Grappelers: Does the Guard/Mount expose the groin?

[fa_jing]

First, let me say that this is a real question. I'm not trying to put down grappling, in fact, if I had the time and the money I would love to study, probably BJJ. We do a little grappling in our school, when the fight goes to the ground, but I am pretty lost when this happens. My teacher does use the mount and guard on me, and I notice that sometimes his groin seems to be exposed. I will sometimes attack the groin with a light, gloved punch. He is pretty aware of this, and is able to deal, usually, but do those of you who train grappling more seriously practice to counter strikes to the groin? What is the strategy behind dealing with this? I want to know what to do if there are no rules protecting the groin. -FJ

[Budokan]

Sorry, but hitting the groin and imploding your opponent's testicles is against UFC rules.

K. Mark Hoover

[Ford Prefect]

You're safe when mounted on somebody, but I think the guard can leave you open sometimes.

[Water Dragon]

You can definately get to someone's groin when in their guard. Trick is, you have to have a decent guard pass first.

http://www.politicalliberalism.com/uploader/image/138.gif

[Martial Joe]

When you are in some ones guard you can thow knees to the anus...which hurts very bad.

I have been kneed in the grundle(nifgin) and it wasnt even hard and it hurt real bad...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Badger]

Not in the first UFCs.In UFC 5 Keith Hackney put some serious nut-cracking punches on Joe Son.Keith should market his special peanut butter making machine.˙ :p


In the mount position you sink your groin into his stomach as well as rain punches on his fa ce.He will soon realize a groin shot will not save him from this position.more than likely it will just make the guy on top madder.

In the guard position you keep everything tight when you triangle or armlock him. A broken arm is more painful than a groin shot or a bite(for those of you who think you can escape a juji-game by biting the guys leg)

In the street being in the guard would heck if the badguy had a knife.The cross mount is great for weapon defense.

Badger

BJJ is Superior to Mullets!G

[chokeyouout2]

If you attempt to strike someones groin while in their guard you will probably set up for a sub.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Water Dragon]

Like you've never tagged anyone there doing a standing guard pass :rolleyes:

http://www.politicalliberalism.com/uploader/image/138.gif

[JWTAYLOR]

When in a nice, tight closed guard it is pretty hard to really hit the groin with any force. It's right up against you and he has control of your hips.

In a not so perfect guard, or a loose open guard, there are oppornunities to to hit the groin. I, for one, think you are better off throwing a hard palm down on the bladder, but either way the shots can be there. Weather they are worth the risk is a different argument altoghether.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[chokeyouout2]

I cant say that I have.You mean pop up with one hand on the sleeve and one on the lapel?Thats my standing pass.It's unstoppable:)Sometimes when I stand I try to step on peoples feet to come around the leg;maybe then but not really.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Water Dragon]

No, we do a different one. When your in guard, shove a knee up against their butt. Now, you're gonna post up with the other leg and put your elbows into their inner thighs. Press down with your elbows to break WHILE your standing up. This is the point where you can crack them if they have a good guard. Otherwise, swing a leg out so you're in half guard and them work out of that.

http://www.politicalliberalism.com/uploader/image/138.gif

[chokeyouout2]

I rarely do that one.it's a good pass to get the legs open but like you said it might end up in the half.Plus I don't even wanna think about getting swept.Don't you train with Brennan?

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Boulder Student]

Your groin is exposed, but if you are playing the guard effectively and staying active in the mount you shouldn't have a problem. I think you are more exposed trading strikes. More space to work with. I think the biggest exposure is to a groin bite if you screw up a triangle.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[Water Dragon]

True, but remeber, I'm not a BJJ guy. I'm a Shaui Chiao guy who doesn't want to get caught with my pants down. I usually go for a stack from there so I can get away. With the nut shot, it's my patented Crack & Stack :D

http://www.politicalliberalism.com/uploader/image/138.gif

[Water Dragon]

True, but remember, I'm not a BJJ guy. I'm a Shuai Chiao guy who doesn't want to get caught with my pants down. I usually go for a stack from there so I can get away. With the nut shot, it's my patented Crack & Stack :D

http://www.politicalliberalism.com/uploader/image/138.gif

[KC Elbows]

Amateur question:
Do any of you know a site that has some examples of a lot of the moves you guys are talking about(guard, atc.). This is interesting stuff, but I'm pretty sure a lot of it is going right over my head.

