your thoughts on Karate

[Kristoffer]

.

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Repulsive Monkey]

...give it a miss if I was you. There's more effective arts around.

[honorisc]

Awesome fighting potential if you have innovativeness. Good for increased awareness and appreciation of life~ my say.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Sil Lum Palm]

Karate can be a great art if your teacher has good teaching qualities. Karate is allways enhanced my Internal exercises. Corporate some Chi Gung exercises, and maybe a little chin na and you'll have yourself a package.

[phantom]

I think the vast majority of karate styles will not be very effective against someone who has some fighting training. I feel that kyokushinkai is an exception to the rule. Some kyokushinkai practitioners have faired well against some of the best kinds of fighters there are, including Muay Thai and wing chun guys. I believe that Tae Kwon Do and Ed Parker's Kenpo can do a good job of helping you to improve upon another stlye. I do not think that they are very effective in and of themselves, however. They definitely would not be a good art to start off with, IMHO. Peace. :D

[JerryLove]

"Some kyokushinkai practitioners have faired well against some of the best kinds of fighters there are, including Muay Thai and wing chun guys."

This begs several questions....

What criteria are you using to determing that "Muay Thai and Wing Chun guys" are "some of the best kinds of fighters"?

And *when* have "Some Kyokushinaki practitioners" faught such people, and what were their credientials?

[phantom]

Okay Jerry, now I go to admit that I do not know all of the details. However, three of Oyama's top student put themselves through the training regimen of the Thai's, yet they stuck to Kyokushin techniques. They fought three Muay thai guys, and two of them won.Muay Thai is recognized as one of the best striking arts there is, which is why I feel they are among the best fighters out there. Also, I have heard about a whole team of kyokushin guys who went up against a whole team of wing chun guys. When the Wing Chun guys tried to block The kyokushin guys' punches, they broke their arms. A kyokushin guy also told me that he defeated his wing chun instructor by throwing a series of low kicks against him. I do not know the guy personally, however. I just talked with him on a discussion board. Peace. :D

[Budokan]

I like it. It's not ineffective and it's as good an art as the teacher and the student taking it.

That's right. It's the person, not the style, stupid.

K. Mark Hoover

[phantom]

Budokan, I will have you know that I studied ****o-ryu for 4 years, was about ready to go for my first degree brown belt in it, and still did not feel that I could take care of myself very well. The school was very sport-oriented,so maybe that was what the problem was. However, the vast majority of karate schools in the United States also seem to be very sport-oriented. I have read about many matches between karate people and kung fu people, as well as between karate people and Muay Thai people. The kyokushin practitioners were the only karate people that ever won against the thais and kung fu practitioners.If you can cite examples of other karate styles doing well against trained fighters, then please enlighten me. I am not trying to flame here. I am just trying to get to the bottom of the truth. Peace :D

[phantom]

Oh how I wish there was a way that I could post my viewpoints without risking offending anyone. :(

[Budokan]

If you studied ****o-ryu for 4 years and still didn't feel like you could defend yourself then you were in a bad school. And you are right, most MA schools ARE sport oriented; it's tough to find a good one.

But that shouldn't be viewed as a failure of ****o-ryu or karate in general--or of yourself. ;)

K. Mark Hoover

[omegapoint]

Non-Ryukyuan ****o Ryu is a joke. It's like Japanese Goju with 50 Katas. How could an "art" like that ever be effective unless you were a good street fighter before entering it. It's just another "broke" version of Okinawan Karate (Shuri Te+Naha Te), Japanacised and cannibalized to make money on the free-market. Why don't you Einsteins research this isht before you take it? ****o Ryu is almost exclusively a competition style, with low stances and inefficient fighting principles. Please get some semblance of a clue before you spout. Remember RIF-Reading Is FUNdaMental!!! By the way Mas Oyama's Kyokushinkai is broke-assed Shotokan (Japanese Sport Shorin Ryu) with no more 100 man Kumite, so it's just like most Japanese Karate, useless in a real altercation (unless your fighting a know-nothing)!! Peac... Hold up, I'm not gonna waste that on a perpetually tempestuous dullard!!! :mad:

[omegapoint]

You idiots on this forum buff each others apples and give props to the most inane shiznit!!! I enjoy mentally engaging people and that seems to be lacking here. First one guy says that words are more physically painful than beat downs, bullets and bombs, then some Mensa member puts down Karate 'cuz he got duped into taking Japanese ****o Ryu"... No wonder the world is F'ed up, if you people are helping it to work then mankind is DOOMED.

