Duty of Care

[Goktimus Prime]

DISCLAIMER: This message is NOT intended as a criticism of Shaolin Wuchu Kung Fu as a style, NOR is it a criticism of the arm-knocking technique. This is a criticism of a school and its questionable teaching ethic.

Last Friday a friend and I visited a Shaolin Wuchu Kung Fu school in Sydney's North Rocks. During the course of the evening, the final activity was something known as arm knocking, which is similar to Pi Gua, but this version was far more extreme -- to the point where it was dangerous.

For the benefit of those who may not know, these sort of techniques fundamentally involve two partners slamming their arms (or legs) against each other in order to build up the arm or leg's tolerance to a hit -- in otherwords, to build endurance and resistance. Now, I have nothing against this - in fact, I support it. There's no use in learning how to fight if you're going to be overwhelmed by pain when you get hit -- such exercises are designed to give you that sort of endurance that would allow you to absorb a hit and fight on without being overwhelmed by pain.

However, what went wrong last Friday was that the arm knocking was far too extreme. I'll admit that I'm not the most built nor athletic fellow in the world -- certainly not someone with a rugby player sort of build. But the fact is that the instructor/seniors of the class should be able to judge/evaluate what your level is, and train with you according to that.

Going to slow and easy may be boring for someone who's done endurance work before (not necessarily martial arts, footy players are usually rather durable people, since they get tackled on the field all the time) and so it makes the lesson more interesting if you go up a few "notches" to accompany the student's physical level.

However, the LIMIT of that student needs to be respected. Learning/teaching needs to be a gradual process.

Here's a few analogies to illustrate my point:

1. Say you're learning to high jump. It would be rather unreasonable to ask a student, on his/her first lesson, to jump over a 3m bar. Usually you learn to jump over, say a 1m bar, then 1.5m, then 2.5m and gradually working your way up to 3m or more. It's a _gradual_ process.

2. Medical students aren't allowed to do internships in hospitals until at least second year, and even then, it will be many more years until they are allowed to operate on a patient. You don't walk up to a first year med student, give him/her a scalpel and say, "go remove that blood clot from that patient's brain."

3. Teaching children to read is also a gradual process. In the English language, one is first taught the Roman Alphabet. Then you're taught how to string words and syllables together. Then how to form words into sentences, then compound sentences. Then paragraphs. Then a page. Eventually, you can read a small book, then a bigger book... you do NOT give a kindergartener a copy of War and Peace and say, "go nuts, kid."

4. Weight lifting: when working out at the gym for the very first time, your instructor would have to be a lunatic to get you working on a 90kg barbell. You usually start with light hand weights - maybe as small as 1-3kg, then work your way up from there.

And likewise, you simply do NOT go full ball on a newbie in your martial arts class -- NOT without some sort of basic evaluation at first. The first stage of this would be visual evaluation. You look at the person and ask yourself -- does this person look durable enough to absorb arm swings at maximum velocity?

And if a person says, "I've done Kung Fu before," still doesn't mean that they're ultra durable. They may have done something as simple as Tai Chi exercising in a park.

For instance, I'm a student teacher atm, and if a new kid were to come into my class and say, "I've studied some Japanese before," or "I've lived in Japan before," I'm not going to immediately upgrade them to HSC Background Speaker level. No. What would be the first thing I should do? That's right -- evaluate the student.

When I train martial arts with friends, I don't immediately go full force on them. I start of slowly and easily at first -- this helps me to gauge their level of fitness, strength and dexterity. Based on this initial evaluation, I can then either go "up" or "down" a notch, depending on how much my partner can handle.

This was NOT done at the place I went to last Friday. Sure, I told them that I'd done Northern Mantis before, but they did NOT do ANY evaluation to see how good or bad I am at my own art! I'll be the first to admit that I'm no Shaolin Monk when it comes to Kung Fu. And to presume that I was, is rather foolish.

Now, here's where legal complications step in. As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), all martial arts instructors must abide by the sports coaching regulations of the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport) - which also specifies, under safety regulations, what an instructor can and cannot do to students.

A teacher of ANYTHING (sports, martial arts, Japanese, maths, geography, economics etc) has duty of care of his/her students whom they are teaching. While in their CLASS (and this is why martial arts training sessions are legally defined as "classes") the welfare of the students is a responsibility of the instructor(s).

Even if I sign an indemnity form (which, incidentally, I didn't last Friday), this does not waver my rights. NOBODY can legally waver his/her own rights (e.g.: you can not sell yourself to slavery, even if you and your potential master wanted to -- no person is able to waver their rights). They are NOT permitted to take a course of action that would sustain injury upon me.

Now, some of you may be thinking, "but you're doing a martial art, you'd have to be a fairy idiot not to expect some injury." This is true. If you do any form of physical training - be it sport or martial art, a reasonable level of injury can be expected. However, here's what happened last Friday -- we started doing the arm knocking, and I said, "Oww, this is painful, stop it!" in which one other student merely mocked me for "not being strong" (duh, excuse me for disliking extreme pain) and the seniors who were instructing me argued that this was beneficial for me. So here's some more legal factors:

* I'd already pointed out that the exercise was painful and that I wanted to stop.
* I was told that the exercise was beneficial and coerced to continue.

Some might say that *I* always had the option to just stop. But the fact is that a student tends to put some level of faith in the teacher.

I was there to learn. Therefore, I was willing to do what the instructor told me to do. However, the instructor has a responsibility (duty of care) to instruct me in a safe and proper manner as humanly possible.

When a student starts saying, "this hurts and I wanna stop," it's a bloody good sign that there's something wrong.

Another thing that they could have done to better evaluate if I could have performed the arm knocking at that level or not is practising the move in the air. Almost ALL martial arts I've participated in - Wing Chun, Aikido/Taijutsu, Karate etc. (even TKD!!), practice this. You get taught a move. You practice it a few times on your own, then you do it with a partner -- and even then, you tend to go easy the first few times, and then you begin to accelerate as you both become more adept at the move (but never faster/stronger than you can handle).

As a result of what seems like legal negligence (and just downright stupidity - what other purpose could the seniors have, other than pumping their egos, to go full ball at me? I can NOT learn something if you show me the result of what you want me to learn, without leading me through the stages of getting there! Just as a person can NOT learn how to perform maths, if s/he's not first taught how to count!) I know have internal muscle bruising - which isn't so bad. It's more of a nuisance if anything, because I can't really do anything /w my arms (it really hurts just to type all this!). Thank goodness I'm on holidays atm -- if this happened during a prac block, I'd be stuffed (kinda hard to write on a whiteboard when your arms are buggered). And it would be even worse if I was working full time atm, <u>especially</u> if I was a manual labourer, where my arms are my livelyhood. What excuse can the school offer to such people? They need to realise that this is the 21st Century -- people have jobs and lives outside of Kung Fu and would require the use of their limbs!

And even from an ultra hardcore martial artist perspective -- what's the use of learning a technique, if it leaves you unable to fight for a week or so? What if someone attacks you while you're on the way home from training? If someone attacked you while your arms are recovering, you would be at a significant disadvantage in the fight!!

Again, please note my disclaimer; this message is NOT a flame on Shaolin Wuchu KF, nor is it a criticism of the arm knocking technique. It's simply a criticism of the teaching ethic of the school I went to last Friday.

PS: My friend who came along seems to have suffered more damage, as he said that he heard something in his arm snap when they hit him. We are now waiting for some medical examination results to see just how extensive the damage is to his arms. This person has almost NO experience with martial arts or much sport activities. He came along to see what martial arts are like, and I'm sad to say that last Friday's experience has put him off Southern Kung Fu for quite some time.

PPS: Another newbie in the class was a TONGAN. Even *he* was complaining about the pain!

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[Goktimus Prime]

Here's what's happened since I posted that last message.

First of all, my friend who went did receive far worse damage than myself. I was bruised. He received STRAINED LIGAMENTS, since he's never done any form of martial art before.

Secondly, I went back to that school and had a friendly chat with the head instructor and two of the seniors.

Here are their counterarguments:

1. Their teaching IS gradual. They pointed out the fact that beginners are taught basic postures within the first form. I don't know why they brought this up, because my main issue was with arm knocking, not with their formwork.

2. Arm knocking is NOT intended for beginners. I do NOT recall being told this. They argued that they did not specifically ask me to participate in arm knocking, but then again, they didn't tell me not to. Not only that, but when they saw me doing arm knocking, they didn't tell me to stop but stepped in and showed me what to do, telling me to slam my arms against my partner's as hard as I can. If arm knocking is not a beginner's move, then they should have either told me to sit it out, or if they felt that I could do it, then they should ensure that I knew how to do the moves properly and make me fully aware of the risks involved with it (which they didn't. I was told that this exercise would be beneficial). I told them that before they do such moves, they should gather the beginners and say, "look, what they're about to do is an advanced moves and you should not attempt it unless you feel that you can, and even then, please be aware of the following risks..."
I mean, a science teacher will not simply allow ANY student to conduct an advanced experiment -- certainly not without ensuring that the students doing the experiment knows what they are doing. Especially if it involves hazardous chemicals or bunsen burners.

3. In another attempt to deflect liability on me (uh huh), they said that I had been endangering other students by trying to incorporate other martial arts techniques into their drills. In Praying Mantis, we're always taught that if a move fails, to move on and do something to cover yourself or attack the enemy, rather than just standing there like a stunned mullet. BUT, if this is a problem with this school, then the instructor SHOULD have stepped in and said, "no, we do not want you to do this, please stick to the drill." But they didn't. I heard no complaint about my training moves until TODAY (a week later). If the instructors saw what happened, then they should have interrupted or even stopped the drill. This is part of their duty of care. If anything, this shows that THEY have been negligent in looking after the student that I'm sparring with. Unless I directly try to break his skull or something, my sparring partner's welfare is a responsibility of the teacher. I could easily break a person's knee just by accidentally falling on them. But the liability goes to the instructor (and usually can be easily absorbed by his insurance agent). It is the TEACHER's responsibility to ensure that students are not endangering each other. Unless my sparring partner tells me that I'm going too fast or applying too much pressure, *I* don't know how far to go. I'm obviously not going to spar in slow motion, because people just don't fight that way -- but if the person I'm sparring with is relatively slow due to inexperience/lack of sufficient training, then I'll be willing to slow down for them. It is the <u>teacher's</u> responsibility to make sure that students are training properly, NOT the student's. Another difference between what I did to my sparring partner in that drill and what happened to me in arm knocking is that I specifically told them that it WAS hurting me. They paid no notice and told me to continue. Again, they were just trying to deflect responsibility away from themselves.

