View Full Version : Better muscles.
05-14-2001, 03:13 PM
I training with low weights and I don't want big muscles because I want to be fast!!!
So do I have to eat still lot of protein even if I don't want big muscles.
05-14-2001, 03:19 PM
Training Olympic lifts with HEAVY weights, low volume, and high frequency is the best way to stay small but get extremely powerful and fast.
05-14-2001, 03:20 PM
Oh, I'd say you'd still want a balanced diet as far as carbs/protein/fat goes.
05-15-2001, 03:35 AM
Ford, I've seen you post quite a few times concerning "Olympic Lifts". Where can we learn more about it?
05-15-2001, 04:02 AM
I'm about to order Pavel T. (i'm not even gonna try to spell his last name so T will have to do) book/video (havent decided which yet). It seems his workout system or whatever you call it aims at exactly what your talking about. If your interested you can approach his books at:
Free thinkers are dangerous.
05-15-2001, 09:14 AM
Ford - Heavy sets? low reps? That stimulates fast twitch muscle fibers dude....that makes you bigger. If you can prove otherwise though, I'm interested in hearing it :)
As for you jackiech, you don't really have to worry about consuming excess protein. you only need enough to maintain your current size - if your current size is where you wish to stay. you need to watch total caloric intake and fat intake. You don't sound like you want to get bigger, and you definitely don't want to get fatter. What is your current training regimen? you said that you are currently training with low poundages, so you are on the right track. (FORD - low poundages + high reps stimulate slow twitch fibers - that's what you want to do if you don't want to get big.) Also, what is you cardio program like?
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A fool speaks because he has to say something."
05-15-2001, 07:17 PM
I'm not trying to rail against you, so don't take it that way. (tone is hard to convey over the boards...) But the FACT that lifting heavy weights combined with low volume, long rest periods between sets, and NOT training to failure will give you strength gains without adding bulk is commonly accepted by any and all strength trainers. I'm talking about the kind of trainer that actually studies medical research, trains olympic and professional athletes, etc & not the buff dude that helps chicks lift weights in the local gym.
The results of such an approach can be seen in powerlifters who compete in restricted weight classes. Do you think that the 132 pound lifters that bench 400+ lbs, deadlift 700+ lbs, and squat 600+ pounds got that way because they use high rep/low weight routines? Nope. They lift as heavy as possible as often as possible and yet they don't gain weight. The secret? Like I said before, low volume and lots of rest.
Let's first get into what makes a person "bulk up". They are most likely undergoing a process called "sarcoplastic hypertrophy". You'll premote this by lifting like a bodybuilder (or to failure in general) This is because you deplete the muscles stores of ATP which is used for protein synthesis (ie work). This will in a sense "tear down" the muscle and send it into catabolic shock in which lean mass is decreased. Your body will combat this by going into an anabolic state and building more muscle and sarcoplasm (the jelly like filler subtance that aids in providing energy) than was originally there. Voila! You bulk up!
When you lift heavy, keep the volume low (2 sets of 5 reps per exercise is what Pavel T, whom QeySuS referred to recommends), take long rest periods between sets (3-5 minutes to restore ATP), and never train to failure (ie minimize fatigue) your muscles under-go "myofabrillar" hypertrophy. Since your ATP isn't being depleted but your muscles are still being taxed, your muscle fibers themselves will become stronger and grow additional myofabrils which are what actually contracts the muscle. Basically you strengthen your existing muscle rather than building up new muscle. On top of that, your nervous system will contract the muscle more efficiently. Now you will most likely put on a few pounds (literally a few pounds) initially. However on an extended program like this, weight gain is at a minimum. Since Jan 1st, I've added about 80 lbs to my deadlift, 25 lbs to my bench and weighted pull-ups, and I haven't gained a pound for my effort. All this at a lean 6' 165 lbs.
