Lai Ng Sam [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

CPS

11-27-2000, 11:06 PM

Lai Ng Sam taught Hungga and Siulam style. He never spoke about old Hungga himself.
Actually his style is a mix of Hungga and Siulam.
Teh main forms indeed are almost the same as the Chiu family performs them. Some weapons are the same too.
Other forms which the Weito sect likes to call old Hungga are more mix of parts Hungga forms, parts of Siulam.

Also LAi Ng Sam did not speak English at all, and Geoff Hasbrouck, the teacher of Evert van der Meulen, did not speak English at all.
So there's no way that Lai Ng Sam could have told them all the great stories. They made up most of it.

Exept one thing: the lineage. LAi Ng Sam wasn't allowed to teach Hungga and say he as a student of Chiu Kao (concurrence agreement). Tehrefore he taught for free at Victoria Park and just said he was from Tit Kiu Sam lineage.
From 1985-1995 the Weito sect told Lai Ng Sam was a second generation (Tit Kiu Sam - Ng Hee Kwan - LAi Ng Sam). After the dead of Lai Ng Sam it became TKS - NHK - Hang Yat Siu - Lai Ng Sam.

I'm from the LAi Ng Sam lineage that uses Chiu Kao as their si dai gung. Our school did not believe it form the beginning. We accepted that Lai Ng SAm just did not want to tell the turth. We also knew the gap was way to big and that our sets looked a lot like the Chiu famliy Hungga.
In 1997 Chiu Chi Ling was invited and at then we did find out the truth. Since then we use the Chiu Kao lineage.

The Weito sect however did not agree and called us and Chiu Chi Ling liars.

Now I went to Hong Kong myself just a few weeks ago and compared my HUngga htere to that of Chiu Wai's old students and to Lam family Hungga.
It was clear to me that LAi NgSam did learn from Chiu KAo and that hois other forms are mix of Hungga with otrher styles. It certainly isn't old HUngga.

If anyone has more questions about the matter, just post tehm or feel free to contact me.

South Paw

11-28-2000, 08:54 AM

Must admit you're pretty well informed Patrick!
Do you know what students Lai Ng Sam thaught his version of Hung Gar during his lifetime?

Regards.

South Paw

11-28-2000, 02:06 PM

You probably mean Lai Ng Sam talking only Chinese and his student Geoff only American English!
So how could they have such a detailed 'history'. Was it translated?

I'm just wondering who made up these legendary stories.

CPS

11-28-2000, 02:53 PM

South Paw,

Indeed, my sigung only Cantonese and Geoff only Amercan English.
Now the daughter of Lai Ng Sam spoke a little English and once in a while she tranlated somethings when Geoff was at their home.
However considering the fact that Geoff can't write/read (at least that's what I've been told), he could never have remebrered that much detailled stories.
So I know Lai Ng Sam himself said he was from Tik Kiu Sam lineage, but all the other "detailled" stories are just made up by Evert van der Meulen.

LAi Ng Sam had many students. First he taught at the YMCA and the JApanese embassy. (at least that's written in Evert's old studies).
Later he only taught a few private students for free at Victoria Park. One of them has moved to Canada; his nickname was " Benny".
Secondly there were some more Chinese students, which names I do not know.
However I once found an article on one of the very old students of LNS, named Cham Kam Shu. He was a teacher at the ChingMo Association of HongKong.

Then there are two other students. Geoff and Klaas Padberg.
Actualluy Evert first was a student of Klaas. Together they went to HK in 1980, where they met Geoff and LAi Ng Sam. Klaas returned several times and learned Hung gar from Lai Ng Sam.
In 1985 Geoff came to the Netherlands where he stayed about one year. At that time Evert became the student of Geoff.

LAter (1993) Klaas opened a new Hung Gar school (after he had moved in 1989 to Ermelo NL and had only opened a Kempo school). Evert then helped Klaas. After Evert then suddnely insisted Klaas would put his name under Evert in the lineage war broke out. Also Chiu Chi Ling came to the school of Klaas and told us the "truth". Evert didn't like this at all and since then it's been trouble between teh two schools.

Well that's the most detailled you can get. Hope I've answered all your questions. If not, post again or contact me at info@hungga.net

Subitai

11-29-2000, 01:01 AM

Hi,

I wonder where "Paul Skrypichayko" is in all of this? Why hasn't he chimmed in? Just Curious.

About a year ago he said that I could "Save Face" and ask Chu Wai Si Gung if Lai Ng Sam taught the Chu family Dit Da. He also said that they were:
1st Body builders
2nd Dit Da businessmen
3rdly Gung Fu men
Of course his tone was insulting and he was unapologetic.

Do you Patrick have any extra info on this. I have my own source(from the horses mouth). I'm just curious if you have any bonus information.
thx you man

Anyway I want to commend you Patrick Chiu for your honest answers to these questions. I commend you even more because you have spoken to ACTUAL people and got their take on this info. I mean, it's not as if you got your info from just a magazine.

Patrick wrote: "I'm from the LAi Ng Sam lineage that uses Chiu Kao as their si dai gung. Our school did not believe it form the beginning. We accepted that Lai Ng SAm just did not want to tell the turth. We also knew the gap was way to big and that our sets looked a lot like the Chiu famliy Hungga. In 1997 Chiu Chi Ling was invited and at then we did find out the truth. Since then we use the Chiu Kao lineage."

I will also say this, I've seen 1st hand that Chiu Chi Ling is talented. I spent a day w/ him and his school in Oakland. Some people say he does "Showy, Flashy Hung Gar" when he is in front of cameras. But I've seen him behind the scenes w/ his students looking in top form and apply his techniques while horsing aroung w/ his students.