4. They pointed out that I had not read/signed their indemnity form. Which is true, at the time, I really couldn't be bothered. But if this form contains conditions that are vitally important (e.g.: please be aware that we are going to knock you about in this school), then they should INSIST that I read the conditions of their school. And if I continued to refuse, then they should simply refuse to teach me! They are fully within their rights to say, "look, we won't let you participate in this class until you have read the conditions of joining." At very least, they could have even verbally explained to me the conditions/risks of joining the class or participating in a certain drill.

5. They tried the presumed knowledged argument (oh, the conversation was so predictable). They said that if I were to do jogging, that I would be endangering myself to certain leg injuries. And since Shaolin Wuchu is a contact martial art, that I should be aware of the risks. As I explained before, this is NOT true. Unlike jogging, tennis, cricket, rugby league or even more well known martial arts like karate and taekwondo, Shaolin Wuchu KF is NOT part of general public perception. When you ask any layman what they think of martial arts, they'll probably think of Bruce Lee or even Jackie Chan movies, which we all know is NOTHING like real Kung Fu!! Even if they presumed that I knew something about Kung Fu, KF is very diverse! I could have done something as simple as taichi in the park. Most of my experience of Kung Fu has been Northern styles - praying mantis, taijiquan, changquan and bazhua. I'm *not* used to seeing their sort of Southern bashing about. Shaolin Wuchu is unique and special, and thus can NOT be classified as presumed general public knowledge.

6. They tried to argue that they're adhering to traditional Shaolin techniques. First of all, their techniques are not only dangerous, but illegal. These ancient techniques were developed in another country in a feudal time period! People had shorter life expectancies and most Shaolin Monks had no life outside the monastery (thus they didn't have to worry about going to work the next day with sore arms). However, even according to Shaolin legends, the Monks not only beat the crap out of each other, but they also looked after one another. The Monks healed and fed each other. Even then, here's something I'm unsure about. How can Wuchu be shaolin and fujian at the same time? Are these not completely DIFFERENT places of China? (perhaps I'm not interpreting something correctly here)

7. The main instructor said that after the class I didn't talk to him and complain about the injury. First of all, I did not feel/notice the injury until the next day. This happens with a lot of muscular injuries, including dislocated jaws (a friend of mine once said that he got his jaw dislocated in training, but he didn't feel it till the next morning) and even whiplash. Secondly, if he was offering traditional Chinese massage/herbal medicines (and I admit, this is merely speculation), then what if I'm the kind of person who doesn't want to use non prescription medicine? Does he know what herbs to combine with any other medication I'm taking (I'm asthmatic, so I take salbutomol and beclomethasone on a daily basis)? What if I'm allergic to something? He also said that because I didn't report the injury to him on the same night, that any claim I make is really just my word against his. He says that I could have bruised by muscles (and I suppose my friend could have strained his ligaments simultaneously) sometime after the class. Which is technically possible, but I don't see why he's trying to dodge the issue. When he fills in his insurance details, he has to let his agent know if anyone from his class has been injured or not. Which HAS happened.

At the end of the rather extensive discussion, they refused to concede... rather, they just said, "we'll take note of what you've said," and while I'd like to believe that they will try to learn from this and prevent the risk of future injury to students, I somehow left with the impression that they really meant, "we'll just totally disregard what you."

Anyway, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they make any improvements in future classes to improve safety standards. I'd really rather NOT escalate this case -- I'm the kind of guy who'd rather NOT get people into trouble if I can, but if they continue to endanger student welfare, then I'm really morally obliged to do something. Again, let's hope that they do pull up their socks, then everyone will be happy. :)

[This message was edited by Goktimus Prime on 01-26-01 at 05:50 AM.]

[qeySuS]

Well i only made it halfway through your second post (you write so **** much dude :P) MY main concern was basicly this, Ok they say "you went into this on your own risk, and it will strengthen you so you cannot complain when it hurts you".

I beleave i'm being truthful when i say that this will in no way help you getting stronger hands. And placing a novice with a person that's new in class sounds stupid. Even tho you say you have some MA experience, that could mean anything. Lot of ppl overestimate their skills perhaps a few months of training and they come ****y into a new school bragging about their MA experience, and just as you said the teacher should evaluate who's who, and who can handle what practice.

But back to the training thingie :) By all i have learned/heard any conditioning of your body (iron skills i guess their called) including the forearm are NOT done by going full force, getting an injury, waiting for that to heal and then do it all over again. You should gradually apply force and go higher if you feel your upto it. This is not a process of being injured so many times that you dont care anymore, this is a process of gradually making the body numb/strong to hits. This is done by light hitting first and escelating into higher force later i beleave.

Free thinkers are dangerous.

I agree,

It defeats the purpose of learning an art of fighting when you're going to be injured for the rest of the week.

Goktimus is correct about the "duty of care" but one must bear in mind that some classes are conducted by instructors who have too much testosterone and too little brain.

Then there are classes that attract a certain crowd who feel that they have to endure pain to learn how to fight. I guess it's like the S&M equivalent in the context of sex.

The good thing of being in a relatively open society there is something for everyone. Just don't be afraid to say NO to the training if you feel that it is not suitable personally.

Ego Maximize!

[lungyuil]

I agree with Qeysus, i had to stop halfway to take a breathe. For a person with sore arms you sure can write.

Did they offer you Dit Da Joa before and after practicing the arm knocking because we never practice conditioning without the use of Dit Da Jow. You will always get bruises but that will at least reduce the bruising.

It seems their egos are only school bound, they pick on new comers to prove they are good.

When new students start training at our school, we ensure they use Dit Da and are conditioned gradually because it proves no point to not be able to cintinue training. :)

[Goktimus Prime]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did they offer you Dit Da Joa before and after practicing the arm knocking because we never practice conditioning without the use of Dit Da Jow. [/quote]

Huh? What's that called in standard Chinese (Mandarin) or Japanese? Or better yet, just explain what it is in English.

When I usually do Pigua conditioning, we usually rub/roll each others arms to massage them. At that school, one guy offered a kind of massage by grinding his forearm against mine. It hurt like hell!!

Anyway, it should never have come to that in the first place.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You will always get bruises[/quote]

Not with proper training. If you're always getting bruised in training, then something is wrong.

Anyway, I've heard news that this school has changed its ways and they've become more cautious and responsible about safety, which is good to hear.

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[lungyuil]

Dit Da is medicine used for conditioning among other things (different types). Helps the Chi & bones.

I have never seen anyone not get bruised while practicing conditioning drills.
What do you consider proper training, do you expect them to go extemely soft. No-one wil do that.
If you condition with a harder person, you will get bruised or sore no matter what.

Lungyuil,

I very much doubt that a rub on medicine can stengthen the bone. The lotion simply cannot penetrate that far. I wounld seriously question the legitimacy of any school that puts forward this claim.

Sure if you want to make your bones stonger do take the occasional calcium tablet or if you prefer a more "natural" alternative, milk is good and so are cheeses. The Brie variety is rather delicious.

But seriously, you shouldn't get bruises all the time. If you do, it is quite possible that the training is unsafe.

Ego Maximize!

[prana]

I have been using Tit-da-Jao and has been a tradition in my training for centuries. So have many millions of ancient monks since the days of Gautama. Even the making of the Jao is almost a lost art ! If you do not understand the strength of the Jao, you are not in a position to understand the bone hardening techniques of Kung Fu !

By the way, there are primarily two schools of Shao Lin, one appearing in Northern China (Northern style) and the other in Fu-Jien
(Southern Style). The school was burnt down due to their strength and integrity to uphold stance against the Communist governments requests... and have subsequently been re-erected. The grand masters of this school of Martial Arts have gathered from all over the world to re-kindle the lost arts that have fruited from the temple.

Through my years of training and having started training at 6 years of age, I have never had a single day without bruises.

I have had better days than to come to a site like this to find ignorance to the entier tradition of martial arts. The monks of Shao-Lin did not become the legendary beings that they were by whinning about the pain of training.

Each and every monk wakes up early hours of dawn and meditate under the close guidance of their Lord Buddha and Sifu. They are utterly abused beyond our imagination and without the freedom to even know the benefits they are to be empowered, the secrets and skiils they were to be blessed with. Training would be as simple as sweeping the temple floors, eating next to no food and bitten with sticks and fist to reveal the red energies that abide in your Dan-Tien.

Pain is but a state of mind unless you are injured but you are not (unless you type with your toes).

Either you train or you don't. It seems to me that most of you have no knowledge of the true traditions of Martial Arts. I can't believe someone who calls themselves Martial Artist are so ignorant to the true risings of the art itself.

[joedoe]

I would have to say your reply is a bit harsh - we aren't Shaolin monks and can't be expected to train like them.

However, I agree in principle with what you say. If you are going to train in a traditional martial art, you should expect injuries. I have trained for many years and I rarely come away from a training session without bruises. Quite often, it is the new students who cause the bruises too!

I disagree that arm knocking is useless. We practice a form of arm knocking and I notice people getting harder arms as they progress in skill. Dit da does work - whether it gets into the bone or not is irrelevant. It helps to reduce injury and as a result allows you to train more.

With respect to the original post though, an instructor can only ask you to perform an exercise. If you are hurt or choose not to carry out the exercise, you can opt out. You are a human being with free will. No one can FORCE you to do anything.

And besides, there are two people involved with arm knocking. If you don't want to hit hard, you don't have to. Even if they hit hard you aren't forced to. And if you don't like the training then leave the class.

The Shoalin monks do train hard, and they are full time monks i.e. they don't have other jobs to go to. But they also have to get up and train the next day and carry out chores. And yes, they are beaten if they fail to do so. I know. I have been to Shaolin and trained with the monks for a short time.

As far as your examples go, they are not quite valid. If you go to a boxing school, you get hit. If you play football, you get hit. No difference.

And BTW, I do not believe there is any requirement for a instructor to be qualified by the AIS. Kung fu is not a sport. It is also not a requirement of the insurance companies for instructors to be AIS qualified. In fact, most instructors aren't.

All I can say is, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[Fish of Fury]

goktimus, if you don't know what Dit Da is, and you don't know the history of kung fu (eg. that there is a shaolin temple in fujian province...did it never occur to you that southern shaolin may have come from the south?) what makes you think you're in any way fit to walk in off the street and judge the training methods of a kung fu style?
people like yourself with a victim mentality, who want to talk about the "legality" of a training technique, take no responsibility for their own actions and should consider a more gentle hobby.
couldn't you determine for yourself to what intensity you wish to participate in a basic drill? if the instructor asked you to jump off a cliff would you do it?
from what you have described it sounds as though you weren't attacked or bullied but just failed to cope with a basic exercise.
also, the rules of this forum ask that you do not slander an instructor or school.
kung fu is about many things, amongst them is building character.
it sounds as if you could certainly use one, but please don't come to my school.

Prana:

To put it quick clearly, the reason why the monks underwent such harsh training in the old days is because they were IGNORANT of modern scientific methods available today. But you do so (train like the ancient monks) out of STUPIDITY!