Even these freakin' POLYTRICKtians that run isht have got you tricked into believing you're somehow not in Pharoahs Egypt or Caeser's Rome! It's what you deserve, you'll never leave the U.S.A let alone your hometown or state, so you go on believin' you got it all figured out. Give those in power your money, mind and soul and perpetuate the STATUS QUO...DUMB FizUCKS!!! Of course this is not an indictment of everyone on this forum. The microcosm is a reflection of the Macrocosm, so only 90% of you all need be concerned...AAAAAAAAAAAAthptpppthftht :p !!!

[Kristoffer]

riiiiiight, chill everyone? :D
I am just interested in how other kung fu students feel about karate. Uhmm, ok, so how is the Okinawan Karate (Shuri Te+Naha Te) different from the stuff we see out there now? is Shuri Te+Naha Te a rare art to find?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Budokan]

I think so. There isn't any one person or group like , say, JKA, that promotes them. I do think they're still taught overseas but they haven't really gotten the run they deserve, IMO.

K. Mark Hoover

[rogue]

Yo Omega, that Angle Dust is bad for ya dude! :rolleyes:


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[omegapoint]

Rogue: No dust, just testosterone that sometimes makes me "testy". I apologize for the rant, as it ain't y'alls fault for knowing what you know. There is a reason America isn't in the top ten of nations as far as grade school education is concerned.
What is Shuri Te and Naha Te? Jesus I hope you're not a Karateka. If so then that's scary!!! Let me simplify this. Shuri Te= Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu and its Japanese offshoots (ex. Shotokan) (basically) and Naha Te= Okinawan Goju Ryu, and Uechi ryu (Pangai Noon) and its offshoots (ex.Japanese Goju Ryu). Shuri and Naha are names of cities (villages in Okinawa). Te means "hand" or "hand art". Kyokushinkai is a mixture of Shuri and Naha Te with an emphasis on Funakoshi's "modernized" Shorin Ryu(which means Shaolin Way) called Shotokan. Another misunderstood style is Kenpo. It is NOT originally an American contrivance and in fact Mas Oyama's (Kyokushinkai's founder) took Chinese Kempo as his first style. Okinawan Kenpo was around long before Ed Parker or James Mitose! Kenpo means "Chuan Fa" in Japanese and I think that my next point is apparent. From China to Okinawa and Japan, to Hawaii to the mainland USA. The original Kenpo was an original art, but it isn't what Mitose and Parker "reformulated". Hope this helps, you level-headed intellectuals!Later...
:cool:

[Daedalus]

I agree whole-heartedly!

As far as karate goes though, I'd say that 75% of what's being taught in the U.S. right now is the watered down stuff that came out of post WWII Japan/Okinawa.

Why?

Let's think about it. If you just got your @$$ kicked, would you turn around and teach all your fighting secrets to the guy who just stomped you?
No! But you'd take his money and teach him a bunch of crap instead. Just like the Okinawans did to American servicemen after WWII.

I think that most karate styles are still effected by this deception today. Those who are followers will never grow beyond it; those who are innovators already have.

[oldwolf]

You are obviously well read and researched and I believe a crane stylist, despite well thought out replies on this and other boards you view is blinkered by the very brand loyalty you accuse Karateka of.

I am glad, that after 26 years of misguided karate of various varieies, ****oryu (Tani Ha, Tsukada), Goju ryu (M,Higoana), Kyokushin (S.Arneil), Sankukai (Butch White) etc, I have come on the internet and been enlightened by a practitioner of a style I claim my heritage from.
In spite of the ineffective styles I have trained in I have managed to survive so far and must have been lucky in the confrontations I have been in as a bodyguard / bouncer and some time bare knuckle fighter, Karma neh!

I am enlightened, I will not sin again.

Please feel free to point out my nearest crane stylist (that you recommend) that I may be enlightened further.

"And the crowd called out for more"

[omegapoint]

Old Wolf: Sir, your fighting lineage is very admirable. I didn't meant to say all of the styles you've been involved with were ineffective, just that some may be modern interpretations of a complete, older artform. Kyokushinkai is an awesome form of fighting as is Okinawan ****o Ryu. I haven't had vast experience with Japanese ****o Ryu stylists, but it seems to be an effective system. You are probably also a prime example of an artist's vs. the art's effectiveness. I would gather being a bouncer would entail some street experience and size to boot. Thank you for the compliment on my knowledge, and I agree I can be prejudicial when it comes to my interpretation of Martial Art.

