Where is the Flow

[Yoshiyahu]

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?

[AdrianK]

Everyone has their own sense of timing, and everyone is different in terms of how they think and feel. This translates into their fighting.

The "Flow" is just being able to properly time the next movement to achieve your next goal. To "Flow" just for the sake of flowing is counter productive.

Of course that being said, most of what you find on youtube is just utter trash.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is no "flow" in combat, not like the flow we see in static demos and training.
Broken rhythm is the "name of the game" in fighting.

[Hendrik]

There is no "flow" in combat, not like the flow we see in static demos and training.
Broken rhythm is the "name of the game" in fighting.



There always a "flow" needed in combat. Even at Broken rhythm.

[Yoshiyahu]

There is no "flow" in combat, not like the flow we see in static demos and training.
Broken rhythm is the "name of the game" in fighting.

What does Broken Rhythm mean? Please give details on how you stop flowing when your strike doesn't land or you get hit?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Its not about flowing. An opponent/aggressor will seldom provide you an opportunity to "flow". It is about fighting.

A safe training environment would be a great place to let loose your inhibitions and do whatever you feel resembles a state of flowing. However, the street is a more discerning environment, rarely allowing you to flow. It is about fighting.

Gung Fu can be like karate, or it can be like water. Whatever the expression, assessment is not a subjective experience i.e. how does it feel, how does it appear but is objective i.e. how effective was it?

Stop flowing, start fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There always a "flow" needed in combat. Even at Broken rhythm.

Symantics.
You know very well that when people think flow they think smooth and continous and that just isn't practical.


What does Broken Rhythm mean? Please give details on how you stop flowing when your strike doesn't land or you get hit?

Seriously?

[Yoshiyahu]

Its not about flowing. An opponent/aggressor will seldom provide you an opportunity to "flow". It is about fighting.

A safe training environment would be a great place to let loose your inhibitions and do whatever you feel resembles a state of flowing. However, the street is a more discerning environment, rarely allowing you to flow. It is about fighting.

Gung Fu can be like karate, or it can be like water. Whatever the expression, assessment is not a subjective experience i.e. how does it feel, how does it appear but is objective i.e. how effective was it?

Stop flowing, start fighting.

When you fight you typically are forced to flow. Thats why its so important to practice and learn flow. Real fights are not i hit, you block and you hit i block motions. Real fights are not rigid. They are continous motions of attacks. An over aggressive person will maul you down continously. The average thug or gangster will throw a non-stop barrage of punches at your head in a continous motion.

So if you practice rigid and static you will have a hard time applying your heart in a real situtation.


Sanjuro please answer my question Seriously!

[-木叶-]

The "Flow" is just being able to properly time the next movement to achieve your next goal. To "Flow" just for the sake of flowing is counter productive.


Very nice reply by AdrianK.

For me, to flow is 源源不絕如大海般波濤洶湧, relentless like the crashing waves
of the great ocean, it is also like blades of tall grass gracefully swaying in the wind, against the merciless beating of the storm.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very nice reply by AdrianK.

For me, to flow is 源源不絕如大海般波濤洶湧, relentless like the crashing waves
of the great ocean, it is also like blades of tall grass gracefully swaying in the wind, against the merciless beating of the storm.

Excellent reply...I will love to use it!

[Hendrik]

Symantics.
You know very well that when people think flow they think smooth and continous and that just isn't practical.

Yup.


What flow within the broken rythm?

[Hendrik]

Very nice reply by AdrianK.

For me, to flow is 源源不絕如大海般波濤洶湧, relentless like the crashing waves
of the great ocean, it is also like blades of tall grass gracefully swaying in the wind, against the merciless beating of the storm.



That is the reason you dont know what is a flow. You speak of ideas instead of reality.

[Lee Chiang Po]

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?


What you are seeing on the video is a person having to think of what to do next. Or in the least trying to make the transition from one technique to the next. In order to flow, you need to train and drill with another person, working with several techniques, one after another. This will train your flow so to speak. You do not need to use the entire system to fight. If you can learn a few good techniques and train to move from one to the next smoothly then you flow.

LCP

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mike Tyson used to KO people with one shot, sometimes in less than 1 minute.
Beautiful "flow" there.
:D

[Yoshiyahu]

What you are seeing on the video is a person having to think of what to do next. Or in the least trying to make the transition from one technique to the next. In order to flow, you need to train and drill with another person, working with several techniques, one after another. This will train your flow so to speak. You do not need to use the entire system to fight. If you can learn a few good techniques and train to move from one to the next smoothly then you flow.

LCP

Yes, But its about feeling. Its not about mere transition. You allow your opponent to lead you to openings. An you follow your opponents lead when fighting. The flow is continously following the WC principal of attack when you feel nothing, receive what comes and escort what goes. If you follow that principal with continous motion while following your opponent from what you feel when connected then you will flow. WC is about sticking, senstitivity and flow. No set techniques.

Mike Tyson used to KO people with one shot, sometimes in less than 1 minute.
Beautiful "flow" there.
:D

Well of course Mike Tyson punches had follow through and retraction. His punches were fluid and not rigid were they? And when Mike Tyson is engaging an opponent does he flow?

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;968942]Yes, But its about feeling. Its not about mere transition. You allow your opponent to lead you to openings. An you follow your opponents lead when fighting. The flow is continously following the WC principal of attack when you feel nothing, receive what comes and escort what goes. If you follow that principal with continous motion while following your opponent from what you feel when connected then you will flow. WC is about sticking, senstitivity and flow. No set techniques.


This is all true. Absolutely. But unless you have the complete command of your technique you can not make any of this yours. You can not flow what you do not have.

[Liddel]

You know very well that when people think flow they think smooth and continous and that just isn't practical.

Never seen Anderson silva ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

.

Never seen Anderson silva ?

Fluid and flow are not the same thing my brother :)
When most think flow they think of a continous flow of moves and techniques, this is best exemplified by American Kenpo.
Of course you will never see that flow in a real fight because the opponent not only moves and hist back (rather than just standing there) but because you actually have to hit hard enough to do damage and THAT, as physics tells us, disrupts the "flow".
Of course, to me, broken flow is still flow...

[Hardwork108]

.......
you actually have to hit hard enough to do damage and THAT, as physics tells us, disrupts the "flow".

You can flow within the disruption. In authentic kung fu terms one would use the mindset of just "being" in the flow. Of course, that is easier said than done. That is why REAL kung fu exponents are so difficult to find nowadays. However, I am aiming for this state of mind.



Of course, to me, broken flow is still flow...

To me broken flow is still a broken flow unless the more skilled kung fu exponent keeps flowing. ;)

[stonecrusher69]

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?

To me in order to have flow one must relax and not think only then can you flow.

[Liddel]

Fluid and flow are not the same thing my brother
When most think flow they think of a continous flow of moves and techniques, this is best exemplified by American Kenpo.
Of course you will never see that flow in a real fight because the opponent not only moves and hits back (rather than just standing there) but because you actually have to hit hard enough to do damage and THAT, as physics tells us, disrupts the "flow".
Of course, to me, broken flow is still flow...

That may sound fine on paper (or written in pixels) be we know that there are many elements of flow in fights hell IMO thats what combos are.... a literal translation of flow... not actions on a one by one basis but actions linked together, 2 3 4 or more.

If its broken by the opponent moving that doesnt mean the flow wasnt there, moreover two opponents can show elements of flow in attack at the same time in a fight.

It doesnt take a martial art expert to watch a begginer and an experienced boxer throw punches to see a difference in flow.

I understand its merely a difference in POV paul, but on this occasion it sees like your arguing semantics. Not that thats bad.

When most think flow they think of a continous flow of moves and techniques, this is best exemplified by American Kenpo.

anybody that thinks that hasnt fought IMO.

Fluid and flow are not the same thing my brother

im curious of your definition of the two ?

DREW

[Hardwork108]

To me in order to have flow one must relax and not think only then can you flow.

If "not thinking" was all one needed to flow then most of the people claiming kung fu expertise in this forum would be flowing like rivers...Lol. :p

Seriously though, you are on the right track. :)

[Pacman]

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?

good observation. wing chun should be relaxed and continuous.

when you see people do WC rigid like karate it is wrong. many do it

[Hardwork108]

good observation. wing chun should be relaxed and continuous.

when you see people do WC rigid like karate it is wrong. many do it

Agreed 100%!

People who do Wing Chun in a rigid way are not doing WC but rather pseudo-Wing Chun and have missed the point of this style's essence, including its internal aspects.

HW8

[k gledhill]

Goal ? to attack relentlessly with the given VT techniques / tactics/ concepts , that will allow this 'flowing attack'. ie attacking with little or no thought ..

IOW, if I asked you to attack me without stopping and I just randomly moved away from you with my hands behind my back , left then right , backwards, then forwards at you and back again trying to create space and or jam your working space by closing in on you....could you move and angle 'fluidly' and stick to me attacking and be within your optimal striking/kicking distances ? ( not sticking hands to me ;) )

Trying to use VT straight line arm strikes, low straight kicks , angling off line to my entry line relative to your left or right attacking actions suddenly...intuitively, with no thought, overwhelm the opponent or counter strike their attacking actions with striking ability incorporating combined strike defense ability/ tactical movement relative to the side they extend towards you.

And I'm not saying to chain punch relentlessly with a lead leg charge down the center either...:D

From my experience many get 'chi-sao heads', meaning they try to fight and flow in redundant drill positions.
They make up 'tricks' to deal with guys who attack them with a basic stance doing chi-sao, like applying pressure to one arm then striking from the other :D...it works in chi-sao BUT your not training to 'fight' like this, with 2 equally extended arms ...are you ?
The 'flow' thinking gets ingrained with too much chi-sao, and too little goal oriented focus.......iow too much feeling and forward pressure stuff, with wrist force , contact pressure is being developed rather than alignment, striking, etc... you over feel, over trap etc...you try to develop 'overflowing' actions, with little or no thought to developing your fighting attributes for NO pre contact... iow you get locked into doing chi-sao,...your beginning to feel like you have to make contact with the opponents arms to function yourself, to feel their intent before hitting them ;) iow your being misled to to try to chase an arm with your arm rather than use motion and angling while striking to the target......
Or your always standing in front of a guy with a basic stance like a grappler...you then try to apply grappling ideas to your 'flowing' and it gets further from VT as you do this...

Its not saying its a bad drill you have now created, just that your way off the development line of goals for VT fighters, who dont develop grappling , over feeling, hand chasing , over trapping actions...get bogged down in DRILLS simply because they havent got the systematic progression of the system goals before them...

the end goal...what is it? chi-sao drills ? to flow in a drill standing in a basic stance with 2 extended arms :D no...so what are you developing ...

[Hardwork108]

Goal ? to attack relentlessly with the given VT techniques / tactics/ concepts , that will allow this 'flowing attack'. ie attacking with little or no thought ..

IMHO you misunderstand what is meant by flow. It is not just about attacking with "little or no thought", which implies charging in like a mad man....;-)

It is not even about flowing exclusively when you are attacking.

IOW, if I asked you to attack me without stopping and I just randomly moved away from you with my hands behind my back , left then right , backwards,

Would you do that in a real fight?

Furthermore and at least the way I was taught, you don´t run after and chase an opponent who is running away from you or hopping around you. You flow when a bridge is made and finish the fight within a few moves!