Anyway, I beleive Nuttnhoney has some intimate knowledge of the topic. :D

[Merryprankster]

fa_jing,

As you can see, it's pretty much give or take. It's not easy to throw a nut shot if you're busy getting swept or trying to keep that from happening, or have your hands and arms all wierd from feet sticking in them at funny angles. Or if somebody is trying to submit you

On the other hand if some guy has guard and is just lying there, then it might be open.

As for the mounted position, it's really not that open at all. Aside from the various submissions that would immediately present themselves if somebody tried a nut shot, you are probably going to be more worried about the fact that somebody is doing the double knuckle shuffle on your face.

[Merryprankster]

http://www.intheguard.com/index_800.html

Go to technique factory. You'll get to see some stuff in there.

[Badger]

Try this one:
ˇweb page (http://members.aol.com/nyjiujitsu/index.html)

Badger

BJJ is Superior to Mullets!G

[Badger]

web page (http://bhk-jwclark.freeyellow.com/index.html)


Badger

BJJ is Superior to Mullets!G

[LEGEND]

The true guard is taught like this...close guard is to control your opponents body movement with the legs controlling the hip BUT also u should have control of the neck by using your arms...so your head would be next to his head...I would adovcate learning to break out of this position by pulling away with control of the bottom person stomach. In a street fight...bite the fool! He will let go of your neck!

Now the mount...the true mount is with the top guys knee driven all the way up to the armpits of the bottom guy AND grabbing the forearms/wrist of the bottom guy at the same time u're doing this so he can't strike you! So the fact that u're controlling his arms makes it hard for him to go for a grab!

A

[KC Elbows]

Thank you! And thank you! And thank you again!

Now lets see if I can edumacate myself a little.

[Merryprankster]

If you need any clarification, because pictures are rough sometimes, then post the link and ask and I'll be more than happy to help. So will some others :)

Knee on belly is better for fighting, IMO. Perfect combination of mobility and ability to whack somebody around.

[Badger]

Knee on the belly is great & hurts like a sunuvagun when youre the belly!

Badger

BJJ is Superior to Mullets!G

[Merryprankster]

I like that little outward breath grunty thing people do when you put them in knee on... and then when you yank it up and their face starts to turn purple...

I love this game!!!

[JWTAYLOR]

The pass that Water Dragon mentioned is the only one I know.

How do you do the sleve and lapel one mentioned without getting armbarred?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Badger]

Then you ask them if they need to pee as you are grinding.

OH YEA!!!


Badger


¨

BJJ is Superior to Mullets!G

[Merryprankster]

For a basic sleeve and lapel standing pass:

One hand on the lapels, keeping their back flat in the mat. One hand on hip.

Switch the hand on the hip to the sleeve on that side. Pull the sleeve into their body, by their hip, and wedge your elbow in on their hip, between their leg and abdomen.

Keep pressure on the hand on the lapel. Now, when you stand up, rock your weight forward a bit so they are slightly stacked, and your weight is on that hand on the lapel so their back is pinned to the mat. You have their sleeve on the one side or they grab both your legs and sweep you. Your elbow on the hip and pressure on the back keeps them from climbing their legs to armbar or triangle you.

You need one leg forward and one leg back a bit in a staggered stance, or, as soon as you let go of their sleeve and lapel to try to break their legs open, they'll grab both ankles and sweep.

As soon as your base is solid, there are different ways to actually break the closed guard. I usually bring both my hands to their hips, get my elbows inside on their thigh, and start breaking their legs open while getting one leg/knee forward so they can't close as easily. As soon as you have the room, put your forward knee and elbow together on that side to prevent them from foot fencing back in. Continue to break the legs open if needed, but I find that by this time, most have given up and bailed to an open guard.

[Martial Joe]

I am telling you guys...if your in some ones guard...knee them in the ass...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Rickson]

Shut up punk. you have no aura.

[fightfan]

Hello peaple!
First Id like to say that Im new here but Ive been lurking for a loooong time. Id also like to say that with the exception of a few, you guys are cool and I admire your way of thinking inteligently. Keep it up peaple. You rock!