I don't mean to downgrade others, but lack of knowledge is one of my pet peeves. That is a flaw I need desperately to work on! I myself am far from ILLuminated or enlightened, and on the contrary am wishing to dispose of convention and eventually interpret for myself. "From the void springs everything", is a maxim I wish to embrace and understand. So as you can see I have a looooong way to go.

As for Crane stylists, anyone versed in Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu or even Okinawan Goju Ryu should be able to help you or at least point you in the right direction. Also, anyone with Fukien white Crane GongFu knowledge would be ideal. I don't know of any practitioners off-hand on the British Isles, but I can ask some people I know if they can help me help you.

Peace, and I hope you find what you're looking for in MAs and life.Have a great week/weekend!!! :D

[oldwolf]

Omegapoint, you are forgiven!

I do know of several 'white crane stylists' in the UK, but they are laughable, I reckon they jumped on the band wagon.

Not long back from a lomg weekend training with Ryozu Tsukada (****oryu) which we spent on the Bunkai of Tomari Rohai, Itosu Rohai, Goju Sesan and Matsumura Sesan. Although I had worked on these Kata before what was refreshing was Tsukada Senseis intimate knowledge of the subtle (and sometimes not so) differences and the nuances of the different schools. Bunkai, bunkai and then more Bunkai. Good training.
Also recently been training with a Shotkan godan under Taji Kase, who recognise the limitation of their style but boy can they make it work for them.
Train hard, train soft, but train. :D

"And the crowd called out for more"

[omegapoint]

Sesan is one of my favorite forms! It has numerous hidden grappling techs. Your style of ****o Ryu practices Matsumura Sesan? Awesome!!! What is the difference between Goju's Sesan and Matsumura's Sesan. Rohai is a beautiful form, I wonder if it's similar to the Shorin version(s) ?
I think I remember of one Dojo my Sensei did a seminar at a few years back. This was in the late 80's but the dude might still be around. If I remember correctly it was in Hatfield, England, but I can't remember any instructor or school names. I'll ask Kyoshi Lindsey this weekend when I train.
In Sensei Lindsey's organization (Kokusai ShuriTe Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai, All Shorin Ryu Style) we are continuously learning and researching the White Crane aspects of our style. He corresponds and trains with a Sifu Wong of Fujian White Crane in NYC. Many people from multiple styles, Kyokushin, Goju Ryu, Shotokan, ****o Ryu, all styles of Karate, study under Lindsey, and many travel hundreds of miles to do so. He is truly a hidden font of fighting info! He can be reached at this address: Ronald Lindsey, PO Box 689, Bastrop, Tx. 78602. Ask about our professional journal "Maishin Shorinji" and any other questions you may have. The info in the journal is history, strategy, and bunkai, as well as a reflections section which concentrates on a notable Okinawan stylist. Unlike Black Belt mag it is very well written with no advertisements. Peace and I hope this helps... :)

[oldwolf]

Hi OP,
Difficult to explain in any detail over the net without writing out each Kata, move for move.

Basic differences, Goju sesan is very short and is performed in sanchin dachi, the moves are similar but the central section of the Matsumura version is missing and of course the matsumura version is performed in ayooba(sp?) dachi.
The versions of Rohai, I know know five versions called Rohai, the most different ones are the Itosu Rohai sho, ni and sandan. Some moves are similar to the Tomari version and also another version I learned from a goju kai instructor.

"And the crowd called out for more"

[Kristoffer]

hi Omega,
actually, im not a karateka. Im a Shuai Shiao and Gong Fu student. I just wanna know what people think of karate. thank you

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[omegapoint]

O.W.: Rogue asked a question about differences in Isshin Ryu Seisan and other Seisans and I gave him an outline of the steps in Matsumura Seisan. Maybe you've already peeped, but it's on this same O.R.A. section of KFO if you're interested. Our Rohai Kata are Rohai Jo, Rohai Chu and Rohai Ge. They are used to prepare the student for learning the Hakutsuru (White Crane) forms. The Rohai are very cool kata! Talk with ya' later... :D

[omegapoint]

Wolf: The stance we use is called a Pinan Dachi. It's Matsumura's version of the forward or front stance. Also, we use an L-Stance in the middle segment of Seisan. Do you know of a site where I can see the steps for the Rohai you learned?

