Gar practioners

5) I hope YOU'RE aware that many southern systems such as Choy Lee Fut and Hung Gar as you mentioned are more complete systems than wing chun in terms of training all aspects of combat. Whether that be chin na, pressure points, weapons, chi gung, etc...

6) I assume you're talking about ROYCE Gracie? The UFC 3 time champion? Robert Chu beat him up by knocking him out with ONE HIT??? I like reading Robert's articles but d.amn he should have gone to UFC or K-1 and represented Wing Chun and Bak Mei :D

I await your replies ;)

[EmptyCup]

you wouldn't be a classmate of CanadianBaddAss or Martial Joe would you??? :p that "take that" line made me think back to the days when I was a young kid...sigh...

[diego]

?

[yuanfen]

5) I hope YOU'RE aware that many southern systems such as Choy Lee Fut and Hung Gar as you mentioned are more complete systems than wing chun in terms of training all aspects of combat. Whether that be chin na, pressure points, weapons, chi gung, etc...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I sure am not aware of that... and for good reason...because
IMO thats not true! Sufficient exposure to wing chun orients one to self control and controlling the opponent....that includes flowing from striking to throwing to breaking to chin na- whatever
is most possible ina given siutation... and with the right breath control and with a weapon in your hand if needed.
One's definition of an art is often dependent on what has been exposed to.......

[black and blue]

Sufficient exposure may well open up WC movements - there are, in any martial art, a multitude of applications to a given technique/motion.

What drives me nuts is this constant reply pattern we get. Someone says other arts are more complete, and Wing Chunners quickly post to say: "No... that's not the case!"

I seldom see wc students practise from the mount, and this is a common situation you find yourself in when in a scuffle. You get knocked down and, if you're not being kicked in the face, your opponent jumps on top and tries to punch your teeth through the back of your head.

WC may have some grappling techniques, some weapons, some internal methods, but other arts often have more. I think that was the point of the previous post.

WC is certainly the art for me - I love it. But we must be honest about what WC is, and what it has to offer.

[whippinghand]

To suggest that Wing Chun is deficient in the above mentioned areas....? You guys are highly mislead, but understandably so.
Not everyone in the Wing Chun world could have inherited the complete system. So it is understandable that this thought is adopted.

It's okay to say, "Yes, Wing Chun is a complete system with in depth methods of training for all aspects of a martial art, such as ground fighting, chi na, weapons, etc. My sifu just doesn't know them, or my sifu just didn't teach me."

[black and blue]

I'm not saying WC isn't a 'complete' system. I'm not saying its principles can't be applied to fighting on the ground, or that it doesn't have locks.

What I am saying is that there are other martial arts that focus more heavily on certain areas (as is natural). Against a grappler I would try to stop being taken to the ground because that is his domain, not mine.

My point, in relation to a post relating to other systems with more locks and weapons etc, is that YES, while WC has much to offer, it doesn't focus on ground work.

Would you want to use your WC on the floor against a grappler, Whipping Hand? Would you not rather take the fight to him and prevent rolling on the floor with locks and chokes?

With regards WC instructors and the 'complete' system of WC, who is your sifu? Tell me about what you learn, how he (or she) teaches.

If there are people on this forum learning what others are not... tell us about it!

:)

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by black and blue
What I am saying is that there are other martial arts that focus more heavily on certain areas (as is natural). Against a grappler I would try to stop being taken to the ground because that is his domain, not mine. That's your deficiency not the system's.

A "martial artist" makes everywhere his doman.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by black and blue
If there are people on this forum learning what others are not... tell us about it! LOL! "Many are called. Few are chosen."

[black and blue]

LMAO :)

WH - you have certainly been selected! :D

I've developed a complex... I am lacking! Tonight I will train on the ground only... this may prove problematic as most people at the class will be standing, but i must addess my issues.

Do you Chi Sau on the ground as a rule :p

When I learn the pole I will also insist on using a chain against it and a Chinese broadsword. I will be lacking no longer I tell you!

Still don't know who your sifu is. You are an enigma WH! I will be more like you. I'm resolved. I will also train wearing a cloak, just in case I'm caught wearing one in the street. Wing Chun has it all like you say... my instructor must be pants for not showing me. I guess he's not been 'selected' either.