I guess you could say that he is talented enough to hide what he knows to outsiders and also kick arse and use his stuff. Bravo to him!

ease on,
Onassis

Paul Skrypichayko

11-29-2000, 01:44 AM

Paul Skrypichyako chiming in on cue. Sorry, been busy lately, not much time to read and type here.
=)

I've heard a few different opinions on this Chiu Kao vs Lai Ng Sam debate. I do not know enough about the relationships between the two, so I will only comment on what I know, or what seems to make the most sense. My mind will be made up when I see how both camps train/fight/perform. That's not one of my top priorities, so don't count on any feedback soon.

Subitai, what do I have to apologize about? Did I hurt your feelings? Did I offend you?

I don't think I've said anything bad about Chiu Wei, I just said you should get him to tell you what you wanted to know. I actually look up to him, and have heard good things about him and his father from my master.

Subitai

11-29-2000, 03:29 AM

Well 1st i should stick to the thread. Just wondering if anywone else had info on this?

2nd
Paul wrote:
"Subitai, what do I have to apologize about? Did I hurt your feelings? Did I offend you?

I don't think I've said anything bad about Chiu Wei, I just said you should get him to tell you what you wanted to know. I actually look up to him, and have heard good things about him and his father from my master."

"O" = No, what you did was insult the Chiu family. Your candor is unbelievable. YOU didn't jusy "say that we should ask him". I remember very clearly, YOU said that we should "Allow our Si Gung to SAVE FACE" by asking him in private.

And then your candor when saying that they were the 3 things that I posted above was in a negative tone. YOU can't just dismiss that.

And then when my brother gives you 1st person knowledge from Chu Si Gung, you spout off hearsay and stuff that you admitedly got from a magazine AND TELL US TO SAVE FACE.

Furthermore, the topic was about something else in HG that my Brother Ha Say Fu and I were discussing in a friendly way w/ others as usual untill you came in. I understand it's your prerogotive, but you started it.

geez louise
"O"

Paul Skrypichayko

11-29-2000, 06:15 AM

From what I have learned, the Chiu's were known for their bodybuilding, their dit da medicine, and finally their martial arts.

I dont recall reading or typing any information from a magazine. Chiu Wei has had advertisements and articles in our local Chinese newspapers, could that be what you are referring to?

Subitai wrote:
Furthermore, the topic was about something else in HG that my Brother Ha Say Fu and I were discussing in a friendly way w/ others as usual untill you came in. I understand it's your prerogotive, but you started it.

Boo hoo... I started it... What's next? Are you going to tell me which topics I can and cannot participate in? Grow up man, nothing on here is personal

South Paw

11-29-2000, 10:02 AM

Subitai wrote: 'I will also say this, I've seen 1st hand that Chiu Chi Ling is talented. I spent a day w/ him and his school in Oakland. Some people say he does "Showy, Flashy Hung Gar" when he is in front of cameras. But I've seen him behind the scenes w/ his students looking in top form and apply his techniques while horsing aroung w/ his students.'

You are right about that. I have seen him perform many times. For the cameras he is just (or just plays) the moviestar Chiu Chi Ling. But he is still in top form for his age (57), learning his students the traditional way, and he is very inventive & creative too.
A man with two faces, eager to be in the spotlight to promote himself and his Hung Gar, and on the other the sifu that is willing to share his fast knowledge with students.

Chiu Chi Ling inherited the school in Hong Kong on Pak Hoi Street from his parents Chiu Kau and Shiu Ying, who were both masters in Hung Gar. Learning from both parents, just imagine that! Always someone to correct you. Chiu Kau being a top performer in his younger and even older days. Chiu Chi Ling, being the youngest son, he also was encouraged by his older sister and brothers, from which Chiu Wai is now known as the 'King of Hung Gar'.

The Chiu Family is a family with an outstanding reputation in the Hung Gar Style.

As for Chiu Chi Ling he is wellknown for promoting the art of Hung Gar to the public. In the seventies he was one of the Hung Gar performers that was mostly interviewed in magazines and on television, especially in Asia. He had a short career in the movieworld but was always dedicated to learn foreign students. For over ten years he is travelling around the world giving seminars. Especially in Europe he is very popular I've been told.
His first videofilm on Hung Gar with the Tiger- Crane Form, released in 1980, is the best instructionfilm on Hung Gar I have ever seen. And the last four years he released an other six films, that are of a very good quality.
Latest I heard from him was that he is writing a book. But for five years he was telling me the same that he was writing a book in which he would use pictures of his father performing tiger-crane.
Maybe he is still working on the same book.

South Paw

11-29-2000, 10:22 AM

Paul wrote: 'From what I have learned, the Chiu's were known for their bodybuilding, their dit da medicine, and finally their martial arts.'

A little bit shortsighted Paul, but I have heard this one before. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

They still have their body building equipment in their old school on Pak Hoi Street. Shiu Ying, now 97 (!) is stll living in this place, as well as this is a (second) home for her son Chiu Chi Ling.

The Chiu Family was well known for their Hung Gar.
They were also very good Dit Da healers.
Chiu Wai having a clinic in Canada. As far as I know he revceives most of his income from running this clinic.
Chiu Chi Ling learned Dit Da medicine (TCM) from his father and had his own clinic on Hong Kong Island.

As for the body building. Well you must admit that all the Chiu's look very strong. But that is just outward appearance. There Kung Fu can be hard as Iron and as Soft as Silk. So don't be fooled by that. I can say so because I have many times felt the subtile power that Chiu Chi Ling unleashes.
The Chiu's were the first to use modern western equipment (read: body building apparatus) to help them build muscle. Nothing wrong with that. But by practising their Kung Fu they never forgot the true application of Hung Gar power.