I will add that your mindset will still be "flowing" even when your opponent is hopping around you.


then forwards at you and back again trying to create space and or jam your working space by closing in on you....could you move and angle 'fluidly' and stick to me attacking and be within your optimal striking/kicking distances ? ( not sticking hands to me ;) )

High level kung fu exponents will be able to "stick" to you even when they are not participating in sticky hands exercises. I.e. when you are in range and a bridge is established then there will be no hopping back out of range for you as you will be carrying a "passenger" back with you. ;)

Trying to use VT straight line arm strikes, low straight kicks , angling off line to my entry line relative to your left or right attacking actions suddenly...intuitively, with no thought, overwhelm the opponent or counter strike their attacking actions with striking ability incorporating combined strike defense ability/ tactical movement relative to the side they extend towards you.

And I'm not saying to chain punch relentlessly with a lead leg charge down the center either...:D

From my experience many get 'chi-sao heads', meaning they try to fight and flow in redundant drill positions.
They make up 'tricks' to deal with guys who attack them with a basic stance doing chi-sao, like applying pressure to one arm then striking from the other :D...it works in chi-sao BUT your not training to 'fight' like this, with 2 equally extended arms ...are you ?
The 'flow' thinking gets ingrained with too much chi-sao, and too little goal oriented focus.......iow too much feeling and forward pressure stuff, with wrist force , contact pressure is being developed rather than alignment, striking, etc... you over feel, over trap etc...you try to develop 'overflowing' actions, with little or no thought to developing your fighting attributes for NO pre contact... iow you get locked into doing chi-sao,...your beginning to feel like you have to make contact with the opponents arms to function yourself, to feel their intent before hitting them ;) iow your being misled to to try to chase an arm with your arm rather than use motion and angling while striking to the target......

I believe that one should not mix the principles involved with sparring scenarios as they were not meant for sparring scenarios. That is, when contact bridging is established during the encounter, within a few moves it is all over. You don´ t tap each other and hop around for another 15 minutes playing games. Having said that I am fully aware that a fight can last longer than that depending on skill levels of the participants and other factors.

However, the fact remains that flowing is and will be a required aspect of Wing Chun as well as many other kung fu styles and it involves more than just "attacking with no thought" ( which might get you killed...;)).


Or your always standing in front of a guy with a basic stance like a grappler...you then try to apply grappling ideas to your 'flowing' and it gets further from VT as you do this...

That is why you should use the "grappling ideas" that are already inside the wing chun style (not all lineages) and which incorporate this style's principles and concepts, including flowing. ;)

Its not saying its a bad drill you have now created, just that your way off the development line of goals for VT fighters, who dont develop grappling , over feeling, hand chasing , over trapping actions...get bogged down in DRILLS simply because they havent got the systematic progression of the system goals before them...

You are touching about bad wing chun teaching and I agree with you there. I am not sure wether I would agree with you on the type of "systematic progression" that you would follow but then we are all different.

the end goal...what is it? chi-sao drills ? to flow in a drill standing in a basic stance with 2 extended arms :D no...so what are you developing ...

And you are developing a CONSTANT state of flow, a mindset, if you will (among other things), not just flowing when you are doing this or that exercise. :)

HW8

[k gledhill]

I understand ....;) your working from YOUR understanding, not mine , thats all.

WSL would do this to guys, ask them to attack him and he might just move back, sideways etc.. to see what or how they kept up the attack or not...how good is the flow ?

Your mindless attack isnt my idea of mindless, so we cant really argue that one :D

anyway, its hard to write the ideas, Im sure many wont understand simply because they try to equate it with their current knowledge..high low middle :D My current thinking isnt like mainstream VT anymore. Whether you agree with me or not is besides the point, Im simply presenting another way of thinking, developed from A VT fighter, not a chi-saoer.

and developing a constant state of mind flow of what ? to use wrist force resting on a 'bridged ' arm ?
to flow in constant arm chasing ?

relativity ....Im trying to relate to gor sao, no pre-contact, not looking for arms , simply striking using the previous drills and training to simply hit someone with little or no thought to my own centerline defense ...not looking for a bridge to be made...not seeking out the 'arm' but circumnavigating it ...with motion, attack angles etc...movement, free moving in a flowing manner with the opponent ...

[Hardwork108]

I understand ....;) your working from YOUR understanding, not mine , thats all.
Thank god for that! ;)

WSL would do this to guys, ask them to attack him and he might just move back, sideways etc.. to see what or how they kept up the attack or not...how good is the flow ?

From an interview with WSL that I had read some time ago, he didn't seem to be into the internal side of WC. Is that true? If it is true, then his "ideas" regarding flow may have been on the primitive side as far as internal training is concerned.

My guess is that he was just testing the entry/closing the range techniques of his students.

Your mindless attack isnt my idea of mindless, so we cant really argue that one :D

It is not about it being your or my "mindless" attack. It is more about just being.. If you appreciate that then you will better understand where I am coming from.:)

anyway, its hard to write the ideas, Im sure many wont understand simply because they try to equate it with their current knowledge..high low middle :D

There are many levels of knowledge but only one truth regarding flow.

My current thinking isnt like mainstream VT anymore.

From what I have seen "mainstream" VT is just a business enterprise with many faces (logos), so nothing really to write home about.

Whether you agree with me or not is besides the point, Im simply presenting another way of thinking, developed from A VT fighter, not a chi-saoer.

All GENUINE VT/WC practitioners are fighters as it is a martial art. Of course that does not mean that all fighters are genuine Wing Chun exponents. Furthermore, whatever individual methods of training you choose the truth of the flow remains constant.

and developing a constant state of mind flow of what ? to use wrist force resting on a 'bridged ' arm ?

Perhaps you will appreciate flow when you manage to answer that question correctly yourself.

to flow in constant arm chasing ?
You are never meant to "chase" arms in genuine Wing Chun.

relativity ....Im trying to relate to gor sao, no pre-contact, not looking for arms , simply striking using the previous drills and training to simply hit someone with little or no thought to my own centerline defense ...not looking for a bridge to be made...not seeking out the 'arm' but circumnavigating it ...with motion, attack angles etc...movement, free moving in a flowing manner with the opponent ...

That sounds more like it for the most part but I am still guessing that you see flow in a different manner to me.:)

[k gledhill]

So you are into internal stuff...I will leave it there :D may the flow be with you. ;) and may your wrists find that sweet spot to bridge.

I will stick with WSL thinking...

[Hardwork108]

So you are into internal stuff...I will leave it there :D may the flow be with you. ;) and may your wrists find that sweet spot to bridge.

I will stick with WSL thinking...

Yes, I am "into internal stuff". The real power of kung fu comes from the "internal stuff". ;)

Good luck with your chosen path. :)

[Vankuen]

Man....I figured after another short hiatus that some of the lack of realism would pass and I could come back to making conversation about real fighting skills.

I see someone still thinks that they are doing the only real kung fu and that everyone who doesn't agree is just "undereducated". Has this person actually proven themselves in their banter yet? I'd bet no.

Talk is cheap. Put up or shut up.

[Hardwork108]

Man....I figured after another short hiatus that some of the lack of realism would pass and I could come back to making conversation about real fighting skills.

I see someone still thinks that they are doing the only real kung fu and that everyone who doesn't agree is just "undereducated". Has this person actually proven themselves in their banter yet? I'd bet no.

Talk is cheap. Put up or shut up.

I believe that you need to go to the main board and click on the MMA discussion threads where you will find people who possess similar thought patterns to yours.

Best of luck in your chosen path.:)

HW108

[Lee Chiang Po]

Internal or external, makes no difference. If you do not develop flow through drill and constant practice you can not flow. If you can, flow with what? I don't care how much internal chi kung you practice, it can not give you flow. You have to practice good old hard kung fu if you intend to have the skills to flow with. You can not train simple techniques alone and expect to flow from one technique to the next. You have to practice flowing from one technique to the next. You need to practice a long chain of techniques at one time. That way, no matter what technique you use, you will always have the next one to follow with without even having to think about it. That will enable you to flow your technique. This includes shifting, moving, advancing, and retreating as you flow from technique to the next. Good kung fu is not learned over night. You might learn lots of technique, or even just a few really good. But in order to make it all come together for you, you have to have these techniques down as solid as you can get them. You can drill several techniques with a partner. Several techniques that can be used following one another. This way, no matter what technique you open with, there will always be one that follows that one. You can have several more that follow that one in a chain. This gives you flow without having to stop and think about it. Then if something happens to break that chain, you can still stop the move and regroup so to speak. Then if you can bridge again you can flow one technique behind the next. No hand or arm chasing.
I remember once when someone on the forum posted a link to a utube video where a WC man was going to fight a MMA man. From what I could understand was that the WC man walked right into a kick and foot sweep, going down and getting whipped. He just walked right up to the guy, most likely expecting to cross arms or something. This is what Chi Sao will do to you if you let it. I was taught that chi sao is just a drill to gain feeling for your technique. Not for feeling your opponents intentions. This would only work if he allowed you to cross arms with him. It turns into a childs game if you let it.
The good thing about it all is that unless you go around looking for WC men to fight, you are not very likely to run up on one in the streets. So your flow can be sustained once you bridge, or enter, or whatever you want to call it, if your technique is strong. There is no magic behind it at all. Just good hard work and long hours of practice and drill.

LCP

[Hendrik]

I don't care how much internal chi kung you practice, it can not give you flow.

LCP



IMHO,

This is an over statement .

[Hardwork108]

Internal or external, makes no difference. If you do not develop flow through drill and constant practice you can not flow. If you can, flow with what? I don't care how much internal chi kung you practice, it can not give you flow. You have to practice good old hard kung fu if you intend to have the skills to flow with. You can not train simple techniques alone and expect to flow from one technique to the next. You have to practice flowing from one technique to the next. You need to practice a long chain of techniques at one time. That way, no matter what technique you use, you will always have the next one to follow [with without even having to think about it. That will enable you to flow your technique. This includes shifting, moving, advancing, and retreating as you flow from technique to the next. Good kung fu is not learned over night. You might learn lots of technique, or even just a few really good. But in order to make it all come together for you, you have to have these techniques down as solid as you can get them. You can drill several techniques with a partner. Several techniques that can be used following one another. This way, no matter what technique you open with, there will always be one that follows that one. You can have several more that follow that one in a chain. This gives you flow without having to stop and think about it. Then if something happens to break that chain, you can still stop the move and regroup so to speak. Then if you can bridge again you can flow one technique behind the next. No hand or arm chasing.

Good points. No one was saying that one should not practice the above drills. I t is a question of combining the internal with the external to create a balanced training. Furthermore, correct internal training will create the mindset that will enhance one's flowing abilities (among other things).


I remember once when someone on the forum posted a link to a utube video where a WC man was going to fight a MMA man. From what I could understand was that the WC man walked right into a kick and foot sweep,going down and getting whipped. He just walked right up to the guy, most likely expecting to cross arms or something.
That is strange because foot sweeps and kicks are part of the Wing Chun arsenal and are trained during hard sparring, at least the way I have trained WC. Furthermore, we are not taught to go out into battle "expecting" anything. To put it simply, you just "are" and you "receive" whatever comes your way. To fully appreciate and get into that mindset, you WILL need to balance your external WC with internal training.:)


This is what Chi Sao will do to you if you let it.
NO. That is what MacDonald Wing Chun training will do to you.

I was taught that chi sao is just a drill to gain feeling for your technique. Not for feeling your opponents intentions.

There is a lot more to chi sao training than feeling your own technique. I was taught that you will use your chi sao to feel your opponents' intentions. However, to really get the most out of this type of exercise,one should practice and fine-tune his skills for a long time.