Canada is clearly a hot bed for Wing Chun (the true Wing Chun)... I must leave the beauty found in the South of England and travel to a colder coast.;)

[yuanfen]

[ black and blue sez.

WC is certainly the art for me - I love it. But we must be honest about what WC is, and what it has to offer. [/B][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am honest about wing chun which has spread very unevenly.
If you come to Tucson or Tempe there are folks ina friendly way to show you multiple uses in a friendly way. A well trained wc person(most arent) shouldnt end up on the ground... and if by being inattentive
or slipping ona banana peel or multiple adversaries

they do you can control peoples motions including mounting and punches because they have trained their structure and motion properly and in the mantime you are attcking with wing chun.I have had students who are good grapplers etc etc.They have all been shown the above. Honest injun!

[dre_doggX]

will lets look at the Wing Chun Punch in Sil Lum Tao.

you fist chambers at around the side of you rib cage. the turns 90 degrees.

but in Taekwondo it turns another 90 degrees(suppose to be at the last minute). releasing engery

but the Wing CHun punch is faster, you can pull in back for another one.

Palm strikes, look at the atantomy of the human body.

your upper body moves foward

well then Palm strikes or like Kicks
when you kick the lower body is foward slightly, waist pushing into the kick. and the sole of you foot is similar to the palm of you hand.

circular stepping in Wing Chun : just modify or raise the foot higher the you have a kick that is like teakwondo of north shaolin.

ofcourse its not emphaised no. But martial arts is theory , science and science can be anything.

I honestly believe that you can study Hungar, Praying Mantis or whatever. if you want to use its laws and principles to make bike.
cause Martial arts is philosophy and science and more(I think)
my opion

thanks for not being rude , I post the same thing on Carbonecho.com taekwondo forum and well what did you know
a bunch of 3 graders(they acted like it) got made at me.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by black and blue
[Canada is clearly a hot bed for Wing Chun (the true Wing Chun)... I must leave the beauty found in the South of England and travel to a colder coast.;) [/B]

Actually, it is!

LOL.

-BP-

[BeiKongHui]

:) Canada may be the WC hot bed but the US will take the gold in hockey. Great One or not. :)

[fgxpanzerz]

the "take that!" was only put in to see if my post would be deleted by sandworm or whatever his name is. I didnt mean anything by it.

1. Clf is more complete than wing chun? Every style has holes in it. I doubt many know the completed system of choy li fut today and I think it will die out with my generation or the next. Too many darn forms.

2. Does the pheonix eye fist have to be part of the system for u to be able to use it in a fight? no. But then again, it's in my slt so who knowz. There's no high kicks in wing chun either. Does that mean I cant kick high if need be? With any fighting system, u can use anything, as long as the timing is right.

3. ROYCE is pronounced Hoyce, isnt it? I spelled the name wrong but u knew what I meant. Did u know that Royce Gracie has a scam that he runs in the UFC. WEll, it's not really a scam. Shamrock, Dan Severyn, and others work for Royce. Royce sends them out to take out any good competition by winning or by breaking the guy's arm or something to foul him out. 60 matches go on a day. They only show the finals/semifinals on television. By the time Royce's guys are done with the good competition, there isnt anyone left that is really good in the finals. This had nothing to do with it but oh well. A little info never hurts.

4. I guess yor right about the grappling being better in ju jutsu, maybe. But is grappling the end all of everything? Whatever Wing chun supposedly lacks I might be able to fill in my Hung Gar training.

[Zantesuken]

the system isn't really designed for ground so it is designed to prevent you from keeping the ground. In a real street fight one of you'd probably end up on the ground but by that time it'd already be over.

The system was formulated by a girl and in old old school china where hardcore people fought like mad. If someone her mastery of it was good enough to keep her off the ground then it must mean that there is still more training for people to do.

I think Wing Chun is a complete system but it's not the system that makes the person great. You'll learn tan da, lap da all that stuff and chi sao. But when you do chi sau and stuff it's up to you to go about how you do things.

It's like I'll teach you to punch and it's up to you when you want to do it. Wing Chun for me is sorta like sifu gives me core principles and it's up to me on how i use them. If you can find a way to keep you off the ground then cooL!