Subitai

11-30-2000, 12:43 AM

Thx you South Paw, for relaying your real life 1st person experiences w/ Master Chu.

Paul wrote:
"Boo hoo... I started it... What's next? Are you going to tell me which topics I can and cannot participate in? Grow up man, nothing on here is personal"

"O" = As I said, it was your prerogotive. As for growing up, Young PuP... i am. Understand that your insult was not only in your tone/candor but your rhetoric as well.

THE VERY NOTION OF TELLING SOMEONE TO SAVE FACE IMPLYS THAT YOU FELT CHU WAI SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED.

Hey, your speaking of free speech. By your own words just now, you admitted to starting s#1t. Well don't put it out if you cant take it in return. So your silly crybaby comeback is a moot point. I called you on your stink and your still as unapologetic as ever.

As for the magazine, You had admited that you got alot of your information about current HG masters from an old Hong Kong magazine article. Not like that other guys here who've spoken to source.

You also wrote:
"I've heard a few different opinions on this Chiu Kao vs Lai Ng Sam debate. I do not know enough about the relationships between the two, so I will only comment on what I know, or what seems to make the most sense. My mind will be made up when I see how both camps train/fight/perform."

"O" This is sounds like to me you don't know s#1t. How come you will let these guys who are obviously better informed than you hash it out like cannon fodder now? A year ago you were posting insults to us with absolute certainty in your writting.

So you've admited to starting a beef w/ the Chu's. Didn't you expect some kind of response? In my book, the only difference between you and Word is we know your identity. Big leap

CPS

11-30-2000, 04:07 PM

First of all about Paul and Lai Ng Sam.
the things Paul said in earlier postings about LAi Ng Sam and Chiu Kao were actually not his words. He just retold what Evert van der Meulen told him by email. So don't blame him for the twisted things about the relationship between Lai Ng Sam and Chiu Kao. It was Evert van der MEulen who made up these things. Also in the negative things about the Chiu family are perhaps I reckognise other people's words.

Paul has never seen our style or Chiu style in person. Paul did email with me for a while, but we hardly spoke about the subject. So he can not judge at all.
If you really want to make a good conclusion you'd have to contact both parties and see our style. Or better learn some forms of our style to see what's the same and what's different.

To make any judgements at all about other lineages is very difficult. Everything is just different, not NOT GOOD. (In the end it's all the same again though).
I have learned forms and part of forms form different lineages. (LAi Ng sam style, Lam family style, Chiu Chi Ling style and Chiu Wai style.)
They all have their differences, but these are from personal interpretation, different applications. This last you can not "see" if you only watch these masters/students perform.
So you have to learn some forms to really understand the differences.
Now I have even learned the Lauga of Lai Ngsam style and Lam style completely, and a little part of Chiu Wai style (taught to me by Mei Wah, the schoolkeeper of Chiu Wi's old school in HK) and also of Chiu Chi Ling (seminar in Holland).

I can really garantee that Lai Ng Sam learned this form from Chiu Chi Ling. Some of you will have noticed that next to just greeting to the sides, Chiu Chi Ling also has a hit to the nose, a cross block and a "throwing the fists back". (Chiu Wai style does not have this, neither does Lam Chun Fai). LAi Ng Sam style also has this extra techniques. Also when I asked Chiu Chi Ling about it he confirmed he taught the form (as well as many other forms) as sihing to LAi Ng Sam.

SEcondly I have to agree with South paw on Chiu Chi Ling's style. Chiu Chi ling is here in Holland at the moment. He's really showing real Hung Gar and does his best to teach that Hungga is not only hard, but contains "everyting".
And I must say I'm impressed. Before I had only seen his movie kungfu. When I was in HK and saw LAm Chun FAi I tought this is real HUnggar, the Chiu's is just .... Now I must say Chiu Chi Ling is very good too (just as good). I think that their Hungga doesn't differ that much at all.

Only the Chiu's have used body building to enrich their Kungfu. That's nothing bad. The problem is however sometimes it looks like the muscles have replaced the ging (internal) power. This is however absolutely not the case. The muscle power is added to the ging, making them even stronger.

As for the accusations about the Chiu's being Dit Da people. Well in HK Dennis Chiu (son of Chiu Wai) has a really good clinic with many customers/patients. No matter if you go their early in the morning, the afternoon or evening: it's always crowded with patients waiting.
I can't say that of the many other clinics.
So if other Hungga master say this they are probably jealous that there own clinic isn't that succesfull.

hasayfu

11-30-2000, 10:28 PM

First, thanks to Patrick and South Paw for stating their sources and adding to this.

I understand Patrick defending Paul and honestly I have no beef against him as we have emailed on other occasions but I have to point out why Subitai and myself took offense at his post concerning this topic.

Patrick says "the things Paul said in earlier postings... were actually not his words." That may have been true but he represented them like they were his. Patrick further adds, "Paul has never seen our style... So he can not judge at all." This is even worst because he came across as an authority and would not state his sources only that they "must" be better then others.

To this day, he only see's his view (which he is entitled) but gives almost no respect to the elders. He is quick to judge Lum Jo as being petty without meeting the man and to accuse the Chiu's of not being true Hung Gar men. When shown that his information and logic was flawed, he blamed it on youth and no remorse. Whatever.

Enough of Paul, he is a dedicated Hung Man and for that I can appreciate his input. His manners only reflect him and his Sifu.

For Chiu Chi Ling, I was at the Oakland event with Subitai and can safely say that CCL has two faces. One for the public and one for his students.