Fish of Death:

Like i said earlier, there are too many "masters" out there with much testorone and little brain. Then there are the insane ones who may have a diminished sense of responsibility.

Goktimus may have came across one of those psycho masters and his school of pain. I am very sorry for you that you have decided to shoot the messanger.

Ego Maximize!

[prana]

I am not here to defend the monks and my ancestors. In fact I know their responses to your post will be one of compassion towards your lacking in the cores. Martial Arts arised from the wisdom of Lord Buddha, who saw the conditions of monks sitting in meditation. He subsequently created the art to increase the physical health of these monks, who lived on very poor diets and lack of nutrition.

For one who supposedly trains in this art, you sure have no respect for the art itself. Monks are the fathers and Inventors of martial arts. I think you have just offended the entire Martial Artists community with your dis-obedience.

And from me personally, having studied the fundamentals of sports training college levels, some and in fact most exercises are contra-indicated. However, chinese acrobats, martials artists and monks have brought the level of physical power beyond the capabilities of modern science. Perhaps it is modern science that lacks the understanding of human energy. Gautama (Lord Buddha) discovered the inner energies panna,and have passed on these traditions to the rest of the world. Only now have modern science found the capability of discovering these amazing energies that I see get posted simply as Qi.

Can modern science explain the ability to withstand the slice of a sword to bare skin, or the ability to blast holes through brick with bare fingers ? These are the essences of Qi.

I am a professional sportsman (NOT just in martial arts) and most of my exercises are considered contra-indicated. If you did your research, you will understand the principle of eccentric training and shock. And yet these techniques supposedly invented by the Germans have been around for centuries in our traditions.

So to you Ego Maximizer, it seems your traditions are really about 2 days old. I am being respectful to you having to lower myself to even post this message to you, and more, by teaching you these very core knowledge about martial arts. I hope you understand the essences of martial arts and training techniques before you start criticising the monks.

I am disppointed that this modern day of martial arts have been dishonoured by students such as those I see here. Back in the days where we trained, students are monitored closely, not only for physical ability but for mental intelligence and discipline before being enlightened to the secret techniques. But it seems you are certainly not worthy of it. Or perhaps I should rejoice, for the true art of martial arts have not been contaminated by your lack on the latter department. Though without Qi-Gong, I truly wonder about your former also...

U can criticise me all you want but DO NOT CRITICISE the founders of the very art. You have shown enough disrespect to our traditions with your comment. I suggest you return to your racquet and ball games and leave the art alone...

[joedoe]

Ego, you have an ego to match your name. You presume to know that modern methods are better, yet you participate in a forum related to ancient arts. I'm not saying that modern methods aren't beneficial to the martial arts, but neither can you discard the ancient ones. Just because they don't fit your paradigm of what is scientific doesn't mean that they haven't been refined.

So, to call the Shaolin monks ignorant for their training methods is not only disrespectful but showing of your own ignorance and closed-mindedness. How can you say that something that has been refined over hundreds of years is showing ignorance, while methods that are still being studied and formulated you consider to be better?

And I wouldn't go jumping into calling a master a psycho or stupid if you haven't met them and especially if you haven't heard any other side of a story.

I assume you are a martial artist also. So I also assume that you should understand that there is more than one way to do something. Maybe you should think twice about calling someone's training methods ignorant.

[Goktimus Prime]

I don't know enough about Tit-da-jao to comment on it. So I won't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Through my years of training and having started training at 6 years of age, I have never had a single day without bruises.
[/quote]

This reminds me of those psycho instructors with brutal schools that Ego Maximus was talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have had better days than to come to a site like this to find ignorance to the entier tradition of martial arts. The monks of Shao-Lin did not become the legendary beings that they were by whinning about the pain of training.

Each and every monk wakes up early hours of dawn and meditate under the close guidance of their Lord Buddha and Sifu. They are utterly abused beyond our imagination and without the freedom to even know the benefits they are to be empowered, the secrets and skiils they were to be blessed with. Training would be as simple as sweeping the temple floors, eating next to no food and bitten with sticks and fist to reveal the red energies that abide in your Dan-Tien.[/quote]

That's rather embellishing the facts with legends, don't you think? Yes, shaolin monks did train excessively hard, but considering this:

1. They didn't have lives outside of their temple. They devoted their entire lives to meditation, praying and their training. Unlike them, other people have to go to work or school the next day. I'm just lucky that I was injured during holidays, because there would've been NO way I could've written down lecture notes with the condition of my arms.

2. People didn't care about personal welfare back then. We know better now.

3. The monks also took time to heal themselves afterwards. They applied medicines, massages etc. Not many martial arts instructors are qualified to prescribe medicine. If he gave me some holistic medicine that gave me an allergic reaction or something, I could sue.

4. Let's face it, they lived in less civilised times. Martial arts training was more intense because villages/towns/clans were warring with each other a lot. We don't have that nowadays -- Kung Fu is something we now learn for self defense. And even at that, you cannot defend yourself as well as you normally can if your arms are bruised. Also, back then, there was no such thing as moral ethics or the Universal Declaration of Basic Human Rights.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pain is but a state of mind unless you are injured but you are not (unless you type with your toes).[/quote]

That shows how ignorant you are of the human nervous system. How about I kick you in the testicles or hit you on the head with a hammer ten times, and you tell me that the pain is all just a state of mind?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Either you train or you don't. It seems to me that most of you have no knowledge of the true traditions of Martial Arts. I can't believe someone who calls themselves Martial Artist are so ignorant to the true risings of the art itself.[/quote]

I'm aware of the risings, but I don't see what
relevance that plays in today's modern society.

Sorry, I live in the 21st century, not the 12th.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you are going to train in a traditional martial art, you should expect injuries.[/quote]

Why? Why should ANYONE expect to be injured from doing training?

What right does someone have to injure me for the sake of training? How can you morally justify this?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have trained for many years and I rarely come away from a training session without bruises. Quite often, it is the new students who cause the bruises too![/quote]

And you're proud of this?! If people are being regularly injured in a class, then there's something WRONG.

Athletes do not injure themselves constantly during training. You don't see rugby players running onto a field covered with bruises from the day before's training.

It's is NOT necessary to beat the snot out of someone to teach them how to fight!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I disagree that arm knocking is useless. We practice a form of arm knocking and I notice people getting harder arms as they progress in skill.[/quote]

You obviously haven't read my message very carefully. I never said that arm knocking was useless. Go read my message again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>With respect to the original post though, an instructor can only ask you to perform an exercise. If you are hurt or choose not to carry out the exercise, you can opt out. You are a human being with free will. No one can FORCE you to do anything.

And besides, there are two people involved with arm knocking. If you don't want to hit hard, you don't have to. Even if they hit hard you aren't forced to. And if you don't like the training then leave the class.[/quote]

Are you reading ALL of my messages?? Read all of it.

As I said, the welfare/safety of a student is legally the responsibility of the teacher. You can argue about ancient Chinese traditions all you like, but at the end of the day, under current Australian law, it doesn't hold.

It is what is called DUTY OF CARE - which is exactly that -- all teachers have a legal responsibility to take care of their students and to prevent injury. Of course injuries are inevitable with martial arts, but that does NOT excuse a teacher from this law. If an injury occurs despite proper precaution, then the teacher won't be found liable. However, allowing students to participate in an activity that can very well harm them, is negligent.

This is why a science teacher ALWAYS describes and demonstrates an experiment first -- even gets you to read and write down what you're going to do -- before you start an experiment. This is also why the teacher's desk has an emergency main switch to all gas, water and electricity in the room, so s/he can shut everything down in case of an emergency - and usually, the gas and electricity is never turned on outside of the duration of an experiment.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Shoalin monks do train hard, and they are full time monks i.e. they don't have other jobs to go to. But they also have to get up and train the next day and carry out chores. And yes, they are beaten if they fail to do so. I know. I have been to Shaolin and trained with the monks for a short time.[/quote]

And this is morally justifiable because why??
No offence, but the People's Republic of China isn't exactly reknowned for respecting human rights.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As far as your examples go, they are not quite valid. If you go to a boxing school, you get hit. If you play football, you get hit. No difference.[/quote]

That's rubbish. Boxing schools do NOT beat up their students during training. They hit bags or use gloves, mouthguards and helmets during training. Even then, boxing is a very controversial sport amongst the medical community -- many doctors argue that it should be banned.

As for footy, they do take precautions. They also build their endurance up gradually. When you learn to play rugby, first thing you do is tackle against a sponge. Then you tackle against a padded person. Then you tackle a heavy bag. They do NOT get a first time rugby player to run out on the field and tackle someone.

Professional rugby players have spent years of gradual conditioning and training to build their endurance.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And BTW, I do not believe there is any requirement for a instructor to be qualified by the AIS. Kung fu is not a sport. It is also not a requirement of the insurance companies for instructors to be AIS qualified. In fact, most instructors aren't.[/quote]

Actually, you are right about that. I stand corrected.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>goktimus, if you don't know what Dit Da is, and you don't know the history of kung fu (eg. that there is a shaolin temple in fujian province...did it never occur to you that southern shaolin may have come from the south?) [/quote]

Really? Show me. Point it out to me on a map and show me some photos of this place.
If it does exist, then why is it called Shaolin temple, instead of Fujian? I always thought that there was only one Shaolin temple - in Shaolin.

But if you can prove otherwise, I welcome your evidence with open arms.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>what makes you think you're in any way fit to walk in off the street and judge the training methods of a kung fu style?[/quote]

1. I've also been training in Kung Fu for quite some time -- although most of it has been Northern Kung Fu. And our school also does body hardening conditioning exercises -- the difference is that it's GRADUAL. Like I said in my message (I'm getting a feeling that you guys haven't bothered to read it properly), it's NOT arm-knocking that I'm criticising, it's the way it was employed in that school (and to their credit, they no longer train like that anymore).

2. I'm a student teacher. The fundamental principles of teaching are the same across all subjects - be it martial arts, languages, maths, science, geography etc., because it's all about passing information from one person to another.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>people like yourself with a victim mentality, who want to talk about the "legality" of a training technique, take no responsibility for their own actions and should consider a more gentle hobby.[/quote]

Rubbish.

The welfare of a student is the responsibility of the teacher. There is no way around that, because it is the law.

These are usually words people use to scare others into not filing a complaint.

NOBODY has the right to cause harm to you. It is morally/ethically abhorrent and illegal too. If you do inflict harm onto someone, there needs to be an ethically (and ultimately legally) justifiable reason, such as self defense (ie: you needed to inflict harm onto that person in order to protect yourself - and even then, by law, you must use lesser or equal force as your assailant).

Negligence is when you can show that the teacher did not take necessary precautions to ensure that you would not be injured.

For example, I once taught a year nine class to make Japanese food. This involved using knives to cut meat and vegetables. I ensured that ALL students with knives were to use the desks immediately surrounding the teacher's table, so that they would be in my immediate line of site. In fact, during this lesson, ALL the students were at the front of the classroom. And of course, I had a second teacher in the room as well.