Id like to give my humble opinion on this thread. Ive been training BJJ for 4 years(both sport and street)and boxing, but my roots are from traditional MA.
The guard position is a very tricky one in a street situation. First of all you really dont want to fight from it, but if you somehow end up on the bottom, the guard is where you want to be. The reason is because with the closed guard, you control the persons hips/legs with your hips/legs freeing your upper body to control his shoulder/head/arms.
The thing is that you must control his upper body and keep it really close to you. You must eliminate striking distance. The second you lose that control you must create distance from the person and counter attack. The best way to do this is to open the guard, place your feet on his hips, and start kicking the groing, chest, face, and hopefully push him off and make him lose his balance long enough for you to stand up quickly and finish the guy. There are also kicks to create space and stand up techniques against a standing opponent when youre still on the ground.
Of course a BJJ player is versed in a thousand different variations from the guard, but the basic strategy always stays the same. BJJ is the constant struggle for the dominant position on the ground.
Peace!

[LEGEND]

Joe...if that was the case then u would have single handedly defeated the GUARD( 80 some years tech ) LOL.

Why doesn't the knee in the ass works???
An experienced BJJ/Submission fighter( 3 months or less ) should be able to not only control your hips...but as soon as they feel knee movement in the top guy they will start wrapping their legs around the top guy legs or post against the top guy knees. Another thing is you have to establish base to knee a guy in the ass...not a recommended tactic to use if u're on TOP.

A

[gfhegel21]

The knee to the ass is not something I have personal experience with. However, I seem to recall it being used in some of the earlier UFCs. In these cases, fighters sometimes, with some carful positioning, would fire knees into the tailbone of the person whose guard they were in.

Didn't seem decisive, but I believe they made it illegal for one reason or another.

[JWTAYLOR]

Martial Joe, do you mean an actual knee strike? Or just placing your knee to pass the guard?

How would you knee them in the a$$? At most your thigh would ride and go under their butt, but remember their hips are up around you, so your knee might glance their butt, but that's about all. Nothing that would do any damage.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[fa_jing]

How to get 33 responses to a topic within 3 hours.
Just post a question about grappling in KFO!!

Seriously, thanks for the info. I suspected that there were ways to deal with a groin strike/grab.
Probably because of the competition rules, etc, this is not emphasized as much as it should be. I thought the reference to getting as quickly as possible out of a weak guard configuration, was telling, precisely for the reason of not leaving your groin exposed. The links to BJJ websites, showing moves, were awesome!! I really would like to get into this stuff. Once again, time and money. Same goes for TaiJi classes with Doctor Wu on Clark Street, oh well.

BTW, for those who speak Spanish, there is a Novella from Brasil that they show 9:00 eastern on Telemundo, called Uga Uga. It is funny as heck, eye candy is in full effect, and some of the principle characters belong to a BJJ club. They don't show much action, just the guys rolling around a little, from time to time. The main character seems to know kickboxing. Just a cultural reference for you folks.
-FJ

[Water Dragon]

You worked with Dr. Wu? Cool.

[KC Elbows]

Yeah, great thread, and welcome aboard fightfan. :)

[fightfan]

Thanks KC Elbows!

[GinSueDog]

I have accidently tagged a partner or two with my knee while passing there guard from time to time. It normally only happened with I was rolling with someone large and inexperienced. It can happen, but I find it hard to imagine a newbie being able to do it on purpose against someone with six months experience or more in BJJ.-ED

P.S.-It happened the times I used my favorite guard pass, shooting my left knee through there guard to my right side and gaining side control from there. Twice I shot my knee too low and tagged my partner in the groin on accident.

"Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them." --The Tick

[Xebsball]

Rickson!! :mad:

Live my friend Joe alone or ill kick your ass!!

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Nutt'nhunny]

Yes, you can control the hips and therefor the punching power. The whole beauty of the guard it being too close for striking, a half mount is bad for both parties. Very often in ground range the groin is exposed. Say I'm on top in the guard and I am digging my elbows into his thighs to get an ankle lock. As soon as I break his legs apart I can chain punch the groin, then take the ankles.


Heres a question. What Can I do from the 69 position, other than a leg bar? I hate this position. The jj books I have are vague on this subject

[jjj]

>>Say I'm on top in the guard and I am digging my elbows into his thighs to get an ankle lock. As soon as I break his legs apart I can chain punch the groin, then take the ankles.<<

I dint think its as simple as you make it sound...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Nutt'nhunny]

funny thats what the jj folks say, It is pretty easy of course the jj way is to rest both hands on their stomache and just deal with the head hitting till you break the clasp. There is too much of a "deal with it" factor in jj for my liking. Oh well limited ranges will do that for ya.