Chiu Wai is 70 and still practicing Hung Gar. He still teaches advance students and he teaches his Yik Sau Kuen as well as some basic Hung Gar for free at the Chinese Community center. He still as his sculpted body shape but he is not stiff or strictly external. His son Ambrose and Dennis run their Dit Da clinics in Calgary and Hong Kong and are very successful. I should add that Lum Jo's Clinic is still successful and at 80+ he is still practicing Hing Gar.

As stated in a previous post, Chiu Wai told me that Lai Ng Sam started at Chiu Kau's school when Chiu Wai already had his own school. Even so, Chiu Wai remembers going back to his father's school and training Lai Ng Sam. Since CCL inherited his father's school, it only makes sense that CCL would have instructed LNS as well.

This does not negate any link to Tit Kiu Sam. It just goes against the claim that he taught the Chiu's anything.

CPS

11-30-2000, 11:50 PM

Hello Ha Say Fu,

You're right that LAi Ng Sam didn't teach the Chiu family.First of all they already had a clinic, so why should they learn any medicine from LNS.
When we started to use Chiu lineage, Evert tried everything to proof that it was exchange instead. So he twisted all our words etc.

So I think we have solved the LAi Ng Sam question. Unless someone of the Weito clan would like to contribute his point of view.

For further proof I 'd have to show you all my Hung Gar. So hopefully there will be Hung Gar World Championships in the USA next year (we have had one in Europe, so now it's the turn for America) and I can meet you all. Then we can compare all our styles personally.

Charris Patrick van't Slot
Webmaster of Hungga United

hasayfu

12-01-2000, 01:00 AM

I just want to clearly state my position.

I offer what I know and how I get my info. That's all I ask from others. As I stated before, you need to believe your Sifu so if any Weito folks have a differing history, they can present it and we as a net hung gar community can gain another perspective. Just leave out all the name calling and posturing.

For instance, Paul has stated that Chiu Kau learned some of his hung gar from Paul's Si-Gung, Chan Hong Chun. I said that they were peers.
The difference is that I stated my source (Chui Kau's oldest son) while I don't know where the other info came from.

Now regardless of how much corroborating evidence there is contrary to my Sifu's stories(an in this case there is none), as a todai (in the chinese sense) I will accept my Sifu's version or stop following him.

As a member of the net community, I will gain a bigger appreciation for what others have. As a member of the Hung Gar community and TCMA as a whole, I know everyone has something to offer. I take what I can use and leave the rest for others to digest.

Not everyone practices Mo Duk (WuDe-martial virtue) but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

jonpcm

12-01-2000, 02:46 AM

Dear All,
I am a student of Kieron Draper a long time student of Sifu Jeff Hassbrouck and I have great respect for him. The Wei t'o 'school' in Bristol UK (Where Jeff lives with his family) is group of Jeff's long term students who teach independently mainly in church halls and such, and have no need for 'spin' or any other form of self-promotion. I have little direct contact with Sifu hassbrouck, apart from in the form of gradings, and would not speak for him. Obviously these questions are best answered by him,so I provide the information that was given to me be when I started to train. (Please excuse the longevity, but I won't assume to edit)

"Hong Seung Yung was very young boy when his father came down form the Yangtze area of China, and was killed by Ching Government troops. Hong Seung Yung had to survive as an orphan. He found work in a restaurant. There he met Tit Kiu Sam who gave him the opportunity to work as a cleaner in his training hall. From this introduction, Hong became very fond of martial arts and eventually became an indoor student. (Indoor student meant that he lived in the school and all his needs were procured by the teacher, ie fed, clothed, etc)
Hong was 21 when his teacher died, and although Tit Kiu Sam had other, better students, all left the school or died. Next in line was to be Lai Ng Sam.
Lai Ng Sam father was an herbalist by trade. He, his wife, and children travelled over China to perform acrobatics and practicing medicine to earn a living. Hong Seung Yung was a good friend of Lai’s father, so when Lai’s father died, and his mother found it difficult to cope with all the children, it was Hong who adopted Lai as his son. Lai acted as a personal servant, carry medicine for Hong Seung Yung as he travelled. Hong Seung Yung would visit many monasteries around the area who would engage his services to teach monks martial arts.
Lai Ng Sam spent some twelve years with his sifu, travelling the southern part of China around Guandong province and the outlining provinces as an indoor student. It is estimated that he travelled over 500 miles.
A temple known as Chang Sha is a very important temple to us in that Lai spent many years training there. In the time he spent with his teacher, between 1939-45, he would visit many temples to learn and train, such temples as the nine-lotus temple and the white horse temple.
They spent this time travelling because Hong was an activist against the Japanese during their occupation of China during 1937–1945.
The are no Hung Ga Kuen weapons, there are, however, Shaolin ones. The most renowned and documented are the Five Generals Stick and the Southern Monkey Stick. The Five General Stick is said that this form is created from the techniques from Generals who stayed at the Shaolin Monastery. Other weapons that form part of the syllabus, Moi Fa Dao (Broadsword), Moi Fa Spear, Hop Doo Dao (Butterfly swords), Kwan Dao, etc, may have come form several sources.
They were intergrated by a student of Wong Fei Hung Lam Sai Wing through an organisation known as the Ching Mo. Or they were taught to the practitioners of differents styles in an exchange of techniques. This may have been the case with Lai Ng Sam. He knew many styles. Most of these he learned whilst with his teacher. When his teacher was unable to teach, for he was almost blind in his later years, Lai was introduced to other teachers, and more than likely, they exchanged techniques.
If this was the case, and if we can document his movements, we would gain some insight to origins of styles like Golden Eagle, Drunken Fist, Dragon Fist, Monkey Fist, Umbrella, Walking stick, etc.

These are the direct descendants of our Hung Ga lineage. There are other lines which our briefly worth mentioning. One of the most famous practitioners of Hung Ga was Wong Fei Hung.
It was Wong who created the Tiger and Crane form that is practised today. He also created the partner forms of Tiger and Crane. (c.1907).
This was approximately at the tender age of sixty, Wong was a very famous lion dancer and his knowledge and experience in lion dancing helped him choreograph and extend the Fu Hoc Seung Ying form.
He also created a new Sap Ying form—five element, five animal form (the old Shaolin form had no element features it). There is also Gau Dou Kuen that is said to be Wong’s nine deadliest techniques.
These new forms intergrated themselves in the present system. How? We are not sure, but is believed that Lai may have been shown by Chiu Kao, who was a student of Lam Sai Wing and father of Chiu Chi Ling. Chiu Kao was not Lai’s teacher, so it is believed that Lai was taught by Chiu Gao as an exchange for the weapons that Lai made for him."

If anyone has any further questions, I shall try and pass them on.

Jon–

CPS

12-01-2000, 09:48 AM

Jonpcm,

Thanks for your post. Now people can see the other side of the storie too.

First of all about the lineage, you speak about:
Tit Kiu Sam - Hong Seung YUng - LAi Ng Sam.

I assume Hong Seung Yung is the same person in Evert's old studies written as Ng Hee Kwan.
Now the gap is between Tit Kiu Sam and Lai Ng Sam is very very big. Tit Kui Sam died 1813 (? I'm not sure) and LAi NG SAm was born in 1927/1929.
To also teach Lai Ng Sam and tell him to escape in 1949 it means that Hong Yang Sung became over 150 years old.
Don't think so. besides everybody could read the names of the five students of Tit Ku Sam in the books and pick out a name as their teacher.

When Lai Ng Sam died, he gave the final lineage to Geoff. (according to Evert). In this lineage suddenly the lineage was Tit Kiu Sam, Ng Hee Kwan - Hang YAt Siu - Lai NG Sam.
Why did Lai Ng SAm add one. Because he noticed the gap wwas to big??
Also with this one person added the gap is still to big.

>>>>>The are no Hung Ga Kuen weapons, there are, however, Shaolin ones.<<<
Lai Ng Sam indeed taught many weapons that were not part of the Hungga. However there are many Hungga weapons in our system too: Monkey stick, Lau Ga stick, Wu Dip Do, Monkey Stick Partner Form, Double knife, and probably more wich I do not know.

Also when I showed single knife and Moi fA Do (broadsword) in Hong Kong, all said it was mix. So no authentic Siu Lam style from the lineage of Tit Kiu Sam. So I think (and many with me) that Lai Ng Sam just made up a lot of forms. (based on his knowledge of Hungga and other styles.)

>>>They were integrated by a student of Wong Fei Hung Lam Sai Wing through an organisation known as the Ching Mo.<<<

I asked LAm Chun FAi Sifu about this when I was in Hong Kong. He said LAm Sai Wing wasn't a member of the Ching Mo at all.

ALso I heard from a friend who has met Chiu Wai, that some of the Hungga teachers (under whom Chan Hon Chung, Chiu Kao, (Wong) Siu Ying, Wong Lee) came together in the 1950's to create some new forms. Here they created/adapted/taught each other the forms Moi FA Kuen, Wu Dip Cheung etc. (PAul might be right here that Chan Hon Chung also taught one to the others)

>>>It was Wong who created the Tiger and Crane form that is practised today. He also created the partner forms of Tiger and Crane. <<<<

You're right. However when you look at Evert's website, he claims that his Fu Hok is old Hungga, just like his Gungji Fok Fu Kuen. Only the Ng and Sap Ying Kuen are supposed to be modern Hungga of Wong Fei Hung.

So may I assume you don't agree with Evert here.
You do agree that LAi Ng Sam does a lot of Wong Fei Hung Hungga (just about the way he learned it, you have a different view)????

Then is my question. Does Geoff know what Evert is claiming and what is on Evert's website?

Secondly Evert claims Klaas PAdberg is an student of him, learning in 1993. I can definitely proof that this is not true. I learned Hungg away before that time. And in 1992 a sihing of Klaas' old school came and he already knew up to Ng Ying Kuen, taught to him by Klaas. Also on my website you can see a picture of LAi NG Sam teaching Klaas.
Do you know anything about that? What has Geoff said about Klaas?

>>>>Chiu Kao was not Lai’s teacher, so it is believed that Lai was taught by Chiu Gao as an exchange for the weapons that Lai made for him."<<<

Well Chiu Wai and Chiu Chi Ling both say Lai Ng Sam was their father's student. So are they liars?
It was very commmon to have many sifus. Even Lam Sai Wing had 6 or 7.

Possible Lai Ng Sam was much moe impressed by his first teacher, but I still think the gap is way to big and it cannot be true.
The explanation for LAi NGSAM using an other lineage was that he wasn't allowed to teach under Chiu Kao's name. This was for Chiu Wai and Chiu CHi Ling only.

As for the exchange with weapons. Evert first claimed LAi Ng Sam taught medicine to Chiu Kao.
Now it are weapons. Not really consistent, and it's just guessing.
LAi Ng Sam trained under Chiu Kao every day for several years. LAter LAi NG Sam indeed made weapons for Chiu Kao, but he had long learned the total Hungga programm by then.

I read in Evert's studies that Geoff accompanied LAi Ng Sam a few times when delivering weapons to Chiu Kao. Do you (does Geoff still know) how Lai Ng Sam called Chiu Kao?

Finally I want to know if you have seen Evert's websites and seen the many stories on it. The stories are really thickened and I wonder if Geoff told him all this?

I hope you can answer these questions.
You can also contact me by email (info@hungga.net), if you don't want to discus this in the open.
Thanks for your story anyway. Now the readers can judge themselves after seen both stories. Hopefully they will once be able to see our style to even get a better judgement.

jonpcm

12-01-2000, 11:05 PM

Thanks Patrick for your questions, unfortunately I am not an authority by any means all I can do direct you to the sources.

To try and address some of your questions as best I can however,

Tit Kiu Sam life span I have seen as 1817-1888 and elsewhere as 1813-1886.

I think the 'no Hung Ga weapon forms only Shaolin ones' is saying that the weapon forms pre-date the creation of Hung Ga as a separate system (well that's how I've always read it.)

And pilfering directly from Evert Van Der Meulen's website in the forms section.

"One of the most popular fistforms in Hung Ga Kuen, is the Tiger-Crane form (Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen). This
form was re-choreographed by Wong Fei Hung around 1905. Originally only the small section of the tiger-
crane part, as seen in the third Hung Ga Kuen fistform, was choreographed by the founder Hung Hee Guan.
The old Wong Fei Hung (60) was well versed in philosophy and used this knowledge to broaden the rudimental
Fu Hok form. The theory of Yin-Yang, 5 elements, 7 stars, 12 bridge hands and special Kum Na (Chin Na)
techniques were added in. Even calligraphical based movements were incorporated and do not forget his
favourite,"shadowless"kick making this unique form complete. It is a correct statement to say that Fu Hok
Seung Ying Kuen is a complete system on it's own.
It was Wong Fei Hung' s student, Lam Sai Wing, that made this form very popular. He gave many
demonstrations in and around Canton. For this reason he is incorrectly seen as the creator of Fu Hok (Pai).
Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen has 265 movements of which 108 are primary movements. Especially the 10 Tigers and the typical Crane section, make this form very popular. So popular in fact that you find these forms nowadays back in modern Nam Kuen (Nan Quan) competition."

In regard to your other questions I am not able speak of with any authority.
Sorry I'm not able help you any further, any additional information you have would be welcome.
Jon

CPS

12-02-2000, 09:51 PM

Hi Johnpcm,

Thanks for your answers.
I did not know that Evert had changed the text on Fu Hok. Now he writes (almost) the same about it as I do on my website. However on the main Weito website the form is still mentioned as Old Hungga. But at least some parts have changed.(Maybe it was already changed a long time ago, but I had not seen it.)
Anyway I'm glad that he "admits" he does Wong Fei Hung 's version of Fu Hok Sheung Ying Kuen.

TAke care and wish you the best in your training.
I think we can end this discussion now. There's no use in arguing more and trying to convince each other. It's okay to have some different views, because everybody is entitled to his own opinion.

South Paw

12-03-2000, 02:36 AM

Jon, welcome to this forum.

You state as lineage:
Tit Kiu Sam
Hong Seung Yung
Lai Ng Sam

On the official website it reads:
Tit Kiu Sam
Ng Hee Kwan
Hang Yat Sui
Lai Ng Sam

Please let the true lineage of the 'Nam Siu Lam Hung Kuen' be revealed.
I just vote for non of both, because I also heard that more lineages have been presented as official by master Geoff and his Dutch devotee Evert.

A lot of the other stories that you talk about seem to me just bogus. Chinese like to tell legends and don't have much sense for history. And that is a fact.

And what about the claim, once written down by Paul S., that in turn of exchange of Dit Da formulas or knowledge Chiu Kao taught Lai Ng Sam Hung Gar forms. Now we read about weapons that have been made by Lai Ng Sam in exchange.
The first statement can't be true because the Chiu's are accomplished Dit Da healers.
The second statement implies anyway a teacher-student relationship between the both and explains a lot.

The bulk of Hung Gar forms your group is training is plain Lam Sai Wing Style. And the two 'old forms' probably are inventions of a creative mastermind.

Have a good sunday,
/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

South Paw

12-03-2000, 02:41 AM

jonpcm

12-03-2000, 02:45 PM

Dear South Paw,
May I ask what your interest this matter is? what discipline you practice? And under what authority can you say that forms practiced by the Wei T'o group are made up?
In regard to the lineage, I have been told that Evert Van Der Meulen has done alot of research into our heredity, questions about his sources are best answered by him.
And as to the "two old forms" you refer to, which of the 30+ open hand forms and approx. 30 weapon forms known by Sifu Hassbrouck do you mean?
jon

South Paw

12-03-2000, 06:57 PM

Dear Jon,

My interest is the truth.
You can read about me when you click on the proper icon. I am a 'closed door student' of Hung Gar.

To Evert van der Meulen:
a. Is he an accomplished historian?
b. Does he read or write Chinese/Cantonese?
c. Did he write any indepth article on the subject of Hung Gar?
d. Has he ever visited the places that are important for Hung Gar?
e. Did he ever talk to the old masters or only to Geoff?

I think his/their stories are all about oral 'tradition' and not based on facts and on real research and fieldwork. A scientific researcher can only laugh about the claims your group is making. And serious and advanced Hung Gar practitioners do the same.

With the 'bulk of Hung Gar' I mean the main HG handforms. Five HG forms against two old 'HG' forms does not mean that your group does a different style, or can claim descend from Tit Kiu Sam. The whole claim of descend from Tit Kiu Sam is pure blasphemy!

The group Wei T'o has nothing to support these hilarious claims.

With all these falls claims the group Wei T'o is not respecting the ancestors of Hung Gar.

StPa

South Paw

12-03-2000, 07:28 PM

Patrick Chiu wrote earlier:
"The things Paul S. said in earlier postings about Lai Ng Sam and Chiu Kao were actually not his words. He just retold what Evert van der Meulen told him by email. So don't blame him for the twisted things about the relationship between Lai Ng Sam and Chiu Kao. It was Evert van der Meulen who made up these things".

This Evert must be a real authority. Never heard of him though.
E-mailing around, and now his words end up in this forum.

Well I once have seen Chiu Chi Ling perform Ng Ying Kuen and I must admit the ground shook. Sound and technique melting together in a harmoniuos performance. Top of the bill Hung Gar.
And then Evert orates about 'Chiu Family is more into body building'.
Did he ever withness a live performance by one of them? I am sure he would talk/write different then.

StPa

CPS

12-03-2000, 08:30 PM

South Paw,

If you're really into this discussion we have a right to know who you are.
Not that I do not know who you are:
You say you don't know Evert, however you know exactly the right questions to ask about him!!
Secondly you know about there only two old fist forms. This is never mentioned in this discussion and neither on Evert's website.

So shut up about lineage problems or reveal your identity. Same goes for your other posting on the Chiu - Lam. I thought we had that discussion all over. Now you have spoken to Chiu Chi Ling you reapeat his words. I think you can't even read Chinese yourself. Also did you bother to also go to the Lam family and see their evidence/hear their story???

Do you like being people at war and undermine the "one family" concept? Then all the efforts of several people, e.g. the World Championships in Karlsruhe, were for nothing.

The past is the past and we do not know everything that happened. We have to realise that and except that everybody has his own story. Baring that in mind we can work togehter very well and promote our style.

jonpcm

12-04-2000, 11:59 PM

Unfortunately, I have been informed that the information I posted 12-01-00 is long out of date.

I apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

Thankyou ,
Jon

Santa Claus

12-05-2000, 01:29 PM

Please explain this forum why this version of the lineage is out of date.

Santa

South Paw

12-09-2000, 10:14 PM

Nobody has a reply?

One more, as I was looking in my mailbox.
A statement by Geoff Hasbrouck himself:
"Once a Wushu delegation was sent via Chiu Kau to Lai Ng Sam. They asked him to lead a Wushu Academie in Guangdong".

E veramente sifu ma non maestro.

South Paw

CPS

12-22-2000, 09:30 AM

I just updated the story on Lai Ngsam.
See <A HREF="http://www.hungga.net" TARGET="_blank">www.hungga.net</A> , section History!

I included my "experiences" in Hong Kong, as well as some opposite info to show how unreliable the so called "old lineage" is.

And there are more interesting new things.

HA HA HA, "Everything you say, can and will be used against you" MMMM

South Paw

03-21-2001, 01:09 PM

Do read this interesting article on one of Lai Ng Sam's students in UK's Top Martial Magazine QI:
www.qimagazine.co.uk/50_4.htm (http://www.qimagazine.co.uk/50_4.htm)

In this article Chan Kam Shu claims that his teacher Lai Ng Sam escaped to the South Fujian Shaolin Temple. Back to the roots you could say!!!
Wonder if he did learn Wong Fei Hung Hung Gar in this temple :D

Lai Ng Sam's legendary exploits are thickened by the year.

We can also read about his emigration to Australia just before the takeover of Hong Kong by China. Actually he died in Hong Kong in 1995, shortly after the dead of his actual teacher Chiu Kau.

In stead of "The Art as handed down by Tit Kiu Sam" ,as they proudly call it, we must read:
"The Art as made up by the Wei To Clan".

Invent your own MA, invent your own history, and just put it on the web for friends, family and all ignorant newcomers.

And most important look for faithfull followers that spread the gospel and are active members of this forum:
Justin Ehrlich (nothing wrong with his TCM knowledge)
Ming Fai (our sparetime historian)

South Paw

Grays Anatomy

03-21-2001, 03:51 PM

After reading this post about a whole lot of people I have never heard of - where does Frank Yee (Yee Chi Wai) fit into all of this?

:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused:

"Remember, that amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

illusionfist

03-21-2001, 11:21 PM

He doesn't. He's of the Tang Fung lineage and his lineage tree is well documented.

Peace :D

Horse Power

11-03-2004, 06:47 AM

Oops!

The spirit of TKS is wandering around.

Is this Tit Sien Kuen (http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/contacts/evert_van_de_muele/EvertTitSinKuenWeiToHead.wmv) of the Lai Ng Sam Lineage?

Just let's have a look at the 5 external factors, because we can only observe these objectively:

1. Hands (Sau):
Just pay attention to the hands (fists). Sometimes these 'crawl' up. No chambering at all.

2. Eyes (Ngaan): Looks too much down.

3. Trunk (San): The trunk is unstable, it moves too much.

4. Hips (Yiu): He bends forward from the hip with his body, which is not done.

5. Stances (Mah): Bad stances. Right foot drags.

Best,
Horse Power

martin watts

11-04-2004, 01:41 PM

Hi,

I am a white crane not a hung gar man and know nothing of the heritage or lineage. Evert is someone I am in contact with as he has given me a Iron Wire clip for my web site so I can see a little about it to compare with other Fu Jian systems which is my particular interest. it is on my personal website www.fujianbaihe.com on the contacts page. He has also been helpful in my research - but regarding persons and personalities I try not to judge until I meet them face to face for a cup of tea. Iron wire is interesting to me because I know so little about it and interested to compare it with other hung gar and Fu Jian forms.