I gave them all clear instructions on how to use the knives, gave demonstrations on how to safely use and pass and store knives.

Now, if a student then cut themselves (fortunately, nobody did), then *I* would not be responsible, because I took proper precautions with warnings, demonstrations and keeping them in view. However, the student is still entitled to seek compensation from the school, because it is the school's responsibility to maintain that all students are safe while they are at school. This is why truancy is illegal - not just because they're skipping class, but because the school cannot supervise the child while s/he is outside supervised school grounds (which is also why schools have "out of bounds" areas). But if a student is injured while at school, s/he can sue the school or the department.

When I was in junior high school, a friend of mine was beat up by a school bully, causing him leg injuries. His parents filed a suit against the school and won, because despite the fact that the bully had beaten him up without the school's approval, the law states that it is still the school's responsibility to maintain student safety while they are there.

The same applies for martial arts schools. The school is responsible for the welfare of students while they are there.

Now, unless an instructor is grossly negligent, s/he should have nothing to worry about, because their insurance will cover it.

If your instructor takes the necessary precautions to prevent injury, and you get injured, you CAN take legal action against that school/instructor. But if it can be proven that the teacher was NOT negligent, that is, that s/he had taken precautions to prevent you from being injured (within reason), then all s/he has to do is escalate the complaint on to his/her insurance company which will cover the costs of recuperation etc.

If you're a martial arts instructor and a student comes to complain about an injury, unless you've been careless/negligent in your teaching, then you have NOTHING to fear, because your insurance will cover it.

So really, good martial arts teachers have nothing to fear.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>couldn't you determine for yourself to what intensity you wish to participate in a basic drill?[/quote]

A teacher cannot presume that a student knows any better. After all, they ARE the student, who has come to LEARN better.

You can't say, "oh, you should've known," because of COURSE they don't know. That's WHY they've come to your school -- to LEARN!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>from what you have described it sounds as though you weren't attacked or bullied but just failed to cope with a basic exercise.[/quote]

I never said I was attacked or bullied. Again, read properly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>also, the rules of this forum ask that you do not slander an instructor or school.[/quote]

I'm criticising a teaching technique. Which this instructor and school (neither of which I've named) has since modified to meet legal safety standards.

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[lungyuil]

prana, abandit,FOD,
don't waste your time or energy these guys are too busy quoting the law to understand traditional training.

In the old days Dit Da was used by teachers to heal students injuries during training.

Ego, the monks weren't ignorant in the old days, they were very intelligent regarding martial arts. We still train in the old ways, we are still amazed that they could understand the human body,chi flow and predict times for energy flow with the little knowledge they had.

You guys can only preach the law. If you can't handle it just don't do it. Simple as that. Don't come hear preaching that the law states this & that.

Why do you think i couldn't be bothered replying to stupid questions? :D

Time to get more bruises!! :)

[joedoe]

Actually, I don't think prana was embellishing the facts about Shaolin monks. My Sifu has related stories similar to what prana has described, and he studied at Shaolin as a lay student for years.

And a lot of Shaolin monks did learn to control pain to the point where you could hit them in the testicles or in the head with a hammer and not be bothered by it.

In my opinion, while the martial arts have roots in ancient times, they still hold much relevance to us today. As the name suggests, martial arts are a form of art, and in my opinion are timeless. The teachings of traditional martial arts will be just as relevant in 50 years time as they were 600 years ago.

I am not proud of the fact that I come away from my training with bruises, but what I am saying is that you can get bruises from any physical endeavour. I play volleyball and come away with bruises - and that is a non-contact sport.

And I have also played rugby - just because you don't see the injuries doesn't mean they aren't there. And yes, you do get sent out on the field in your first game and are expected to tackle a person, and no I didn't start tackling a sponge.

I read all of your messages and I understand your point about duty of care, but as I said you cannot be FORCED to do something. I don't know anything about the school you are describing but I doubt they would have prevented you from leaving the kwoon.

Boxing schools do beat up students during training - that is called sparring. I don't remember you saying you were beaten up. I thought you said you received injuries during arm knocking. However the point is, that if you participate in a contact activity, you are bound to experience contact. I'm not saying that you should get beaten up, but some contact is expected.

And Fish of Death is right - there are several Shaolin temples. Go read your Chinese history. There is no such place as Shaolin other than the temples. Shaolin literally means 'little forest' and was named so because of the small forest that the Hunan temple was built close to. But like many religious orders, they had more than one centre, at least two of which were in the south.

I guess the main thing though is that the school you mentioned (and you actually did kind of name them ;-)) has altered its policy to try and ensure this doesn't happen again.

ABandit:
Yes of course I'm right! I did mention "might have met a psycho instructor" as I know that I have not met him or her in person or heard the other side of the story. However, what I'm getting at is A WORD OF CAUTION that there are good instructors and there are also shoddy operators out there. The point is, there are many schools and many more people claiming to be this or that. There really isn't any official standard of quality control. Just be careful and don't be afraid to question.

Goktimus is right - the point is he is able to relate it back to Australian Law as a benchmark for a standard of practice - that's fine even by me. I think you seem to take a moderate view which I'm pleased.

But I pity people like Para who is caught up in this fantasy KF land of fantastic beings from Shaw Brothers production. These are the people who can be conned to jump of cliffs by any old man claiming to be from Shaolin chanting ahhh Buddah be praised. By the way Parra, Dit Dar causes hair loss - ever seen a Shaolin monk with a full head of hair?

Lungyuil: You misunderstand my point. The point is IGNORANCE does NOT mean UNINTELLIGENT. You could be a genius but if you're not exposed to facts XYZ then you'll be ignorant of facts XYZ. But if you're aware of the facts and blatently disregards it then you're STUPID! People in the past are no less intelligent than the people today - that's a scientific fact! The difference is the larger pool of knowledge we have today. I hope I've cleared up your confusion!

Ego Maximize!

[joedoe]

Ego,

Point taken about POSSIBLE psycho instructors. Your original posting didn't sound that way that's all. I guess if you put it that way, there are all sorts of students out there too - even psycho ones 8^).

I disagree about the old Shaolin monks being ignorant. Just because they didn't have certain knowledge available to them doesn't make them ignorant. If people choose to follow traditions it also doesn't make them stupid. It may seem strange, but it is unfair to call them stupid.

Also, there is the whole difference in paradigms. Chinese thought on various things is very different than Western thought. What the Chinese consider to be fact, many Westerners would consider to be wrong and vice versa. Does this make everyone ignorant?

[Fish of Fury]

goktimus
you make the point that we all have jobs to go to, and then you expect us to read ALL of your messages? nobody has that much time.I hope you don't talk this much in class!

but seriously...
i don't know anything about the class you went to, but i think if a school wants to train in a traditional fashion it's actually quite irresponsible to go waving the law around trying to stop them. if you don't like it , simply train somewhere else!
as for the law,i agree with lungyuil.
the law is imperfect, and is put in place as a last resort when something goes wrong ( in my opinion).you shouldn't view it as the ultimate truth, or a prescription for daily living.it's my opinion that this is a bad attitude to have.

and before you quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights again...we are talking about a bruise here aren't we? in my school we also expect some degree of pain and bruising ( although we do improve gradually as you suggest, nevertheless...you can't improve without some bruising being inevitable) and if that's not your view of appropriate training, SIMPLY TRAIN SOMEWHERE ELSE.use some common sense instead of invoking your rights and ignoring the responsibilities that come with them (such as respecting the rights of others)

as for kungfu history, i believe ABandit may have helped enlighten you.the most famous of the shaolin temples was at mount Songshan in henan province, but there was also at least one well known temple in fujian province.

it genuinely concerns me that attitudes like yours will make real kung fu less and less accessable and deprive it of its spirit.
i don't want to be left with nothing to do in my spare time but study the finer points of law.

as i said before goktimus, i hope you don't come to my class.

Goktimus Prime:

Firstly allow me to summarise: -

1) You attended a kung fu class.
2) Willing participated in the class's activities.
3) Allegedly sustained an injury as a result of the said activities in the said class, in spite of your alleged martial arts experience.
4) Expressed your ill feeling towards the said class and their techniques via means of this forum.

Whilst I don’t disagree with you that the said class’s techniques are to extreme or to rough for you, I certainly don’t see how you are justified in saying that the said class’s techniques are wrong or inappropriate because they are too extreme for you.

My point is based upon the assumption that you were not the only person attending the said class and that there was a number of other students attending the said school willingly.

Further more, regardless of your alleged martial arts experience you are in no position to theorise the inappropriateness of another schools activities or techniques and you are certainly in no position to judge another schools activities and techniques regardless of the schools origins and history.

You attended a martial arts school, you got hurt, you whinged about it and made some sort of poorly founded point, now how about just moving and getting over it.

[lungyuil]

Ego,
so are you saying we should try to use different methods to strenghten our bones & bodies?
Maybe we just like to endure & inflict PAIN :D

Ok guys start popping those pills.

In all the time i have been on the forum there has never been a complaint about the hardness of training or injuries. Because the people enjoy it. Maybe you should start a union & insurance company sueing all kung fu schools.

Keep practicing your chi kung & popping those calcium pills :)

Peace :cool:

You first ABandit:
Please be specific - ignorant of what??? Otherwise you're statement makes no sense! I said ignorant of modern science. There is no way Shaolin Monks can understand human physiology the way we do. They just don't have the equipment. That is not to say they are ignorant of martial arts. Quite the opposite if they had trained intensively. You'll be a fool to dispute the fact that they would be better martial artist if they had our scientific understanding that we have today. You'll be a greater fool to challenge my ego.

You next Lungyuil:
To answer your question: I don't know how you train but ask yourself this: Is it fighting skill that you're trying to accomplish or alternatively, is it the love of pain?

If it the alternative, I'm sure you'll find the a bondage dungeon to satisfy your kinky desires.

That will be all for now. You lot have taught me how to be a little more patience and I've taught you how to be a little wiser.

Ego Maximize!

[lungyuil]

Ego,
at least you finally learnt something, i thought all this effort was a waste of time. Are you a small boy who used to get picked on at school? Just a question.

I see you practice chi kung only. i heard that pot enhances the chi, can you tell me please.

To answer your question, i just love to train. it just seems that you should be knitting jumpers, just be careful you don't stab yourself. You might have another thread on the dangers of knitting.

Lungyuil: "Are you a small boy who used to get picked on at school?"

Ego Maximus: "No. My school understood the DUTY OF CARE! But thanks for your concern in any case. Your concenr for children may make you a good child minder and that may be beneficial to your local community."

Lungyuil: "i heard that pot enhances the chi, can you tell me please."

Ego Maximus: "I dunno. Perhaps you could try and find out. Science is still studying the physiological effects of Pot."