This would only work if he allowed you to cross arms with him

At higher levels you will be able to feel his intentions from any kind of contact, not just by crossing hands/arms.

It turns into a childs game if you let it.
Agreed, but so does sparring, if you let it.

The good thing about it all is that unless you go around looking for WC men to fight, you are not very likely to run up on one in the streets. So your flow can be sustained once you bridge, or enter, or whatever you want to call it, if your technique is strong. There is no magic behind it at all. Just good hard work and long hours of practice and drill.

LCP

I agree to most of that but IMHO, if your technique is strong but your internal training is lacking then you will not do so well against someone whose technique is strong but his internal training is not lacking.

HW108

[Hendrik]

So what is the core key for having a flow?

[Hardwork108]

So what is the core key for having a flow?

An unattached mind, together with a good knowledge base of Wing Chun. I am not there yet but I am working on it.:)

[Vankuen]

Internal or external, makes no difference...

I don't care how much internal chi kung you practice, it can not give you flow...

Good kung fu is not learned over night...

There is no magic behind it at all. Just good hard work and long hours of practice and drill.


I think those above are the key take aways. To be succesful fighting--to flow--you need to practice your chosen art using whatever tools you want to gain skill in at near 100% capacity. Doesn't matter about dogma, semantics, internal, external, or any of the other political B.S.

If you have never used your "art" in such a capacity...nothing else will matter because no matter how flowing you are in practice you're still going to lose the fight.

[Hardwork108]

I think those above are the key take aways. To be succesful fighting--to flow--you need to practice your chosen art using whatever tools you want to gain skill in at near 100% capacity. Doesn't matter about dogma, semantics, internal, external, or any of the other political B.S.

If you have never used your "art" in such a capacity...nothing else will matter because no matter how flowing you are in practice you're still going to lose the fight.

"From one thing know ten thousand things." -( Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings )


HW8
PS. When you use a quote like the one above, you will do well to understand it profoundly first, before you display it to the world!

[Vankuen]

"From one thing know ten thousand things." -( Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings )


HW8
PS. When you use a quote like the one above, you will do well to understand it profoundly first, before you display it to the world!

And you would do well to understand fighting as it truly is in reality instead of spouting off things you obviously know nothing about--that being combat. If you did, you wouldn't be writing half the crap that you do.

You admit yourself that you're not a skilled fighter, and that you have so much to learn, and that you're striving to achieve the things you speak of; and yet you seem to have the "answer" that all gung fu practitioners looks for???

In what world is it possible to have the capacity to tell someone what they do or do not know or what is or is not true about combat when you admit to your very own lack of skill in application of those very concepts that you speak of?

You're the equivelent of swimming "instructor" who never learned to swim well themselves.

...

All this banter about fighting dogma and internal and external mean jack in the grand scheme of things. When you figure that out you'll be much better off. That said...don't respond to me any more unless you have something productive to discuss.

[Hardwork108]

And you would do well to understand fighting as it truly is in reality instead of spouting off things you obviously know nothing about--that being combat. If you did, you wouldn't be writing half the crap that you do.

You admit yourself that you're not a skilled fighter, and that you have so much to learn, and that you're striving to achieve the things you speak of; and yet you seem to have the "answer" that all gung fu practitioners looks for???

In what world is it possible to have the capacity to tell someone what they do or do not know or what is or is not true about combat when you admit to your very own lack of skill in application of those very concepts that you speak of?

You're the equivelent of swimming "instructor" who never learned to swim well themselves.

Clueless assumptions and remarks, as always.


All this banter about fighting dogma and internal and external mean jack in the grand scheme of things. When you figure that out you'll be much better off. That said...don't respond to me any more unless you have something productive to discuss.

Here is something productive for you:

"From one thing know ten thousand things." -( Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings )


Kind Regards,
HW8

PS. The MMA discussion boards are just a few clicks away.:)

[Vankuen]

Clueless assumptions and remarks, as always.
They're not assumptions when you type it.


Here is something productive for you:

"From one thing know ten thousand things." -( Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings )


Would you like to speak productively about this? Without googling, what do you think it means? Or rather, what does it mean to you?

Because if you did understand what it means as I do, then you wouldn't be nitpicking about all this various crap that you do.

In the book of five rings, he uses comparisons quite frequently in regards to comparing one with a larger number. For example Musashi discusses the ideal that the way of battle for man-to-man combat is the same as doing so for a battle on a grander scale. He also discusses the idea that if you beat one man you have beaten all men.

The idea behind it is that if you learn the fundamental principles of strategy and fighting, then you will be able to apply it in any situation of fighting. The basic principles will always be the same however its the various details that can change.

This is why you have people arguing about the exact method of doing this or that. This is why you have many methods and schools of fighting. Because people are getting so caught up in dogma and irrational ideology that they are getting in their own way in the path of true understanding when it comes to combat.

So in short...don't overly sweat the small stuff, learn the principles behind what it takes to be successful in fighting. If you concetrate solely on the techniques and not the strategies and principles, it's "like a finger pointing to the moon...don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory" -BL

.....

On a side note, if you look at things for what they are...you'd see that many of those wing chun axioms are being applied in the MMA fighting that you seem to loathe so much.

[Hardwork108]

They're not assumptions when you type it.
They are not?


Would you like to speak productively about this?

You mean more productively than your entry and the consequent contributions in this thread?

Without googling, what do you think it means?
The point here seems to be the stuff that you have missed regarding the meaning and the POTENTIAL of that statement.

Or rather, what does it mean to you?

What it means to anyone is different depending on the "one thing" that they know. That one thing that I am tending to know and better understand is the INTERNAL approach from which you will know a "ten thousand things". See, it is the same concept but a different level of thinking.

Because if you did understand what it means as I do, then you wouldn't be nitpicking about all this various crap that you do.

If I understood what it means as you do then I would be practicing kickboxing and MMA and not traditional kung fu and hence I would be missing the higher level (internal methods) of TCMAs.

In the book of five rings, he uses comparisons quite frequently in regards to comparing one with a larger number. For example Musashi discusses the ideal that the way of battle for man-to-man combat is the same as doing so for a battle on a grander scale. He also discusses the idea that if you beat one man you have beaten all men.
Interesting.

The idea behind it is that if you learn the fundamental principles of strategy and fighting, then you will be able to apply it in any situation of fighting. The basic principles will always be the same however its the various details that can change.
Are you familiar with all the basic principles of strategy and fighting? I am talking about the internal principles?

I remember that a long time ago you and I had a serious argument because you could not see any difference between the hard Shotokan style of blocking and the soft internal TCMA way of blocking that incorporates "sensitivity" and "listening" principles. Understanding such differences is a basic requirement but you failed to do so and I see that you are still at that level of knowledge where you don't comprehend the principles at play.

This, even after a fair explanation by Taai Gihk Yahn who seems to be someone you get along with in this forum and who happens to be a person who "hangs out" with a few of you "MMA is best" lot.

That is why your "one thing" from which you will learn "10 thousand" things is quite different from my "one thing".;)

This is why you have people arguing about the exact method of doing this or that.

That is because there are many ways and "exact methods" to do the same thing. However, the internal goal remains the same.

This is why you have many methods and schools of fighting. Because people are getting so caught up in dogma and irrational ideology that they are getting in their own way in the path of true understanding when it comes to combat.

I would suggest that you go back and research into what I told you about the internal way of dealing with an attack and the external Shotokan way (just an example), then come back when you understand the difference. This will help you understand my "irrational ideology"!

So in short...don't overly sweat the small stuff,

Thank you Grand Master Vankuen but IMHO you are the one who is sweating on the small stuff by keeping your training purely external.


learn the principles behind what it takes to be successful in fighting.

I believe that all genuine kung fu exponents do that, but it seems that some of the principles we use are not understood by people who do not practice authentic kung fu, but train a hybrid of MMA and insist on calling it "improved kung fu".


If you concetrate solely on the techniques and not the strategies and principles, it's "like a finger pointing to the moon...don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory" -BL
IMHO, you are not only missing the moon but also the sky, regarding the INTERNAL kung fu prinicples involved. I am at the same time guessing that your MMA and kickboxing skills are very good but unfortunately for you, that does not enable you to make educated comments on traditional kung fu training and principles.

.....
On a side note, if you look at things for what they are...you'd see that many of those wing chun axioms are being applied in the MMA fighting that you seem to loathe so much.

If you look carefully enough then you might even see Tai Ji axioms in MMA but that does not make what th8ey do tai chi nor Wing Chun. You seem to be incapable of going beyond scratching the surface of many kung fu prinicples, but I guess we are all different.

By the way, I only have problems with MMA-ists when they put the kung fu or "improved kung fu" label on what they do.

You, Van Kuen are a MMA-ist and you are probable good at it but don't think that your MMA knowledge gives you the right to put down traditional kung fu practice and principles that you don't understand. That attitude is disrespectful to many actual kung fu practioners, including the few genuine sifus who post here.

HW

[Vankuen]

They are not?

Not when you're the one writing it

What it means to anyone is different depending on the "one thing" that they know. That one thing that I am tending to know and better understand is the INTERNAL approach from which you will know a "ten thousand things". See, it is the same concept but a different level of thinking.

You're taking the quote too literally. It can be applied to a great number of things in life, thats true. But in the context of fighting--which is the activity we're all training for--the principles are the same regardless of the method of training that you use. It doesn't matter what weapon you use...if you don't understand the basic strategy and principles of fighting, you will never win the battle. That's the point where you and I are not having a meeting of the minds

The quote implies that there is a universal and fundamental way of going about fighting, and that if you understand that...then no matter who or how many you battle you'll be able to come out the victor. It has nothing to do with kickboxing or mma as you've put it.

You also keep mentioning internal this and that...and again that's besides the point. That seems to be your angle for everything to try and make yourself sound like some esoteric, all-knowing, "only real" kung fu guy on this forum. Lets keep it on target shall we? Do you think that being able to "flow" (keeping in context of this thread) will in some way allow you to win the battle?

As far as our past conversations, your episodic memory serves you incorrectly, but then again your comprehension of what was being said at that time did as well. The only person who was confused was you; and believe me, it wasn't that serious.

It also seems that you're still discussing things at a technique level...which I am not. So there's that. I don't care how you decide to deal with an attack, because that's not what I was talking about in my previous post, and that's not what the quote was talking about. Additionally, your continual comments on labels and real kung fu people is getting old...not to mention that no one even remotely was having a conversation about that. No one is calling what they do anything other than what it is.

That last bit about seeing the same principles across the MMA arena wasn't to say that it's "kung fu" or "tai chi"...it was to show you that labels are just that...labels. Fighting is fighting is fighting is fighting. It doesn't matter what you call it. You train to develop certain skill sets to use as tools in battle combined with principles and a strategy that are fundamental to combat in a universal manner.

You, Van Kuen are a MMA-ist and you are probable good at it but don't think that your MMA knowledge gives you the right to put down traditional kung fu practice and principles that you don't understand. That attitude is disrespectful to many actual kung fu practioners, including the few genuine sifus who post here.

I have always been a mixed martial artist. I was a mixed martial artist before the buzzword became popularized. Just like many martial artists before the 20th century when dogma wasn't an issue, but survival was. However, that doesn't mean my understanding of the various arts I've learned is lackluster. When you understand something at its core...when finally you get it....you see things from a much broader perspective and not from a particular viewpoint like "internal" or "externa....l" or "karate" vs "kung fu" vs "BJJ" vs. "insert style here". Because when you actually engage in combat, you will understand things from a greater perspective. Things become pragmatic in nature instead of theoretical. Skills are developed that can actually be used against resisting opponents, and you no longer have to practice the same form for 40 years to "learn the secret of the technique".

