Longfist to animal to internal= a progression method?

[Shaolindynasty]

Have you guys ever heard of this? Royal Dragon says you start with longfist which is pure external then you should go to animal styles which are a mix, then you graduate to internal styles which are like college courses. He says it ususally goes like this but I have never heard of it before and I can think of alot of things wrong with it.

Longfist isn't always just external and can get you to alot higher level than most people think, look at Ku Yu Cheung.

Animal styles after longfist? why it is a seperate system with it's own set of basics so no prior training is really needed, but I afgree that it is a mix of internal and external.

Internal College level? Internal styles have nothing to do with external, the reason why alot of teachers in the past required that ou had previous experince was so they wouldn't have to take you though that beginner movement stage, since internal arts take so much time to learn this saves time by skipping a step. But you guys know from my pevious posts I don't beleive them more advanced.

Anyway I'd like to know if you guys ever heard of this progression happening alot cause I sure haven't.:confused:

[Shaolindynasty]

Oh yeah I forgot to ask if you could reply either way if you haven't I'd like to hear you haven't if you have I'd like to hear that to.

[NomortaL]

At my longfist kungfu school we do pure external training. Animal styles are taught during intermediate level. I don't know if we do internal or not afterwards, i just joined the school :)

[Chris McKinley]

Perhaps the obvious question: what if you don't start with Chang Chuan or any other Northern system? Let's say you start with CLF, Bak Mei, or Wing Chun...where would that fit into the supposed formula?

There are other problems with it that I won't go into here. However, in fairness, the point Royal was making does have a certain logic to it. Starting with a relatively simple, very athletic system ideal for longer ranges might give someone a foundation of both basic motor coordination and cardiovascular fitness. Finding some of the responses of that system a bit ham-handed or inadequate against a more subtle fighter might lead one to change to a style with more efficient and flexible responses. Eventually, a desire to maximize efficiency of power with superior biomechanics might lead one to begin a study of the internal arts.

While I don't think the whole of CMA can be put into a fairly simple one-size-fits-all formula, I doubt seriously if that's what Royal is trying to imply. The idea of moving from a system of gross motor movement and simple responses to more and more efficient, subtle and fluid methods seems pretty sound, especially for those looking at a lifelong commitment to the martial arts.

[Ray Pina]

I whent from Isshin-Ryu, to Hung Gar/Wing Chun (with one teacher) and then to S. Mantis with another. I am not studying the internal, Hsing-I/Ba Gua, Taiji.

I can say I have benefited from all of my training, because I don't need to be taught from scratch, just sort of readjusted, new principles to incorporate.

The way I look at it is a spectrum

Isshing-Ryu---------- HG/WC ------ S.Mantis ------ me now ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ my master.

I am trying to close the gap, but going further with the principles and theory. He is not so much as teaching me as transforming me into a better MA.

I think it would be much harder if I just took to the internal from scracth, without any principles to work with. I see other students who have gone this route, and after soem time they don't really have a grasp.

I guess each person is unique. I think learning a few external styles first is good. ALso, its hard to see how much better a way is when all you have is one way -- nothing to compare it with.

I do, and I find the internal to be the truth, the clear way that everyone should be aiming towards. One can not be a brwaler at 65, just an a$$ kicker.

[Braden]

I really think you should just start with what you want to do, and do it.

I'm not sure how something can be 'partially internal.' I've been taught a few very basic 'physical ideas' which must be present in every movement of the internal arts, but are not present at all in any of the external arts I have seen. These 'physical ideas' cannot be 'partially done' - unless you count 'done poorly.' But I'm awfully sure no art aspires to do something poorly.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

training at our kwoon kind of evolves like that.

you start with mostly boxing and muythia strikes to learn to land a hit and get some decent conditioning from pad work ... move on to movements which are more or less concepts that require you to think . .. you are then introduced to the internal in small doses . .. and finally you concentrate mostly on the internal work.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maybe partially internal isn't as good as saying that it has an internal flavor .. . . some of the aspects are there but its not the complete focus.

perhaps its the mind portion of cultivating the body, mind, and spirit.

perhaps i have no idea what the fu ck im talking about.

[Shaolindynasty]

I am not argueing that moving from a simple to more complicated is a bad move but have you heard of this progression between what I think are completely unrelated styles. I think a progression similar to this happens within a style but the way he put it is sounded like he means unrelated systems like learning Bak Sil Lum to 5 animals to bagua/hsing yi/Taichi. I don't beleive that's the way things were intended. A similatr progression should happen within 1 complete style.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i haven't heard of it either, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that there is anything wrong with it.

what downfalls do you see with it?

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't really see downfalls to it but it is part of a larger conversation. He was using that "progression" to prove that internal styles are "more powerful" in some way. So he said that's how most schools progress you. When I told him I've never heard of that he said I should look cause he sees it but he didn't give me examples(cause I don't think he has any) so I posted here to see if anybody else has heard about it. They do somthing kind of like this in his school and I think him reading about most internal styles having known another style first makes him beleive that this is the way most people do it. H e is just trying to prove to me that internal is more advanced than external, I simply don't feel this is true and to me complex "superior" mechanics doesn't mean better than simple easy to learn mechanics. I think somtimes he tries to intellectualize and complicate things too much but he's alright.

[joedoe]

We follow a similar progression but within our style.

[Shaolindynasty]

We also follow a similar progression within our style BUT we don't learn a style then learn another to get "internal". What he described to me sounds like learn a few longfist forms, then a couple hung gar forms, then learning TaiChi. Each of those is complete by itself, they can stand on their own and don't need each other cause they can progress from external to internal within it's curriculum and training. A complete system is a complete system. There is more than one way to get the job done even if your job is "internal".

[joedoe]

Internal & external, when applied to whole systems, are pretty meaningless labels. Every style has some aspect of both in it. One cannot be called superior to the other when it comes to fighting.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

not when fighting but i think internal work developes greater focus which can carry over to the rest of your life.

[joedoe]

Can you elaborate? What do you mean by greater focus?

Generally I agree - internal work does give you wider benefits than the ability to fight with power.

[Shaolindynasty]

I guess I don't know cause my system has both. We have between the sets and suplement exercises, external and both soft and hard qigong. So I reap the benifits of all. It still alludes me to see how "internal" arts develop anything better than any other art. I see for instance Shaolin and Taichi as equal. Maybe that's just me, I must be a special person to be able to make the inferior external methods equal to the superior methods of the internal masters:rolleyes:

[Black Jack]

Why would anybody want to go from a simple system to a more complicated one???????????????

The simple approach is always the best approach. Keep it KISS.

From what I have seen from a pure physical perspective is that the internal arts, though having a very long learning curve, have some of the most simple "outward" apperance based moves than some of the external CMA I have seen.

I do not advocate styles per say anymore, I have my own personal opinons of course, but do what you do, but be honest with yourself, as to what it is.

[lightfoot]

I used to attend a school where you you started learning one form from chung chuan, then one form from wingchun, then a choi li fut form, then northern mantis. Other forms followed, finishing with some stuff from hsing-i, bagua and tai-chi chuan. Only when you'd proved you could learn all these were you taught the deadly, secret system, which I think was called Pa Ze(?).
I left well before this point.

[Yung Apprentice]

HHHMMMMMMMMM. I found this conversation interesting, because I plan on learning Hsing-Yi, and I've never studied any other CMA before this. I did TKD for two years about five or six years ago. What are some of your opinions on learning an internal style first? I agree with SD about external not being inferior to internal and that he views them as equal. But what do you think about starting an internal first? From what I understand Hsing-Yi is less complicated and more aggressive than it's internal cousins. So wouldn't this be a good style to start of and build a "foundation"?:confused:

[dezhen2001]

Shaolin Dynasty: a good post.

I just want to add in my thoughts. Why is doing an external system first benificial? The concepts and principles are totally different! In my own experience of moving from external to internal it's been more of a hinderance than a help. I've spent the last 18 months UN-learning everything i have done before. Perhaps it would have been better if i had done nothing before?
If you have a good teacher, learning the principles is easy - but applying them with a partner or in 'combat' is totally different! When i'm under any type of pressure, i tend to fall back on what has been ingrained inside me (13 years of karate training, as well as various other styles), so it makes it very frustrating.

For example: i have one Sihing who started around 4 months before me. He understands the skill very well, better than me, as he hasn't trained anything before. But when it comes to i guess 'fighting', my reactions and instincts are much better than his. Even though i am falling back on what i have done before, it still saves my @ss!

Yung Apprentice: don't worry. I'm sure you will have no problems, as long as you have a good Sifu and study hard :) you've already done research so i think know what u want,

david

[Shaolindynasty]

"I just want to add in my thoughts. Why is doing an external system first benificial? The concepts and principles are totally different! In my own experience of moving from external to internal it's been more of a hinderance than a help. I've spent the last 18 months UN-learning everything i have done before. Perhaps it would have been better if i had done nothing before?"

That's what I always thought. They are completely different. Why would you learn say Wing Chun before Hsing Yi or choy li fut before Bagua? It just doesn't make sense to me. They have nothing really to do with each other, I mean they don't even use the same basic movement. I think a system will move you from external to internal as you gain experience and learn to realx and all that I am not a big fan of saying "Oh that's an external form cause it's hard and fast or that's internal cause it's slow and soft". If you get to a "higher level" You should be both at the same time, in all your movements not just particular forms and styles.

[Fu-Pow]

Ahhh...the old internal vs. external debate.

I have a little bit different take on it than most people.

External martial arts are like highschool. They provide the basic techniques, basics of movement, a foundation, develop strength, balance, breathing methods. It is a foundation, if you will.

Internal arts (or aspects of "external" arts) are like graduate school. They contain more sophisticated, "mature" techniques. They use less raw muscular power and rely more on chi/spirit/mental aspects. They are more refined compared to there external counter parts.

Many people jump into an internal art like Taijii having never studied an external Shaolin-type art. It will take them a long time to achieve real world martial proficiency because they are essentially taking a college course having never completed highschool. True, the person studying the external art is going to have to "unlearn" some external movements. But in terms of self-defense they will be able to defend themselves much better than the person that is all theory.

That is as far as I'd carry the definition. Every art is going to be nearly completely different in how it makes the progression. The techniques and training are going to be different.

However, the unifying factor is the human body. It can only move in so many different ways. The most natural way for the body to move is in spirals. So the more linear an art is, the more muscular it is, the more external it is and the less efficient it is. The chinese call the principle of spiral movement Chan Si Jing or "silk reeling energy." It is common sense that the quickest way between two points is a straight line however in terms of the human body it is actually a spiral. So regardless of which art you are talking about at the higher levels you will see less hard linear movements and more soft spirally movements. Taiji is an art that exemplifies this.

Peace.

[Shaolindynasty]

"So regardless of which art you are talking about at the higher levels you will see less hard linear movements and more soft spirally movements"

I like to think of this as the better you get in your art the more subtle your techniques are through experience you learn how to maximize your bodies energy and use it effeciently. In the end alot of the different methods acheive similar results. There may be small differences though.

Fu Pow you are a CLF man right? So do you feel a Bagua or hsing yi man is superior to you?

I think the reason people feel like their ability is greatly improved by learning internal arter external is cause they are cross training. It's not that internal is superior but you are learning to see things in a different way, the more point of veiws you get on somthing the more complete the picture is or seems.

I'll just come right out and say it I feel like I can kick alot of Internal artists @$$ and alot of them could kick mine. See EQUAL nothing higher level aout their style.


P.s. This isn't about internal as a whole it's about the 3 styles(or related/Taoist) of Taichi, Bagua, and Hsing Yi and sombody commenting that these styles are superior to other styles because of their mechanics or whatever. I feel they are EQUAL and different.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

greater focus ....

i'm still a newbie but i'll elaborate the best i can.

there is just so much more internal stuff going on when you practice an internal style. you have to feel your feet breathing energy from the earth . . . feel it collected in your center ... shoot it out through the moving limb . .. focus it to the smallest possible point of impact and then through the target. in order for any of this to occur you have to be completely relaxed yet be able to snap into an attack at the last second. you must also have the right intent and be aware of your entire body at all times. all of this requires a clear mind which is an endeavor of its own.

at the point where all of the above become natural you have achieved a state of awareness and focus greater than most people would ever imagine. this makes you a more focused person, not just a more focused martial artist. sitting meditation would do the same thing for your focus eventually (or maybe more quickly ... i dunno ....i do know that sitting meditation is very benificial for internal arts allong with chikung of course).

you could probably reach the same state with all most anything, including external arts, but meditation and internal arts are designed to take you there. instead of having to cut your own path you just follow the one lain before you.

[Braden]

Like BlackJack mentioned, the application of the internal styles tends to be much, MUCH simpler than that of the external styles. I'm not sure where the 'complicated' idea came from.

Also, remember that internal does not mean soft, yielding, breathing methods, and all that other stuff. Practicing this does NOT mean you are practicing internal methods.

[Shaolindynasty]

"Also, remember that internal does not mean soft, yielding, breathing methods, and all that other stuff. Practicing this does NOT mean you are practicing internal methods."

This was my point when I said I don't like the catagories to begin with. So many of the "internal" benifits of the above posts also exsist in the "external" arts to. They do oporate on different mechanics but the mechanics also vary between the "internal" arts themselves. This whole thing started out of me saying those catagories are misleading and a horrible sweeping generalization. I guess that's where I'll end to. Internal and external are just words, and if your style is good then you'll have both I guess.

[Ray Pina]

My experience:

External emphasis: Hitting, low stances, strong horse, strong hitting, hitting, hitting. Techniques. Varies techniques.

Internal Focus: Body mechanics (using the upper back and shoudler, keeping a strong shape), keeping ones door closed, opening the other's door, good pushing angle, straight spine, using the hip, not the knee, internal power work, theories, not technique.

With internal, in my school, most have studied other arts, we don't need to be taught how to hit, but how to get in and open a good fighters door, hitting is the easy part. But, by using the upper back and shoulder, one get's an advanatge, by keeping a strong shape and not over extending the arms, but advancing a sa whole solid structure, that is another advanatge.

Also, theories of how to deal with different force pressure so one can handle any situation, over memorizing techniques for various situations.

I think these advanatges, when added up, become big. The largest advantage to me: A STRONG STRUCTURE, not breaking from this, not extending. Then driving with the legs through the person. One shot kill, not multiple punches. Control the entire person with your entire person. Hitting is easy. It's the other things.

[Ray Pina]

Also huge: Single weighted! On the back foot. Prevents having your front foot kicked out (at first).