View Full Version : James Sun
How can James sun call himself the sole inherittor of the 8 step style when he didn't even learn from Master Wei? He learned from his brother who was a student of Master Wei.A teacher in taiwain trained with Master Wai for 30 years Master Wai stoped teaching 10 years before his death. James sun would have been 13 years old??
If James sun did learn from the sifu , he would have learned with some assistant instructor. Never the less, who would want to teach a 13 year old? You KNOW that the head sifu is not going to waste his time on a kid. Similar thing is that Bruce learned most of his wing chun from wong shun leung and william cheung. Some from Yip Man.
ANyways, I have heard that James Sun is a rip off 8 step mantis sifu. There you go.
08-29-2000, 06:41 AM
Didn't learn from Master Wei!? Master Wei started training him when he was six years old. In fact Master Wei saved his life, because he was deathly ill. Read the history on the 8 Step page http://www.8step.com Where are you guys being fed this load of crap!? James Sun a ripoff 8 Step Sifu!? Yeah right! Go talk to him and he can show you that he has Master Wei's blessing and his alone, which proves he's the sole inheritor and he's not a fake! You guys are complete morans get your facts straight before you make accusations.
Hopefully, there will be someone out there who can verify the fact that James Sun (Xun Guan-long) ever trained under Wei Xiao-tang. I am sure James Sun can back up his claim; however, there are other representatives of the 8 Step Tang Lang Quan system still teaching in Taiwan.
For this, I will have to stand by the comments made by mantis and word.
08-29-2000, 07:09 AM
8StepStudent, just wondering if you know what these footwork and kicking techniques mean in your system.
1. Bai Bu
2. Shu Bu
3. Die Bu
4. Ru Huan Bu
5. Nuo Bu
6. Tun Ta Bu
7. Xing Bu
8. Tuo Bu
1. Liao Yin Jiao
2. Yuan Yang Jiao
3. Fu Ren Jiao
4. Chuan Xin Jiao
5. Bian Zhuang Jiao
6. Bai Lian Jiao
7. Bi Men Jiao
8. Xuan Feng Jiao
1. Qiu Tui
2. Deng Jiao
3. Chuan Gong Tui
4. Zhan Tui
5. Cuo Tui
6. Xuang Fei Tui
7. She Tui
8. Sao Tang Tui
"Don't Believe Everything You Read, Especially On The Internet."
08-29-2000, 07:48 AM
Master Sun came to the U.S. copywrited the name and ****ed a lot of Master Wei's public students off by setting the standards for the quality and standardization of the system. Master Wei gave his park students all the vocabulary, but didn't teach them anything in the way of how these "magic words" are applied. Oooh you know that one of the words means grab...So what I can grab a pencil. You have to know how that relates to all of the information that you know. He listed all the footworks in BlackBelt magazine. That doesn't matter in the slightest. Those arent the secrets. The how, when, where and why are the secrets. To all these "authentic" 8 Step masters learking around spreading rumors. Go kick Master Sun's ass and I will be your dedicated student. The only person that learned anything close to Master Sun was Su Yu Tsang. For Master Wei park students = cash flow. He may have told them that they learned the whole system. What did he care? He was a famous fighter. He wasn't passing the system on to them and it didn't matter to him. Master Sundoesn't want the system to die out so he is actually teaching the how, why and where and not simply the vocabulary. People spreading this are A. Master Wei's angry park students
B. Defected Sifus that have shot themselves in the foot when they had a good thing going for them.
Master Sun is a rare individual. The sole inheritor of a complete fighting system. Unless you want to go to Australia (CLF Grandmaster/Inheritor?), your not going to find anything close.
To those that have shot yourselves in the foot. Better luck next life.
To angry park students it should be easy as pie for you to become sifus under Master Sun and learn more than you ever would have under Master Wei.
08-29-2000, 08:07 AM
-8StepStudent, just wondering if you know what these footwork and kicking techniques mean in your system.
You sure as hell don't, but he will if he becomes a Sifu. You will never know more than the vocabulary. If this is anyone that I know posting this, I don't mean anything personally, I just can't have you dragging others down for your mistakes. Best of luck to everybody
BTW Mantis your a cool guy and I looked up to you. I don't see how you were so easilly swayed by those park students. I don't know what went on, but if you left after seeing that list, I can't understand that. You had such a bright future ahead of you and to **** it all away over nussances. Your whole situation was bad, but that was then. Why are you trying to defame Master Sun for it? How can it possibly benefit you? Where are you going to learn the complete 8 Step system? Will Feng Wei Yi visit you in your dreams? Best of luck to you anyway and I hope I'm not coming accross as rude.
[This message has been edited by 8stepsifu (edited 08-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by 8stepsifu (edited 08-29-2000).]
Have any of you ever gone to Taiwan and met any of Wei Xiao-tang's other park students?
[This message has been edited by MIA (edited 08-29-2000).]
08-29-2000, 08:33 AM
According to an 8Step Tanglangquan practitioner I met in Taiwan, Wei Hsiao Tang had already set the standards for the systematization of 8 Step Tanglangquan in the 3 books that he wrote.
The question I asked 8StepStudent about the meaning of the footwork and kicking techniques I mentioned were legitimate since I am not an 8 Step Tanglangquan practitioner but wanted to know more about the system. If any of you cannot answer it, then fine.
08-29-2000, 09:21 AM
I can't answer that, but my Sifu can and he sure wouldn't tell you how they were done. You heard one thing, I heard another. We only know what we were told. Neither of us are omnicient. So if it was standardized whats the point? All I know is that it was standardized in the U.S. for public AND private students. Before there was no standardization for private students because there were only two. Su Yu Tsang and Master Sun. Su Yu Tsang had other Masters and Master Wei wanted him to pick one. Su Yu Tsang didn't wan't to so he was left with what he had(quite a bit) Master Sun was talented and the system was passed on to him.
08-29-2000, 10:22 AM
Like 8StepSifu said I know the names of the footworks, because they're listed in magazines, but how to do them... I haven't the slightest clue. Also like 8StepSifu said... "If you can defeat Master Sun... I'll be your student then," but I don't even see that happening.
[This message has been edited by 8StepStudent (edited 08-30-2000).]
08-29-2000, 10:37 AM
This is one thing that holds back kung fu....All the dam polotics.. just because someone claims lineage it doesnt mean they are all that good.. Master sun is good and can fight and his gung fu is top notch as far as being system holder I have no clue.. does it really matter.. I say no I rather learn from someone who can use there kung fu then someone who claism lineage and cant use what they have been taught or can not teach what they have been taught...
08-29-2000, 11:08 AM
true dat Mantis7, but being the system inheritor means that you have unparralleled expertice and ability. I agree..all this B.S. is holding us back. Why do you think the air headed worthless shopping mall arts are popping up accross america? If there are any other 8 Step Sifus in Taiwan then I have more in common with them than I do TKD. Just Imagine if all the PM schools got together on one big campaign of our system...What could compare? WHo could compete? We'd spread our style accross the globe. But infighting is traditional, its been there and it will be there. It's the fault of everyone who says,"were cool" myself included.
By not exalting the talented you will cause the peple to cease from rivalry and contention. By not prizing goods hard to get, you will case the people to cease from robbing and stealing. By not displaying what is desirable, you will cause the people's hearts to remain undisturbed.
Therefore, the Sage's way of governing begins by
Empying the heart of desires
Filling the belly with food
Weakening the ambitions
Toughening the bones.
In this way he will cause the people to remain without knowlege, and without desire, and prevent the knowing ones from any ado.
Practice non ado and everything will be in order.
Master Sun is not a celebrity. He's the head of a relatively small (in numbers of practitioners) system compared to TKD or Karate. Since this has become the National Inquier, go fuss over a real celebrity and please leave us alone.
08-29-2000, 11:20 AM
AMEN TO THAT..
I shall dubb thee PREACHER 8
teach on PREACHER
lol Victor ( it is to true what you say )
All I can say is to all you people who dont know him, you find pleasure to disgrace his name because you are JEALOUS. http://22.214.171.124/forum/roundtable/tongue.gif
The man is awsome. Just keep it up and live in denial.
[This message has been edited by Tamoke (edited 08-31-2000).]
I am very sorry. I was not trying to put James Sun down in any way. I was hoping to get some answers, not start a fight.
If you want me to ask him I will. He is a very cool person and i would not be afraid to ask.
By the way how do you guys post pictures. i have a jpg pic on a web page and i am trying to post it.
08-30-2000, 01:26 AM
Mantis don't back down. Stick to your guns. What you say is very true. James Sun is in it for the money. When you take a man who comes from a third world country, make him a martial artest then BOOM, I smell money. He can say what he wants and people wiil beleave because of were he came from. Same thing happened in NY city with a man named Kau yau chong. He claims to be a temple deciple, but never ever trained in the temple? Same as Sun, Some showed him how to make money in the good old USofA and we all fell for it.
08-30-2000, 02:23 AM
Like Tamaoke says... You guys obliviously have no clue what you're talking about. Why don't you go talk to him first? I bet you haven't even met him... If such bashing goes on from people like word,6hmantis... I'll ban you people, because all you try and do it start fights, and that's not what this forum is for!
08-30-2000, 02:43 AM
Ban us for the truth? Sounds like the US government. All my claims can be backed up, if you are willing to open your eyes.
And I'll bet your Sifu is also in it for the money. Who isn't? If I had a complete system that I wanted to keep alive I shure wouldnt give it out for free. I'm guessing you would and you probably work for free. By the way Shyuns family was already wealthy before he came here. But i amsure you already knew that since you know it all. huh...
08-30-2000, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tamoke:
And I'll bet your Sifu is also in it for the money. Who isn't? If I had a complete system that I wanted to keep alive I shure wouldnt give it out for free. I'm guessing you would and you probably work for free. By the way Shyuns family was already wealthy before he came here. But i amsure you already knew that since you know it all. huh...[/quote]
I don't know about the Shyun family wealth, but each Sun (Shyun) member has to make it on their own. When I started James Sun in the early days, you could hardly say he was weathly. His wife and little kids would drop by the class after doing the laundry - They seemed more middle class to me. For a short time, he was even working in chinese martial arts movies. His brother came by to visit from Taiwan, and at that time he was a government official. The Sun family is connected to Sun, Yat-Sen.
In the "old days", training was one on one with Sifu, and we had more of an opportunity to talk and learn from Sifu Sun individually. There was definitely not a money being made by him. He was often late from working his daytime job. Sometime, classes were cancelled without notice because he could not make it into the City in time. The first generation was students were mainly teens and they were not serious. They were spoiled and preferred to watch the big RCA color tv in the meeting room. The so-called sifu program was in its initial phase. Everyone started to receive xerox copies of training levels.
James Sun IS a younger disciple compared with his sihings (They are a lot older in age [and a few are in the bayarea] and the word around Chinatown w/some of his sihings is that they remember him as a young upstart kid) While they may not remember/recognize if he is the inheritor of Wei, Tsao-Tang's original 8 Steps PM, they do recall him as THE disciple that was specifically training to take on challenges for his sifu and his school. Wei, Tsao-Tang eventually would take him to other schools to visit and to have him cross hands with their students. Sifu Sun told me that he made it a point to visit all the local schools for a visit (as tradition courtesy and because he was opening up his school), and asked to have friendly cross hands with the schools's instructors. That included even Hsu Chi, his classmate. Sifu Sun said, "No one ever took him up on his offer."
Why do you think, he created the Shyun 8 Step PM system? It was to deter criticism by his classmates, other MA who have seen the original 8 Steps, and the protect HIS system. James Sun may have been brash in his youth BUT he was always respectful of traditions and to his teacher. To say he knows a complete system is unlikely BUT he knows more than any other fellow classmates taught by the Grandmaster. His Tai Chi class was accelerated. Students would start pushing hands within three to six months - he knew a lot and at one time a famous Tai Chi practitioner from the Cheng, Man-Ching lineage visit to show off their skills. We were amazed at some of these people, but he would laugh and show his similar skills. Wow...you must be a Master of Tai Chi, we exclaimed. He demeanor turned serious and he would admonish us for that statement. He knew a lot, but was not master of that art because of he was not authorized/classified by his tai chi instructor. It was also the proper path to follow since Wei, Tsao-Tang was his teacher/master.
He made it a point to tell me long ago, that only he knew the all of the inheritor's five secret sets from Wei, Hsao-Tang. Some may know one or two, but no one actively teaching at that time period.
May be someone is ****ed about the sifu program (drop outs?!) How does the system deal with that? Are the dropouts absorbed back into the laymens'program. Are the traditional 8 steps peers outraged over the sifu programs? (How can someone buy a sifu certification?) Well... That is probably why James Sun developed the Shyun System out of respect for his teacher, classmates, and other MA who have seen the original 8 steps PM.
The Shyun System is a modification of original 8 steps meant for the US market. Sort of like market segmentation. He has added many items to his Shyun system and not to the original system out of respect to his teacher. The problem is that no one is sure what belongs to each system. When I inquired about what is "Pure 8 Steps", a respond was to move along if I could not stay on the thread's topic. Well... if I have this question, then you know others also would like to know.
The above is my opinion and info when I learnt ba bo tang long in the "old days" and the "old ways" from Sifu Sun, before the Shyun system. Good luck in your sifu program.
[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 08-30-2000).]
You may be true, but from what the schools history has taught me "They were a successful family, with a good deal of money and number of other resources that they could call upon". But i guess he didnt get any of that wealth.
molum_jr: You seem to know a few details that only someone from the 'early days' would know, such as that his brother trained in White Crane,etc(& there are hardly any original students left). For my information please, what 'district' in S.F. was the original training place(on 2nd floor-back in 1985) in the Chinese Community Center in? If you would answer this, I would like to correspond with you by private email.
Actually after looking more closly at your post, I can see that you might not have been at the original place, but at one of the storefront schools opened up a couple years later, but i would still be interested in corresponding with you.
A point of information: Master Su Yu Chang was Wei Hsiao Tang's long time student and was being groomed to inherit the system, but wanted to learn other systems, so went & studied with other people without Master Wei's permission(& behind his back), thereby causing himself to be 'disinherited' so to speak, Master Wei wanted someone who was completely dedicated to him & chose his youngest student Kwong Lung Shyun who had trained for 12 years with him in Master Wei's home. He personaly oversaw his training even to the point of acompanying & counseling him at some of the all Taiwan full contact tournaments in which Master Shyun placed first for a number of years. Having taken the young Shyun into his home in order to save him from a life threatining illness, was the first step in a relationship of trust which lasted til Master Wei's death, and upon that trust he formally passed the system to him.
When Master Su had his school in New York, he would teach some of the 8step forms, but upon talking with him & later several of his students, I was informed that they did not do any of the 8step two man drills & applications,etc, that we had learned from Master Shyun, & that he does not teach it in depth. As for the relationship between Master Shyun & Master Su, having met Master Su at a seminar in L.A that Master Shyun took me to as his assistant, from what I saw it was good. At that time, Master Su spoke only Chinese & Spanish, My Sifu introduced me to him & as I speak Spanish, we were able to hold a conversation. Years later in New York, he remembered me & spoke affectionately of Master Shyun as the 'young one' of the family, & invited me to train with them. This is my personal experience with these Masters, Its possible someone else has had a different experience than mine, I wonder from whom these people have gotten their information, personal, hearsay or otherwise?
Having also met Master Adam Hsu several times in the presence of Master Shyun, I never saw anything but cordiality. Also Adam Hsu only teaches the first 5 forms of 8step.
Also as we are in the United States, where guilt has to be proven, not innocence,
would anyone care to produce documentation of some of these negative claims? There seems to be enough documentation on the positive side around, but I'm open to seeing other peoples proof.
Tamoke, do you know molum_jr?
08-30-2000, 05:11 AM
Molemjr. If you fail your testing in the Sifu Program you simply retry. You can join the public program too, if the Sifu program is too hard. The Sifu program is very time intensive and draining and is simply too much for most people to handle. No one in the public program is mad at Sifu students. They work together and help one another. As for buying certificates...If I were even to suggest that to my sifu in a serious manner during my training, he would have had me doing an hour of push ups. I don't know if you came in contact with a crooked sifu, but in my experience being a sifu is not taken lightly. You can't buy a teaching certificate, because there are a committe of sifus from accross the country that test you. You get a teaching certificate that looks different from the sash testing and the Sifus have 5 gold mantises on their belt. If they have one mantis, they are a beginner and not qualified to teach unless it is under their Sifu.
I have a question for Mantis....how old is Master Sun? Give something to support these claims. Give some proof other than, "Word on the street is..." E-Mail me your conspiracy theory at firstname.lastname@example.org
btw 6Hmantis why should I trust anything you say when you obviously are more than one person on this post. Why dont I become "Pikachu the new member" to support my own claims?
08-30-2000, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1path:
[B For my information please, what 'district' in S.F. was the original training place(on 2nd floor-back in 1985) in the Chinese Community Center in? Tamoke, do you know molum_jr?
Classes were on the THIRD floor. Remember the gift shop on the ground level, the dark second floor after the first flight, and then the third floor. The custodian door was facing the glass door. I used to **** in the buckets because no one was there to open the doors for class. As you walked in the, secretary office w/xerox machine. Further in, to the left of the hallway, were the showers - a place ahead of its time /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The mats were hard japanese style and we broke the bannisters of the ballet class when we were doing leg stretches. We also broke a number of windows. The N Judah muni cars ran near by.
Not more much that I can say, except I do remember a young hispanic gentleman who was one of the first to enter the sifu program. Sifu got mad one day, when he ate peanuts prior to drinking that special powder mix of herbs and powdered milk. The young man was a former student of YC Wong...
Memory getting fuzzy, but if ba bo never expanded then we would have never had this round table forum. As for email - I do not participate that way (pet peeve concerning open forums). Plus I've been raked over the coals for speaking my mind on other individuals in the bayarea. So many people want to kick ass over speech...Sad. There is not much too more that I can say. It would be interesting to see if Sifu and the program becomes as large and influential as Chan Poi's Wah Lum Temple in Florida twenty years from now. By the way, do you know that Chan Poi started out here in SF in the early sixties?
Yes, it is interesting to note why all this noise after all these years w/ James Sun. In the old days, he checked in Wei, Hsao-Tang's village in China for any clues, MA relatives, or even Ba Bo MA - He didn't find anyone at that time. He really was concerned about preserving the art.
[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 08-31-2000).]
08-30-2000, 08:21 AM
Pika pika pi pikachuuu!
translated..."Right on 8Stepsifu!"
08-30-2000, 12:44 PM
molum is a pretty funny guy. I remember the post where he said something to the sort " They didn't believe William Fong to be a student of chui chuk kai. He looked like a **** ( even my HK standards)
How long did you train with William Fong for? If you don't mind me asking.
08-30-2000, 12:53 PM
Sorry to bother again. I heard that George Long learned some white crane for three months. After that he opened up a school in chinatown , SF. All the sifus in town knew he was a joke. George Long's students would often get together with Wong Jack Man's students to sparr after class. Did you hear about this too?
molum_jr: Quite right, the Third floor, & as my memory is also a bit hazy, I at least remember that the library/tv room was more or less straight on, small kitchen on the left, & do I recall small bedrooms on the right for visitors?. And glass doors on the ground floors. Anyway as to doing email, I can understand, I only talk with a few people in that manner such as tamoke, pete, etc., no point in getting into stuff with people who wont know what Im talking about.
Peter & his brother Johnny were already there when I joined(as a matter of fact they're the first ones Sifu had me sparr with), later Dean came in, and Ali; Wally & other kids started maybe in the summertime. I cant remember when Robert(from San Jose area)came in but he was with me up into 4th grade. I remember another guy who was also learning a bit of Tai Chi, cant remember his name, but he had a beard, I remember him because one time I knocked him out with an crossing leg-hook kick combo from the 9th set, & another time split his head open(accidentaly)with my elbow when he tried to throw me. Ah, his name was Michael, not the other Mike who was African American.
Y.C. Wong? No, although when I was really younger I had tried his school, you may be thinking of Y.C. Chiang(Kou Lien Ying's student) with whom I studied Guang-Ping Yang Tai-Chi. At any rate I am beginning to remmember other guys, such as the short Mexican guy named Miguel who was an auto mechanic from the East Bay. That was really a fun time, all that sparring, pushups, frog jumps & Sifu boiling the giant pots of Dit da jow in the kitchen. I particularly remember those big windows I would always want open from all the heat and sweat we would put out, and how we had to watch out that nobody would go flying out them when we would spar. As for the Mats they came a bit later, as I recall they were in the right hand room & the left hand room was just plain tile floor where that young girl would have her dance class & sometimes Sifu would bring Kung Fu movies & show them in there. I remember saying to Sifu when he first starting buying those mats (from Taiwan?) that he could just use gym mats cheaper(the tatamis cost $40 each), but he said these were the best & it turned out to be true because they were still using them on Noriega St when I left for the E. Coast.
As far as I know the only other person from that time that still is training or teaching besides myself is (Master)Dean in SF, I talk to Mike once in a while but he's not doing Mantis, the only time I see Sifu is when he comes out to NJ from So. Calif.
You have piqued my curiosity. If you talk to Master Sun, Dean, Tamoke, Pete, or even Sifu Jack in Sayreville, based on the info I have given you they will tell you who I am. Perhaps we may correspond at some later date. I like to follow some of the threads here from time to time but prefer a round about manner of coming in ommunication with people I dont already know.
Anyway, thanks for responding, talk to you later.
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