Lungyuil:" it just seems that you should be knitting jumpers, just be careful you don't stab yourself."

Ego Maximus:" I'm unsure how you could logically come to this conclusion (that I should be knitting jumpers). One thing is know though - pot causes hallucinations."

Lungyuil: "You might have another thread on the dangers of knitting."

Ego Maximus: "Yes I may, but this forum won't be appropriate to elaborate on the subject of knitting. Thanks for the interview!"

Ego Maximize!

[Lucky Red]

i cannot brag of training for a very long time
Martial art or know Much about training
but i do know that if youre going to Fight
to defend yourself you MUST!! know Pain from before i have seen poeple loose fights because they cannot take pain

to the person that think that you dont need
Brusies have you ever fought someone ?


the Hardest Fight is the the one With yourself

[Boris]

Ego Maximum ***** and Goktimus God Awfully ugly Primate,
Where do you guys train? In a padded room? Last time I checked only crazy people were in people like that. I practice Wing Chun and we get bruises. I seen some guy get a finger in the eye from Chi Sao and that wasn't even that hard a drill.

So I don't know what you guys do. Nine Step Wanking or something like that? Oh, so sad got bruised....get over it...go and dress up in a drag and attend the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras...they need people like you

If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything

[joedoe]

Ego,

You really are a w@nker aren't you? You presume that western scientific method is the be all and end all. If you read my reply closely you will notice the bit about different thought paradigms. Or did you go to Goktimus' school of selective reading?

Just because the Shaolin monks did not have modern science available to it doesn't mean that their understanding of the human body was any more or less accurate than that of modern medical science. It was just a different way of looking at it.

If modern science would have made them better martial artists, then why is it that modern science is still trying to figure out how the ancient methods worked? Why would they bother if they didn't think it was worth finding out about?

[Muhammad]

I think we are Being too harsh on Goktimus and Ego, we gotta respect and acknowledge their weakness. I think that any instructor should have realised that Goktimus needed special consideration when he said "Oww, this is painful, stop it!" cause no normal man cries out like that. As we have disable people in our society we have Goktimus in the martial arts world, as we have special services for the disable, we should have special services for Goktimus. We should all acknowledge his weakness as he has done and try to help him compensate for it. This again should have been picked up by readers as he says he is bruised and injured badly in the arm he is still able to write such a long post, showing that he has a very low pain tresh hold. So i say guys enough pickin on weaker people and just say "It's allright to be different goktimus and we accept your weakness" and help him instaed of destroying him

U will always be welcomed to train with me and i will always go soft u as i know u are special :)

There is only one god and Muhammad is his prophet

[Kenji]

That is the funniest post I've ever read for a while! Classic.


Fist of Death,

Which school do you train in?

[Lo Han #1]

for starters Boris i like your style, but you can't blame people like ego and goktimus, some people are just born hopeless, cause if goktimus couldn't handle an exercise like knock arms there's something rong there, and get this everyone he (goktimus) is an instructor in his school haha i mean what a disgrace, his master must realy be ashamed and can you blame him, i know i can't. and as for you pns minimus or eggy maximus or what ever you call your self if you would have reaserched it you would find that it took western medicine 600 years to improve on the chinese version of the human anatomy they realy were dumbfounded at how "suffisticated" it was but i geuss your ego is to big for you to research something like that and yes i am a G.P and yes for every body who is wondering about dit dao yes it does improve bone density anybody who thinks it can't penetrate to the bone is foolish cause it does.

[Shaolin Temple]

What kind of northern praying mantis are you practicing? Are you on your knees in church praying or what?

In China and most countries that I know about, the style of northern praying mantis involves you standing in your horse-stance and a long wooden pole is used to break over your head, arms and legs. This is a conditioning technique that is from Shaolin temple...afterall, praying mantis is from Shaolin.

What kung fu do you do? Go to the Shaolin website and there's photos, evidence and lots of documentary proof of both Northern and Southern Shaolin. Here's something to improve your so-called wit is educated insolence (both of which I only see ignorance and lack of education...I feel sorry for your students in school...they are learning from a student teacher who does not even know the facts...oh dear...Amitabha...may Buddha enlighten you). There are two Southern Saolin temples both of which are documented to be established at the same time for when the north was being destroyed by the Manchurians, several monks fled to the South for the Hans were a stronger faction there compared to the north where Manchurian control was much more eminent there.

When the monks fled the north, some went to Fujian and some to Chengchou. So there...here's the evidence you seek.

Buddhism in here is about education not religion...if I was your teacher, I'll probably punish you but hang on...Muhammed you are right...it is okay to be different. Perhaps even Praying Mantis is too hard for you...you might get maiden's knees or should I be more scientific...Infrapatellar bursitis.

Ego...all I can say about you is...you schmuck!!! As a Doctor and medical scientist all I can say about you is even to this very day, modern science is now going backwards to using herbs and traditional techniques for modern science is very limited...it is only 200 years old compared to traditional Chinese medicine which is dated up to 5000 years old.

Here's an example...there's no western treatment for hepatitis except for immunoglobulin treatment and also cerebrovascular accidents (stroke...just to make it more simple for you...I hope I am not being to detailed for you...), there are lots of documented proof in the British Medical and American Medical journal that have shown that acupuncture is the "most proven effective therapy" for these two conditions.

Chinese herbal medicine as discussed here...dit da jow has always been a hush hush in the Israel and American special forces. they are called bone cement. In combat, if someone sprained their ankle, fractured their bones, you only need to apply some on their skin and it will be absorbed through for it is an ointment...fractures usually require 6 weeks to heal...bone cement shortens it to only 7-10 days...check it out yourself. It is used in modern day othopaedics...get you facts right.

here's the site...
http://www.shaolin.nl/

I agree with someone above's comment...
if you can't stand the heat...stay out of the kitchen.

Muhammed, perhaps we should start a day care centre for those two "special students...oh shucks...ga ga goo goo!!!"


Give it a rest...I cannot believe a person with sore hands can type so much. It takes more effort to type than to write...amazing...you might get RSI soon if you are not careful goktimus. Maybe then you can also whinge to the computer companies as well.

Amitabha

[This message was edited by Shaolin Temple on 02-11-01 at 05:29 PM.]

Boris the Blade: You're right. You don't know what I do. But are you refering to my KF practice or sexual orientation?

ABandit: Science does not make any geographic distinction. The laws of physics work the same way regardless of whether you're on Earth, the moon or Mars. Since you've said (in your earlier post) that Shaolin monks feel no pain when you hit their testicles - then prove me wrong by showing me that science is NOT uniform. Hit your own testicles 1,000 times and if 90% of the time it hurts, I will stand corrected on this occasion. A small price to pay for the advancement of science and a good chance to bruise my ego - don't you think?

Shaolin Temple: As a Dr. and medical scientist, what exactly do you research in? What papers have you published?

You said: "Here's an example...there's no western treatment for hepatitis except for immunoglobulin treatment and also cerebrovascular accidents (stroke...just to make it more simple for you...I hope I am not being to detailed for you...), there are lots of documented proof in the British Medical and American Medical journal that have shown that acupuncture is the "most proven effective therapy" for these two conditions"

Tell me the reference of the articles you're refering to. How wide is the use of acupuncture to stop the Hep virus - please elaborate!

You said: "As a Doctor and medical scientist all I can say about you is even to this very day, modern science is now going backwards to using herbs and traditional techniques for modern science is very limited..."

Science looks for active ingredients in all sorts of things to stop diseases. It doesn't make a distinction as to whether the substance has been used by Chinese or the Great Ardvark of the Amazon basin. In any case, why do you assume that what science is doing is going backwards.

You said: "it is only 200 years old compared to traditional Chinese medicine which is dated up to 5000 years old."

Sceince advances at an exponential rate. The discoveries and the increase in understanding over the last 100 years is unparallelled to the past. Surely as a scientist you know that! For the treatment of your patients, do you refer to the latest medical text or the writing of the ****her of Modern Medicine: Hippocrates? TELL ME!!!

Lo Han #1: As GP you should know that you need Calcium to strengthen bones. Calcium is ingested through substances like milk and cheese. And we do not absorb calcium through our skin!!!!!

Tell me Lo Han #1, what do you do with your cheese spreads?

Ego Maximize!

[Fish of Fury]

ego

calcium will only help strengthen bones if you are deficient in it.i believe from personal experience that dit da jow does help strengthen bones.please,don't assume you know everything.

read "the merck manual" (a standard physicians reference) and you'll see that there is virtually no treatment for viral hepatitis.
on the other hand, do a search for silybum marianum (a herb) in the BMJ (british medical journal...it's online) and you'll find that herb has amazing actions on the liver, incl. raising it's ability to detoxify, protecting liver cells, and stimulating liver cell regrowth while not stimulating malignant cell replication.( i admit you may not necessarily always use silybum for hepatitis, but it can do things in the human liver no drug can)

also, i think you'll find that modern physicists are questioning some of the existing laws of physics, so you may find yourself left behind (i'm assuming...which i shouldn't do...that you're not a cutting edge physicist) :)

[joedoe]

Ego,

I have come to the conclusion that I am wasting my time and energy trying to make a blind man see, especially when he won't open his eyes. I have decided instead, that maybe I should try to see things from your perspective. I would like to be more like you so I can understand you better.

So, my question is this: Did you do a Bachelor of Stupidity with a major in Closed Mindedness? Or was it a Masters in Verbal Masturbation? If so, is this a course offered only in American institutions? It must be a high-entry level course because I can't find a similar course in IQ-deprived Australia. The only thing that even comes remotely close is what we call a sheltered workshop. Can I do the course by correspondence?

Please help me to be more like you.

Fish of Death

One day, I'm sure there will be nano-machines that will give your bones incredible strength. Maybe they can be applied on through a rub on lotion like your Dit Dar!

I did say that our knowledge base is expanding exponentially. it would be mathmethically inconsistent if I claimed to know everything.

Yes, it is the job of Physicist to question existing theories. Call me a cynic, but that's how they get their research funding. But seriously, in terms of cutting edge research, that's my area of interest. One of the key areas is looking at the length scales that are best explained by quantum, classical and relativistic theories.

Ego Maximize!

[Boris]

Has anyone here realised that Goktimus Prime and Ego Maximus are both the same person?
I point you to exhibit A: Both have strange fetishes with Transformers. This is evident in the final tag of the Ego Maximus persona where he delcares quite stupidly "Ego Maximise". Clearly the sign of a wanker.

Exhibit B: Length and style of their correspondences. Both have the similar style of writing with the use of direct quotes as the giveaway to their singular identity. They both like to write alot about nothing, and horribly indepth at a non-argumentive discourse.

Exhibit C: The most ****ing of all : Ego Maximus' email address. EGO_Maxxximus@yahoo.com.au. What self respecting Yank would have an Australian email address? I let you the Jury, ponder that question, for Goktimus Prime is Guilty of impersonating other people badly and living a very sad life.