[EmptyCup]

black and blue -

I'm glad somebody finally understands the point I am trying to make here!!! This is the same reaction I get when I criticize Christianity!!! No wonder wing chunners have the deserved reputation of thinking we are the highest and mightiest...we are arrogant, ignorant and too smug in our superior art :o

[WC may have some grappling techniques, some weapons, some internal methods, but other arts often have more. I think that was the point of the previous post.

WC is certainly the art for me - I love it. But we must be honest about what WC is, and what it has to offer.]

thank you for opening your eyes :)

whipping hand -

[Not everyone in the Wing Chun world could have inherited the complete system. So it is understandable that this thought is adopted.

It's okay to say, "Yes, Wing Chun is a complete system with in depth methods of training for all aspects of a martial art, such as ground fighting, chi na, weapons, etc. My sifu just doesn't know them, or my sifu just didn't teach me." ]

why must you once again do the "I am the chosen one" lame speech again? Since you are never willing to divulge any info about your lineage or sifu, why do expect people to listen to you? Don't answer with the "I don't care if you don't believe me. I know and that is enough" line b/c if you really thought that you wouldn't have opened your mouth to begin with right?

So back up your point. I hate it when martial artists constantly are hung up on who was taught the real deal and how the rest were fooled. Wing Chun was not taught completely to all students, I agree, but there are no such things as "secret techniques". All wing chun people know enough of the basic theory to use the system. Tan, Biu, Pow, Gang, Gum. The punch. I highly doubt any withheld information would be a whole unheard-of grappling side to the art or some ridiculous iron palm routine...

yip man might have known the complete system but my money would have been on bruce anyday...and he only learned the basics. It's not the system, it's HOW YOU TRAIN. Having the complete wing chun doesn't mean jack since almost all wing chun guys stick to straight up stand up brawling and nothing else. The End.

fgxpanzerz -

[Clf is more complete than wing chun? Every style has holes in it.]

same with ours.

[I doubt many know the completed system of choy li fut today]

same with any style. but what does "complete" mean? That you need the same style and have the same requirements as those in China a few hundred years ago? No change, no improvement? In that case, drive cars 20 years old and use water-bottle sized cell phones...

[and I think it will die out with my generation or the next. Too many darn forms.]

that's not going to happen. You're forgetting that a few million people practice it. And find it useful.

[Does the pheonix eye fist have to be part of the system for u to be able to use it in a fight? no.]

that's why wing chun can incorporate good things from OTHER styles just as you have incorporated the phoenix eye punch into your arsenal. If wing chun was so complete as it is, why add another type of punch?

btw, the whole Royce conspiracy thing I have heard already. Give me a break. The man has skill. If you don't believe it, challenege him. oh, and the sandman excuse sounds pretty lame :p

[EmptyCup]

I bet many of you don't even know that Yip Man and Yuen Kay San modified the wing chun they were taught. One big change was in chi sao...

yet all wing chun people keep on going on and on about "traditional" or "wing chun needs no changes"

if wing chun wasn't changed, it would never be this fast aggressive art that it is today. If martial arts needed no change, wing chun would not have been created in the first place

Zantesuken -

[The system was formulated by a girl and in old old school china where hardcore people fought like mad. If someone her mastery of it was good enough to keep her off the ground then it must mean that there is still more training for people to do. ]

Don't believe everything you hear...
;)

[Zantesuken]

Wing CHun was formulated by a girl...why do you think you push ur butt in? Girls naturally have that but guys hafta push it in to get the same results. I had to unlearn that part when I picked up Tai CHi

[yuanfen]