[jjj]

I am not sure what you mean. Anyhow, I wouldn't recommend just trying to pry the guys legs apart with your elbows if he is allowed to strike you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Nutt'nhunny]

yeah thats what I mean. Only with your guard up come down with double strikes to the insides to soften them up for groin attacks, passing the guard or ankle locks.

[jimmy23]

Nut n Hunny , its the NORTH SOUTH position, us grapplers are sensitive about remarks like that!


If its the street, pin his shoulders and tripod, then knee his skull.

MMA , look for armbars or neck cranks, or turn it into a side mount. usually, i use it for a transition to a better position, or , if Im feeling mean, I leave my gut right over his face and make him fight just to breathe.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[GinSueDog]

Nutt'nhunny,
What are you talking about? :confused:

BTW, the elbow trick just doesn't work on anybody with more then six months experience. You become conditioned to it.-ED

"Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them." --The Tick

[fightfan]

Nutnhoney, The problem with what youre describing is that you tie up both of your hands with that beginners elbow escape(not to mention that you leave your face wide open). Remember the guy on the bottom has both hands free and if he takes control of one of your arms and opens his guard, you are open to sweeps, triangle, armbars, and strikes.
Just as in any martial art, you must know how to do the technique to learn how to avoid it.

[fightfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nutt'nhunny:
yeah thats what I mean. Only with your guard up come down with double strikes to the insides to soften them up for groin attacks, passing the guard or ankle locks.[/quote]
You dont want to wait that long. As soon as they lift their arms for the double strikes you want to pull them in with your hips and regain control of their upper body. Or if the timing is right, open your guard,put your feet on his hips, and kick like a wild man to knock him out or make space for you to stand up.

[Water Dragon]

Fight fan, that's definately true. It comes down to a matter of opportunity. If I'm going for the pass and see the nut shot, I can get it. If you see it before me, you can kick me out. Now it comes down to the better fighter.

[shinwa]

The mount leaves you exposed to lots of things really. Just like any other technique/movement/stance/position. There's no such thing as an impenetrable position. I mean I usually feel way vulnerable in that position since I'm more of a striker myself. I'm always thinking 'what if he just slaps my throat hella hard, or rakes my eyes' and things like that. I mean the opponent isn't under any rule to try to punch you in the face or something senseless like that. I actually feel a little safer on the bottom from a striking standpoint. But of course as far as grappling I'm not as good as most of you guys.

[KnightSabre]

Shinwa - you would rather be at the bottom of the mount than the top?
I think you and a training partner should put on some glove and then take turns mounting each other and then add in strikes.
I think your opinion will change very quickly.
The mounted position (top) is a very advantageous position.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[shinwa]

Nah i dont see it that way. Being on the top GIVES a feekloing of superiority yes, but that breeds overconfidence. And once you looks past that feeling of superiority you see the adavntages that the guy on the bottom has. True his strikes won't be as powerful as the guys on the top, but they will be faster and less telegraphic. There is no winding up involved so they'll be harder to defend against if aimed at the proper targets. When you're on the top, you tend to **** your fist way the heck back there (Not everyone, but lots of people) and try to knock the stuffing out of the guy. ****ing up like that opens up even more areas.

Like I said, when I'm on the bottom I see throat strikes and eye exposure. When training I let my opponent know this by just reaching up and putting my hand on his throat before he pops me. I can take few punches, but how many strikes (not fatal) to the throat could I take? BUt i know that of course, there are advantages top bot positions. I'm not calling one superior to the other.

heh heh one time when we were going at it, I put one hand on his chin and the other on the sidetop of his head. If i would have twisted, he would have been over. Of course one time he chocked the living hell out of me :p

[JWTAYLOR]

Shinwa, how are you going to even reach my throat when I'm on top?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[LEGEND]

Shinwa...I don't think u're training partner has u full mounted! Full mounted should leave the top guy with a distinct reach advantage...the fact that u're arms we able to reach his throat and eyes...mean u're partner does not have a FULL MOUNT...I assume u're partner does not study BJJ??? The full mount should be where he moves his knee up into your armpits...while at the same time holding your wrists.

A

[Water Dragon]

Shinwa, how are you going to even reach my throat when I'm on top?

Ancient Chinese Secret

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, I got long arms. If the guy in the mount permitted it, I would almost certainly be able to reach the neck and face - I don't know much about BJJ and groundfighting generally, but it seems like there would be all kinds of opportunity to get a nasty armbar if I tried such a thing, though.