......

Getting back the actual thread post...flowing comes from hard work and training and knowing your craft well enough to perform it in such a way that it becomes instinctive. That said, I have yet to see a "fight" that shows two people flowing in technique back and forth that you'd see in a movie or demo. Because in reality it doesn't happen that way.

You can have fluid fighters...but not fluid fights.

[Hardwork108]

They are not?

Not when you're the one writing it

What it means to anyone is different depending on the "one thing" that they know. That one thing that I am tending to know and better understand is the INTERNAL approach from which you will know a "ten thousand things". See, it is the same concept but a different level of thinking.

You're taking the quote too literally. It can be applied to a great number of things in life, thats true. But in the context of fighting--which is the activity we're all training for--the principles are the same regardless of the method of training that you use. It doesn't matter what weapon you use...if you don't understand the basic strategy and principles of fighting, you will never win the battle. That's the point where you and I are not having a meeting of the minds

The quote implies that there is a universal and fundamental way of going about fighting, and that if you understand that...then no matter who or how many you battle you'll be able to come out the victor. It has nothing to do with kickboxing or mma as you've put it.

You also keep mentioning internal this and that...and again that's besides the point. That seems to be your angle for everything to try and make yourself sound like some esoteric, all-knowing, "only real" kung fu guy on this forum. Lets keep it on target shall we? Do you think that being able to "flow" (keeping in context of this thread) will in some way allow you to win the battle?

As far as our past conversations, your episodic memory serves you incorrectly, but then again your comprehension of what was being said at that time did as well. The only person who was confused was you; and believe me, it wasn't that serious.

It also seems that you're still discussing things at a technique level...which I am not. So there's that. I don't care how you decide to deal with an attack, because that's not what I was talking about in my previous post, and that's not what the quote was talking about. Additionally, your continual comments on labels and real kung fu people is getting old...not to mention that no one even remotely was having a conversation about that. No one is calling what they do anything other than what it is.

That last bit about seeing the same principles across the MMA arena wasn't to say that it's "kung fu" or "tai chi"...it was to show you that labels are just that...labels. Fighting is fighting is fighting is fighting. It doesn't matter what you call it. You train to develop certain skill sets to use as tools in battle combined with principles and a strategy that are fundamental to combat in a universal manner.

You, Van Kuen are a MMA-ist and you are probable good at it but don't think that your MMA knowledge gives you the right to put down traditional kung fu practice and principles that you don't understand. That attitude is disrespectful to many actual kung fu practioners, including the few genuine sifus who post here.

I have always been a mixed martial artist. I was a mixed martial artist before the buzzword became popularized. Just like many martial artists before the 20th century when dogma wasn't an issue, but survival was. However, that doesn't mean my understanding of the various arts I've learned is lackluster. When you understand something at its core...when finally you get it....you see things from a much broader perspective and not from a particular viewpoint like "internal" or "external" or "karate" vs "kung fu" vs "BJJ" vs. "insert style here". Because when you actually engage in combat, you will understand things from a greater perspective. Things become pragmatic in nature instead of theoretical. Skills are developed that can actually be used against resisting opponents, and you no longer have to practice the same form for 40 years to "learn the secret of the technique".

The fact that you did not see the seriousness of the contrast between an internal TCMA way of dealing with an attack and the external shotokan way only shows that your understanding of internals is below a basic level. You were cluelessly tripping over your tongue all over the place. For you, wether it was Shotokan or internal TCMA, made no difference as you were unable to comprehend the difference in principles involved. Taai Gihk Yahn (in his unique way:D:D) attempted to explain it to you but you still did not understand, and to this day you are riding your "one eyed horse" in circles.

In short, your door to understanding an extremely fundamental aspect of internal TCMA practice is closed and the person who keeps that door closed is YOU!


So:

"From one thing know ten thousand things." -( Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings )

Choose your "one thing" carefully. :)

[Vankuen]

The fact that you did not see the seriousness of the contrast between an internal TCMA way of dealing with an attack and the external shotokan way only shows that your understanding of internals is below a basic level. You were cluelessly tripping over your tongue all over the place. For you, wether it was Shotokan or internal TCMA, made no difference as you were unable to comprehend the difference in principles involved. Taai Gihk Yahn (in his unique way;)) attempted to explain it to you but you still did not understand, and to this day you are riding your "one eyed horse" in circles.

In short, your door to understanding an extremely fundamental aspect of internal TCMA practice is closed and the person who keeps that door closed is YOU!


So:

"From one thing know ten thousand things." -( Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings )

Choose your "one thing" carefully. :)

Man you're a piece of...work. I was talking about the seriousness of the conversation relative to real life--its the internet after all--if thought it that serious than you need some help; and I'll take that overall response of yours as you not being able to comprehend anything written there...nor you being able to work in present of the conversation.

If anyone cared they could read the entire previous converstations between us they're all out there...not that anyone cares about ****ing matches. Would you care to still live in the past or in the present?

How is what I highlighted in LCP's post not a key take-away? Do you feel that labels, flowing, or anything like that matters in the totality of what is combat?

[Hardwork108]

Man you're a piece of...work.

Thank you. That is very kind of you. I always knew that there was something special about me but couldn't put my finger on it. Now I know and all thanks to Grand Master Vankuen.


I was talking about the seriousness of the conversation relative to real life

Any conversation regarding valid kung fu concepts is serious relative to real life!

--its the internet after all--if thought it that serious than you need some help;

I need some help that will prevent me from responding to posts by clueless "kung fu" warriors who come into the internet and make uninformed and ignorant comments about the TCMAs.

and I'll take that overall response of yours as you not being able to comprehend anything written there...

I would comprehend it if it was relevant to this thread and the art of Wing Chun kung fu. However, as I indicated before your "knowledge" and your training approach are more suited to the MMA forums.

nor you being able to work in present of the conversation.
The present is connected to the past!

It seems that your understanding of the internals has not evolved from the past either even when I did my best to explain it to you in a previous "encounter" not to mention a clear explanation by Taai Gihk Yahn!

Furthermore, your entry into this thread had "past" baggage written all over it.

If anyone cared they could read the entire previous converstations between us

I am sure those who cared to enhance their knowledge of kung fu's internal principles did read it and took away some useful knowledge when that particular thread was hot.

they're all out there...not that anyone cares about ****ing matches.
It was not about any "matches", it was about valid kung fu principles!

Would you care to still live in the past or in the present?
Past is connected to the present, hence your attitude towards me.

How is what I highlighted in LCP's post not a key take-away? Do you feel that labels, flowing, or anything like that matters in the totality of what is combat?

Flowing matters if you know how to flow! Otherwise you may need to use more "primitive" tactics ;)

[Vankuen]

I must admit that its funny that you thought you were important enough for that first post to be about you. However since I just gave a description and not a name you apparently think of yourself in such a way. Wait, now that I think of it...my second post in this thread wasn't directed towards you either! Hmmm....

To your point, yes--the past is connected to the present; but living in the past dilutes the present and robs you of the future. Especially when your recollection of it is so flawed.

I can see its going to be pointless to even try to move on...because you're incapable of doing so. Tit for tat, tit for tat. It shows your lack of maturity and continued sense of inadaquacy. Its a good thing that you practice everything internally, because you've got a lot of internal things you need to work on. Namely the psychological ones.

Have a great day and don't forget to do your INTERNAL CHIN UPS!

[Hardwork108]

I must admit that its funny that you thought you were important enough for that first post to be about you. [ However since I just gave a description and not a name you apparently think of yourself in such a way. Wait, now that I think of it...my second post in this thread wasn't directed towards you either! Hmmm....


You can pretend all you want but you have put your foot in it (yet again).

To your point, yes--the past is connected to the present; but living in the past dilutes the present and robs you of the future.
The past is connected to the future in that you must learn from past mistakes and experiences so that you arrive to the present in a more "evolved" manner.

This you have clearly failed to do as you have learned absolutely nothing from our past discussion about various internal principles in dealing with force (attack) as compared to an external way of defending, where the example of Shotokan karate was used.


Especially when your recollection of it is so flawed.

I remember it as clear as it was yesterday. Your cluelessness and confusion even surprised me!

I can see its going to be pointless to even try to move on...

It took you long enough to realize this. I could have told you that after reading your first post!

because you're incapable of doing so.

Move on to WHAT? You don't believe in internal kung fu training; you are actually a MMA practitioner and you came into a Wing Chun thread which was discussing a valid principle and said that flowing does not matter or is not needed. So where do you want to "move on" from there?

That is why I told you to go to the MMA boards. There you could tell everyone that flowing was useless and all of you could MOVE ON to some other MMA related topic.

What are we supposed to discuss with someone like you in a thread that is about flowing? Where to buy punch bags, perhaps? The greatness of BJJ? Or the latest UFC results?


Tit for tat, tit for tat. It shows your lack of maturity and continued sense of inadaquacy. Its a good thing that you practice everything internally,

All of my comments above show and have proven your lack of maturity, not mine, for entering a thread where you had no hope of contributing anything!!!


because you've got a lot of internal things you need to work on.

Correct. I need to relax my breathing more and to calm my mind as well so that I can improve my internal skills. Thank you for that "input".


Namely the psychological ones.


I guess you need some psychological input for internal training, so you got that right, even if it was by accident, Lol.

Have a great day
Actually, it is night time where I live (back to guessing wrong, I see).


and don't forget to do your INTERNAL CHIN UPS!
Sounds interesting. Can you explain and tell us all what internal chin ups are all about? LOL.

HW8

[Lee Chiang Po]

IMHO,

This is an over statement .


This might be true, Hendrik. However, I did go on to further explain that comment. You have to have Wing Chun before you can develop internal WingChun. Simply that. Once you have good flowing wing chun then you can develop your internal aspects. Flowing is a created habit. You have to have your skills trained to flow from one technique to the next. Now, internal strength will follow to some extent, and with time you can possibly develop that into greater strength. However, you will not project this Chi out the end of your hands to strike an opponent. You will strike that opponent with the hand that is driven by Chi.
State of mind comes well into play here. It might even be a good part of internal Kung Fu. When one has to perform an act of violence, either in attacking or defending, he has to be in a particular state of mind. I can only speak of myself. Let me give you an example. Back when I first came home from Vietnam, I took a job with Gerber Baby Foods. I worked the graveyard shift so that I could work other jobs during the day. One day I filled in for another fellow, and I had to go up into the attic we called it and box up some jars and sweep the area. Someone had laid a couple of broken down boxes over a square hole in the floor. I walked out across it and fell right through the hole. I struck my face when going through, but even though I know it hurt, I did not think about it. I immediately realized that I was falling. 32 feet to a concrete and tile floor. I could not panic and start screaming or grabbing at stuff. I had to try to use my mind to help myself. I had to physically shove myself to one side to avoid landing on some upright pipes, and I physically twisted myself to strike on my back. I tucked my head and used arms and feet to break the fall. It hurt really bad. I lost consciousness several times. Every time I passed out I took a breath, then woke up and could not breath again. This lasted a while and I felt that I would certainly die. I had deep bruises from neck to feet and both arms, but I suffered no internal injury or broken bones. A man had fallen from the stairs leading up there a couple of years earlier and died on impact. He only fell about 20 feet. My Jujitsu training was what I used, but my frame of mind saved me. You have to have the ability to concentrate on whatever it is that you do, and you can not let emotion get involved. Be afraid later, stay alive now.