From Zantesuken's profile I do not know how much exposure to good wing chun he or she has had. But no matter. Wing
chun's primary function is not to fight on the ground. Assuming good teaching and learning wing chun's porpose is to give a fairly
through self defense education so that you can defend yourself by
understanding and adjusting to whatever platform you find ourself in- vertical, horizontal, circular, linear, staionary, moving-
in all these platforms--it's still you isnt it?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Empty Cups revelation that Yip Man and others changed wing chun.:_ Every good teacher on every good subject works on giving his own best interpretation of the subject while staying true to it's verifiable principles.... using the given- it's best to work on a dummy and avoid being one.(BTW I am not calling
any specific person a dummy)
----------------------------------------------
On breathing. Complicated subject. You dont hold your breath
in the slt but as you advance in it you learn to "watch" it
naturally. In some other kinds of chi gung there are different kinds of "pacing", "staggering" what may be even called temporary "holding". There is chi gung enough for martial purposes in the slt. Supplemetary good chi gung wont hurt- could help your health- but there are lots of fads in the chi gung world
and if you dont watch it lin kong ging will take you to the ground and destroy you without touching you.Looney tunes.Now thats a true submission art- might make it on Saturday night live(:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Zantesuken]

i don't know what you call 'good' wing chun but my sifu studied under yip man and stuff. Anyways yeah your stuff is true but most martial arts systems aren't designed for you to fight on your back so the systems probably do train you in some form or another to keep you off the ground. I was talkign to a senior guy about it and about charging and throwing. He says first when the guy charges you u can step out of the way, knee and other stuff. As for trying to throw you he says don't let him touch you and that's why you learn chi sau and stuff to control his hands . meh

[yuanfen]

It is not easy on the net to verbally and accurately describe evrything in wing chun. By throwing I decidely do not mean charging into someone grappling style to throw someone. That would be silly. But when martial contact takes place a wing chun person has all kinds of alternatives for striking, controlling, defecting, stopping, breaking and throwing with minimal muscle work. People whose development is in the fairly early stages often do not see the depth of wing chun and multiple applications of its principles. A wing chun structure when learnt well is verystrong, mobile and versatile-vertically and horizontally. Enough. Cheers..

[Zantesuken]

yeah but i think the wing chun guy would rather stay on his feet than on his/her back :p

[yuanfen]

Of course- I didnt say otherwise.It is better to be upright than prone but you should be able to handle yourself when prone with wing chun till you get back up. The ground is ok when its a mat or
pad as in matches- it can be a bad place in real situations and with more than one attacker.

[dre_doggX]

Ya he did modify it. and "if martial arts need no change Wing HCun wouldnt be mad e to begining with"
this is why I study Tai ji and theories or principles that are emphaised more in other martial arts like Yi-Quan(principles)
bye

[EmptyCup]

whip

yip man wasn't the only wing chun teacher. I figured you weren't from YIP MAN's lineage since your past posts have showed that your concepts and principles go against what he taught to his closed-door students. You claim to have a closed-door knowledge so I assumed your sifu learned from a non Yip source...

[whippinghand]

Your post suggests that you know and understand what was taught to his closed door students... Is this so? Highly unlikely.

Closed door knowledge, I do indeed have. Where it comes from... remains a mystery.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by yuanfen
On breathing. In some other kinds of chi gung there are different kinds of "pacing", "staggering" what may be even called temporary "holding". Indeed. I was not referring to deep sea diving preparation....

[yuanfen]

deep sea diving preparation? ha ha ha ha

[EmptyCup]

["Your post suggests that you know and understand what was taught to his closed door students... Is this so? Highly unlikely."]

your opinion has no basis. since you won't tell us where you background comes from, you could have been taught by David Carradine for all we know...

but the posts you have done in the past is contrary to Yip Man's teachings in Hong Kong

["Closed door knowledge, I do indeed have."]

if you say so. most likely you got the kwoon doors closed in your face knowledge

["Where it comes from... remains a mystery."]

are you trying to make me laugh? :D

[TjD]

in a previous post:

"WC may have some grappling techniques, some weapons, some internal methods, but other arts often have more. I think that was the point of the previous post."


i thought the whole point of wing chun is that less = more? :)

peace
travis

[black and blue]

I hasn't been easy my fellow Wing Chunners, but I've managed to establish the identity of Whipping Hand!!!:)

Canadian, closed door student, in possession of the finer points of WC.