Another bonus to myfabrillar hypertrophy over sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is that since you muscles actually become denser, they are less likely to be deformed by your skin/fascia, so you will appear to have more definition. Basically, you become rock hard. You may feel rock hard after those high rep low weight workouts, but that's because your muscles are so depleted of ATP that they stiffen up! Pavel even referrs to this in his book and calls the people the walking dead because the results are similar to rigormortis.
I'd definately recommend the book. For those of us that don't speak Russian or German, it is some of the best material around.
Olympic lifts are whole body lifts that build incredible amounts of coordinated strength, balance, power, and speed. Some examples are:
The Snatch (my favorite)
& The Clean and Jerk
05-15-2001, 11:12 PM
I am so staying out of this discussion!
As a side note, I recently received Power to the People by Pavel Tsatsouline, and I can assure all of you that this book kicks some ass. This summer I've decided to concentrate on his strength training methods (ie. so I'm not going to gain any size) so far they're working quite nicely, but it's been only 3 days... hehehe... if anyone's interested, I'll periodically post results and let you know how it's going.
But yeah, I'm staying out of this argument. Sorry guys =D
05-16-2001, 02:38 AM
Pretty soon Pavel isn't going to be able to answer questions anymore on his forum. He's getting very popular, very fast. But it's a good thing. The info is great and these american ballooned up bodybuilders need to get popped.
05-16-2001, 06:15 AM
Pavel has a message board? Where?
You could say I'm a clueless stupid ballooned up American bodybuilder =D hehe, j/k... sorta
05-16-2001, 03:22 PM
He used to answer your questions in a day or so, but since his star has been on the rise, it may take up to a week.
05-17-2001, 02:09 AM
That makes sense. you didn't say not training to failure in that post though, and when I see heavy weight and low reps, I automatically think of training to failure.
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A fool speaks because he has to say something."
05-17-2001, 03:54 PM
I just got an email from Dragondoor.com they are going to start charging 40.00 per year to use the forum. they have been swamped with people seeking pavels advice.. Yikes
From your above post, I understand that 2 sets of 5 with about a 3 minute rest is Pavels strength training workout. Some questions I have on this is;
Does your body become sore like bodybuilding training (i.e. walking funny from squats and not being able to wash your back cos chest is so sore)
What does this do to your figure. Will the muscular physique stay with a person?
Also, what will this do to ligaments and tendons?
01-23-2002, 09:35 AM
Sorry but I just read most of this and thought I'd respond. Power training will cause the least DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) of the types of training you can do. As far as your figure, if you are out of shape it will help you get into a better shape but will not cause very much muscle hypertrophy, if any. The volume isn't high enough. As for ligaments and tendons this is the best form of exercise for all connective tissues. Cardiovascular training has almost no effect if you are already in decent shape, you need heavier weight to trigger increases in connective tissue strength. This is also the best method of increasing bone density and skeletal strength.
I am going to purchase the book tonight(power to the people), I am curious(just cos Im at work bored and nothing to do) I was training last night, using some of the strength training techiniques and I mixed it up a bit just to see what would happen. This is what I did. Being that I would like big arms and shoulders (when I say big I dont mean huge just noticable) I used the strenght training principles on the muscles Iwant to maintain size and gain strength and used the bodybuilding principles on the muscles I would like to grow.
In your guys opinion,
Is this a viable routine?
Do you see any concerns/ health issues with training like this.
Is it a fallacy that you can train one part of your body for strength and one part for size.
It must be slow at work,
01-23-2002, 10:19 AM
aww man im confused, im trying to bulk up at the moment (im underweight), and i thought it was 3 sets of 8 reps for that, but is it train heavy to failure? please help
01-23-2002, 10:49 AM
Holy old post! Let's see here...
Your body will become sore if it is your first time in a while working out. However, if you already lift heavy, then their will be a minimal adaption where you'll experience some DOMS. I've used Pavel's methods before, and I experienced pretty much nil DOMS for the entire time.