BTW Goktimus/ Ego/ Wanker, no I'm not after your sexual preference, because quitely clearly you are into the bondage stuff already with the triple X in your email address and your constant reference to it in your discussion. I have a very beautiful Girlfriend, Natasha, to go home to, so don't worry about me.

If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything

[Fish of Fury]

ego

if you are researcher, great. i have a lot of respect for science...i just don't believe it is the WHOLE truth.it is just one paradigm of understanding...if another system of thought has a different way of explaining something they are not necessarily wrong just because science has a different explanation.
that would be very narrow minded.
unfortunately "science" has become almost a replacement for religion in some people, with the same closemindedness and inability to THINK about the knowledge they aquire.

[Shaolin Temple]

goktimus, ego maiximus, ignoramus and patheticus if you are all the same, shame on you...you coward…hopefully after you finish reading this, you may be enlightned by some new information.

Never argue against a Doctor when it comes to health and research papers…oh dear, did your pride back fire on you now?

I cannot believe a teacher such as yourself is so ignorant, narrow minded and emotionally influenced.

So you want papers…here we go. Hopefully this will educate you and maybe someone like you who is absolutely ill informed and lack facts should crawl back into your cave. That's where you belong. You are a teacher...sounds more like you are my student here. If you were in my class, I would not hesitate to fail you several times.

First you dispute the existence of Southern Shaolin…what is the matter? No more comments on that now after the link I gave you. That is the first to show your so-called wit is educated insolence. You are more of an uneducated twit and like I said before…I feel sorry for your students that they have a student teacher that is so ill informed, this is harmful to the students.

Regarding cross-referencing to research papers, do you ever read any of the medical ones? You find that a lot of references are made and researched into old treatment techniques now. E.g. leech therapy post-amputational reconstruction for prevention of avascular necrosis of the tissue involved. Before you jump up again and shout out loud prove it…let your well-trained toes (by now they should be extremely good at typing…) surf the net for leech therapy. Perhaps they will work wonders for your ego and your so-called sore hands.

Next you talk about increasing calcium via milk and cheese…what nutritional advice have you been getting? Are you an agent of the dairy industry? Probably explains your "calcium filled brain!" Too hard to allow new information in? All dieticians who are not sponsored by the dairy industry will tell you that this is not true. Such marketing ploy works wonders on ill informed and gullible people such as yourself. You get better sources from soy, almond and etc…fish of death is right about calcium…you? Disappointed…and you are a teacher? So have you been contributing your young students to the osteoporosis statistic?

Treatment of viruses, how about radical treatment and management in AIDS? Is that virus big enough for you? Can you handle it? How about the article by Liu Guanjun. Affiliated Hospital of Changchun College of TCM, Jilin l3002l, China (Acupuncture and some decoction, such as bazhen decoction, Prove it effective to treat AIDS) and also another article by:
Clinical Acupuncture: AIDS By Wang Shaorong,1 Liang Chunyu 2 Shang Xiukui 2 ( 1Tianjin College of TCM; 2China Academy of TCM)

Here's more research papers for you. Maybe this will increase your database in your limited knowledge! With your attitude, skeptic nature, once again, what kind of teacher are you? You are supposed to be opened minded and listen and learn as much as possible and should research your own lack of information before you cry out loud…show me the papers…for a moment I thought I was quoting Jerry McGuire.

By the way, just because I am a Doctor and Medical Scientist does that mean I have to produce papers. Have you ever heard of the Australian version of FRACRS or FRACGP and etc. You can be a scientist but you don't necessarily have to produce papers do you. People who graduate from law, do they go on to practice law? Not always…most of my university friends graduated with law and are practicing management consultants…not lawyers…what a stupid comment.

Before you go ahead and dispel these papers as being invalid…read and dig it up first and then see for yourself in the material medica…these papers have been quoted in the British, Australian and American Medical Journals…and many many more. Perhaps you will still dispute it because you might come up with another sad excuse and criticize again.

Here's a classic one with references in western journals:

Treatment of depression:
This has articles referenced in,
Morris R.Developments of a water-maze procedure for studying spatial leaning in rats. J.Neurosci Methods, 1984,11:47-60.
Siegel I,et al. The red cell immune system. Lancent, 1981,11: 556.
World Journal Of Acupuncture-Moxibustion Vol.10 No.2, June, 2000, Experimental Research Influence of Electroacupuncture on Hypertension Vascular Dementia and Its Red Cell Immune Function in the Rat Mo Feizhi, 1. Li JianQiang, 2. Lei Liping, 3. Lai Xinsheng, 4. Liu Songhao
(1. Quantum Electronics Institute of South China Normal University, Guangzhou, 510631
2. Guangdong Provincial Hospital, Guangzhou 510407
3. Guangzhou University of TCM and Pharmacology, Guangzhou,510407)

"Depression Treated with the acupuncture and increased changes of Immune Level of Cells"
(By Liu Hechun, Zhao Xueying, Hu Qingju, Xu Daoxiong etc. from Institute of Mental Health, Beijing Medical University, Beijing 100083, China.) Now, show me a western medication that can increase immune cell count and treat depression. They manage not treat. If you check the good old MIMs, there's none yet. This is the paper that showed acupuncture opened closed off arteries post-cerebrovascular accident.

Hypertension:
Clinical Observation on the Treatment of Hypertension by comparison of Western Medicine and TCM therapies, by Deng Qihua & Fu Wenzeng, from Henan Academy of TCM, Zhengzhou, Hennan, China…the results…why don't you find out for yourself…being a teacher that kind of research work is not too much for you…is it?

Stroke:
Observation on the Therapeutic Effect of Enclosing Needling under CT Orientation for Treatment of Ischemia Cerebral Stroke and its Influence on Plasma Number by Li Yanhui, Jiang Ganghui, Pan Wenyu, (Dept. of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, First Affiliated Hospital of Guangzhou University of TCM and Pharmacology, Guangzhou 510405, China). There's no western treatment for strokes at the moment except anti-coagulation therapy. Patients are left partially disabled or paralysed. In TCM patients have been shown to gain 81% reduction in signs and symptoms of the stroke.

"Needle Method in treating impotence"( Lun Xin, Rong Li, and Dai Wenjun from Guangzhou University of Traditional Chinese Medicine, Guangzhou 510405, China )… Show me a urology treatment that is non invasive compared to this.

To rub it in, there's more…
Treatment of hyperlipidaemia…"Observation on Effect of TCM in Treating Cases of Hyperlipidemia, Hypercholesterolemia and Fatty Liver …By Yan Ruian, From Clinics of Xinrong Sanatorium of Sichuan Military Area, Chengdu, Sichuan 6l004l, China.

There's more even more on the treatment of:
Rheumatoid arthritis (By Ran Ruijin, from Dali Medical College, Yunnan Province, 67l000, China).

Acupuncture treatment of menopause… Yunnan Traditional Chinese Medicine, #5, 1993.

Obesity (By Zhou Wenquan Gao Pu, Li Yuehua etc., From National TCM Center of Gerontotherapeutics, Xiyuan Hospital The China Academy of' TCM, Beijing l0009l, China)


Is that enough for you or do you want more?

[pure killah]

listen goktimus/maximus now that i know who you realy are you better watch every thing you do cause ill beat the s**t out of you if you ever say anything like this again about the shoalin monks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To put it quick clearly, the reason why the monks underwent such harsh training in the old days is because they were IGNORANT of modern scientific methods available today. But you do so (train like the ancient monks) out of STUPIDITY! [/quote]

now i dont know what game boris the blade is trying to play and quite frankly i dont give a f**k ill beat the s**t out of anyone who gets in my way if you thought you were a hell raser kelvin you can relax and stop trying to raise it cause ill send you there if you f**k with me again.

[This message was edited by pure killah on 02-12-01 at 01:47 PM.]

[Lucky Red]

i someone really belives that they can go thru
life withhout getting Hurt they are just Stupid
pain is a part of learning if u dont learn what is
Dangerous and what Hurts .u make youre own Reality According to what you think is Reality
that is Dangerous ive seen it

lets take an example of learning
my father and his Friends was playing with a knife
they threw it up in the air and the one that got
the knife closest too his body won. well my father
Won the knife hit his head. this was a important
experince for him he never Played with Knifes Again This Story is True .he didnt really didnt
Know what could Happen Before it Happened


burnt Child is Scared of Fire

conditiong is important it prevents Injuries!!!!

i hit a guy in the head with a Strike
two of my fingers was Swollen for weeks
if i had proper conditiong this would happen
on a lesser scale or not at all


the Hardest Fight is the the one With yourself

[Lo Han #1]

as shaolin temple said soy is a greater source of calcium than dairy and even then it is very fragile inside the human stomach for example pns minimus if you eat a jar of cream cheese and 2 litres of milk thats alot more than your daily calcium intake but after that drink just one glass of coke and say good buy to all the calcium you just had, the caffeine and sugar will kill it all thus it's not a bad idea to seek more than one method to improve your bone dencity.

and as for the issue of you being pns minimus and ****sukin prime at the same time i realy dont blame you, after all if you didn't agree with yourself who else would i mean no person in there right mind would agree with your stupidass points of view

and to answer your question of what do i do with my cheese spreads something completely different from what you do with yours.

and it also looks like you got a couple of psychos on your hands hey guys how are ya boris and pure killer, and thanks for letting us in on that little fact borris :D

[prana]

ABandit, Fish, Lohan, ShaoLin, Pure Killah, Muhhamad, Lucky Red and Van Damme.

I had the pleasure to come back to see the great philosophers, doctors and professionals that all of you are ! For I am just a student of this almighty art, I praise Buddha Sakyamuni and Gautama and all the subsequent Buddha's who's unexcelled Wisdom have been passed on to this day for our witness and for a chance to be shown the path.

I see a lot of great minds out there. Long live the Shao Lin temple. And may all beings, big or small, visible and invisible be happy.

Do not fear the great light of compassion on the third day of your path. Do not be enticed by the soft yellow lights of hell. May your red and white lights unite, and be one with the Wisdom of Buddhas. May all beings find peace and happiness.

And most of all, pardon my verbal bollocks that has taken up this section of the post.

[Muhammad]

Guys i think that we all know why goktimus is impersonating ego, as i said bfore he is weak and he knows that, we can't expect everyone to have the same ability as us, in the world there are people with lesser abilities, who cannot take as much pain, or understand simple concepts. Yes u all call him close minded and tease him, but it is not his fault that he can only handle a few concepts. We should all have spotted his inadequacy in dealing with new concepts early in the post, and help him along to understand and not tease him. Maybe one concept a day, but that too might be pushin him and might cause his head to hurt, and knowing his low tresh hold for pain we do not want to make him cry out "Oww, this is painful, stop it!".

so this is what we gotta do:)

WE ALL GOTTA ACCEPT THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT BORN EQUAL, and so do not be angry at ego/goktimus he can't help it if he was dealt a bad hand in life. In the world of primates there are Humans and there are monkeys, and in the human world there are normal people and there is ego/goktimus.