LCP

[Vankuen]

Move on to WHAT? You don't believe in internal kung fu training; you are actually a MMA practitioner and you came into a Wing Chun thread which was discussing a valid principle and said that flowing does not matter or is not needed. So where do you want to "move on" from there?

That is why I told you to go to the MMA boards. There you could tell everyone that flowing was useless and all of you could MOVE ON to some other MMA related topic.

What are we supposed to discuss with someone like you in a thread that is about flowing? Where to buy punch bags, perhaps? The greatness of BJJ? Or the latest UFC results?


I'm going to pretend for a moment that you're an adult and will reply in a coherent paragraph instead of your grade school method of tit for tat. You're repeating what I've written incorrectly. This is the same stuff you pulled in the last "conversation" we had that you like bringing up so much...what you fail to realize is that just because you can't read doesn't mean that others can't. Restating what I say incorrectly doesn't make you sound any smarter. It didn't then and it doesn't now.

Here's what was really said in my post responding to LEE CHIANG PO.

I think those above are the key take aways. To be succesful fighting--to flow--you need to practice your chosen art using whatever tools you want to gain skill in at near 100% capacity. Doesn't matter about dogma, semantics, internal, external, or any of the other political B.S.

If you have never used your "art" in such a capacity...nothing else will matter because no matter how flowing you are in practice you're still going to lose the fight.

So lets elaborate for the feeble minded. The first part states what's required in general to gain the fluidy in REAL combat. The second part means that if you never engage in combat (or the closest thing to it feasible) then even if you "flow" during "practice" it won't matter...because you more than likely will lose the fight anyway. So please show me where I said it wasn't needed? Oh wait...you can't.

I see you're still applying your internal label on every other sentence as well. Do you realize that it qualifies none of your statements? It adds just about as much legitimacy to your training method as sticking the word "Shaolin" in front of it.

Now...lets see if you can be a big-boy now and continue with the subject at hand. If you disagree with my post that I wrote to LEE CHIANG PO so be it-- dispute it for what it is not for what you think of me personally. Ad Hominem attacks do nothing to further your viewpoints.

I've got my fingers crossed for you...

[Hardwork108]

I'm going to pretend for a moment that you're an adult and will reply in a coherent paragraph instead of your grade school method of tit for tat.

You mean that you have gone beyond "pretending" that you practice authentic kung fu.


You're repeating what I've written incorrectly.
No, you are misunderstanding because the subject matter is not familiar to you!


This is the same stuff you pulled in the last "conversation" we had that you like bringing up so much...
You mean the one where you more or less said that a block was a block and that there was no difference between internal TCMA way and the Shotokan way (ignoring the principles of "sensitivity", "listening" and sticking, among other things)? LOL.

what you fail to realize is that just because you can't read doesn't mean that others can't.
Well last time, Taai Gihk Yahn who can read (and probably better than both of us) very well came into the discussion and gave some facts that should have been useful to you, but then perhaps you are the one who can't read or comprehend the higher aspects of kung fu training?


Restating what I say incorrectly doesn't make you sound any smarter. It didn't then and it doesn't now.

It is not about who is trying to be smarter, it is about who is clueless about the internal aspects of kung fu training and I am afraid that you have already won that honor.

Here's what was really said in my post responding to LEE CHIANG PO.

Lets have a look.

I think those above are the key take aways. To be succesful fighting--to flow--you need to practice your chosen art using whatever tools you want to gain skill in at near 100% capacity.
Fair enough, even though training kung fu art 100% capacity all the time can be counter productive.

Furthermore, many arts flow once the exponents master some basic skills and so on. I am talking about western boxing, kickboxing and even tennis.;)

But flowing in kung fu using the internal approach has a deeper level.


Doesn't matter about dogma, semantics, internal, external, or any of the other political B.S.

And that is where you shoot yourself in the foot!

What did you just say? "it doesn't matter.....internal, external....."????

You and I are not talking about the same flow here!

If you have never used your "art" in such a capacity...nothing else will matter because no matter how flowing you are in practice you're still going to lose the fight.

[You are making assumptions there about other people's training.]

I got news for you. The first step of being flowing in the fight is to get it right in practice and more importantly to have the CORRECT MINDSET which you don't only get from external practice but also with INTERNAL PRACTICE - which is something that you don't even believe in, let alone understand it!!!

So I guess if you don't believe that the internal aspect of flowing exists then you don't believe that it will work, nor that it is needed. YES OR NO?

You see, if you are missing the internal aspect of Wing Chun training then you are not really training the full art but a pseudo version mixed with all the other stuff you cross train in.

The type of flow that you talk about is more relevant in an MMA forum (even a tennis forum)than in a kung fu forum when we try to touch upon the deeper training aspects.

Figure out those last few sentences and then perhaps you will understand the internal aspect slightly more than you understand it now. You will also appreciate why I did not have to read any of your remarks to the other posters to come to the conclusion that the deeper level of what is being discussed here would only be seen as BS by you.



So lets elaborate for the feeble minded.
Yes, do keep elaborating to yourself.

The first part states what's required in general to gain the fluidy in REAL combat.
Because we all know that traditional holistic kung fu training does not prepare you for real combat, as it is designed for pillow fighting only.:rolleyes:

Look Vankuen, all real kung fu trains for real combat!!!!


The second part means that if you never engage in combat (or the closest thing to it feasible) then even if you "flow" during "practice" it won't matter...because you more than likely will lose the fight anyway.
That is an incorrect assumption to start with. Why do you MMA-ists assume that kung fu exponents do not train for combat. Let me re-state, authentic kung fu trains you for combat and all of the exercises such as chi sao, IP and so on play their part.


So please show me where I said it wasn't needed? Oh wait...you can't.
You implied right there. First you did not understand the level of flowing that authentic kung fu training encompasses (for which the interna approach is FUNDAMENTAL, therefore, BS in your eyes) and then you said that inspite of that you would probably loose the fight.

Anyway, how could you support the importance of flow when you did not know the type of flow that was being discussed?

All MA-ists flow!! All tennis players flow.....and that is the flow that you assumed when you entered this thread. We are talking beyond that kind of flow, Vankuen, if you haven't seen that after your years of training in MAs then you are not likely to See it now!

The simple fact is that you see the Internals as BS and as a result you see the internal training regarding flowing as BS as well. See where I am coming from?

So I suggest you take your understanding of external flow to an MMA forum as even there it will make for a good discussion.


I see you're still applying your internal label on every other sentence as well. Do you realize that it qualifies none of your statements?

I realize that it does not "qualify" my sentences to the clueless...that is for sure. For you the internal training is BS and that is your limit!

Also, many practice Wing Chun as an internal art. That might explain the emphasis on the internals and the use of the "internal label in every other sentence"!

It adds just about as much legitimacy to your training method as sticking the word "Shaolin" in front of it.
For you to see legitimacy, you would have to first have the capacity to recognize it!

Now...lets see if you can be a big-boy now and continue with the subject at hand.
I was doing fine with the subject at hand before your memorable entry into this thread!



If you disagree with my post that I wrote to LEE CHIANG PO so be it-- dispute it for what it is not for what you think of me personally.

As you will know by now, I have done exactly that!


Ad Hominem attacks do nothing to further your viewpoints.
It is not about my view points, it is about your lack of comprehension regarding the depth of the subject being discussed.

By the way, for Ad Homimem attacks check your own first post in this thread.

I've got my fingers crossed for you...

You are better off sitting on the ground with your legs crossed. If you do it correctly then it might do your dan tien some good.;)

HW8

[Vankuen]

When i see alot of WC on youtube and at kwoons it is rigid and hard. The motion has alot of stops and disconnect with in them. Where is the continous motion and flow. Should WC look more like basic Karate? Or should be flowing like a crane. Flow is like water which goes around force or an obstruction to find an opening instead of opposing force with brute strength?

Where is the flow?

What is flow to you?

OK....so lets take a look at the OP questions again.

He's sees a lot of physical discord on youtube and in his school. Lot's of stopping and going and so forth. He wonders why there is not a continuous motion of movement. He wonders if wing chun is supposed to look rigid or flowing. I can infer from this that flowing to him means that it is something visual--something that can be seen with the naked eye. He wants to know essentially why wing chun doesn't look like it does when it's demo'd or when you see it on movies.

The obvious answer is that wing chun is supposed to flow. The general principle behind this is the deflection and/or redirection of energy produced by incoming forces. You do this by using soft and relaxed strength, only noticeably tensing the muscle at moments of impact when you strike (because you still must be forceful when applying power).

Now take the wing chun maxim of accepting what comes, sending off what retreats and rushing in at a loss of contact. If someone takes this principle into application, what we'd see is a wing chun person being attacked...the force would be redirected and the wing chun person pre-emptively hitting first (another maxim). From there the wing chun man would continue the attack on the rotational axis of the opponent (again, another maxim)--naturally the opponent would backing away and trying to regroup from this flurry of attacks, whereby the loss of contact would be followed by the wing chun man shooting in (biu ma perhaps) to regain a bridge and continue the process. If/when the opponent goes to attack again the process would then run full circle and start over.

Notice that the above scenario follows the basic principles and maxims of wing chun. In theory it should be flowing, and continuous, and to be honest should end quite quickly. It is an ideal theoretical scenerio.

Here's the problem with that theory: In real life adrenalin rushes in. Fine movements go out the window. The calmness of the mind is now clouded by the danger of the real-world situation. VERY few people perform as well or as flowing as they did in training because the human processes are one of your biggest inhibitors of the said flow. However the other is (most importantly)...people fight back!!!

Now you've got someone disrupting your flow, countering what you're doing, snuffing out your chain punches, grabbing your legs, using unorthodox movements that you've never come across, using techniques you've never seen before or practiced against.

So the flow is there...but if you're looking for it to be there 100% that's an unrealistic expectation. If you're looking for it to be evident to the naked eye, that's also an unrealistic expectation. Because in a real fight things are convoluted and simply don't work that way, (moreso on a broken rhythm).

So that is why I say to flow (and more importantly to win the said battle) one must make sure to perform in the most realistic manner as possible. This assumes of course that the fundamentals are grasped (both mentally and physically) so that when the performance levels are raised, the practitioner can focus on strategy or timing, etcetera while under pressure. The more your body gets accustomed to performing such an environment, the less the body will prove to be an inhibitor of all the finer details we strive to achieve in training.

[kungfublow]

Well now that you guys are done fighting which was basically about two different definitions of the world flow. Flow as I understand it is the ability to respond to an attack or block with a fluid motion. Basically transistioning very smoothly from one technique to the next. Like water going around anything that blocks its path. Water always finds a way through, it will look for any small crack and turn it into a hole. I think we can agree that Wing chun should flow. I understand that this will be more difficult in a real fight but it still should be our overall goal. What I don't understand is how in a real fight the flow will become broken. Sure someone will jam your technigue or grab your leg or whatever but can't we just take that attack and flow into the correct defense? Are we not still flowing in this case? We have taken an opposing attack and come up with an easy fluid response. To me this is still flow and it is what we should be trying to achieve.

What I also don't understand Hardwork is the internal flow that you are refering too. Is that the flow of Chi thoughout the body? What types of techniques develop this level of flow? I understand that internal training can develop many other skills related to MA. Meditation will develop concentration and focus. Which are both good tools especially when your life is on the line. I'm just not familar with the flow you are refering too. Could you please fill out this thought a little for me and perhaps others that aren't getting it.