There are many ways to get big. 3 sets of 8-10 is the generic western "body building" approach. My advice would be to just keep it basic. If you are a hardgainer or already rather small, I'd avoid a regular bodybuilding split. (ie Mon - chest/tri's , Tues- back/bi's, etc) I'd go more for 2-3 days per week of working out with a few (ie 2-4) basic exercises that will hit your whole body. Also, eat A LOT! You can't get big if you don't eat like a big guy.
01-23-2002, 10:53 AM
Thanks a lot Ford, one thing i forgot to ask though, what about rest between sets for bulk, about 90 seconds? Thats what i employ currently.
01-23-2002, 11:00 AM
It really depends, but you definately don't want to rest too much. One of the most basic bodybuilding equations is: More work + less rest = bigger muscles.
Have you had a chance to look at my last questions. EP,Ironfist-anybody?
01-23-2002, 01:24 PM
Is there any other way to get pavels power to the people book? Online ordering can only be done with credit cards (im only 17 and only pay/card method i have is switch). Is it on sale in ordinary book shops or is it online order only?
01-23-2002, 01:29 PM
Shaolin36, generally speaking in order to grow you need to take in more calories, and your body generally will grow proportionally, according to your genetic potential. You can have a lagging body part but focusing on one part probably isn't the best idea. You can work different rep ranges if you wish, basically however you are comfortable.
One thing ford said that I disagree with but not a major is the More Work+Less Rest=Bigger Muscles. Really you should have more rest. If you are training for strength or hypertrophy you should take longer rests so that your muscle can refill with ATP. This generally takes 3 minutes maximum. Less rest would be working your muscles aerobically and you'd suffer a greater strength decline from set to set.
I would recommend taking things slowly. When you perform major compound lifts with heavy weights it's easy to injure yourself.
I did this last night unfortunately. Minor strain to my hamstring I believe. Never good when your hammy makes a popping sound in the middle of stiff-legged deadlifts. Oh well, I'll rest it for a while and start back at it. I went from 310lbs to 340lbs and that's when it happened. Not a huge increase in weight, maybe it was already injured from something else and that just was the last straw...not scaring you away from these lifts, just telling you to respect the weight and your body. Bodybuilding has one of the lowest rates of injury of any sport.
01-24-2002, 08:09 AM
Hehehe. Like I said, there are many ways to skin a cat. The more work + less rest was just an axiom that old-school bodybuilders like Arney, Loe, and Francisco abided too that was based on volume training for muscle mass. (ie Poliquin's German Volume Training & Tsatsouline's Bear Program)
EP has it right. Generally, your body will grow proportionally. Your problem areas will catch up with the rest of your body.
Not sure, but you may be able to order the book through a Barnes & Noble store. I doubt they'd have it on-hand though.
01-24-2002, 08:54 AM
I've been thinking of going to the gym to gain more strenght and explosive power. I'm not skinny or anything, but then again I don't have that big muscles either. So, to develope maximum strenght, would it make any sense to go for "sarcoplastic hypertrophy" first to increase the muscle size and than after a few months, switch to "myofabrillar hypertrophy" to increase the maximum strength?
And just to make sure, is it true that training for maximum strenght developes the fast twitch muscle fibres, which increases the explosive power and makes you fast? And is it possible that training like this would compromise the flexibility?
01-24-2002, 09:19 AM
You can actually train both to great effect at the same time. Westside Barbell Powerlifting Club has set up a conjugated periodization style that covers both at the same time. Considering they have many guys squatting over 900 (some over 1,000) and many guys benching 600-700+ lbs, I think it is safe to say that their methods work. For articles on their lifting style go to:
If you just want to see some of their records for lifts, go to:
I used their methods to bulk up. I was about 155 when I started the basic west side program. I ended up being about 190 (no supps but a MRP) after 3 months. I was A LOT stronger too. Give 'em a whirl. Oh, and no you won't lose flexability as long as you stretch to maintain it.
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