Kristoffer: What's up brother! Shuai Jiao is PHAT!! I have done Judo, Caique JiuJitsu (Rickson Gracie's Highest Ranking Black Belt) and wish there was a Shuai Jiao school near me! I wanna study it someday. I think that your original observation about the Sport Karate chicks was right on! Just look at Cynthia Rothrock's ass! ****!!!

There is real Karate out there though, and some of it is very Chinese in its approach to the MAs. I don't know about that Tournament stuff, man. Other than exposure, its only admirable attribute might be the FIIINE females that are part of the circuit. Later all... :)

[Kempo Guy]

As for Karate being effective, I for one feel that is up to the teacher. I've been to many schools where I can honestly say they would not be able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

But on the other hand, I have been to several excellent schools. Many of these schools were from the old-school Okinawan styles, such as Uechi Ryu and the different Shorin Ryu lineages, such as Matsumura Seito and Ryute (formerly Ryukyu Kempo). I definitely found the way bunkai was taught in Ryukyu Kempo to be very effective.

As for Japanese Karate, there are many strong styles as well. I only have experience in a couple of these, namely Kyokushin and Ashihara (with a little bit of Shotokan). I think Kyokushin and Ashihara are very no-nonsense styles with very practical and effective techniques. Of course in Kyokushin there is a big emphasis on their Knockdown fighting, which is of course rule-bound. Otherwise it's an awesome style. Ashihara is a spin-off from Kyokushin with a bigger emphasis on self-defense and practicality.

I want to reiterate the fact that the effectiveness of most styles are dependent of the teacher.

Just my $0.02.

KG

[phoenix-eye]

Oldwolf - nice to see another Scot on here.

[Stranger]

omegapoint,

Kyokushin's goju influence is as significant as its shotokan influence. Many other arts influenced Mas Oyama's martial development and many found their way into the kyokushin curriculum (and others have disappeared in recent decades). Oyama personally used and taught extensive breathing techniques (ibuki, tensho, sanchin, etc.) and internal development exercises (various seated and squating breathing routines). His Karate is real deal, MANY of his students are the real deal, and MANY of the student's students are the real deal. Nobody is claiming it is traditonal, but to deny their track record is illogical. They blended old and new training techniques in an effort to create a Renaissance in Karate away from "physical education" Karate being promoted in Japan at the time. The 100 man kumite is not dead. Shigeru Oyama is one instructor I can name off the top of my head that has done the marathon more than once and actually twice in one week if I recall.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[omegapoint]

In our dojo,once a month, we have 2 Kyokushin guys who travel about 200 miles to train. They explained to me that the majority of the fighting techs come from the emphasis of the Northern Kata (Shotokan and/or Shorin Ryu derivation). They also learn Sotuhern Kata such as Tensho and Seipai, but explained that their style was much closer to its Shotokan lineage. Regardless, many knowledgeable Ryukyuan stylists feel that the designation of Shorei (NahaTe/Goju Ryu) and Shorin (ShuriTe/Shorin Ryu) are meaningless (they mean the same thing) and that all Ryukyuan Ti descended arts are basically the same. The only significant difference may be in later interpretations, and in the commercialization of the art. When was the last Hyakunin Kumite? Just wondering 'cause these dudes told me it was basically extinct.
I asked them why they were training Matsumura Seito and they explained that my instructors knowledge of bunkai and body-change was exceptional and it has made them much tighter fighters and competitors. Later...

[Stranger]

In 1993-ish my friend (and on a few occasions me) were training under Sensei Tom DiGiaccomo (sp.?) from World Oyama Karate. During that time, they were trying to get together enough people for a hundred man kumite. It was not Tom doing it and, I don't know who he was recruiting for, but I believe it was happening at Shigeru Oyama's headquarters in NYC. I think that Shigeru Oyama did the two 100man kumite in a week, when he first set up shop in NY- which was quite some time ago. I don't know if the 1993 kumite was for him or not. I don't know how old he is.

I totally believe that a Kyokushin karateka who studied Traditional Okinawan Karate would learn quite a bit (of that we are in total agreement), however I choose not to discount the talents that Kyokushin fighters have on their own.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Kempo Guy]

I believe the last Hyakunin Kumite was done by Hajim kazumi in March '99. They are done few and far between (at least in the IKO), as I believe the one prior to that was done by Francisco Filho in 1995. I believe he did this twice that year (in Feb. and March), one completed in Brazil and the other in Japan.

Hope this helps,

KG