Lineage is something that is a similar problem with many systems and there are many ways to trace it but I think one of the best ways is through the forms that people do. At least to the second generation ( given that one of the goals of a student may be to duplicate the style of his teacher ) it is possible to trace lineage through technique. Then there are many other methods as well as relying on hearsay to cross correlate. This is something I am doing a bit of as Crane has left Yong Chun in several phases in the past and it is fantastic to see the evolution as best as I can. It is suprising to hear so much debate about such a recent lineage!! - but I suppose good as well - it seems to me that often ( and strangely ) lineage tends to get more certain the further back in history you go.

Something else that suprises me about forums when I venture out on them is everyone has these strange names. 'Horse Power' , to me your analysis would mean more and be more helpful if I knew who you were! As it is how can I cross reference what you are saying and try to work out what your criticism is worth. I suppose you probably all know each other - but if any of you would mind telling me who you are that would be great.

Most importantly though, I was wondering whether anyone else out there who actually does this stuff would like to send me a clip so I can see some more about it and compare it with what I have seen from Evert ( even though it is just on the internet ). It is so easy to criticise - but so difficult to get anything complicated right. I know I can try to correct someone else's faults but still find the simplest thing difficult. Again 'Horse Power' you sound very knowledgeable on this - could you pls find time to record for me how you think it should be done. - That would be just great.

Interestingly I was just contacted by a man who said he studied with Huang Fei Hongs 4th wife looking for similar things from the reverse direction. This has kindled my interest in this area.

Thanks,

Martin Watts
www.fujianbaihe.com
www.yongchunbaihechuen.com

Horse Power

11-04-2004, 03:46 PM

Hello Martin,

Nice to hear from you.
Love your website and your style. A great privilige to learn such a respected style like Yong Chun in this historical setting.

I like to show you a clip of GM Chiu Wai - the King of Hung Gar - who is doing a similar excercise.

click here (http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/ccw1warshau2001.wmv)

Best,
Horse Power

martin watts

11-05-2004, 12:53 AM

Hello 'Horse Power',

This is a very interesting clip for me. I learnt what I thought was a tiger and crane hung gar form at university. The guy who was teaching it actually had switched to mantis, and so I probably learnt it will all the wrong emphasis. However, since then and as it is such a lovely long form I have practiced it with the White Crane emphasis. It would seem to me that this clip is that form but with some different emphasis.

So, really I have 2 questions:

1. what is this form - is it iron wire boxing, or the integration of iron wire priciples into a different form.

2. any chance of seeing your interpretation of iron wire to compare with Evert?

Thanks again for the post.

Martin Watts

Horse Power

11-05-2004, 08:42 AM

Hello Martin,

Nice to hear you also practised some Hung Gar.

This particular form is a mix of Iron Wire and some Tiger Techniques frome Tiger-Crane.

I don't think you see me doing any form on a clip. I don't like to show-off.

Respect,
Horse Power

martin watts

11-05-2004, 09:12 AM

Hi,

It is a long time since I practiced this form - or at least the form I learnt at university. It was either learn that or get beaten up at the savate boxing club! What I learnt was significantly different but I can see the source.

It is a shame that you do not want to post a clip. This is a constant source of amazement to me. In the far east I would expect to be asked to demo before really talking about the arts with another practitioner. In return I would expect the other practioner if he criticised ( as in critique - not in a negative way - although usually negative when they see me! ) my form, or the form of a 3rd party in the room. For me rather than a case of being some big deal, it is actually the start of the conversation. At another level, in Crane there are many interpretations, and far from saying 'you are not a good standard' , given a lineage and knowing a person the next step is to see their interpretation.

In addition, and unexpectedly, clips of internal work which people have sent me are extremely revealing of what they are trying to do. They are often, and is in the clip Evert sent me, very beautiful and inspiring to watch. I would be very grateful if you could open up and inspire me a little as well. Even more exiting as I think your lineages must be quite similar. Without this, I remain with only Evert giving me a lovely glimse of what Iron Wire is all about.

This is one of the reasons I do not usually take part in forums. More writing than illumination! However, thanks for posting that interesting clip. That was also lovely to see.

Best Wishes,

Martin Watts

Horse Power

11-05-2004, 11:41 AM

Hello Martin,

When we meet we can compare. I'm not afraid to show you anything. I'm not like an internet kid sitting behind his computer.

Best,
Horse Power

Eric Ling

11-05-2004, 06:55 PM

Hi horse power,

Yes, indeed you appear to be most knowledgeable about all things Hungga.

And really to finalize your presentation of what is right or wrong TSK, one must really see you in action.

To meet Martin for this end is really convenient. Considering that you are both in the West.

I am writing from SE Asia and many here, Hungga and others, are waiting to see you in motion to appreciate your position better. Posting a video clip is really helpful here.

So please oblige us.

Thank you.:)

Eric Ling

11-05-2004, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by
Peace to you Hung Gar Bro.

Problem is, who made up this story about the old style Hung Gar. Was it Lai Ng Sam himself or some of his disciples after he had died (in 1995).

Maybe some more people can shed some light on this subject.

Hi South Paw,

I am not a Hungga man. But I do have many friends into Hungga.

And yes, in SE Asia, there is this distinction of old and new style Hungga.

And the distinction is more than just surface deep according to them. It extends into emphasis of training methods, forms and applications.

I guess most of what is exported to the West is from Hong Kong and even China.

Let's us not forget that there are huge Cantonese population in many parts of SE Asia. Malaysia and Singapore for instance, the Cantonese are a very well-represented dialect group.

You can find "Kong Chow Hui Kun" in almost every SE Asia countries. You will be surprised by the kind of Hungga taught in these "hui kun".

Taiwan, I was told, do another form of Hungga that is unique. Same source but totally different flavors.

Thank you.