Our friend is none other than the esteemed Rene Ritchie.:eek:

Deny it if you can WH! Who else can you be... other than Jim Carey:D

An alter ego for sure. By the by, Black and Blue isn't my real name don't you know. I'm Randy Williams! Well, in my dreams at least

:p

Empty Cup: Yes, it's true. We are the only two on the forum that seem to know what each other are getting at. Of course, this might mean we are both deluded, but coming from the same angle.:D

[Frank Exchange]

I very much doubt that WH is in fact Rene Ritchie. Despite the fact that they have crossed swords many times before on this forum, which would indicate a split personality type situation (Now theres a thought ;) ), Rene always comes across as:

1. Willing to explain, politely share knowledge, interested in others knowledge and viewpoints,

2. A gentleman.

WH does neither. :)

[yuanfen]

"An alter ego for sure. By the by, Black and Blue isn't my real name don't you know. I'm Randy Williams! Well, in my dreams at least "--------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Strange. I dont have bad dreams. I am who I am.

[black and blue]

"I don't have bad dreams - I am who I am"

Exactly Yuanfen... you are in all of 'our' bad dreams. You're the baddest!!!:D

I can't find a store anywhere that has your sifu's video on the pole and knives... are you chaps still making the vids? :confused:

Infact, I can't seem to find any tapes on the pole form and applications. What gives? I'm not ready to learn the sets, just wanna see them done by one of WC's big names. Answers on a postcard.

[yuanfen]

I hope that you are not that way from taking hits(black and blue that is). Nature hit me semi-hard at birth- so I am brown<g>.

I didnt learn from videos but directly from my sifu(Augustine Fong from Ho Kam Ming line in Yip Man wing chun)....before the videos came out and keep on learning.
To answer your question- I think that tape #6 in the Panther series has his weapons. Those tapes are from the early 80s. He keeps evolving amzingly in his applications. Unfortunately, I dont think that he is coming out with new tapes and books soon. Swamped.
He does do seminars from time to time on different aspects of wing chun- sometimes on the weapons. Two weapons only in wc
purposefully...if you learn how to control them with the hands and footwork...other long and short weapons become easier.
If you want to talk seriously about some applications we can chat
some.

[black and blue]

Yes black and blue - always from training - actually, brown and yellow would be a more apt description, esp. around the chest. WC training... I have constant aches!:D

I train four times a week, each class is 1.5 - 2.0hrs, so over the course of a week those niggling little hits you take have been made multiple times and I look like a the victim of gang beating. Mmmm... pain.

I have some of the Fong vids you speak of - good stuff, but 80's music for sure:) Some of the tapes seem to cover the same ground, but on the whole they are very good.

In particular, I just wanna see the pole form. Bagua has some really great looking spear work I once saw, and I was wondering if there are any similarities. They seem to generate a great deal of whipping power the staff and lots of dipping motions.

I agree you can't learn purely from tapes and books, but when you're nuts on a system, you sit down at the weekend and stick in a tape and say: "One day... One day I'll have those motions down!"

A quick question on the vids I DO have by your Sifu. Why are his hands so low when standing in guard? Seems to leave his whole upper body open?

Not wanting to start a fight:) Just wondering. Doesn't seem to both HIM, your man moves pretty quick :eek:

[Kuen]

Would you say those Panter tapes are pretty representitive of Grandmaster Fong's Wing Chun or do you feel it has evolved into something different over the years? Sorry, I realize "something different" is a bad term but a kung fu video is like a snapshot of that person's WC at that moment in time and people grow so I was just wondering.

[yuanfen]

black and blue:
1. the baqua pole/spear holding is quite different from wing chun use of the pole. The difference is in the structural difference in the two arts. The wing chun pole is closely coordinated with wc structure. In the start up the pole is "anchored" and sunk. Most northern spear work is not.
2. bai jong position can vary. My hands are a little more up than what you have seen in the video. Even he holds it in different ways. The key commonality is elbow and shoulders sunk and the hands
via the trained elbows are CONTROLLING the center. If you control the center and know your timing you can take care of things at any gate. Actually in a real "fight" you dont even have to do an obvious bai jong.

Kuen: The tapes are ok... ofcourse media work has moved on leap years away. But the principles remain if you know what to look for. But in application both he and his good students have evolved much beyond what you see on the tapes. You will appreciate this- the paradigm and the general theory is basically the same. Seeing their implications and applications and experimentation marches on and is far more developed than in the tapes..
(no time for spell check or proofing)