I always thought it wouldn't be that difficult to grab head or arms with your feet/kick and knee the head/neck/back while you were mounted, though. True enough, I haven't tested this theory, so maybe someone can explain how this is countered or how it's not possible.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Merryprankster]

Grab my throat from the bottom of the mount? Strike my eyes? I sure hope you have two attributes:

Exceptionally long arms (when I am bolt upright in a proper mount, reaching my face isn't easy)

The quickness of a cat. Reach up to touch my face... armbar anyone? I'm already going to it as soon as I feel that arm start to extend... and for those of you that say "I've scratched your eyes, you can't see now," I don't need to SEE to grapple.

So, chang, you're exactly right on that.

Shinwa-the fact that you were able to reach your partners head with your arms tells me that he hadn't an ounce of groundfighting experience.

The second part: You won't be able to kick or knee my head unless you have truly bizarre body proportions and flexibility. Kneeing me in the back is difficult.

Have a person simply mount you as commonly seen in grappling or MMA matches and try to knee their back/butt. I think you'll see how hard it is.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, Prankster, nothing beats empirical evidence. None of my friends are into MA like I am, though, and would probably stop talking to me if I asked them "Hey, you wanna sit on my chest and see if I can kick you in the head?" So until I get some new friends, I'll have to wait before I can test this out.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Ryu]

There's a difference in not having any BJJ experience and wrestling with people with no technical aspects and you not having any either, and having trained in BJJ for a period of time (at least a year or two) and THEN working out on your own from time to time.

You have to know the techniques before you practice them by yourself or with friends, and that means you have to have rolled and been taught in a BJJ school for a decent amount of time to get the basics.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Merryprankster]

Ryu,

Or some other groundfighting art.

I'm not really sure what you are getting at though.

[Chang Style Novice]

Now that I think about it, though, I think "Wanna come back to my place and straddle my chest while I try to kick you in the head?" is going to be my new pickup line.

Chicks dig that stuff.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Merryprankster]

Good point! :) Ask them if they'll choke you too :)

The reason I suggested what I suggested though, is because I think you'll find that you'll have a hard time doing that to somebody even if they aren't sure what to do on the ground.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I understand, Prankster. It's definitely a good idea for a guy like me to try it out.

Brings me to my next question, though -
what makes it that much more difficult for the mounted fighter to get joint locks and stuff than for the guy on top? I can see that there's definitely some leverage advantage there, but IME most qinna type techniques rely more on anatomy than gravity, if you see what I mean.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Merryprankster]

The guy being mounted has very few degrees of freedom of movement.

The ground is at his back.
In the up direction is an angry opponent.

Hip movement is restricted by the top man's legs.

Power and Momentum cannot be generated effectively because you're cramped up in a small space.

The name of the game on the ground is to overwhelm a single body part with your body.

Given the fact that your movement is restricted
it's hard to get into position to do much. Better to work your escapes.

I believe Sambo has some locks that can be done while being mounted. I don't know how easy they are to pull off, or how easy they are to do while getting tattooed by blows.

[JWTAYLOR]

You can reach his knees if he's in a lower mount, in a high mount your arms are going to be up, and maybe you can work down to put a hand on his calf, maybe. But the ankle and the foot are too far away. Throwing your feet over his head when mounted is pretty much impossible. Give it a try and I think you'll see real quick. You're body will be pressed to the ground from the midsection and up.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Chang Style Novice]

JWT -

Next time I don't have to work on a Saturday, I'll try to meet you down at your school and you can show me some of this, if that's okay with you. Like I say, I don't have any friends of my own who'd be willing to let me try it out.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[JWTAYLOR]

Cool. There are MUCH better instructors, there's a Machado school up in Round Rock. But I'm happy to show you what I know.
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Chang Style Novice]

Busses don't go to Round Rock, unfortunately. I've been too busy generally to even hit the Judo Club meetings on a regular basis, and this is one of the main reasons I joined up.

I look forward to meeting ya.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Jaguar Wong]

Chang Style,
Chin Na doesn't work too well in the mount. The guy on top has a lot of movement available to him, and there is no effective way to "lock his hips" if he's on top. I'm sure there are some possible desparation breaks (like the pinkie), btu you have to wonder about how easy it would be to get a hold of one, and you also have to wonder how effective it would be, since he's already on top, in a very advantageous position. Chin Na does rely a lot on range of motion, and anatomy, but if you can't use leverage, then it's just strength vs strength. The stronger guy wins, but the guy on top also has freedom of movement, so it's easier for him to "escape" the locks.

