Wing Chun Wooden Dummy Form

[dcrjradmonish]

Wooden Dummy Form

I thought I seen a post before on this but didn't see when I looked. My apologies if it's still a thread on the forum and I have missed. My question is if a guy/gal learnt just the wooden dummy form how much of wing chun would you say that form alone covers of the style?

[couch]

Wow. Cool question.

If I were to give you a percentage, perhaps 60%+ of the system if the structure and technique were correct.

[kungfublow]

That is a hard question. I too would say about 60%. However much would be lost without the positioning learned in SLT and the stepping and body unity learned in Chum Kiu. So you would understand the movements of the dummy form but possibly have the wrong structure and positioning to make them actually work. You would be missing a big piece of the pie.

[couch]

That is a hard question. I too would say about 60%. However much would be lost without the positioning learned in SLT and the stepping and body unity learned in Chum Kiu. So you would understand the movements of the dummy form but possibly have the wrong structure and positioning to make them actually work. You would be missing a big piece of the pie.

True, but it could be all taught right then and there - in the Dummy form: the proper positioning AND the footwork (because it contains it). Then, like when learning the other forms, it should be ripped out and things practiced in isolation until they're second nature.

[kungfublow]

True, but it could be all taught right then and there - in the Dummy form: the proper positioning AND the footwork (because it contains it). Then, like when learning the other forms, it should be ripped out and things practiced in isolation until they're second nature.

Good point! If the structure was wrong the dummy would show you and you would feel it while doing the form. You could then correct it from there. So I guess most everything can be isolated and worked on by just knowing the dummy form. So would you say that knowing the dummy form gives you enough info to be a fairly proficent wing chun fighter. I guess I'm saying is the meat of the wing chun curiculum in the dummy form?

[anerlich]

I agree this is a really good question.

If you look at most WC branches, they have the three forms, dummy, weapons, chi sao, other drills like lop sao, kiu sao, etc., and then sparring in various forms, and maybe a few other specialist drills.

In such a case, I personally feel you could get most of what you get from SLT and CK from the dummy. IMO structure is best learned from the dummy and chi sao rather than the forms. A lot of Bil Jee is in there too, though IMHO not everything.

OTOH you have other systems like Gu Lao / Kooloo which have a different formal basis, and its hard (for me) to say how that might skew the stats.

I guess I'm saying is the meat of the wing chun curiculum in the dummy form?

I can agree with that, though really there's a lot of overlap with the various methods of training.

[Edmund]

So would you say that knowing the dummy form gives you enough info to be a fairly proficent wing chun fighter. I guess I'm saying is the meat of the wing chun curiculum in the dummy form?

That's an interesting way of looking at it but I would say that the curriculum is a progression. It starts from easier movements (that you can see in SLT) and moves on to more complicated ones like in the dummy. Each form is just a way to practice your techniques.

By having simpler forms and progressing to more complicated ones you create a little learning path for people to follow rather than just pointing to one form as the meat.

[-木叶-]

IMHO, By knowing just the dummy form alone, i think it would cover 30%.

Wing Chun has SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ Faat, LDB Pole, BJD Knives form

The wooden dummy form is a collection of techniques which were mostly covered
in the 3 primary Wing Chun forms, and the intention is to "spar" with the dummy
when there are no opponents to train with. Alot will be missing for the student
if they only learn the wooden dummy form alone, it will be like portions from each of the 3 forms. It is like jumping straight into doing differentiation without learning add, subtract, divide, although yes you can learn them there.

Just my own observation though, please correct me.

From my personal experience, with proper and thorough understanding of Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee, it helps alot with the Mook Yan Jong form later on.

Maybe it is also correct vice versa but i was not taught that way.

[k gledhill]

The dummy is an idea being re-enforced ..without that little idea from SLT your simply going through the motions of VT arm shapes.
The alignment of arms and angles of attack are cycled using the arms of the dummy as 'points' of strike contact interruption and correct 'facing' to be able to use each arm equally while attacking at angles to the opponent.
Shock force iow displacement force is developed too...without the bare hands coaching to develop the centerline focus, and avoid chasing using the fixed elbow theory, you would be training without the right mind set to guide your arms/structure.

it doesnt take a lot of time to gain enough knowledge to take to the dummy and develop yourself correctly...it takes no time at all to do it wrong ;) and its only in the mind ..the little idea being developed. Do you have the idea or not ?

[m1k3]

I think another way to look at this is like him asking "Could I learn to box just by using the heavy bag?". The answer of course is yes.

The more interesting question is "Could I learn to box well by just hitting the heavy bag?". Of course the answer is no.

[kungfublow]

The dummy is an idea being re-enforced ..without that little idea from SLT your simply going through the motions of VT arm shapes.
The alignment of arms and angles of attack are cycled using the arms of the dummy as 'points' of strike contact interruption and correct 'facing' to be able to use each arm equally while attacking at angles to the opponent.
Shock force iow displacement force is developed too...without the bare hands coaching to develop the centerline focus, and avoid chasing using the fixed elbow theory, you would be training without the right mind set to guide your arms/structure.

it doesnt take a lot of time to gain enough knowledge to take to the dummy and develop yourself correctly...it takes no time at all to do it wrong ;) and its only in the mind ..the little idea being developed. Do you have the idea or not ?

I agree with this. The dummy does have much to offer but without the knowledge of the forms you will most likely miss many of the ideas and techniques that can be learned from the dummy. It would be like trying to drive without knowing the rules of the road. It can be done but it could really lead you down the wrong path.

[couch]

I think another way to look at this is like him asking "Could I learn to box just by using the heavy bag?". The answer of course is yes.

The more interesting question is "Could I learn to box well by just hitting the heavy bag?". Of course the answer is no.

I don't think this is a good analogy. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Wooden Dummy = Structure, techniques, timing, footwork.

Heavy Bag = Structure, techniques, timing, footwork.

Box well = fight/spar experience

Fight using WC as your 'base system/ideology' = fight/spar experience

[couch]

The dummy is an idea being re-enforced ..without that little idea from SLT your simply going through the motions of VT arm shapes.

OR if the dummy was all that was being taught - it WOULDN'T be what was being re-inforced, as it would be the 'little idea' itself of the system.

...and aren't we just 'going through the motions of VT arm shapes' no matter what form we're practicing? ;)

[anerlich]

The dummy does have much to offer but without the knowledge of the forms you will most likely miss many of the ideas and techniques that can be learned from the dummy. It would be like trying to drive without knowing the rules of the road. It can be done but it could really lead you down the wrong path.

What do the forms supply that you couldn't get just as well from doing the dummy movements in the air, with attention to the same concepts and details you concentrate on in the forms?

Not all WC lineages have the 3 forms, IIRC. Gu Lao / Kooloo, has 40 points, IIRC from reading Complete Wing Chun, and IMO these are more like dummy sequences than like the 3 forms.

IMO you lcan learn more about structure and angles from the dummy in the first few hours than you can in years of forms practice.

[k gledhill]

OR if the dummy was all that was being taught - it WOULDN'T be what was being re-inforced, as it would be the 'little idea' itself of the system.

...and aren't we just 'going through the motions of VT arm shapes' no matter what form we're practicing? ;)

No, we arent just going through the motions with no 'idea' why....you can do a form for years without understanding the goals to attain with them and be simply going through the motions ..iow copying your sifu with just as little idea :D...or what is redundant in drills to actual fighting ...

there are many redundant things we don vt...roll with 2 extended arms ..redundant...
dan chi ...striking in 2 beats...redundant....doing kwan sao, while standing in front of someone ...redundant....

the elbow positions are paramount in dummy training...but many will focus on hitting the arms and body...with little or no 'idea' at all....;)

[Tom Kagan]

The wooden dummy covers 100% of the style and also 0% - both at the same time and nothing in between.

[kungfublow]

What do the forms supply that you couldn't get just as well from doing the dummy movements in the air, with attention to the same concepts and details you concentrate on in the forms?

Not all WC lineages have the 3 forms, IIRC. Gu Lao / Kooloo, has 40 points, IIRC from reading Complete Wing Chun, and IMO these are more like dummy sequences than like the 3 forms.

IMO you lcan learn more about structure and angles from the dummy in the first few hours than you can in years of forms practice.

I belive the forms give you the concept of structure and centre line and elbow posistioning. So yes these things can be trained and perfected on the wooden dummy but the wooden dummy itself does not give you these concepts. It really only allows you to work on them. It's like the forms are the paint and the dummy is the canvass. One must come before the other. The forms give you the tools to train on the dummy and the dummy perfects and refines these tools.

I agree that the dummy is a much more effective training tool for things like structure and angles.

[k gledhill]

I would add that the forms and drills are the tools, but like putting a motorcycle together without directions and prior experience the tools alone are useless. You may get wheels and a frame going with a few parts still lying around that will allow the motorcycle to achieve its true potential speed power , handling ability, braking/accelerating ..:D.

What is essential, is the transmitted verbal directions to use them to 'construct' something you cant see in the foms. Like the images that you have to look into by changing your focus past the abstract surface of repeating forms to the clarity of seeing under the surface a simple goal laid out, like an image that comes together by staring at it long enough, you see past the redundant pieces and see a 'whole idea'.

Why we use analogies, of water crashing on rocks, when the hand is free just hit, attack with abandon...to give the feeling of attacking in a flowing continuous method mindlessly launching attack after attack while moving to gain advantages from simple positioning etc..and yet we see a lot of statue posing turning to give salutations with arms extended equally..:rolleyes:

You need the complete system ideas in your head not the forms physically , with this information you can see the process from the beginning is very clear and unambiguous .

The dummy becomes a simple advanced 'solo time' tool to further ingrain the previous actions you did in modular forms. Coupled with the idea in your head to guide the elbows inwards along the line , to keep the elbows low as possible to create good fighting actions....

We use the oral explanation to have the idea in our heads, allowing us to use the mind to focus on the centerline for a reason. Using the forms to give us time to bring elbows in etc...but why have elbows in ? what purpose is this strange idea ? what is the goal we have before us..
Many teach from a stunted approach, not having completed the system and fully understanding the tactics we adopt, the % rule guiding those tactics. The proximity changes of engaging the opponent if they are armed or bare handed.
The drills unexplained become the 'system' rather than the drills helping us to a goal we cant see....so we have to keep a focus on the simple end product.

How to attack without stopping using continuous attacking actions, angles, motion etc,etc...

[Yoshiyahu]

Its simple the Dummy is one of many tools to condition and refine your skills. But the dummy alone will not complete your WC. Its like one said before. If you hit a heavy bag and speed bag but never spar, drill, shadow box and learn the boxing punches by endless practice you will have some power and speed but will lack the skills that other boxers have that do more than hit speed bags and heavy bags.

Its simple. No hung gar fighters or choy li fut fighters just practice their wooden dummy techniques. They practice many other forms as well. They also practice drills. So one should incorporate all components of their art to increase their arsenal and the way they apply it.

[couch]

Its simple the Dummy is one of many tools to condition and refine your skills. But the dummy alone will not complete your WC.

True. However, I interpreted the initial question in regards to the WC as a curriculum or system. Not as in 'how much will the WC dummy teach you how to fight?'

[AdrianK]

The wooden dummy covers 100% of the style and also 0% - both at the same time and nothing in between.

So then it covers 50%.

[k gledhill]

the dummy itself also has to be set up to re-enforce the previous thinking you have done in SLT ~CK ~BG...the height of the dummy is very important and often overlooked.
The height of the dummy arms should be at a level that doesn't make your elbows lift up and down constantly , creating long levers every time you extend and lift the forearms to make contact...
the alignment of the elbows & wrists creating striking lines to the target as you move are also important, so if your moving to hit the arms and have no alignment in your mind to focus on your simply training bad positions that yu will further exaggerate under pressure / stress testing.

When we start VT the goals are laid out, the dummy is an advanced method of ingraining this idea by rotation of arms attacking and deflecting and then recovering back to its opposite..ie if one hand just cycled to deflect it becomes an attacking hand again, recovering the elbow positions and vice versa..deflection becomes attack...attacking hand becomes deflection..

Lateral shifting in the 1st and 2 sections shows rotation while attacking across the face of the dummy left to right & R2L NOT to stand and turn before a piece of wood doing kwan sao ;) the arms moving into and out of kwan sao are what you should be thinking to develop ...not how to use 2 of your arms to fight a guy while turning away from them , pointing your centerline away from them outside their shoulder line...as you might play a redundant chi-sao game/move.

If you think to use your wrist energy rather than elbow control you will tend to develop energy that passes across your own centerline while parrying , leaving you open to counters off your lead action /man sao

remember we attack the empty space/void created by the opponents actions ...not their arms that we do without thinking :cool: we let them move and hit them, they show us what to do.

[iwingchun]

I liked this answer: The wooden dummy covers 100% of the style and also 0% - both at the same time and nothing in between.

here are some wooden dummy form videos by many famous sifu
http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157&Itemid=72

[Phil Redmond]

The wooden dummy covers 100% of the style and also 0% - both at the same time and nothing in between.
There is no way that the jong covers 100% of Wing Chun. There are too many other variables.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I agree with Mr. Redmond. It could not hope to cover 100%. Probably not even 40%. Probably far less. The original question was if one only learned the dummy form. That would mean that one did not learn the other 3 forms. In that case, what would you be doing on the dummy? It can not possibly teach you the concepts of Wing Chun, but only the moves of the wooden dummy form. It would be a complete and total waste of time.

LCP

[k gledhill]

the dummy is composed of SLT 'form' + CK 'form' + BG 'form' .
the 1st two sections are slt end of form attack defense cycling arms with Chum Kil...movement angling and arm cycling...attacking angles with motion.

the dummy is a combination of all the forms, but without the idea being developed you will end up with ridiculous 'moves' ...killer kwan sao :D the more deadly high AND low gaun sao ( to be said like : country AND western ) :D..the list of redundant ideas goes on....
you need the SLT idea, the ck and its angles + movement to maintain the idea/concept of attacking as defense....

you can learn the form[dummy] but will not have the isolation time to work arms alone , without motion of ck etc...

BG is its own ideas, from bad or recovery positions...so its left to 'parts' of the dummy