We should all stop picking on ego/goktimus and say "it's all right to come out of your shell and be yourself, it is all right to be weak, it is alright to not understand and definately it is alright to be special:) "

I will always support the weak and lesser people, so ego/goktimus, it is allright, u have a friend here, and above all i understand:)

Peace

There is only one god and Muhammad is his prophet

[Boris]

Thanks for acting like a thug that I know you are but what the hell did I do to you?

I know you're close to Goktimus and are in Sydney, so what do you want? I am not playing any game here, if you want to play games load up Tekken Tag Tournament. So chill man. I haven't got no beef with you so why get so antsy with me?

I ain't no psycho, I just got suspicous so I checked the profile and checked what was previously written and compared it. No David Copperfield magic act really. I'm actually suprised that none of you realised that before. Still there could be a chance that Goktimus isn't Ego Maximus, a very slim chance and this is so some great coincidence but my BS detector is going out of control.

Anyway, my pleasure Lohan #1...It looks like Goktimus has stepped on more than enough toes in Sydney. Still, I don't know how he can call himself a martial artist, more chronic wanker I think.

If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything

[joedoe]

I think Pure Killah was probably reacting to your ending line - gotta admit it surprised me until I realised it was your tag :).

Anyway, whether Ego & Goktimus are one person or two, he/they are closed minded idiots. I have decided that while I will follow the progress of this thread, I will no longer allow myself to be drawn into the 'discussion'. I think the original thread has long since died and all that remains is a swinging ****s contest.

To everyone in general: It is admirable that so many people are so passionate about the martial arts and in particular kung fu, but don't you think that threatening to kill someone is going a little too far?

One final shot at Ego/Goktimus: Open your mind, not your butt.

[pure killah]

dont sweat it boris i aint got no beef wid you either what i meant was!!!! s**t i forgot what i meant but im sure i wasnt having a go at you when i wrote it but im sure about one thing if that motherf**ker doesnt want to get his d**k chopped of have it shoved in his mouth then sow his lips together he better watch what the f**k he says and watch who the f**k hes f**king with cause if i get my hands on that ***** im gonna tear him apart!!!!

[Fish of Fury]

where is goktimus anyway.
he hasn't replied for a while, i hope none of you brutes bruised his ego, cos he'll sue. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Temple]

Peace brother...hey pure killah, thanks for your support but chill out man. Like great Muhammed said, he is special...ease it into him slowly...I talking about information okay...not your schlong!!!

No more comments? What happened to the teacher? Nothing more to say...perhaps Socrates saying applies here, a question well asked is halfly answered. Whoa, was the case studies too heavy for you goktimus/ego...Muhammed...any solution for teaching the special few amongst us?

[This message was edited by Shaolin Temple on 02-12-01 at 07:30 PM.]

[joedoe]

Maybe he's too busy with his head in the sand :)

To the Author of Pure Killah

I appreciate your critique of the virtual & fictional character "Ego Maximus" that had been created specifically for this forum.

However, in your last post you have threatened me with publically on this forum. I consider this to be a serious matter which I have every intention to take up with the relevant Authorities in Australia. Threathening others with physical force be it verbally, written or transmitted through any electronic means is ILLIGAL!

If you retract you earlier statmentment, I may decide to take it into consideration in my follow up course of action on this issue.

Furthermore, I advise that "Goktimus Prime" is not a character of my creation. I notice that you have also made the same threat to the Author of "Goktimus Prime". How you intend to follow up on this issue is entirely your decision. Nevertheless, you are fully aware of your legal stand point.

This is no joke. To the other Members and Moderators, I thank you for your attention.

Have a good day.

Ego Maximize!

[Boris]

Ego/Goktimus you dog-felating, anal retentive stupid sunnuva b!tch! What's your problem?

Your mother drop you at birth and decide to do a bellyflop on you or something? What's this BS about suing people? C'om sue all of us because I'm pretty sure everyone wants to pound twelve shades of grey out of you anyway besides Pure Killah. You insult style after style and it's nothing personal, is it? Nah, because if it is, you'll sue. Man, I'm scared. Wait a minute, aren't you a martial arts "teacher"? A martial arts "teacher" so in touch with his Chi and ability that your attorney has all your Chi. I'm sure Wong Fei Hung and all the Kung Fu heroes did that when they were in trouble. Man, I really feel sorry for your Sifu to have such a disrespectful student.

Don't deny you're not Goktimus, all the evidence points to you and I'm pretty sure, everyone is sick to death of your crap. You think denial and this legal BullSh!t will take the heat off you? Don't count on it.

PEOPLE: Want more proof? They both have an urge to sue people when someone gets "hurt". I'm actually sorry for his mother, since she'll be sued every time he trips over in the yard, for neglecting to make the property safe enough for him to live there.

If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything

[This message was edited by Boris The Blade on 02-13-01 at 04:16 AM.]

[Goktimus Prime]

*deep sigh*

First of all, lemme clear some things up.

1. I'm not Ego Maximus. In case you haven't noticed, he spells "Maximise" with the Greek "-ize" ending used in US English, where I would've used the Latin "-ise" ending used in normal English. (also, his messages just aren't long winded enough to be from me!) ;p

2. Traditions do not supercede the law. You can have a tradition of marrying your first cousin, but that doesn't excuse you from breaking the law.

3. Call me a wuss. Yeah, you guys are so brave you can resort to flaming people over the Internet. Aw gee, that takes guts (note the extreme sarcasm). As I already pointed out extensively in my original message, I was NOT criticising the act of doing arm knocking, I was commenting on the way it was taught. LEARNING/CONDITIONING IS A GRADUAL PROCESS. When you go into a gym for the first time, you don't usually start with the 100kg barbell straight away. Usually you start with small hand weights and work your way up as your strength improves. When you learn to swim for the very first time as a kid, the instructor doesn't shove you in the pool and ask you to swim 200m. No, you're usually taught to tread water and use the kickboard first. When you learn a new language, you don't expect to have a science journal written in the target language tossed at you. No. You learn the script, then how to make words, then phrases, sentences, grammar etc. --> and you progress through stages. Even most martial arts schools have grades. And why? Because you start from a low level and work your way up. You do not start from the advanced level straight away. It's THAT bloody simple!! If they had started arm knocking at a level that I could cope with, and built up from there, then I would have nothing to complain about.

4. Can someone give me some NAMES of texts where you're getting information about these other Shaolin temples? I'd like to read up on it. Oh, and I will check out that web site later on. Thank you.

5. I am defending the right of others. Even if other people go to that school and want to be bruised, they can't. This is because you can NOT waver your own human rights. As I said before, just as you can NOT consent to slavery, you also can NOT consent to being directly injured.

6. I do understand that injuries occur in martial arts. I've taken a fair few of them myself (this incident was NOT my first injury) -- but what made this case an exception was the fact that the injury arose due to negligence/lack of duty of care. Stop generalising everything.

7. For those of you who have thrown names at me like "wanker" or "gay" etc., what are you? Fourth graders?!

If you're going to make any further comments, please do so in a RATIONAL manner. Believe it or not, you CAN disagree with someone without needing to lower yourself to a flame war.

Oh, and if you're wondering why I don't frequent this board often, well.. it's because I've already repeated my points over and over again, and well, if you can't understand it or even contribute in a semi academic fashion, then I'm just not going to bother continuing to participate in this thread.

No, I'm not "chickening out" -- I just don't want to waste MY time talking to people who can't make a relevant contribution to this issue. It's that simple.

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[prana]

Goktimus,
"The wok calls the kettle black"... I think I speak for all of us, you should stick to your books and literature, and keep them to youself. You seem to be good at it. Don't corrupt our art with your knowledge. You may not wish to respect our legendary traditions, that is fine with me (and I think I speak for the rest of us), but you ought to keep your whinning to someone who gives a ****.

By the posts that have been here, it seems you are a thorn in many ones shoes. First I see you created enemies in Wuchu and by the sounds of it, Wing Chun.

Ego Max
"You can't save another with your head in the water". It seems you have resolve to a weaker solution to keep yourself afloat. Stand up for yourself! Otherwise we may not ever find you again under the dirt that you hide.

Martials Arts is after all about self discipline and self knowledge, and Max as for you, it is definitely NOT about fist fighting.

You people may win a case with the law but the way you are going, I wonder what self-respect you have left.

[Muhammad]

*deep *****

I see Goktimus u have finally overcome your weakness and post again, not once quoting "Oww, this is painful, stop it!" . Well done u have progress far my special friend. Yes Goktimus u are right about them not listening to u, they still have not realise that LEARNING/CONDITIONING IS A GRADUAL PROCESS and for u it just happens to be more gradual then usual, and we know why, it is b'cause u are special, don't worry i understand, but many people might not:)

As well i agree with goktimus defending his human rights, we know that due to his weakness he has more rights and it is our duty as martial artist to use our skill to defend the weaker and less fortunate like Goktimus, as we can NOT waver your own human rights, we can NOT waver his weakness.

For those of you who have thrown names at him like "wanker" or "gay", well there is just too much for him to understand all this different terms at once, so please just call him special.

Oh and don't worry about those threats about beatin u up, My suggestion is to make your bones stonger by taking more calcium tablet or if you prefer a more "natural" alternative, milk is good and so are cheeses. This way he will not be able to hurt u because u will have bones of steal, compared to the people who has only been usin arm hittin and dit da jao, as those people will be bruise and unable hurt u.

So don't worry my special boy all is well in Martial Arts land and yes "it is alright to be special"

There is only one god and Muhammad is his prophet

[This message was edited by MUHAMMAD on 02-13-01 at 03:35 PM.]

[joedoe]

Ego, don't worry about pure killah - he sounds like a fruit loop.

How do you know he is from Australia though? I couldn't find that out.

If he is, you've got nothing to worry about because he can't carry out his threats from over 8000 miles (13000 kms) away.

[joedoe]

Goktimus,

On Southern Shaolin, have a look at this thread:

http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=827198002&m=762192363

It is a discussion on other Southern arts but covers a great deal of ground on Southern Shaolin, as well as mentioning some texts/thesis on the subject.

Hope this helps.

[whitelion]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and was surprised when I found this topic here. I am an instructor in the Shaolin Wu Chu Chuan school that Goktimus Prime attended but was away at the time of the incident he relates. Anything I say here is not an official response from the school, and are purely my own statements and opinions.

Firstly, arm knocking is not considered an advanced training technique in our school - if we practice it during a class, even beginners are taught the arm knocking technique.