Like Merryprankseter said, it's better to work your escapes. :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[shinwa]

Err ok, I haven't read all of the replies since my last post. But people I train with are in positions similar to this http://bjj.org/images/Rickson/VT94/rg94-08.jpg So eyes, throat, top of the head and all of that are readily available. And also i'm not sitting there trying to let him get in the position that's best for him. That would be absurd. I just wanna clarify something, I'm not at all saying being on the top sucks. No way, no how. I'm just the type of guy who looks for the good and bad in every single position there is. And both exist in all of them.

dude, sure you may not need to be able to see to grapple. But come on man, you telling me that if some dude messes your eye up you're gonna stay there in the mount and calmy grapple with him? I highly doubt that as i don't believe in Supermen. If anything you'll at the very least lose your position.

But then again anything is possible.

I think we just look at things from different perspectives. You seem to be primarily a grappler, so when someone mounts you, you think of outgrappling him and escaping the mount.

Whereas I've been primarily a striker for the past 19 years, so when someone mounts me and prepares to strike, I think 'ok how can i outstrike him and get outta this position'. Bcause situations like the mount are EXCATLY what emergency techniques like Bil Jee are for. Getting the hell out of dodge.

[This message was edited by shinwa on 11-12-01 at 10:29 AM.]

[Martial Joe]

LEGEND...When they let go for a short time and dont have their feet crossed that is when you have the chance...and you can not tell me you can do it.
I watch Jerry Bohlander do it...
And it must be effective or they wouldnt have made it illigal.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[shinwa]

lol Legend. Well yeah if he's holding my wrist and has his knees in my elbows, no way I could hit him. Fortunately he doesn't catch me in that much of a bind. Like i said, I'm not sitting there saying 'ok, make me submit'. That's like me saying, hey if you have me in that position and let me put my mouth on your neck, I will bite you and there is no escape. And then him actually DOING it.

But even still when he's adjusting his position, that gives me time to adjust my position and work on escaping. But no, I've never been that caught up. To grab my wrist you have to reach for them, when you reach for my wrist, I will be reaching for you. It's just a matter of who gets where first, and TONS of other variables that weigh into the situation. If he catches me in what I can't get out of, I'm done. If I catch him when he's trying to catch me, he's done. No claims of one being superior to the other here.

[Merryprankster]

I'm telling you exactly that.

I was once poked in the eyes (Intentional. Ref didn't see it) during a wrestling match so badly that my depth perception went completely and I was seeing triple. I just closed my eyes and never let him up off the mat. Pinned him not too long later.

Pain is pain. It had best incapacitate me, or I'm just going to get more focused on winning. In a fight, that means instead of choking somebody, I'll beat on them.

If those targets are available, and you feel comfortable getting to them, then who am I to judge. Be aware that the armbar is right there, though.

[fa_jing]