[Vankuen]

I understand that this will be more difficult in a real fight but it still should be our overall goal. What I don't understand is how in a real fight the flow will become broken. Sure someone will jam your technigue or grab your leg or whatever but can't we just take that attack and flow into the correct defense? Are we not still flowing in this case? We have taken an opposing attack and come up with an easy fluid response. To me this is still flow and it is what we should be trying to achieve.


True, you absolutely can flow from successive attacks. But Flow becomes broken because nothing happens the way we want it to. Take a look at anything in life. You plan your budget, you plan your vacation, you plan your schooling, you plan your fighting. Often times things don't go according to plan. It's life, you know?

Regardless of the art practiced, you're going to have a number of factors that will inhibit flow in fighting. There are controllable factors, semi controllable factors, and uncontrollable factors. The controllable factors are anything that you can develop and that are under your direct control...like your techniques in training, the methodology of training, etc. The semi controllable factors are your mental faculties and bio functions. You can train your mind to be calm and fluid, but you cannot generally stop involuntary chemical functions. The uncontrollable factors are things like the knowledge of your opponent, the environment, time of day, etc.

For example, for (most) Wing Chun...individuals will not know how to deal with all those things that are different from what they were accustomed to in training. The lack of diversity in training inhibits flow in application because the next movement to flow to isn't intuitive. If someone were to do a double leg takedown, and get you in a kesa gatame, what part of your wing chun arsenal would you be able to use to get yourself out of that situation? This is an uncontrollable that will inhibit flow.

Your point is valid though...the possiblity exists to continue flowing from one move to the next, counter for counter, on and on...but more often than not things just don't happen that way. If pro fighters have their flow disrupted, we can deduce that most anyone of a lessor skill will as well.

[kungfublow]

"For example, for (most) Wing Chun...individuals will not know how to deal with all those things that are different from what they were accustomed to in training. The lack of diversity in training inhibits flow in application because the next movement to flow to isn't intuitive. If someone were to do a double leg takedown, and get you in a kesa gatame, what part of your wing chun arsenal would you be able to use to get yourself out of that situation? This is an uncontrollable that will inhibit flow."

Well I have to say you got me there. Considering I don't even know what a kesa gatame is let alone how to deal with it. My thought was that flow would develop the more experience you have with fighting. The more I spar the more gets thrown at me the more I know what to do in that situation. I can't possibly train to deal with every situation that could possibly come up. But maybe I can learn to roll with the punches so to speak and train my body to work with the force rather then against it. I would think that would develop better flow.

I hear what you are saying though. I also think I agree with you. If someone were to throw something at me that I had never seen before there would be that period of time where I had to analize what was going on and react. This would of course slow down any flow I had. Good Point!

[Yoshiyahu]

What a wonderful response...Excellent in fact. OKAY let me further clarify. With in my small circle of WC practioners and Internal Martial Artist i always see flow. Even my Sifu is always flowing. But when i meet other WC guys they do not flow. When I see other WC on youtube it appears chopy or harder. But I feel what your saying about broken rhythm. But i guess one has to clairfy flow better. Instead of just continous motion. One should state that from the moment of contact when a bridge presents it self as long as your sticking you should flow. I guess this could clear it up. I believe a misnomer would be that flowing is mere attacking. however I believe you can flow even when your deflecting,moving,stepping and kicking. Its easier to show then to say. But I love your response alot of insight...excellent.


OK....so lets take a look at the OP questions again.

He's sees a lot of physical discord on youtube and in his school. Lot's of stopping and going and so forth. He wonders why there is not a continuous motion of movement. He wonders if wing chun is supposed to look rigid or flowing. I can infer from this that flowing to him means that it is something visual--something that can be seen with the naked eye. He wants to know essentially why wing chun doesn't look like it does when it's demo'd or when you see it on movies.

The obvious answer is that wing chun is supposed to flow. The general principle behind this is the deflection and/or redirection of energy produced by incoming forces. You do this by using soft and relaxed strength, only noticeably tensing the muscle at moments of impact when you strike (because you still must be forceful when applying power).

Now take the wing chun maxim of accepting what comes, sending off what retreats and rushing in at a loss of contact. If someone takes this principle into application, what we'd see is a wing chun person being attacked...the force would be redirected and the wing chun person pre-emptively hitting first (another maxim). From there the wing chun man would continue the attack on the rotational axis of the opponent (again, another maxim)--naturally the opponent would backing away and trying to regroup from this flurry of attacks, whereby the loss of contact would be followed by the wing chun man shooting in (biu ma perhaps) to regain a bridge and continue the process. If/when the opponent goes to attack again the process would then run full circle and start over.

Notice that the above scenario follows the basic principles and maxims of wing chun. In theory it should be flowing, and continuous, and to be honest should end quite quickly. It is an ideal theoretical scenerio.

Here's the problem with that theory: In real life adrenalin rushes in. Fine movements go out the window. The calmness of the mind is now clouded by the danger of the real-world situation. VERY few people perform as well or as flowing as they did in training because the human processes are one of your biggest inhibitors of the said flow. However the other is (most importantly)...people fight back!!!

Now you've got someone disrupting your flow, countering what you're doing, snuffing out your chain punches, grabbing your legs, using unorthodox movements that you've never come across, using techniques you've never seen before or practiced against.

So the flow is there...but if you're looking for it to be there 100% that's an unrealistic expectation. If you're looking for it to be evident to the naked eye, that's also an unrealistic expectation. Because in a real fight things are convoluted and simply don't work that way, (moreso on a broken rhythm).

So that is why I say to flow (and more importantly to win the said battle) one must make sure to perform in the most realistic manner as possible. This assumes of course that the fundamentals are grasped (both mentally and physically) so that when the performance levels are raised, the practitioner can focus on strategy or timing, etcetera while under pressure. The more your body gets accustomed to performing such an environment, the less the body will prove to be an inhibitor of all the finer details we strive to achieve in training.

[punchdrunk]

it's hard to use terms like "flow" it can mean different things to different people. Flow as in leak in like water? or flow as in a series of continuos motions... or maybe both?
Any way to explain it more clearly?

I was taught that if you use a techinique but cannot follow it up from where it ends it was bad... that it was better to control the opponent so that you can attack again easily. Is that related to what your asking?

[Vankuen]

What a wonderful response...Excellent in fact. OKAY let me further clarify. With in my small circle of WC practioners and Internal Martial Artist i always see flow. Even my Sifu is always flowing. But when i meet other WC guys they do not flow. When I see other WC on youtube it appears chopy or harder. But I feel what your saying about broken rhythm. But i guess one has to clairfy flow better. Instead of just continous motion. One should state that from the moment of contact when a bridge presents it self as long as your sticking you should flow. I guess this could clear it up. I believe a misnomer would be that flowing is mere attacking. however I believe you can flow even when your deflecting,moving,stepping and kicking. Its easier to show then to say. But I love your response alot of insight...excellent.

AHHHH! Ok...so if I understand what you're saying here, you seem a lot more fluid movement coming from your classmates and training friends as opposed to what you see with other schools.

I'd say that happens for a number of reasons. First and foremost different schools are just that...different. There are literally thousands of chinese martial arts that deal in various doctrine of thought. The way they each do things is different. Wing Chun is no exception. Some schools of wing chun in application still look very soft, others do not. Some are not as fight orientated and you will see lots of chi sao. Some are fight oriented and you will see a lot of heavier contact sparring (Look up Victor and Phil on here...for example). So there's one explanation. Some schools just do it different.

Now the other reason, is because people that train together over time inherently start to learn each other so well that things will indeed flow [better]. One of my best friends trained in wing chun with me back when we were in high school...and when he and I bridged, from that point on it looked like a movie because we'd both pretty much know where our hands were going to go and there was just continuous movement until eventually someone got the hit. If I did some wing chun on someone who didn't also know it, and was used to onesey's and twosey's, they would more or less immediately eat it and everytime they'd punch I'd flow into something else. Like in the previous example, the bong, tan, and fook of wing chun was alien to him. Even if you went up against someone else who also did wing chun...say another school...it's quite possible the same would happen, but for different reasons. When crossing hands school to school, there's often ego involved which while it is a controllable factor often times gets the best of us, then there's the quasi controllable like the adrenaline and excitement of the contest...etc that further inhibit the calm and serene mind...the mind of wu wei... that we're supposed to have while in movement.

There's lots of reason why flow can be inhibited...so there's not a single answer to your question of "where's the flow". If there was...the closest thing would be "to err is to be human".

[Hardwork108]

Well now that you guys are done fighting which was basically about two different definitions of the world flow.
Well, one was a definition of flow as in every day activity and sports. The other was internal aspect of flow which relates to authentic kung fu trainig. This is a deeper and far more complx on hand and very simple on the other..

What I also don't understand Hardwork is the internal flow that you are refering too. Is that the flow of Chi thoughout the body?
To simplify.
The flow of chi has to happen but the end is goal is to train your mind until you get to a stage of just "being" where you just "are". No emotion, no anger,no fear, happiness. YOu just are and you react. That is the flow I am talking about and not the usuall flow where people "flow" because they get used to certain mechanical actions. Of course, the mechanical training does play its part but the goal is higher.

You get to this stage of just "being" through internal training and not punching bags or hard sparring, even though these are also relevant to wing chun.


What types of techniques develop this level of flow? I understand that internal training can develop many other skills related to MA. Meditation will develop concentration and focus. Which are both good tools especially when your life is on the line. I'm just not familar with the flow you are refering too. Could you please fill out this thought a little for me and perhaps others that aren't getting it.

the particular exercises are difficutl to explain on the net but you need to train your Siu Lim Tao internally. There are also other qigong exercises that you would need to do. Meditation is a part of it too.

Talk to your sifu and see what he will say.

Thank you for your civility and for asking intelligent questions.:)

HW8

[taai gihk yahn]

Well, one was a definition of flow as in every day activity and sports. The other was internal aspect of flow which relates to authentic kung fu trainig. This is a deeper and far more complx on hand and very simple on the other..
To simplify.
The flow of chi has to happen but the end is goal is to train your mind until you get to a stage of just "being" where you just "are". No emotion, no anger,no fear, happiness. YOu just are and you react. That is the flow I am talking about and not the usuall flow where people "flow" because they get used to certain mechanical actions. Of course, the mechanical training does play its part but the goal is higher.
You get to this stage of just "being" through internal training and not punching bags or hard sparring, even though these are also relevant to wing chun.
the particular exercises are difficutl to explain on the net but you need to train your Siu Lim Tao internally. There are also other qigong exercises that you would need to do. Meditation is a part of it too.

Talk to your sifu and see what he will say.

Thank you for your civility and for asking intelligent questions.:)

HW8
while I agree that there is a distinct qualitative difference between the sort of "flow" that is typically achieved in so-called "everyday / sport" activities and that which occurs as the result of TCMA internal training (and given the fundamentals that are common to all TCMA internal, I think that despite having not formally studied WC, I can still make a valid comparison to WC, especially given that SNT bears striking resemblance to certain fundamental aspects of the yi jin jing that I do), I would suggest that there are other practices that can achieve that which occurs in the latter; the commonalities would be the level and specificity of attention, awareness, intention, breathing, movements, etc.; taking it a step further, I would say that when one achieves a certain level of integration with the latter, it can carry over to the former, and this is what "masters" talk about when they describe their life as practice; finally, I would suggest that there necessarily must be instances where the reverse occurs - where someone through their mundane, daily life, spontaneously achieves the state of flow that most must acquire via internal practice - so, coming back, I would say the road flows in both directions - like the small undercurrent that is part of the great river;

[Hardwork108]

while I agree that there is a distinct qualitative difference between the sort of "flow" that is typically achieved in so-called "everyday / sport" activities and that which occurs as the result of TCMA internal training (and given the fundamentals that are common to all TCMA internal, I think that despite having not formally studied WC, I can still make a valid comparison to WC, especially given that SNT bears striking resemblance to certain fundamental aspects of the yi jin jing that I do), I would suggest that there are other practices that can achieve that which occurs in the latter; the commonalities would be the level and specificity of attention, awareness, intention, breathing, movements, etc.; taking it a step further, I would say that when one achieves a certain level of integration with the latter, it can carry over to the former, and this is what "masters" talk about when they describe their life as practice; finally, I would suggest that there necessarily must be instances where the reverse occurs - where someone through their mundane, daily life, spontaneously achieves the state of flow that most must acquire via internal practice - so, coming back, I would say the road flows in both directions - like the small undercurrent that is part of the great river;

I agree with most of this, however I wonder at the deepness of just the "being" state one can achieve solely through life experiences. I believe that it will be lacking. It might happen in rare cases, perhaps but IMHO it is not given.

For example, Van Kuen may practice the same techniques (externally) and apply them for many years and I am sure that he will achieve a great flow but wether it can match the state of mind of just "being" and the hand that this will play in one's combat fluidity, is another story.

Furthermore, there are the other aspects of "sensitivity/listening" and "sticking" abilities that will be enhanced when this high level is achieved.

Actually, I believe that through pure external training one can control the emotions in time through ceaseless practice to be able to flow but in the internal way you come to a point where you are not controlling anything as there are no thoughts and emotions, you just "are"!

For people who just practice their kung fu one dimensionally/externally (I don't mean you, Taai Gihk Yahn) the above concept sounds like fantasy. Hence all the misunderstanding and dare I say, ignorance.

HW108

PS. I was actually hoping for some input from you as I have not been able to get through to Van Kuen. And my charm didn't work either.:confused:

I hope that he will listen to you and perhaps take away some new knowledge/understanding from this thread, unlike the last time.

[Vankuen]

To simplify.
The flow of chi has to happen but the end is goal is to train your mind until you get to a stage of just "being" where you just "are". No emotion, no anger,no fear, happiness. You just are and you react. That is the flow I am talking about and not the usual flow where people "flow" because they get used to certain mechanical actions. Of course, the mechanical training does play its part but the goal is higher.

You get to this stage of just "being" through internal training and not punching bags or hard sparring, even though these are also relevant to wing chun.


So I'm going to preface my response with the fact that the following statements in no way have any ulterior motive other than to discuss various points.

On the first part your post you said that internal flow is far more complicated and a higher level of understanding…and that’s great…but it doesn’t tell anyone anything. It falls right in line with your modus operandi that I give you crap about. How does flowing internally versus externally end in something visually different looking?

Now in the second part…what I quoted above…If I understand what you’ve written here correctly, what you’re talking about is something generally called Mushin (Japanese) or Wu wei (Chinese). It is essentially the state of “no mind” or “mind of no mind”.

The explanation of this is that in movement you free your mind of all thought and emotion, and you just move without thinking. Or as you said more succinctly you just are… you just react. In more contemporary terms it’s the same as something being instinctive to you. Even the late Bruce Lee would talk about this in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do. To take that further—it’s the end result that all athletes and martial artists alike try to achieve in their chosen fields of study.

Now IF this is the end result of what you’re talking about…then I don’t believe that it’s something that can ONLY be achieved through internal methods. Rather it is something that is achieved through repetition…time on task…or quite simply hard work (kung fu). I can say this because it’s done time and time again in almost every one of the thousands of “external” styles of martial arts out there, and something I’ve always learned to be the goal no matter which style of martial arts I was studying.

[Hardwork108]

So I'm going to preface my response with the fact that the following statements in no way have any ulterior motive other than to discuss various points.
why should you have ulterior motives when you spewed them all out in the "Dynamic Tension in Forms" thread, therefore fueling the lies that Sanjuro Ronin is constantly spreading about me, in the Southern Styles board?

On the first part your post you said that internal flow is far more complicated and a higher level of understanding…
True...

and that’s great…
You think so too, eh?:D

but it doesn’t tell anyone anything.
It would if they had access to a decent sifu who taught authentic kungfu with all its relevant principles rather than McSifus who teach kung fu tagged kickboxing/MMA

It falls right in line with your modus operandi that I give you crap about.
I thought you gave me crap because that was part of yourmodus operandi. :confused:

How does flowing internally versus externally end in something visually different looking?
It is not about how it looks but the level of skill and perception!

Now in the second part…what I quoted above…If I understand what you’ve written here correctly, what you’re talking about is something generally called Mushin (Japanese) or Wu wei (Chinese). It is essentially the state of “no mind” or “mind of no mind”.
The explanation of this is that in movement you free your mind of all thought and emotion, and you just move without thinking. Or as you said more succinctly you just are… you just react. In more contemporary terms it’s the same as something being instinctive to you. Even the late Bruce Lee would talk about this in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do. To take that further—it’s the end result that all athletes and martial artists alike try to achieve in their chosen fields of study.
I guess you are right.

Now IF this is the end result of what you’re talking about…then I don’t believe that it’s something that can ONLY be achieved through internal methods.

As I said in a previous post, this can be achieved through physical training as well, however it is my belief that the HIGHER levels of this can be achieved only through internal training. I have a post above that says so.

You mentioned the Japanese expression for this state. You should be aware that the Japanese have their own versions of internal training (arguably not as advanced as the Chinese), hence the focus and meditation exercises. That should be a hint to you!

Rather it is something that is achieved through repetition…time on task…
I also referred to the importance of the external aspects. I.e. you don't just get good in kung fu by practicing chi kung and meditation. The "physical art" has to be trained as well. No arguments from me there.

or quite simply hard work
Why, thank you old boy, but I am not a sifu....

(kung fu).
D@mn!!! I knew that was too good to be true. :p

I can say this because it’s done time and time again in almost every one of the thousands of “external” styles of martial arts out there, and something I’ve always learned to be the goal no matter which style of martial arts I was studying.

As I clearly mentioned before any art or sport can be made to flow through practice and repetition. Internals will take you to another level because among other things the state of relaxed "being" can be useful for other endeavors.

Secondly and going back to kung fu, this state will facilitate the application of the other, not so easy to understand kung fu principles, including listening, sticking, etc.

Also, you will be hard pressed to find a genuine kung fu school that will only teach you externally. The key word is GENUINE.

HW108

[Vankuen]

Alright...well aside from the responding to every sentence, we're making progress!

The reason I asked about how it looks, and the reason why it matters in this thread, is because that was the original question posed by the original poster. He wanted to know where the flow was and why when he looked at his classmates and friends that they flowed better than things he saw on you tube or other schools of wing chun. He's basing his question on observation...which is visual in nature. So with that said...are you saying that the "look" is no different?

I'm not going to get into the subject of whether or not Japan or China has better training methods, that is irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Whether you use the Japanese term or the Chinese term...the terms mean the same thing. You agree that the state of no mind is a state of being. So let's take that agreed upon definition and expand on it...

You repeatedly spoke of a "higher level" of wu wei that is resultant of internal training. If one's mind is void of thought and emotion--you've quieted the chattering monkey--and you're able to simply move without concious thought...what higher level is there? What could the cultivation of qi do to enhance one's mental faculties that could not be done on an "external" level? Because to be frank...the psychological state of being can be altered regardless of whether someone practiced qi gong.

The ability of "listening" and "sticking" is something common in a great many styles of gung fu, I've experienced it first hand in all my kung fu styles...and not all of them are wing chun or tai chi. While all the styles of gung fu expressed ideas of qi gong and cultivating the flow of qi in the body for health, none (to include tai chi) expressed the idea that qi is responsible for the state of no mind or flowing in general. At best...the ability to flow comes from your ability to feel your opponents intent; whereby you subsequently move in harmony with it.

But are you saying that the reason that the internal mindset / flow / wu wei / mushin is better than other forms of it is because it's transferable to other facets of life? Because what you're talking about here is then something called Zen. It's the idea of focusing your faculties entirely on the present--on what you're doing at that moment in time and nothing else--you are there and in a state of no-mind. If that's the case, it has nothing to do with qi and anyone...martial artist or not...can practice the art of Zen. You can practice Zen with farming, you can practice it running, you can practice it meditating, you can practice it working on car, and you can practice it in your martial art.

But again, perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding you.

[Hardwork108]

Alright...well aside from the responding to every sentence, we're making progress!
I was just being thorough.;)

The reason I asked about how it looks, and the reason why it matters in this thread, is because that was the original question posed by the original poster. He wanted to know where the flow was and why when he looked at his classmates and friends that they flowed better than things he saw on you tube or other schools of wing chun.
That would suggest that his school was better than the schools he had come across on YouTube at least in the flow department.

He's basing his question on observation...which is visual in nature. So with that said...are you saying that the "look" is no different?
I was not talking about the difference of the look between a school where they teach the students to flow and a school where their "flowing" is weak.

It was more of a case of seeing one externally trained exponent flowing as compared with an internally person flowing. However, if y0u have the eye then you might notice the higher level of relaxedness and flow with the internal practitioner.

You will also see a difference when a high level internalist touches hand with someone who has not reached the no mind state. It looks as if the internalist knows what his adversary is going to do before he does it. Always one step ahead.

However, the best way is to touch hands with someone with this level of kung fu. Then you will really see.

I'm not going to get into the subject of whether or not Japan or China has better training methods,
Please don't!

hat is irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Whether you use the Japanese term or the Chinese term...the terms mean the same thing. You agree that the state of no mind is a state of being. So let's take that agreed upon definition and expand on it...

Actually, I would go further and say that there is NO STATE OF MIND! THERE IS NO MIND! You just are!

Compare that to the mindset of some modern external schools that say, "use your anger/fear when you fight" or "use your adrenalin rush to help you win" and so on.

Now imagine a highly trained internalist fighting with a pure externalist in the street. Who do you think is going to have the calmer mind and the higher perception?

Of course, you are not likely to see that because for every highly trained internalist there are a million highly trained externalists.

You repeatedly spoke of a "higher level" of wu wei that is resultant of internal training. If one's mind is void of thought and emotion--you've quieted the chattering monkey--and you're able to simply move without concious thought...

You move with no mind. You just ARE!

Please try and comprehend what I am saying. It is not just about being relaxed and focused because that requires you to use your mind too.


what higher level is there?
Enlightenment?


What could the cultivation of qi do to enhance one's mental faculties that could not be done on an "external" level?
Correct chi kung practice will enhance one's mental faculties on many levels.

Because to be frank...the psychological state of being can be altered regardless of whether someone practiced qi gong.
Yes you can drink a caffeinated drink; or hear one of my bad jokes. You are being rather vague. I don't know what you are looking for.

No too long ago you thought that internals and by extension, chi kung practice was BS, but now suddenly you have developed this "frightening" interest in the whole thing....Lol.

The ability of "listening" and "sticking" is something common in a great many styles of gung fu, I've experienced it first hand in all my kung fu styles...

Yet, you did not seem to have the slightest idea about their significance and function when we "discussed" the matter some time ago. You thought that there was no difference between the hard shotokan way of blocking an attack and the "soft" Internal TCMA way. I explained it to you, then Taai Gihk Yahn explained it to you and I seem to remember some input from that Scott fellow as well. Yet you went away from that thread none the wiser.

You were none the wiser when you entered this thread, yet suddenly you "have experienced it first hand" in all your kung fu styles. How many "kung fu" styles have you practiced (together with your "functional" MMA) and how come you are asking me these questions and not your "sifus"?

While all the styles of gung fu expressed ideas of qi gong and cultivating the flow of qi in the body for health, none (to include tai chi) expressed the idea that qi is responsible for the state of no mind or flowing in general. At best...the ability to flow comes from your ability to feel your opponents intent; whereby you subsequently move in harmony with it.

You still misunderstand. To flow with your opponent you need to just be, that way you can read your opponent's intent more clearly.

You need healthy chi flow to ENHANCE your mind and opening of your chakras and for the training involved in general.

To be honest, it is very difficult to explain this stuff to a pure externalist like yourself, specially when yours truly is not a sifu either. I am just a student.

If you are not playing games here then I would suggest you find a decent sifu. I know that it is easier said than done, but that is your only option and don't forget to empty the glass.;)

But are you saying that the reason that the internal mindset / flow / wu wei / mushin is better than other forms of it is because it's transferable to other facets of life?
Yes and more....

Because what you're talking about here is then something called Zen.
Bingo!

But actually you can call what you want and I am sure this concept is present in other philosophies as well.

It's the idea of focusing your faculties entirely on the present--on what you're doing at that moment in time and nothing else--you are there and in a state of no-mind.
It is my understanding that if you are focusing then you are using mind. That focusing is part of the training to get you eventually to the stage of just being!

You see how deep this thing is?

If that's the case, it has nothing to do with qi and anyone...martial artist or not...can practice the art of Zen. You can practice Zen with farming, you can practice it running, you can practice it meditating, you can practice it working on car, and you can practice it in your martial art.

As implied by my answer above, you are wrong if you think "just being" is focusing. Also, chi is every where in everything. It is my understanding that to get to the stage we are talking about you need to have harmonius chi flow to enchance your physical and spiritual self. You need to put time and effort into chi kung practice and meditation. You can't just say that I am in a zen mode today and I am going to focus on fighting.

But again, perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding you.
Nothing new there.;)

You seem to be looking for ways of "debunking" the internals, because if you wanted to understand them you would need to train them.

It seems that you want to prove to yourself that internal training is irrelevant to fighting training. Please feel free to deny it!

[taai gihk yahn]

and I seem to remember some input from that Scott fellow as well
yeah, we all have our memories about dealing with that "Scott fellow"...

[Vankuen]

No...I understand completely everything that was said, is said, and will be said at this point. I ask questions because I know the human body and want to see what'll you'll say in how qi works in the human body. You must remember that people often times ask questions they already have answers too. It's a good way to get to know someone.

In terms of flowing...the physical end result will be perceiveably the same. In terms of flowing due to a state of no mind...Zen is what you're talking about and if you understand Zen, it's not focusing in the literal way you're thinking but moreso just doing what you're doing and nothing else--which is pretty much how you put it...you just are. Perhaps I should have used a different word, my apologies.

I understand the internal perspective quite thoroughly, and again that's why I ask you the questions that I do. Because my understanding of qi is related to my added understanding of how it relates to western medicine and the human body as it is known today. As such I have a good understanding of where to draw the line in the belief of internal qi training and what it can do for you; unfortunately there is a western component to explain every single thing you've stated can only be attained through internal training.

The thing I disagree with the most...is the thought that the internal method is more superior to any other method. That's just plain and simply not true. As proven by so many others in the world. Internal training and qi gong is great for what it is--but it doesn't give you any greater ability to fight than any other system does. Nor will not give you a sixth sense of perception or added strength / power. However, maintaining "good chi flow" can improve your overall health.

But hey...that's just my opinion. I realize we're not going to all agree on this so it is what it is.

[Hardwork108]

yeah, we all have our memories about dealing with that "Scott fellow"...

LOL!

You mean you don't think that he is cool?:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Long, but informative, just like my Johnson :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mglagPMODU&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

A shorter version with more contact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBoQgeKP-0&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

What next, chimpanzies making "contributions"on quantum physics threads?

[Vankuen]

A shorter version with more contact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBoQgeKP-0&feature=related

You haaad to throw in Anderson Silva huh? Way to poke the bear.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You haaad to throw in Anderson Silva huh? Way to poke the bear.

Bear, beaver, its all good :D

[couch]

Internal training and qi gong is great for what it is--but it doesn't give you any greater ability to fight than any other system does. Nor will not give you a sixth sense of perception or added strength / power. However, maintaining "good chi flow" can improve your overall health.

But hey...that's just my opinion. I realize we're not going to all agree on this so it is what it is.

Good post.

I make my living on improving Qi (acupunk here) and even I don't buy into all this crap about Qi=Martial Art Effectiveness.

In my personal dictionary, the definition of Internal = Personal. That means that when you work on your 'Internals' you can only do one thing with it: keep it to yourself. You can't explain it, show it or use it outside of yourself. It's for self-cultivation, self-improvement, self-help/health.

Best,
CTK

[Hardwork108]

No...I understand completely everything that was said, is said, and will be said at this point.
Again, this does not correlate with our past conversation regarding the important aspects of TCMA defense, including sticking, sensitivity and listening.



I ask questions because I know the human body and want to see what'll you'll say in how qi works in the human body.
It does not really matter what I say if you Vankuen don't practice the art of kung fu in a holistic way including the internals then you will not see where I am coming from.

By the way, this forum is full of people who "know" the human body.


You must remember that people often times ask questions they already have answers too.
That does not happen too often on threads on the subject matter of authentic kung fu methods and principles.

Sorry to repeat, but based on my past conversation with you on a related subject which I must have mentioned a 100 times here already, and the tone of your entry into this very thread, I can only conclude that you did not have the answers of the questions you were asking. I am not saying that you did not have presumptions but then this forum is full of people like that in regards to traditional kung fu methodology.

It's a good way to get to know someone.

As if you cared.....lol.

In terms of flowing...the physical end result will be perceiveably the same. In terms of flowing due to a state of no mind...Zen is what you're talking about and if you understand Zen, it's not focusing in the literal way you're thinking but moreso just doing what you're doing and nothing else--which is pretty much how you put it...you just are. Perhaps I should have used a different word, my apologies.

No need to apologize. The state of "no mind" or "just being" is not an easy one to understand. All I can say on this is that it is a LOT more than repeating actions without thinking.

Let me give you an example. You are doing a chi sao exercise with a partner. You are flowing because you have trained chi sao externally for years. So far, so good. Your partner is not able to get you in any way because you have trained and flow much better than him. You counteract him time and again. Is this a state of "just being"? Not necessarily!

Imagine this, while you are "flowing" with him, a fellow classmate comes over and suddenly strikes at you. There goes your flow as you had not practiced externally for that situation (for the sake of this argument) but if you were just "being" then your level of perception would have been very, very much higher hence you would be less likely to be caught out.

I understand the internal perspective quite thoroughly, and again that's why I ask you the questions that I do.
Again, based on our past dialogue and the PRESENT one, I am finding that hard to believe.

Because my understanding of qi is related to my added understanding of how it relates to western medicine and the human body as it is known today.
Which type of qi are you talking about?
Besides, western medicine is largely clueless to qi!

Like a Western doctor friend told me a long time ago, "we know that it [Chinese medicine] works but we don't know how." That pretty much sums it up for me.

As such I have a good understanding of where to draw the line in the belief of internal qi training and what it can do for you;
I believe that you do not possess enough familiarity and experience to draw the line regarding what internal training can achieve for you.

unfortunately there is a western component to explain every single thing you've stated can only be attained through internal training.
Western explanation is very limited in its understanding of qi.

The thing I disagree with the most...is the thought that the internal method is more superior to any other method. That's just plain and simply not true..... Internal training and qi gong is great for what it is--but it doesn't give you any greater ability to fight than any other system does.
I just gave a scenario in this very post that showed an advantage one would have if in the state of "just being".

Furthermore, internal training is not just about chi. There are Nei gung exercises touched upon in the "Dynamic Tension in Forms" thread that are also concerned with internal training and have more "visible" external benefits. If I were you, I would investigate (train???) all of the above and build a better understanding, before drawing any lines, that is if you are really interested, which I doubt as you have had your mind made up about this subject a long time ago.


Internal training and qi gong is great for what it is--but it doesn't give you any greater ability to fight than any other system does.
It gives you added high level abilities.

You seem to be making a lot of sweeping generalizations for a methodology that you have not yourself trained.



Nor will not give you a sixth sense of perception or added strength / power.
It can give you all of that and more. Investigate your chi kung and nei gung properly with a real sifu and not with an MMA coach, and you will see.


However, maintaining "good chi flow" can improve your overall health.
Agreed.

But hey...that's just my opinion. I realize we're not going to all agree on this so it is what it is.
Nope, not the way you are going. :D;)

[Hardwork108]

You haaad to throw in Anderson Silva huh? Way to poke the bear.

Leave Clueless (and he proved it with his latest "contribution" to this thread) Sanjuro alone. Let him live his sexual fantasies with half naked Brazilian men and beavers and so on.

[couch]

Leave Clueless (and he proved it with his latest "contribution" to this thread) Sanjuro alone. Let him live his sexual fantasies with half naked Brazilian men and beavers and so on.

Easy there, tiger. Don't go messing around with our Canadian Beaver.

[Hardwork108]

Easy there, tiger. Don't go messing around with our Canadian Beaver.

Actually, I thought of replacing the "Beaver" with another word of the same implication that starts with "p".;)

Did you know that Sanjuro does kung fu (rather like Debbie was supposed to have "done" Dallas, I guess). And there are lot of people like him. That will explain the current sad state of kung fu today.

So lets all stand up and thank our Clueless Ronin, specially for his current video clip contribution to this thread which was about flowing.

[couch]

Actually, I thought of replacing the "Beaver" with another word of the same implication that starts with "p".;)

Did you know that Sanjuro does kung fu (rather like Debbie was supposed to have "done" Dallas, I guess). And there are lot of people like him. That will explain the current sad state of kung fu today.

So lets all stand up and thank our Clueless Ronin, specially for his current video clip contribution to this thread which was about flowing.

I'd take Paul's Kung-Fu over a lot of other methods any day.

[k gledhill]

I have only heard good things said about Canadian beaver.....do beavers flow ? :D

[Vankuen]

I know they like to stop the flow of rivers...

[Hardwork108]

I have only heard good things said about Canadian beaver.....do beavers flow ? :D
Have a look at the beaver's "contribution" to this thread and decide for yourself. ;)

[Hardwork108]

I'd take Paul's Kung-Fu over a lot of other methods any day.

What you are missing , IMHO, is that Paul has karate, he has TKD and a fair bit of kickboxing and MMA which I also believe he may have gotten to a good quality. However, as far as actual authentic kung fu is concerned, he is the good old Clueless Sanjuro, (IMHO).

What I am saying is that it is not wise to confuse good MMA/Kickboxing skills with good authentic kung fu ones, even if the person concerned happens to be good at posting bikini clad women all over the place. :)

[Hardwork108]

I know they like to stop the flow of rivers...

Not just rivers.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have only heard good things said about Canadian beaver.....do beavers flow ? :D

Of course they do, everything does :D

http://models-photographers.com/models/natasha/natasha-thong-canadian-flag.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know they like to stop the flow of rivers...

That they do
http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/CanadaFlagGirl01.jpg