Secondly, we are a traditional school and we are proud of our heritage. Many of us also train very hard, and are very enthusiastic about the art. Also, as we train a lot of what we call 'heavy hands' (I don't know if other styles train this), somtimes people don't realise they are generating as much power as they do. Especially less experienced students.

It is regrettable that Goktimus Prime and his friend were injured. I have not heard the full story from my fellow instructors and students, but I have heard some of it. Goktimus has also been kind enough to enlighten me further on what occurred through this subject posting.

This is probably completely unrelated, but I had heard from other students that Goktimus Prime did not exactly behave in a respectful manner during the class, both towards the instructors and to other students.

I am not saying that Goktimus is wrong or right, and I wasn't there so everything (including Goktimus Prime's account) I say here is hearsay, but that there may be more to the story than Goktimus Prime has related.

Again, This is not an official reply from the club, and I have no beef with you Goktimus Prime. Neither is this reply intended to refute you or to antagonise you in any way. I am just pointing out some things I have heard from a few students.

I understand your point about duty of care, but there is also such a thing as common sense.

As Goktimus also pointed out, there have been measures taken to ensure that new students are more carefully monitored. We have taken this incident on board and have tried to learn from it.

Talk softly and carry a big stick.

[This message was edited by Broad Sword on 02-13-01 at 08:19 PM.]

[Boris]

My sympathy goes out to your school. People like this shouldn't even be allowed to practice Karate or Tae Kwon Do let alone Kung Fu. I am sorry that he visited your school and kicked up a fuss over nothing.

I asked a friend of mine who is a lawyer on this subject and he said that the person who owns the place where you train may be responsible if you injure yourself using equipment on the premises. This ofcourse doesn't excuse stupidity and if you do something stupid on the premises, thats up to you. Secondly, if you do something consensually, you have the responsibility to stop when it gets dangerous. It's like driving, if you know going over 60 Km/Hr is going to be dangerous on a wet road then you should try to slow down. This is the same here, if it starts to hurt beyond belief, it is your responisbility to stop and not be a complete Wanker and continue doing it, while the pain is killing you. You can't say this wasn't consensual, you CHOSE to participate and continue even when it hurt. No body ever FORCES anybody to do anything in any class. You did a dumb thing, and you blame someone else, it is the true sign of a wanker!

Personally, this is martial arts not Ballet, pain is going to be part of the norm in classes. I've have had minor amounts of pain, but I think conditioning will hurt to various degrees. Sure, you have to learn gradually, but if you ever done any exercise, you know the pain when muscle begins to grow to make you stronger. So if you don't feel pain in physical exercise Goktimus/EGO maximum Wanker, you both are stupid fat arseholes.

If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything

[prana]

Now I see what is going on. It seems the skunk thought if he could hide in the dark that he might be mistaken for a harmless squirrel.

Broadsword, kudo's for enlightening us man !

hey man if ya where injured why did ya keep going???and dont say that they wouldnt let u...because u know as well as i do that they would have stoped if ya told them too!!!!i have and idea for ya why dont ya lift weights and put some muscle on those weak arms of urs!!!!!and stop complaining!!!!!

[Goktimus Prime]

I can't believe how immature some people are here. Babbling on in a thuglike manner about, "I'm strong, you're weak" etc etc., and pretending to know anything about the learning process. (not to mention ignorance of Tongans... if you'd ever met a Tongan, you'd know that they're NOT wimps - Tongans are BIG people - so if a Tongan is feeling pain...) *sigh* Anyway, I'm not even going to bother to dignify those comments with a reply (waste of time). I'm only going to reply to relevant comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Firstly, arm knocking is not considered an advanced training technique in our school - if we practice it during a class, even beginners are taught the arm knocking technique.[/quote]

That's what I thought, but when I went back there do discuss this issue, one of the instructors told me that it was an advanced technique.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Secondly, we are a traditional school and we are proud of our heritage. Many of us also train very hard, and are very enthusiastic about the art. Also, as we train a lot of what we call 'heavy hands' (I don't know if other styles train this), somtimes people don't realise they are generating as much power as they do. Especially less experienced students.[/quote]

Then it would be up to the instructors to ensure that nobody is going too rough on others. Likewise, you also need to ensure that someone isn't going too weak on someone you know can tolerate more power (otherwise they won't gain any benefit from the exercise).

Part of being a teacher is to know how much or how little to give to a student. Allow me to make an analogy with school education. In NSW Special Education covers the education of both the intellectually gifted and the intellectually challenged (the gov't has lumped them together to save money, 'cos they're cheap). Whereas traditionally, the intellectually challenged were placed in special schools, we are seeing a reversal of this trend, with the gov't systematically closing down schools for the intellectually challenged and integrating them with regular students. Also, gifted students are being removed and placed into special selective schools. However, placements in selective schools are limited, so we do still get a lot of bright students entering regular schools. This leaves the average classroom with an extremely diverse range of students in terms of intellect.

Therefore, some universities have now deemed it compulsory for student teahers such as myself to be trained in Special Education (ie: we MUST be qualified to teach both the intellectually gifted and handicapped) -- although not all unis do this (I see no need to start naming any universities here).

Obviously you're not going to give the same tasks, or at least, not at the same level, to all students. Challenged students will become confused and frustrated. Gifted students will become bored and frustrated. Therefore, you need to give tasks at an appropriate level to the student.

Even if ALL the students in your class are of equal intellect, you still need to give different levels of tasks depending on their level. That's why we have different grades in high school -- year 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 -- with each level becoming increasingly harder.

Now Broad Sword, I'm sure you understand this, but what I'm saying is that students should also have some understanding of this as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is probably completely unrelated, but I had heard from other students that Goktimus Prime did not exactly behave in a respectful manner during the class, both towards the instructors and to other students.[/quote]

Allow me to clarify what happened. When I went back to talk to the other instructors about what happened, one of them told me that one of the students I sparred with complained that I was too rough with him. Now, I did not do this intentionally, and if he had TOLD me that I was going too fast, or that I was being too strong, then I would have happily slowed down for him.

The fact is, he didn't say anything like, "this is hurting me," which does NOT mean you're a wimp. It just means that you KNOW your limitations. If he had told me that I was being too fast or strong, I would not (unlike some other thugs on this thread) laughed at him and said, "hahahah, you're a weak wanker, you should leave this school because you're too wimpy to do martial arts" or any other NONSENSE like that. I would have apologised, and then continued the drill at a slower pace.

I was a newbie at the school, so I don't know what level the students are at. The fellow I was sparring with was actually pretty strong and fast, so I thought he could handle a bit more speed and power.

If I was doing anything that someone didn't approve of, all they had to do was tell me. It happens a lot because no two martial arts schools are the same, and try as you may to train in other schools, it's a fact of life that different schools have different rules, regulations and standards. The same thing happens when other MAs visit our school. We don't get offended by it. We either ignore it, or just say, "look, we prefer to practise this way because (insert reason)."

I apologised to the instructors for any offence, but again, it was not intentional.

The difference between what happened there and what happened with me was that I <u>did</u> say that I was feeling pain.

Hypothetically speaking, even <u>if</u> I HAD intentionally hurt that other student, the school would still be liable. So really, it is in the instructor's best interest to make sure that NONE of your students are hurting each other, because if someone does get seriously injured, it is not the offending student who is liable, but the teacher/school.

But as an insured instructor, I'm sure you already knew that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am not saying that Goktimus is wrong or right, and I wasn't there so everything (including Goktimus Prime's account) I say here is hearsay, [/quote]

Well, I'm very glad that you've actually made a RATIONAL reply instead of some of the more barbaric responses from some of the other users here.

Thank you for using common sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but that there may be more to the story than Goktimus Prime has related.[/quote]

Well, I was merely referring to the arm knocking.

It was a regrettable incident, but as the disclaimer on my first message said, this discussion thread was merely commenting on the way that arm knocking was taught that night.

It was a comment on the WAY it was taught.

I was in NO way making ANY comment about Shaolin Wuchu. In fact, I still do have respect for that school as I always have. The main reason why I raised awareness of this incident to the instructors was because: (a) I don't want to see any other students in that school get hurt, and (b) I don't want to see a good Kung Fu school get into legal trouble due to something that is really, easily avoidable.

If I was doing this for personal profit or to simply cause trouble to the school, I would have already contacted my solicitor and taken legal action a long time ago (which is what my friend who came along, wanted me to do, but I talked him out of it).

I've recommended that Wuchu school to other people (especially those interested in Southern Kung Fu or in retracing the origins of Karate) and I will most likely continue to do so. The only possible difference would be that in future, I would tell people that if they feel uncomfortable with any exercises, to immediately tell one of the instructors. Something I'm sure you'd agree would be in the best interests of everyone.

Hope that clears things up.

"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle (284-322 BC)

[This message was edited by Goktimus Prime on 02-14-01 at 09:35 PM.]

[whitelion]

Goktimus Prime:

I am glad to hear that you bear no ill will towards the school, as IMHO it is a good school.

Sometimes students do get a little carried away with their training and maybe don't realise how hard they are going at it. I am not making excuses, I am just stating a fact :). As I'm sure you would be willing to admit, people make mistakes.

As I said previously, measures have been taken to ensure that similar incidents do not occur.

Thank you for your concern. Your comments have been taken into consideration.

------------------------------------
Talk softly and carry a big stick.

[Boris]

I give up. This is too much BS for my liking. If I was getting somewhere with this, I would, but Goktimus fa99ot / Ego Maximum pu55y seem too stupid to understand and will probably pull a court case on my arse if I do try. So it's been fun but it's not over yet.

Broadsword : What type of idiot are you? This guy insulted and took the pi55 out of your school man.
You should be breathin' ash and fire. Just because he threatened you with his "legal" action doesn't excuse you from becoming a total pu55y. Stand up for yourself man, or atleast your school. Tradition and methods of teaching were passed down so that it would ensure that if you needed to use them, you would be tough enough to kill the other person, decapitate him and eat his kidneys with a glass of Chianti and fava beans. If you change this training, your school WILL SUCK BIG TIME!!!!!!!. So I'm urging you to reconsider all these precautions, you will be killing the art and spirit of your style.

I know Goktimus, so you have retired the character of Ego. You've been caught with your pants down blowing the cleaner. I don't blame you, since no one else will agree with you. I'm not going to bother with your longwinded crap, although I've read it. Read some of the posts again and you'll gleam some very important lessons that you are currently too pig headed to realise. I certainly can't be bothered to explain them so Adios FAT ASS! Tell me when you master all the Lui Kang Bicycle kick, will you. That's the only Kung Fu you'll ever practice. mOVE CLOUDS WITH YOUR CHI.

It's been fun people, see you on another more constructive thread.
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If you hold anything back, I'll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if I think you're bending the truth, I'll kill you. If you forget anything, I'll kill you. In fact, you're going to have to work very hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everythin

[This message was edited by Boris The Blade on 02-15-01 at 08:53 PM.]