Yep, me and Sifu were sparring last night, we went down together, he tried to put me in the guard. I threw some light elbows just above his groin, then he rolled over me and put me in an armbar - but then he acknowledged that I had the groin shots. A small consolation for an otherwise mediocre night of sparring - I was too tight and unable to relax. We had too much of a layoff with the sparring, almost 6 weeks. Then I sparred the other student, he is a very strong fatso with a grudge against me, for no apparent reason, other than that I am the senior by a few months, and I like to wipe down the sparring gear after he sweats all over it.. I had just sparred four 3-minute rounds with Sifu, 2 boxing and 2 kick-boxing, he did his rounds w/Sifu earlier. I wore the 14-OZ. gloves, fatso got the 12-ouncers. We use headgear. Me and fatso first did a round of hands, neither one of us put up much defense, it was like a Rocky movie with us trading punches. This was to my detriment, as he lacks control, will take a shot to give a shot, for me it's difficult to deal with haymakers from a 270-pounder. At one point he really rocked me with a right, this is the hardest I have ever been hit, my legs turned to jelly briefly as Sifu called break. Fatso, as always, claimed he used control. My consolation was that Fatso had to vomit immediately, this happens to him about every other sparring session. Sifu stopped the clock, I briefly considered calling it quits and go home with my tail between my legs, but I decided to tough it out, which turned out to be a good decision. There was only about 40 seconds left in the round, things were about even until I put his head underneath my arm, he manage to get underneath me and lift me up pretty easily, I felt I could have somersaulted over his back while retaining the choke hold, but that could've broken his neck, obviously way too dangerous a move for sparring, especially since I've never tried this before. Sifu called break again anyway. Next round - punching and kicking, Fatso can't kick for crap. Sure he can load up for a rear leg kick against the air shield, but when it comes to moving dynamically, he stinks and can't land anything. I decided to take the high road and not break his leg for trying to clean my clock the previous round. Every time he would kick, I'd wait for him to put his foot down and step in with a front kick to his gut. This is so easy it's not even fun. Well, a little bit. I also can land the low round kick to the leg real easy. I don't think he landed anything on me the whole round, maybe a couple of punches, while I had my way. After I got him frustrated with the kicks, I was able to step in and punch his face too. Afterwards, he was upset, and claimed he was holding back because Sifu was criticising his lack of control. He said it wasn't fun, he didn't learn anything, and felt like a punching bag. I'm thinking, he's complaining, while I'm the one who is eating fatso-haymakers? Then he wanted to go another round, Sifu wisely told him to wait till next time. Fatso is immature, he's only 21, and lives and grew up in a tough neighborhood, where he has been in many fights, in addition to a wrestling and football background. Talking with Sifu afterward, it's clear that fatso goes beserk when he spars and can't make the distinction between sparring and fighting. He lets his ego get in the way and if you hit him once, he'll only be satisfied if he hits you 5 or 6 times. The fact that our sparring session ended with me punching him (lightly) in the face upset him. I am upset because my punch defense stinks, and because I didn't react immediately to put fatso in his place. The adrenaline had me up most of last night. Today I am slightly woozy but I don't know if it's from lack of sleep or the shot I took. I think fatso is good to spar against, Sifu hasn't let us go at it too much because of fatso's control problems, but now it is time for me to learn to deal with a beserk strong fat guy, even during the rounds where we are just boxing. I don't want to be getting hurt like this every week, but it is a good lesson to know that I could keep going after taking a shot like that. Hopefully, we can make up and focus on learning, rather than victory, during sparring. I might have to inflict some pain on this guy if he talks smack, I will ask Sifu if we can go at it hard for a few rounds. Believe me, I will use my kicks, if it comes to this. I would put up my status as senior if we did this. Fatso definitely won't listen to reason, at least not from me, maybe Sifu can talk some sense into him. Fatso needs to realize that we are in school to learn from another. Anyway, hopefully I'll be better prepared next time we spar, I think some chain punches would be pretty effective against this opponent. 6 rounds is tough, it is the most I have ever gone. That plus getting my brain rattled caused me to screw up the opening to our Sil Lim Dao form, which we praticed after sparring. This is obviously going around my head alot, I am aware that a plane crashed in NYC today. I want to pray for peace, and smack fatso at the same time. Oh well, now I've got it off my chest, the healing can begin...
-FJ

[fa_jing]

Look at the picture you posted. Fighter on bottom clearly could attack fighter on top's groin, using his elbow. Agree?
-FJ

[shinwa]

That's pretty impressive MerryPrankster.

yah i know the armbar is there, but there are also tons of possibilities there if I try to outgrapple a superior grappler heh heh. Positives and negatives, everywhere.

thanks for the convo though man.

[shinwa]

Fa Jing-yeah he could dfinitely. Rickson probaly has on a cup though, since he's such a top level fighter I wouldn't put it past him to absorb the groin shots. Your average fellow would prob be taken out though heh heh.

[Merryprankster]

Agreed Shinwa-

Positives and negatives everywhere you look. Whatever works is the best option :)

[Ryu]

Of course, Merryprankster.
I was saying that someone shouldn't say he trains "grappling" if he hasn't been formally instructed in it for some time. That includes all arts. :)

It was the early morning when I posted, and I was groggy.. sorry. ;)

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Merryprankster]

Thanks Ryu, now I understand :)

[Jaguar Wong]

Yes Ryu, I agree completely. When I'm working the heavybag, I use punches that I've learned in Kung Fu, but they resemble the punches from Boxing. But since I have never formally trained in boxing (I watch a lot of boxing, but I don't practice it), I wouldn't say that I know boxing. There's much more involved in a style than just what you see on the outside. :)

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx