Shaolin Tong Bi Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Shaolin Tong Bi Quan sets are another mess, not as bad as the others, but with the added mystery of just what are they really supposed to be?

You clearly need to know Shaolin Hong Quan and Pao Quan first before you can master the Tong Bi Quan set.

Tong Bi Quan means "Through the arms" or "Tunnel Arm" Boxing.

It is erroneously sometimes pinyin-ized as "Tong Bei" Quan, which is something entirely different, meaning "Through the Back" Boxing.

Tong Bi was synonymous with "long fist" in ancient times.

The style that was now know as Tong Bei Quan was developed by a Taoist Priest named Dong Cheng during the late 1500s. He learned Shaolin Quan from two students of Bai Yufeng (complete info is in my forthcoming book!). From them he learned Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets, Hong Quan sets, and Pao Quan sets. He created something he called Tong Bi Quan after observing some Yellow Gibbons interacting in the mountain slopes and incorporated the long arm movements into his Shaolin Quan. Later still he learned Six Harmony Spear at Qianzai Temple and also Rou Quan. He met up with the nephew (or grandson?) of Zhang San Feng, who practiced Nei Jia Quan. From him, he exchanged routines, teaching Zhang some Taizu and other Shaolin sets and from him learning the Taoist 13 Gong (often called 13 Skills or 13 Postures). He merged all this and developed what was called Tongbei Quan. You can date the lineages of his students from what time period that they learned had from him by them having Quan Pu manuals that are labeled either Tong Bi or Tong Bei. They are very different from each other.
He went on the later influence that founding of Chen Taiji Quan, but that's another long story.

Hence you have to say "Shaolin" Tongbi Quan in order to be clear that you don't mean the other Tongbi Quan style from Dong Cheng of Henan.

Now, back to SHAOLIN TONG BI Quan.

It's movements CLEARLY are found within Hong Quan and Pao Quan. Shaolin Tong Bi Quan shares with them the postures of Single Whip, Tui Shou (push hand), Cloud Peak overhead, and more. But, it also features movements found in the Taizu Chang Quan set and the Shaolin Ape-Monkey Quan set. One important feature of Shaolin Tong Bi Quan is its great use of the Spear Hand posture, in fact it is heavily emphasized. There is also much use of the "lying head on pillow" movement that is found in the Rou Quan and Lao Hong Quan sets from the Dengfeng area and the Shi Degen and Liu Zhen Hai lineages.

There has been some conjecture that Shaolin Tongbi Quan comes from Han Tong's Tongbi Quan, which is mentioned as one of the base styles that Shaolin Quan is based on, including the Taizu Chang Quan set.

But, at Shaolin, the Tongbi Quan sets were practiced mostly by the guards that watched the South, East, and West gate entrances to the Shaolin Temple grounds.

But, when you look further at the movements of Shaolin Tongbi Quan, they share a lot in common with the other most practiced style within that region of Shaolin, which is what?
The Liu Bu Jia (Da Hong Quan - Big Swan Fist), which was practiced by many military people. The Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets contain one important posture not seen in anything else but sets that are related to Liu Bu Jia Da Hong Quan, which is the San Huang Bang (Three Dazzling Wings). The Bang is the same part of the body as the Bi in Chinese, the upper arms (forearms).

I really think that Shaolin Tongbi Quan must have came from village Da Hong Quan. Here's some important points:

1 - Shaolin Tongbi Quan was practiced at the gates on the Shaolin grounds by the temple guards, not in the regular areas.
2 - Tongbi means Tunneling Arms, Through the Arms, etc., and is another way of saying Long Fist.
3 - Shaolin Tongbi Quan was practiced there since the Song dynasty. It was one of the martial arts that Fu Ju brought together to create the TZ Chang Quan 32 set.
4 - If this is true, and General Han Tong practiced Tongbi (which is what the ancient Shaolin books say and other books), then since General Han Tong practiced the same martial arts as Zhao Kuangyin, being from the same army, and since Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Fist) was practiced in the military since the Sui dynasty, and since it is clear that Lao Hong Quan that came from Zhao Kuangyin is very much derived from Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Fist), THEN this Shaolin Tongbi is indeed also derived from Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Fist).
5 - Big Swan Fist shares all the Single Whip and other movements that overlap between Shaolin Hong Quan, Pao Quan, and Tongbi Quan. In fact, they practiced them first and for much longer.
6 - Centuries later the guard posts and shrine area of Shaolin practiced the Shaolin Kan Jia Quan style, and the Big Swan Fist books say that Shaolin Kan Jia came from Big Swan Fist (and the sets clearly show this), then more than likely Shaolin Kanjia developed out of Shaolin Tongbi Quan.

Anyway, that's my opinion from analyzing the movements and postures and history of the area.

Now, today there seems to be only a few Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets practiced.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia and the Tagou Books show only two Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets: Xiao Tong Bi and Da Tong Bi. Again, like the Xiao and Da Pao Quan sets, the Xiao Tong Bi set is very long and the Da Tong Bi Quan set is very short.
In fact, the Xiao Tongbi set seems to have three seams; three points where the opening salute is given and the set starts again. So, maybe there originally was three separate sets that are now merged into one.
The Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets shown the Shaolin Encyclopedia and the Tagou Books match each other pretty much. The main different being two:
1 - the direction you are facing when doing certain postures are turned around in the Tagou books, but then return back to facing the same way.
2 - both sets are much longer in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. In this case, which is not often, the Tagou sets seem to be abbreviated a lot.

I compared these two other written sources. The Shaolin sets were the same in all the Shaolin sources I checked, all were longer than the Tagou sets.

BUT, Liu Zhenhai has another book (Shaolin Temple Tao Lu, 1996, isbn 7534947530) in which he shows two sets that are similar to the Shaolin and Tagou Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan set, but much more longer and finely detailed:
1. Yi Lu Tong Bei Quan - 74 postures / 95 movements
2. Er Lu Tong Bei Quan - 32 postures / 46 movements

In Liu Zhenhai's version of the sets, there clearly is shown the movements from the Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Boxing) style, such as San Huang Bang and movements from the Shaolin Ape-Monkey set that are not found in almost all other modern versions of the Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets.
Today's Shaolin Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets when shown appear to be smoothed over and modernized enough to hide the original roots that are apparent in its postures and movements that link to other sets and styles.

I will prepare and post on youtube Liu Zhenhai's vcds of his Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets. He has three VCDs labeled as Xiao Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.

Also, I will gather up whatever versions of these sets that can be found on Youtube that you can see.

One last thing, Shi Deyang not only teaches the main Xiao and Tongbi Quan sets, but also Tongbi Quan sets from other gate tradition. The different gates practiced different routines from each other in case one gate was overcome in battle then the other ones would know different material, which would give better chances to overcome the invaders.
- Shi deyang also has 3 vcds out that are labeled Xiao Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.
- And, he has 3 vcds labeled Nan Yuan (South gate) Da Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.
- Finally, he has one VCD of Da Tongbi Quan as well.
These sets came from his late master Suxi.

Anyone that wants to add info to this posting, please do, thanks!

[Sal Canzonieri]

1. The short Da Tongbi Quan (abbreviated) set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNByYRPmbk (shi deyang - same exact as the Tagou books version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plU5pj-7HSk (made with REALLY ANNOYING CAMERA ANGLE CHANGES! Irritating bozos!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plU5pj-7HSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od-vIuaMLQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sx9pX00iYM (different way of doing set)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k (old Shaolin way of doing the set - same as in Shaolin Encyclopedia, but with more transition movements shown. Longer and more detailed than Tagou version of this set. Still not as many postures and movements as Liu Zhenhai's Er Lu version, but very close.) THE BEST VERSION OF SHAOLIN DA TONGBI QUAN readily available to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh91XIsii4s (by 31st generation Shi De Ding -Jiao Hong Bo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og023uq6kD8 (Wu Gulun version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHzKhb8TgE (another version - Wu Gulun style)

[RenDaHai]

AAAh, cant watch the videos again.


On the name. Recently discussed this a lot with my assistant translator. Bi means arm, however it means the entire arm, including the shoulder. Tong means through, however the same character has a second less common meaning and that is full or entire. THis compounds the full arm of bi, often chinese is constructed like this, one character compounds the other. Thus in this situation I beleive TongBi best translates as 'FULL ARM BOXING' emphasizing that the entire arm is used. ANyone who has seen the standard wushu tongbi will understand this name. Tong as through doesn't make as much sense. If it does mean 'through' then it should be translated as 'PENETRATING FIST' another suitable name. Arm-through means nothing in english and is therefore a poor translation. TOngbi is often referred to as Tongbei, this is because in Henan language Bi is pronounced Bei, this has led to lots of people miss translating it as 'back' (also bei).


Tongbi quan is a similar situation to Pao quan. You have the long form which is as you guessed 3 forms put together. Most people only practice two of them at a time. This is the shaolin tongbei quan.

Then we have Da tong bei, this again is very common in dengfeng where xiao tong bi is not. So as with pao quan we have dengfeng short tongbi, and shaolin san lu long tongbi. Just got the yellow book from shaolin temple, although it has some differences I think this is the definitive version, has all three sets completely.

Nanyuan tongbi is another menpai. Deyangs is the only good version I have seen, I have other videos of it. Actually there are many forms from the 'nanyuan' pai, it is generally the kung fu of the abbot ZhenXu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

AAAh, cant watch the videos again.


All these videos are also found on the Chinese versions of YouTube, such as 56.com and all the rest, you can find them.

So far I have only found Da Tongbi Quan videos, none for Xiao Tongbei Quan (or Tongbi Yi, Er, and San Lu) on the english sites. I will check the Chinese sites this morning.

On the name. Recently discussed this a lot with my assistant translator. Bi means arm, however it means the entire arm, including the shoulder. Tong means through, however the same character has a second less common meaning and that is full or entire. THis compounds the full arm of bi, often chinese is constructed like this, one character compounds the other. Thus in this situation I beleive TongBi best translates as 'FULL ARM BOXING' emphasizing that the entire arm is used. ANyone who has seen the standard wushu tongbi will understand this name. Tong as through doesn't make as much sense. If it does mean 'through' then it should be translated as 'PENETRATING FIST' another suitable name. Arm-through means nothing in english and is therefore a poor translation. TOngbi is often referred to as Tongbei, this is because in Henan language Bi is pronounced Bei, this has led to lots of people miss translating it as 'back' (also bei).

Yes, indeed very true. AND, what is very interesting, this "Full Arm Boxing" is the essence of the San Huang Bang movements of Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist), as found in the beginning of their sets, such as Liu Bu Jia, etc.
This whole style is entirely based on using Full Arm Boxing, and a Penetrating Fist. They use these words when describing their style's theory and operations. Its one big long fist from one hand traveling along the arm through the shoulders to the other arm and out to the other hand. You punch like a wave from one end to the other.

This concept of Tongbi was influential to the formation of Taizu Chang Quan, which came from the input of the military advisers from Zhao Kuang Yin's army.
From Zhao came the use of his "Lifting Hands" technique. From General Han Tong (who died in battle against Zhao's rebel forces, when Han tried to defend the child emperor) came the use of this penetrating fist idea, of whole body movement, etc.


Tongbi quan is a similar situation to Pao quan. You have the long form which is as you guessed 3 forms put together. Most people only practice two of them at a time. This is the shaolin tongbei quan.

Yeah, Liu Zhenhai seems to have a very detailed and long version of it. I will review his videos and see how different they are from Shi Deyang's version of the three sets. Hopefully, Liu's VCDs will be like his book's version (that would make things much more neater to deal with).

Then we have Da tong bei, this again is very common in dengfeng where xiao tong bi is not. So as with pao quan we have dengfeng short tongbi, and shaolin san lu long tongbi. Just got the yellow book from shaolin temple, although it has some differences I think this is the definitive version, has all three sets completely.

I will have Shi Yongxin's two Shaolin Tongbi Quan books any day now, they come very fast in the mail. So, there is 一路通臂拳 and 大通臂拳.
Which of these books are you saying has "all three sets completely"? His Tongbei is only Yi Lu on the cover. It has all three parts?
Or do you mean his Da Hong Quan, that was full complete all three parts in one book, very nice!


Nanyuan tongbi is another menpai. Deyangs is the only good version I have seen, I have other videos of it. Actually there are many forms from the 'nanyuan' pai, it is generally the kung fu of the abbot ZhenXu.

I would like to learn as much about the other Shaolin gate routines and styles.
Any information you can provide, I will be grateful, in the spirit of research, thanks!
What other routines come from Nanyuan Pai?

What about the East and West Yuan Pais?

[RenDaHai]

@sal

I didnt bother getting the Da tong bei book because it is the standard Da tongbi, like deyang does, a bit nicer round the edges though, but I have learned this form 10 times and seen it 10,000.

The Yi lu book is the one. That has all 3 forms of xiao tongbi put together in one glorious 76 movement form. The last section, section 3 I have never seen before. It is awesome, and next to san lu luohan quan is the form I want to study from him (yan Zhuang). I never really liked tongbi quan that much but on seeing this book i cant get it out of my head.

Nan Yuan Pai, I think a lot of Zhen Xu Fang Zhans forms were nan yuan pai. I also know that Su xi was primerily nan yuan pai. Its a large sect within shaolin. I don't know a huge amount about it, but I know xuan feng dao (very traditional double saber set) is also nan yuan pai. My master (yong wen) is very familiar with it, I'll ask him what else is nan yuan pai next time i get a chance.

[Sal Canzonieri]

少林小通臂拳 - Xiao Tongbi Quan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OMejSdJlI (Shi Deyang doing his Yi, Er, and San Lu sections, first two sections match the Shaolin Encyclopedia, the third section is nothing like it. His three are like the Tagou book version, abbreviated.)

[Tainan Mantis]

There has been some conjecture that Shaolin Tongbi Quan comes from Han Tong's Tongbi Quan,


Interesting stuff Sal.
As you know the "Surnames of the Founders of Eighteen Styles" lists the first two as:
"Taizu's Longfist is the beginning.
Han Tong's Tong Bei is the mother."

The Bei character used here is 'bei' for 'back.'

within Mantis Fist the Tong Bei of Han Tong refers to a group of techniques called 'seven long' (qi chang).

The manuscript of Seven Long finishes with a description of Han Tong's Tong Bei.

As for Tong Bei, when Han Tong demonstrated his greatness, both his elbows and hips worked as one to pass through the shoulders.
Later generations learned it, stretching forward and bending back, turning to the side and rushing forward. This is what we call Tong Bei.

But, besides Mantis Boxing I have found little mention of "Hantong's" Tong Bei.

Besides Mantis, where else is Han Tong mentioned?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting stuff Sal.
As you know the "Surnames of the Founders of Eighteen Styles" lists the first two as:
"Taizu's Longfist is the beginning.
Han Tong's Tong Bei is the mother."

The Bei character used here is 'bei' for 'back.'

within Mantis Fist the Tong Bei of Han Tong refers to a group of techniques called 'seven long' (qi chang).

The manuscript of Seven Long finishes with a description of Han Tong's Tong Bei.

As for Tong Bei, when Han Tong demonstrated his greatness, both his elbows and hips worked as one to pass through the shoulders.
Later generations learned it, stretching forward and bending back, turning to the side and rushing forward. This is what we call Tong Bei.

But, besides Mantis Boxing I have found little mention of "Hantong's" Tong Bei.

Besides Mantis, where else is Han Tong mentioned?

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

The History of the Song is a huge history book from ancient China.

Supposedly, Han Tong (韩通) was a General along with Zhao Kuangyin (赵匡胤) under the Later Zhou Dynasty. He was stationed at the gate leading into Shandong Province (I think at the junction point where the different provinces all border each other (Hebei, Henan).
When the Zhou Emperor died (I think it was Zhou Shizong) and a infant child was to take the throne, the army generals rebelled and chose Zhao Kuangyin to be the new emperor. When word reached the rest of the Zhou empire, many other generals defected and there was a lot of chaos. The only person who remained loyal to the Zhou emperor and fought with resistance was Han Tong, but he was killed by one of Kuangyin's generals when he reached home. New Emperor Zhao requested a big ceremony for his death and attended the funeral.
The Later Zhou Dynasty was from out of Taiyuan, which was in Shanxi province. Han Tong may have come from there as well. He enlisted in the army at 20 years of age and was a great fighter, quickly rising in ranks to general. He was famous for fighting off the Khitan.
His military life is here in Chinese: http://baike.baidu.com/view/676811.htm


Okay, back to Tongbi Quan.

Hmm, I don't think that using the "back" character for Bi was correct.
In the fact that it is well known that the foundation manuscripts that Mantis uses were hand copied with errors dating from various times. Tong Bei using Back would be something that developed during the early Qing dynasty.
Bi using Arms was always used in more ancient times, synonymous with "long fist".

It is right to translate "Tongbi" as penetrating. The actual main tongbi technique in the Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets is a spear hand. And it is not the tip of the hand that is used, rather the whole arm is thrust out (like in Pi Quan of Five Elements) right past the throat of the opponent, so that the whole arm is choking his neck.
Like this: whole body movement is used from the ground up through spine to elbows, and the elbows thrust out to the hands. The first thrust deflects the incoming attack. The second thrust invades the opponent's space to unbalance him while a whole arm spears through along his throat, causing great shock and choking discomfort. The next thrust attacks and presses down, continuing the choke so that the blood flow is cut off and the person passes out. (one application).
So, yes, this would be a "long" technique to be used in the short range (as Mantis theory is known to say).

IF indeed Mantis is looking to Tongbei (back) for sure, then this is not General Han Tong's Tongbi or Shaolin Tongbi, but rather the Taoist style of Tongbei Quan that developed FROM Shaolin Quan by Priest Dong Cheng.
So, even though Mantis was using the "16 masters Sonnet" from Shaolin sources, it's not really getting the actual methods and techniques from it, it is getting them from the Qing Dynasty era Tongbei Quan, the White Ape style movements that are always used in the Tang Lang legends for when Wang Lang saw the Taoists practicing their martial art and he learned from them to finally merge Shaolin with Taoist Tongbei to develop Tang Lang (as the legend goes).I have seen some people say that they think it may be this Taoist Tongbei rather then Shaolin Tongbi. You would have to look at videos of the two styles and tell me which one you think is most closest to how Mantis actually employs the technique. This would make an interesting thing to check out.
I often see the Taizu Chang Quan in Mantis.
If indeed Mantis is using Taoist TongBei Quan, there should be some overlap with Taiji Quan, because it developed from Tongbei Quan. AND, I have heard quite a few Mantis people say that they have seen this overlap. I think both styles have a similar Elbows routine, for one.
(By the way, Taoist Tongbei Quan is a merger of Shaolin Quan [Priest Dong Cheng had learned Shaolin Wu Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan] and Taoist 13 Soft Skills)

Confusing, I know, but worth further investigation and discussion.

Please don't think that I am positioning myself as the Grand Poopah expert and so on. I am fully open to learn more, I am just presenting you what I have ready so far in doing research and my present opinions (which are open to change as more info comes in over time).

Oh, I forgot something interesting. Han Tong in some sources is mentioned as having a hunched back from an early illness!
Perhaps that contributed to his unique fighting style / technique?

[Tainan Mantis]

What the are roots of Han Tong's Tong Bei in Mantis are I can not say.

Here is some more information on the arm vs back character. Usually, I don't read to much into this distinction for several reasons.

arm pronounced 'bi' has the alternate pronunciation of 'bei' making it sound like back.
dialect differences in pronunciation
lack of high literacy in martial artists over the years would explain confusion between arm and back characters.


But, in Mantis there is something you might find interesting.

Within the above mentioned manuscript of 'Seven Long" is something called Connected Fist (Lian Quan). Connected Fist is interesting for several reasons. First of all it uses all the terminology that is explained within the Short Strike Manuscript such as the 24 keywords of short strikes, seven long and eight short, moves from the eighteen masters, eight hard and twelve soft etc.

Connected Fist is written as 64 lines of 7 character verse. It emphasizes entering gates and it also identifies each 7 character line as a gate. It is broken down into three sections which are:

32 gates for the central gate
16 gates for the left gate
16 gates for the right gate


It is the 16 gates to left and right that interest us here.

The complete name of the left gate is
Left Sixteen Gates Piercing Ear Defeats Through the Arms Hand Method Essential Key

The right gate is
Right Sixteen Gates Through the Arms Defeats Piercing Ear Hand Method Essential Key

In both cases 'arm' instead of 'back' is used. But what is interesting is that in the actual techniques, the 7 character verse descriptions, 'back' instead of 'arm' is used.

Example:
Following step raising hands ear piercing fist,
Raising step hang on face add tong bei(back).

another:
Hook and pull tong bei connects three palms

So we have two instances of arm and two of back. I don't think that this is a mistake. Arm is used in the title and back is used in the description. Unfortuneatly I only have the one version of this manuscript and as far as I know this form no longer exists.

The piercing ear that battles with Tong Bi is within 18 Surnames of Masters as being passed on by Tan Fang. have not found out any information on him so far.

Within this Connected Fist all the moves of 7 Long can be found. Can Han Tong be attributed to these techniques or, would ancient popular novels such as Fei Long Zhuan and Shui Hu Zhuan be a possible source of why semi famous generals are listed as founders of styles and techniques?

Kevin

[Sal Canzonieri]

What the are roots of Han Tong's Tong Bei in Mantis are I can not say.

Here is some more information on the arm vs back character. . . .

So we have two instances of arm and two of back. I don't think that this is a mistake. Arm is used in the title and back is used in the description. Unfortuneatly I only have the one version of this manuscript and as far as I know this form no longer exists.

Very interesting.

Well, for one thing, the Tongbi Quan and then Tongbei Quan that developed from Shaolin Quan through Priest Dong Cheng usually catalogs their full amount of training material into 108 different methods and uses 24 Sanda ‘free fighting’ techniques. :
a - 108 methods (which is what Qi style tongbei Quan comes from)
b - 24 techniques (which is what Shi Tongbei Quan comes from).

The description you give of the 24 short strikes is very close to Tongbei Quan's own way of describing their 24 characters techniques.

Shaolin called this all Duan Da.

In the Henan Shaolin area, there exist two sets that exhibit similar theory to that of the Luohan Xing Gong Duanda book, namely the ‘Shaolin Duanda’ (containing 19 sections) and the’ Jiao Shou Shiliu Shi’ (Crossing Hands in 16 Positions).

The Luohan Xing Gong Duanda Tuo Pu makes a point of saying that the foundational material is based on the Taizu Long Fist (which was also then called ‘32 Shou Duanda’ – ‘32 Hands Close Strikes’) and the Tongbi of Han Tang (who was an army general stationed at the Shandong gate that died in the battle against Zhao Kuangyin’s rebel forces that made him become Song Dynasty Emperor ‘Taizu’). The book has key text on how this long fist is short strike and vice versa. In the Shandong area, Taizu Hong Quan was a popular Ming Dynasty martial art. In the more ancient Henan Shaolin tradition it is related to, the Song Taizu Chang Quan also is a long fist style that fights in the short range, using a flowing fist (Hong Quan) method that overwhelms the opponent. The actual name for the Shaolin Song Taizu Chang Quan set is ‘San Er Shou Duanda’ – ‘32 Hands Close Strikes’.

How something similar via Shaolin got to Shandong and to the very village area where the earliest mentions of Tang Lang Quan come from is as I have said before:

At some point during the Ming-Qing transition era, Shaolin monks traveling in the Yingkou area of Liaoning province, in northeastern China, passed on a system of what appears to be sets from Mi (Zong) Quan and Shaolin Wu Quan to Cheng (Sheng) Lixian (盛力先) of Shandong province. The system he brought home and practiced in the Laizhou (莱州) village was later named as the ‘Shaolin Meihua Men’.

Some of the sets that they practiced were:
Taizu Quan – Great Ancestor Boxing, 太祖拳
Tang Lang 13 Zhao – Preying Mantis 13 Provocations, 螳螂十三招
Xiao Hu Yan – Small Tiger Swallow, 小虎燕
Yuejia Chui – Yue Family Strikes, 岳家捶 (which is the Duan Da - short strikes)
Heihu Quan – Black Tiger Boxing, 黑虎拳
Meihua Quan – Plum Flower Boxing, 梅花拳
Da Hong Quan – Big Flood Boxing, 大洪拳
Zui Ba Xian Deng - 8 Drunken Immortals, 醉八仙等; among others.
The weapon sets were Taizu and Plum Flower based implements: 梅花刀, 梅花剑, 行者棍, 梅花枪, 梅花叠鞭, 虎尾三节棍 (即宋太祖盘龙棍), 八卦游龙剑, and 虎头双钩等.

The earliest known person to practice Tang Lang Quan in Shantong (and he didn't even call it that, did he?) was Li Bingxiao in the 1700s, who lived in Xiao Chishan village in Laiyang County. Li Bingxiao became known as Li Ergou or "Two Hooks Li" and also "Old Man with Two Hooks" (Ergou Ye), from using Praying Mantis "hooking" techniques. Perhaps his knowledge came from the Shaolin material that Cheng (Sheng) Lixian had brought to the Laizhou area of Shandong?

[Sal Canzonieri]

The piercing ear that battles with Tong Bi is within 18 Surnames of Masters as being passed on by Tan Fang. have not found out any information on him so far.

Within this Connected Fist all the moves of 7 Long can be found. Can Han Tong be attributed to these techniques or, would ancient popular novels such as Fei Long Zhuan and Shui Hu Zhuan be a possible source of why semi famous generals are listed as founders of styles and techniques?

Kevin

Well, just about everyone in the Master's List comes from Shandong, and even in the Shaolin records about the meeting that Fu Ju in the year 962 had with former generals of Song Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin called in as advisers to redevelop Shaolin Quan. Zhao even assigned a specific general to oversee the whole project. (I have his name in my book, I'll have to search for it, if you want it).

Starting with two foundational materials called ‘Taizu Chang Quan’ and General ‘Han Tang’s Tongbi’ (Through the arm boxing), 16 masters and their inspirational skills are listed; they appear to be from the Song dynasty era and many were from Shandong. Also some are known from various fictional novels of martial arts heroes, though they may have historical counterparts. One person listed, Gao Huaide, was an actual famous Northern Song general and also the brother-in-law of Emperor Zhao Kuangyin. Another person listed, Zheng En, is mentioned in the History of the Song as being a regional commander that died in the 4th year of the Jianyan Reign (1130 AD) at the beginning of the Southern Song dynasty. The fictional Zheng En is described as a general living during the beginning of the Song Dynasty (around 960). Even a Wen Yuan and his Duan Quan (Short fist) is listed, alluding to the Song era Wen Family, from whence Ba Shan Fan and Chuojiao are said to come from and of which Duan Quan is part of their system (and are mentioned in General Qi Jiguang’s Ming era book).

The famous and real Southern Song era teacher of Yue Fei, Zhou Tong, is considered the Chuojiao teacher of two of the people listed: Lin Chong and Lu Chunyi (plus his famous legendary student Yan Qing is also listed). Many people think that the Lu Chunyi and Yang Qing mentioned on this list are from the fictional “Water Margin” Ming era novel. But, according to family records of the Lu family that practices Yan Qing Boxing, these two people were actually from the Song dynasty and are were actual people, whose lives do not fit what the characters in the Water Margin book did. Perhaps that the novel based its characters on them, it is not known.

As I am sure that you know (posted more for other people's benefit):

This material is considered to have come from the efforts of Shaolin martial monk Abbot Fu Ju (福居), as written in the Luohan Xing Gong Duanda (罗汉行功短打) Tuo Pu (Arhat Exercising Merit Short Strike Illustrated Manuscripts). The book states that Shaolin martial monk abbot Fu Ju invited various martial arts masters three times for three years each (3x3=9), to help improve Shaolin’s martial arts, been received by a Wang Lang from the Shaolin area of Henan province sometime between the Song and Ming dynasties. Someone nicknamed “Wang Lang” had picked up their skills along with some Shaolin Quan, first developed a Praying Mantis style that eventually spread through Shandong province. A later variation of this book was called the Shaolin Robe and Bowl Authentic Transmission and it attributed to someone called Sheng Xiao Dao Ren; two versions may exist from 1762 and 1794.
Some say that various sources independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history collaborate with this information. Two books that survived the fire when Shaolin monastery was burned down in 1928 are: the "Records of Shaolin Monastery" (Shaolin Si Zhi) - written by Ye Feng, who lived from 1623-1687, and the "The Record of Shaolin Boxing". Both books have the same information about these same events from the beginning of Song Dynasty. One of the Shaolin monastery books provides almost the same list (with names in a different order) and ends it with the concluding passage, "All these were gathered and brought together by Chan (Zen) Master Fu Ju from Shaolin monastery." (Ilya Profatilov, History of Praying Mantis Kungfu article).
The book Manuscript of Shaolin Boxing said that the Great Song Emperor visited the Shaolin Temple and sent famous generals to Shaolin to teach monks about the art of war and at the same time learn from Shaolin’s Martial Arts. The Shaolin Annals of Martial Arts Monks records “The Great Emperor of Song Dynasty, Zhao Kuangyin, as a grandmaster of Kung Fu. He supported the head abbot of the Shaolin Temple and helped organize three National Competitions of Martial Arts for monks, his generals, and folk martial experts.” This represents the first time in history that a national level tournament combined the talents of Shaolin, the military and civilian martial expertise. In total, 16 formal systems came together and competed, with 13 different people staying for three years each to advise them (according to the Shaolin Records book). This makes sense since after subtracting Taizu and Han Tong leaves 16 people, then subtracting the three inspirational people of Lin Chong, Yan Qing, and Liu Xing, leaves 13 people.
The names of the 18 methods from the Shaolin source are:

1. Taizu Chang Quan Qi Shou (Ancestral Long Fist Rising Hands)
2. Han Tong’s Tong Bi Wei You (Through Arm Serves Excellently)
3. Zheng En’s Chan Feng You Miao (Binding Seal Especially Clever)
4. Wen Tian’s Duan Quan Geng Ji (Short Fist More Unusual)
5. Ma Jie‘s Duanda Zui Jia (Close Strikes Best [Most Fine])
6. Kong Heng‘s Hou Quan Qie Sheng (Monkey Fist Also Flourishes)
7. Huang Hu's Kao Shen Nan Jin (Leaning Body Difficult To Approach)
8. Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang Ji Fei (Face Palm Swiftly Flys)
9. Jin Xiang's Ke-Zi Tong Quan (Knocking Through Fist)
10. Liu Xing's Gou Lou Cai Shou (Hook Pulling/Embracing Picking Hand)
11. Tan Fang's Gun Lie Guan Er (Rolling Thunder Piercing Ears)
12. Yan Qing's Nian Na Yue Bu (Sticky Hold Leaps Not)
13. Lin Chong’s Yuan Yang Jiao (‘Mandarin Duck’ Kicks)
14. Meng Huo's Qi Shi Lian Zhang (Seven Forces/Postures Linking Palms)
15. Cui Lian's Wo Guo Pao Chui (Nest Confining Cannon Hammers)
16. Yang Gun's Kun Shou Lu Zhi Ru (Tying Hand Capture Vertically Enters)
17. Wang Lang’s Tang Lang Ke Di (Praying Mantis Subdues Enemy)
18. Gao Huai De's Shuai Liu Ying Beng (Throwing Grab Hard Collapse)

In the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual (Tanglang Quanpu) recorded the late 1700s, the unknown author provides this list (as one can see, some of the names are different from the Shaolin version and they are told in a different order. Also in the Shaolin version Wang Lang’s is just another technique, nothing is said about it being the culmination of all the others, as in the Praying Mantis version.):

1. In the beginning there was "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of emperor Taizu.
2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong's considered parental.
3. Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.
4. "Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable.
5. It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).
6. The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tong Quan) of Master Jin Xiang.
7. The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.
8. The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.
9. The "Short Boxing" (Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.
10. The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.
11. The "Cotton Fist" (Mien Quan) technique of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.
12. The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) technique by Master Huai De.
13. The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gun lou guan er) of Master Tan Fang.
14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick” (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.
15. The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.
16. "Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.
17. The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Pao Chui) by Master Cui Lian.
18. “Praying Mantis (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques.

The problem is that before the Ming era, there is an empty gap of 800 years where there is little information available about martial arts. With the Jin invasion during the later Song Dynasty (and the Song house moving south) and then the Yuan Dynasty Mongol invasion soon after, there were much war time and much moving around and much hiding out. Many temples were burned down, between the invaders and the big fights between Taoists and Buddhists, there was lots of turmoil. Also much information was lost during the many periods of temple burning, book burnings, and the events of the Cultural Revolution, all destroying much valuable information.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's quote from my forthcoming book that is relevant:

"Describing the Six Harmonies, Li Shiming wrote, “The heart harmonizes with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe. Six basic forms, each form with the ability to evolve into 12 forms, the 12 forms are still able to be returned back to each parent form.” It was treasured by the Shaolin monks for generations. In addition, he also taught the ‘Secret 24 Character Formula.’ Within this ’24 Character Formula’ is the sentence, ‘Tongbi is famous for its dodging; Xinyi is good at evasion.’ Li's disciple, Ma Xueli, the founder of Luoyang Xinyi Quan, and grand disciple, Ma Sanyuan, visited the temple too. Today, the Ma family Xinyi Ba set and the Shaolin Xinyi Ba still appear to share many features, postures, and movements, showing that they arise from a common source."

This shows that Shaolin has had the Secret 24 Character Formula for a long time (these people are from the 1600s) and it was related to the new Tongbi Quan that influenced Ji Longfeng's creation of Xinyi Liuhe Quan (via Priest Dong Cheng, from Ji's visits to Qianzai Temple. Thus, Shaolin received this teaching from outside, but over time through Shaolin it further spread to other areas, such as Shandong.

[LFJ]

this video shows how the xiaotongbiquan sets run into each other as one. this is the first two together:
http://www.56.com/u50/v_MjA3MjQ4MzE.html

i dont like how its being done, but you get the point.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I got the remaining Shi Yongxin books yesterday.

Looking at
Yi Lu Tongbi Quan:
- The set shown in Shi Yongxin's book is the exact copy of the Yi Lu Tongbi Quan shown in Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book. All movements are the same (except once in a while one faces the opposite direction during a movement, not a big deal).

- the version of the set shown in the Shaolin Encyc. is different, it is shorter, missing the ending section shown in both Shi Yongxin's book and Liu Zhenhai's. Also, in some sections the movements are totally different or not in the same order.
So, this version doesn't match up too well after the first section it goes astray.

- The Xiao Tongbi in the Tagou books is way shorter, much simpler, gets mixed up in the middle as well.

My vote is that the most accurate version is the Shi Yong Xin/Liu Zhen Hai books version. It is the longest, about 76 postures, and shows most transitional movements.

What I want to know is, these people who make these books all live in very close proximity to each other, whereas we in this forum live thousands of miles away from each other. Why can't they get together and hash out what the definitive set is?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Now, looking at the Da Tongbi Quan:

First, there is an interesting note at the beginning of the book, which says something important. It says that the origin of the Da Tongbi Quan set goes way back to the early Song dynasty when Fuju was developing a compendium of Shaolin martial arts (you know the story). At that time, Fuju used a "discourse" by General Han Tong called "The Routine of Datongbi Boxing" and incorporated it into Shaolin. From then on many people practiced this set and tried to improve on it. Eventually, this led to the current version that exists today.

- In comparison to the version in Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book, Liu's version is again much longer and much more complex, it is 32 postures and Shi Yongxin's is only 28 postures. In the last section, the two versions stray far from each other before coming back in and matching up again. Shi Yongxin's version has more kicks and some different moves too. It seems if you put the two together you would have one complete version of the set.

- The version in the Shaolin Encyc. is the most closest to the Shi Yongxin version. They mismatch very rarely.

- The Tagou version is pretty much the same as the Shi Yongxin and the Shaolin Encyc. for once, but again it looks simplified at time in movements.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, well, the three vcds for Yi lu, Er lu, and San lu, don't all at match up to the standard Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan set at all.
These three sets are some totally different routines, they seem to be one complete routine if done together.

In his Shaolin Da Lu book, he called all three sections of the standard Xiao Tongbi Quan just the Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set.
He shows a Tongbi Quan ER Lu set in the book, but it too doesn't match up to anything I have seen in these three VCDs; instead it is like the Da Tongbi Quan set.

So, I don't know what Xiao Tongbi Quan these three VCDs are showing. nor why it is called "xiao".
When I get the chance I will convert and edit to show the sets on YouTube.

Strange, but something seems familiar about his three VCD sets though.
Like I have seen them before under a different name somehow.

Maybe I saw some Wugulun school tongbi sets that are like these?

[LFJ]

thats what i was talking about. i havent seen the individual vcds, but on the performance vcd, i dont recognize these at all.

and the second road was in fact footage from the dahongquan sanlu. is the individual vcd different?

[Sal Canzonieri]

thats what i was talking about. i havent seen the individual vcds, but on the performance vcd, i dont recognize these at all.

and the second road was in fact footage from the dahongquan sanlu. is the individual vcd different?

Yes. the individual Er Lu was different that da hong quan san lu.
It looked more like a Pao Quan set.

[LFJ]

Maybe I saw some Wugulun school tongbi sets that are like these?

their stuff is sometimes hard to see, the way their body mechanics distort the form.

this one you posted of shi dejian on beams has him doing xiaotongbiquan at the beginning. you said it looks like a laohongquan set, but look closely. the first part is xiaotongbiquan yilu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5H1iFbG4s&feature=related

[Sal Canzonieri]

their stuff is sometimes hard to see, the way their body mechanics distort the form.

this one you posted of shi dejian on beams has him doing xiaotongbiquan at the beginning. you said it looks like a laohongquan set, but look closely. the first part is xiaotongbiquan yilu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5H1iFbG4s&feature=related

Yes, I see what you mean, thanks, I'll fix it.
Although, what I meant was how it moved was like Laohong quan. To me anyways. But, yep, your keen eye caught it again, cool!

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys!

Just watched the LiuZhenHai 'xiaotongbi 1+2+3'.

Ok, this is really interesting!

first of all these three forms should be together as one.

Second, we all know Da TongBi right? As deyang does it?

Watch Liuzhenhais xiao tongbi yi lu again. It is Da tongbi quan!!! This may be a little difficult for you to see at first. but I can assure you. Keep watching through all 3 forms. YOu can see that the Da Tongbi set that many of us practice today (actually the most common shaolin form) is in fact an abreviation of this long set by liu zhen hai. Datongbi as deyang does it is mainly liuzhenhais yi lu but also contains some moves from er lo as well.

At first watch your gonna say 'what the hell is he talking about?!' but watch again and again and you will see it. It is the same series of applications (it helps I have about 5 versions of Datongbi under my belt so i can see it).

This is fascinating. It adds weight to the claim that liuzhenhai really has the oldest versions of forms. This is the only time I have seen this.

So His 1+2+3 are one form and is the set from which are modern Datongbi has been abreviated. I would suggest the modernDatongbi came from this set a very long time ago however.

This is really interesting, I will have to find his disciple to study this set.

[LFJ]

At first watch your gonna say 'what the hell is he talking about?!' but watch again and again and you will see it. It is the same series of applications (it helps I have about 5 versions of Datongbi under my belt so i can see it).

what the hell is he talking about?!

sorry, i dont really see it. i know several versions of datongbiquan as well. they do contain many of the same applications, but thats to be expected. its tongbiquan. but this set doesnt have many of the techniques from datongbiquan, and vice versa.

it also doesnt follow the same pattern or sequence in any way, there are just common individual techniques. except for the opening sequence which appears midway through datongbiquan, but it is also the opening sequence for xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan, which are practically the same sets. but these are not tongbiquan.

watching it over and over only shows me that they are related, but not that they are the same set.

[RenDaHai]

Really don't see it?

Concentrate on Erlo. The erlo contains almost everystance of Datongbi. Even with the same ending kick sequence. The moves that are not contained in Erlo appear in yi lu. They even appear as the same short 2-3 move sequences as in da tongbi. Its difficult to see, especially because of the way its performed. But think of the short sequences.... Kick-pao quan-phoenix spreads wings, the drawing the bow posture, the wind through the ears-low attack.. well I can't describe the moves well but they are all there. A long time ago this was the same form i am sure. If they had this long form originally there would be no need for creating Da tongbi, it would also be copying heavily, it follows that Either Da tong bi is an abreviation of LZH 3 forms, or that the 3 forms are an extension of datongbi, either way it is from the same source.

[LFJ]

well, one problem is likely that i just have the performance vcd, not the individual ones. and on that vcd the erlu for tongbiquan is actually sanlu dahongquan. the editors apparently goofed. :confused:

[Sal Canzonieri]

Really don't see it?

Concentrate on Erlo. The erlo contains almost everystance of Datongbi. Even with the same ending kick sequence. The moves that are not contained in Erlo appear in yi lu. They even appear as the same short 2-3 move sequences as in da tongbi. Its difficult to see, especially because of the way its performed. But think of the short sequences.... Kick-pao quan-phoenix spreads wings, the drawing the bow posture, the wind through the ears-low attack.. well I can't describe the moves well but they are all there. A long time ago this was the same form i am sure. If they had this long form originally there would be no need for creating Da tongbi, it would also be copying heavily, it follows that Either Da tong bi is an abreviation of LZH 3 forms, or that the 3 forms are an extension of datongbi, either way it is from the same source.

Hmm, just for clarification's sake.

Let's say you are correct, then.

Liu Zhenhai's Xiao Tong Bi vcds are the expanded (original, maybe) version of Da Tong Bei.

Okay, then his book shows a Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set which is clearly a more defined version of all three sections of what most have called Xiao Tongbi Quan.

So, he has a full version of both:
-Da Tongbi (Xiao Tongbi Quan 1-3 vcds)
- Xiao Tongbi (Tongbi Quan Yi Lu book)

Also, his book has a really nice but different Tongbi Quan Er Lu set.
It's not like the Xiao and Da sets are at all.

It's not a long set, but different movements than the other two routines.
I don't think it is Nanyuang Tongbi Quan, since that is 3 sections and this Er Lu is one section.

When I finally get the chance, I will post Liu's three vcds on YouTube, so LFJ can compare them to other sets done by others.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, one problem is likely that i just have the performance vcd, not the individual ones. and on that vcd the erlu for tongbiquan is actually sanlu dahongquan. the editors apparently goofed. :confused:

ok, I posted all three of these vcds on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

So far, I haven't been able to see where Da Tongbi Quan is buried within.
These look like something different, even postures that aren't found in Da Tongbi Quan.

By the way, the Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set (3 sections) is EXACTLY the same in every way with Shi Yongxin's new book on Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, and both these sets are the same exact thing as Tagou book's Xiao Tongbi Quan.

[RenDaHai]

Ok, I'll make it easy for you:

Please bear in mind that when he performs some intermediate stances are cut out which others may emphasize. If we could see it broken down we would see more similarities. ALso note that when i count numbers I count a complete move as one move, so the drawing a bow double punch is counted as 1 move. Gong bu triple punch is 1 move etc.

LIU ZHEN HAI FORMS:

YI LU:

Move 1, parry and punch off front hand. same as Deyangs Da tongbei move 3.

Moves 2+3+4, kick, parry over head punch followed by tiptoe phoenix spreads wings. This is the same sequence as in Deyangs Da tongbei moves 6+7+8. This sequence appears a lot.

Move 7, Gong Bu Xie xing. Appears in Da tong bei as move 15.

Move 13, Ding/xu bu crossed palms. Appears as both 11 and 23 in Deyangs Da tongbei quan.

Move 18, Wind through the ears, same as DTB 24. Notice in this form he attacks low followed by wind through the ears. I n DTB it is wind through the ears followed by the low attack. One is in gong bu, on is on one leg, small difference.

This is on first look, there may be more. above is just yi lu, Look at er lu for the rest of DTB moves...below.


ER LU:

Move 12+13+14: two kicks-Slap the floor in Pu bu. This is the same move as in DTB move 17+18+19. Deyang does it with tiger claws, some do it with fists, its the same move.

Move 16, cross switch palms folled by low block. Appears in DTB as move 13. In DTB the block is in pu bu, in this it is on one leg, but the palm switch is the same. In this case the difference between one leg and xu bu is small.

Move 18, slap the elbow in Ma Bu. This is a very characterisitic move of DTB, appears in all versions of the form as move 14.

Move 22, ma bu punch with parry over head. Appears also as move 22 in DTB, some versions use gong bu. The move 21-22 in this form is a similar piece of shou fa to the three strikes after pu bu slap the floor in most DTB. Stances are different but i think it represents the same bit.

Move 23, Xu bu with fists guarding, like a western boxer might hold his hands 100 yrs ago. This appears in DTB as move 5.

Move 24, double strike, appears in DTB as move 20.

Move 27+28, xu bu with zuo shan hands follwed by parry and punch off front hand. Move 2+3 in DTB.

Move 30, xu bu low block, appears in DTB move 13.

Move 33+34+35 same phoenix spreads wings sequence DTB 6+7+8.

Move 36+37, jump with ma bu parry follwed by drawing a bow double punch. This appears in DTB as move 9+10 (i count the double bow punch as 1 move).

Move 38 Ma bu slap elbow again, DTB 14.

Move 40, double push crossed palms, appears in some versions of DTB, but not Deyangs.

Move 41+42+43 Triple kicking sequence which appears at the end of most versions of DTB.

SAN LU:

San contains some similar moves, crossed palm in tiptoe, pu bu slap floor- double strike, drawing a bow double punch.

There are probably more similarities, but thats all I see for the moment. Without actually learning the form its hard to see. Clearly there are big differences, but given the nature of LZH's forms, I beleive this is an older version of DTB, or an interesting mid evolutionary stage. Da tong bei has always seemed strange to me as it doesn't go with the classic 3 form yi lu tong bei, and it is too short to represent a style in its own right. So this long form would really put it in context.

[LFJ]

okay, there are similarities, yes. they are tongbiquan sets. but i dont see how they are "the same set" just because they share the same movements, if they are all out of place and dont follow the same sequences, and have many techniques and sequences that dont appear in both. then they are clearly different sets of the same system.

just means they are related. perhaps these tongbiquan sets are older than the datongbiquan, or vice versa, and so share all of the same techniques. one could have been made by pulling from the other but they clearly arent the same sets.

almost every single one of those moves can be found in other sets as well. even some small sequences where they are linked together in the same way, such as the [slapkick + gongbu parry and punch + xubu phoenix spreads wings + mabu double punch drawing bow].

this exact sequence starts both xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan. the xiaomeihuaquan set even starts with the same xubu double fist technique that precedes the sequence in the datongbiquan set, which isnt in these tongbiquan sets.

almost every one of those other moves can be found in various places within hongquan, paoquan, other tongbiquan sets, etc.. in fact there are many moves that appear in hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets but not in the datongbiquan set at all.

i think it may be logical to say one came from the other, but not that this set is datongbiquan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, there are similarities, yes. they are tongbiquan sets. but i dont see how they are "the same set" just because they share the same movements, if they are all out of place and dont follow the same sequences, and have many techniques and sequences that dont appear in both. then they are clearly different sets of the same system.

just means they are related. perhaps these tongbiquan sets are older than the datongbiquan, or vice versa, and so share all of the same techniques. one could have been made by pulling from the other but they clearly arent the same sets.

almost every single one of those moves can be found in other sets as well. even some small sequences where they are linked together in the same way, such as the [slapkick + gongbu parry and punch + xubu phoenix spreads wings + mabu double punch drawing bow].

this exact sequence starts both xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan. the xiaomeihuaquan set even starts with the same xubu double fist technique that precedes the sequence in the datongbiquan set, which isnt in these tongbiquan sets.

almost every one of those other moves can be found in various places within hongquan, paoquan, other tongbiquan sets, etc.. in fact there are many moves that appear in hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets but not in the datongbiquan set at all.

i think it may be logical to say one came from the other, but not that this set is datongbiquan.

I have to agree with LFJ here.

And really you (RenDaHai) already did agree with LFJ in that you basically said that this 3 road Tongbi Quan set of Liu Zhenhai appears to be the more complete and fuller set. And, perhaps that it is older than the Da Tongbi Quan set.

That would mean that, while they aren't the same set (meaning the 3 section set as an expanded version of the Da Tongbi), the Da Tongbi set seems to be a closely related set, perhaps even sharing the same roots as this bigger 3 road set.

Because of the specific sequencing of its postures and having postures unique to this 3 road set, you really can't say that it is simply an expanded version of Da Tongbi (though that would have been a nice and easy fix), the most that can be said is that they appear closely related and share some roots.

What is really weird to me is that the sections end with the Lao Hong Quan salute (Shoot the Wild Swan posture). I have never seen that in either of the Shaolin Xiao or Da Tongbi Quan sets. Only in Shaolin Lao Hong Quan and in Yellow River Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist).

This 3 road routine is much closer to Hong Quan / Pao Quan postures as well. It makes it look much more older in origin, and perhaps it is. Hence you see Da Tong Bi Quan in it, and by that nature, Xiao Tongbi Quan should be apparent within it as well (which Liu Zhenhai and Shi Yongxin both call Tongbi Quan Yi Lu).

If this 3 road set IS the older set, it really should be much more like TZ Chang Quan (which means related to Hong Quan and Pao Quan - Song to Ming times) than the later developed sets (Qing times). And indeed this 3 road set does appear to share those attributes.

Shi Yongxin did say that the movements from current standard Da Tongbi Quan set were what's evolved from people playing with the original early Song era Hantong Tongbi Quan that Shaolin had adopted.

So, it can be possible that Liu Zhenhai's 3 road set is also derived from the same Song era Hantong Tongbi Quan material, perhaps an older version, from which Da Tongbi was eventually developed from or developed in parallel with.

From what I see, I think that Xiao Tongbi Quan / Tongbi Quan Yi Lu is a newer Tongbi Quan, developed from Ape boxing and other Shaolin sets.
And, Da Tongbi Quan and this 3 Road Tongbi Quan (which Liu calls Xiao TB) was directly developed from Hantong Tongbi Quan.

(Note, not to confuse General Hantong Tongbi Quan with Hongtong Tongbei Quan from Shanxi province.)

Page 155 and 156 of Shaolin Encyc. (old version) has background info on Xiao Tongbei Quan (now called Yi Lu).
Page 172 has tiny bit of info on page 172.

[LFJ]

Page 155 and 156 of Shaolin Encyc. (old version) has background info on Xiao Tongbei Quan (now called Yi Lu).
Page 172 has tiny bit of info on page 172.

page 155's introduction to xiaotongbiquan basically only says that shaolin warrior monks combined the basics of xiaohongquan, dahongquan, and houquan to create it. then goes into the characteristics of the style. the rest of page 155 and 156 are just the poem and lyrics.

172 on datongbiquan only says that it was created on the basics of xiaotongbiquan and dahongquan. no more historical information on either.

this three road tongbiquan from liu zhenhai seems to be more closely related to the old hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets, than do the xiao and datongbiquan sets we're used to. as if it were created in parallel.

[Sal Canzonieri]

page 155's introduction to xiaotongbiquan basically only says that shaolin warrior monks combined the basics of xiaohongquan, dahongquan, and houquan to create it. then goes into the characteristics of the style. the rest of page 155 and 156 are just the poem and lyrics.

172 on datongbiquan only says that it was created on the basics of xiaotongbiquan and dahongquan. no more historical information on either.

this three road tongbiquan from liu zhenhai seems to be more closely related to the old hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets, than do the xiao and datongbiquan sets we're used to. as if it were created in parallel.

okay, I asked you to translate for that reason.

Most Qing dynasty created sets were developed as a reconstruction of Ming era Shaolin. After 1765, people came back to Shaolin and reintroduced martial arts after being mostly a place that most used for religious practices (I think around 1735 the Qing government was pushing Shaolin to stick with religion and drop their martial arts traditions.).
Hence, you see in the Shaolin encyc. that a lot of sets were developed in the later Qing dynasty from the remnants of the Ming era sets (Chang quan, pao quan, luohan quan, etc.; Rou Quan was still practiced by in secret by the eldest monks).

So, also you can see that this 3 road Tongbi Quan of Liu's looks to be something that the folk masters preserved from an earlier time, outside what was newly being developed at Shaolin itself.
That's why I think that it is a lot closer to much older Shaolin quan that existed before the later Qing era.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Since Shi Yongxin's book on Tongbi Quan Yi Lu is exactly the same as Liu Zhenhai's books showing this set using the same name (which others call Xiao Tongbi Quan):

THEN, if Shi Yongxin does an Er Lu book, it should be exactly the same as Liu's book that shows an Er Lu set (which is like Da Tongbi, but not like his 3 roads Xiao tongbi VCD series). Again, it's a very different set than people have usually seen, it is a lot like Luohan Quan. It's a very cool set, I hope that Shi Yongxin does a book on it. It is a much fuller version of Da Tongbi Quan.

I hope he does many more books, especially since I have all of the one he did so far.
He said he was going to do 365 sets, ending with the weapons sets.

Maybe someone can find out if he is planning on issuing some more soon!

I would be great to see books on Luohan Yi and Er Lu, Tongbi Er Lu, that's for sure!

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys,

I probably have a slightly different view of what is a form from you guys. If you just mean the exact specific set of movements, then i see your point. But when i talk about a form I mean more than that, Every form is almost a substyle of shaolin in its own right. A form is not just a collection of techniques in a sequence, it has its own character, strategy, persona. When you practice one form enough you can understand something about the kung fu of the master who created that form. There is a lot more hidden in the form than just a few techniques. If it were just the collection of stances then there would be no need for the 700 odd forms in shaolin as most of the techniques are repeated many many times.

This Tongbei quan is unmistakeably the same style as Da tong bei. Da tong bei has always seemed out of place. Even if all its techniques are repeated elsewhere, DTB is different, but finally this is a sister form. It is certainly from the same style (and that style is not the same style as yi lu tongbei).

So I consider these the same form. I think if you knew the long one you would have no need of the other. (e.g If you know Dahong quan yi lu, then 4 lu by LZH is uneccessary. Its nice to know as it expands your knowledge of the specific style, but it doesn't contain anything new). So that is why I consider these the same form. Before you guys were saying it is unrelated to anything specific. But i think it is very closely related to DTB.

The ending stance is very interesting. I think it is more of a Date. I think forms in different Eras ended different ways. I don't htink it means it has to be related to the other forms that end with this stance, but it may date to the same era. Forms now adays tend to end in zuo shan, but before it was not a rule. Kan jia quan also tends to end with this stance.


On the books, I would REALLY like to know more about this Er lo tongbei quan by liuzhenhai. That sounds really interesting. He didn't do a VCD of it...... What other books did he relaese..... WHat MORE forms did he know?? The more I find out about him the more he seems to become the ultimate shaolin master of the last few decades.... and now I'll never get a chance to meet him :-(

By the way Yanzhuang said he had done enough books and wasn't preparing any others, so if there are more books in the Yongxin series expect them to be from different masters. (sorry to dissapaoint).


One more thing... Yong Wen Da shi referred to Yilu tong bi quan as 'mian zhang tong bi'.....?? I don't know much about shaolin mian zhang and have only ever seen one set ever, and i think that was another style of mian zhang imported into shaolin later rather than an old shaolin set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Guys,

I probably have a slightly different view of what is a form from you guys. If you just mean the exact specific set of movements, then i see your point. But when i talk about a form I mean more than that, Every form is almost a substyle of shaolin in its own right. A form is not just a collection of techniques in a sequence, it has its own character, strategy, persona. When you practice one form enough you can understand something about the kung fu of the master who created that form. There is a lot more hidden in the form than just a few techniques. If it were just the collection of stances then there would be no need for the 700 odd forms in shaolin as most of the techniques are repeated many many times.

This Tongbei quan is unmistakeably the same style as Da tong bei. Da tong bei has always seemed out of place. Even if all its techniques are repeated elsewhere, DTB is different, but finally this is a sister form. It is certainly from the same style (and that style is not the same style as yi lu tongbei).

So I consider these the same form. I think if you knew the long one you would have no need of the other. (e.g If you know Dahong quan yi lu, then 4 lu by LZH is uneccessary. Its nice to know as it expands your knowledge of the specific style, but it doesn't contain anything new). So that is why I consider these the same form. Before you guys were saying it is unrelated to anything specific. But i think it is very closely related to DTB.

I think that, from what you are saying here, we all really are saying the same thing in a different way.
I think that the three of us can at least agree that these sets were "cut from the same cloth", to put it another way. For sure they are related, closely.
Why? That's still to be learned. And the person that might be able to tell us has possibly died (maybe our questions would have perked up his spirit and he would have lasted a little longer, we'll never know).

The ending stance is very interesting. I think it is more of a Date. I think forms in different Eras ended different ways. I don't htink it means it has to be related to the other forms that end with this stance, but it may date to the same era. Forms now adays tend to end in zuo shan, but before it was not a rule. Kan jia quan also tends to end with this stance.

That's very possible, most of time this is true.

On the books, I would REALLY like to know more about this Er lo tongbei quan by liuzhenhai. That sounds really interesting. He didn't do a VCD of it...... What other books did he relaese..... WHat MORE forms did he know?? The more I find out about him the more he seems to become the ultimate shaolin master of the last few decades.... and now I'll never get a chance to meet him :-(

He published about 10 books, I have most of them. Each has at least one set that I have never seen before. Most have same sets as others but more transition movements shown.
yeah, I'd like to see the Er Lu Tongbi Quan somewhere else too.
That's why I was hoping that Shi Yongxin was going to do it in a future release of books. Why have an Yi Lu tongbi Quan and leave it at that or a San Lu Luohan and not show the Yi and Er Lu's?

By the way Yanzhuang said he had done enough books and wasn't preparing any others, so if there are more books in the Yongxin series expect them to be from different masters. (sorry to dissapaoint).

I think that they are going to be using different folk masters.
These books are way too deluxe and amazing to stop at these few. They are like teasers! they just make me want more!!!!

One more thing... Yong Wen Da shi referred to Yilu tong bi quan as 'mian zhang tong bi'.....?? I don't know much about shaolin mian zhang and have only ever seen one set ever, and i think that was another style of mian zhang imported into shaolin later rather than an old shaolin set.

OKAY, now that I find VERY significant historically! Because that would put things in perspective.
Being a 'Mian Zhang tongbi quan' would be placing the set (much like Shi Yongxin said that the original movements from Da Tongbi came from Hantong Tongbi material that was from early Song era times of Fu Ju's survey of masters and creation of Shaolin sets from this meeting.) during the times of the Song era masters meeting, since Mian Zhang was one citation made (specifically: "Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang Ji Fei (Face Palm Swiftly Flys) ")."Tongbi" just meant a type of long fist technique during that time, hence there would be a Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang and a Hantong's tongbi quan and even others.

So, Shaolin Da Tongbi and Liu Zhenhai Xiao Tongbi 1-3 Roads would be derived from Fu Ju's injection of (General) Hantong's Tongbi quan into the formation of early Song era Shaolin quan

(NOTE: in light of my following posts, then what was saying here is most relevant, in that if Liu's Xiao tongbi Quan ER lu is the exact same set as Tai Zu Chang Quan Er Lu, THEN, indeed these sets are derived from when TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu was created, during the time of Fu Ju and the masters meetings and the subsequent set creations.)

and

Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan and Liu Zhenhai / Shi Yongxin & Shi Yan Zhuang Yi Lu Tongbi Quan would be from that same situation, derived from Song era Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang tongbi quan (nowadays people translate that as Cotton Palm, but it was written as Face Palm, a movement that fits when Song TZ Chang Quan and other sets have a 'face slap" movement. This is also seen in Song era Yue Fei Ba Shou routines, there is always this Face Slap movement. It is also found in many things that are said to be historically related, for instance Chen Taiji Quan, Tong BEI Quan, Shaolin Ape Monkey Quan, some Ba Shan Fan sets, and more.

That would make a lot of sense to me, considering all the material out there about Fu Ju and the different masters meetings starting in 961 (3 meetings of 3 years each, 9 years total).

[Sal Canzonieri]

This was pointed out to me by my KF friend Johan:

This video labeled - Shaolin Luo Han Pu Shen Shi Ba Shou - Arhat Protect Body 18 Hands :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAaj0_r85mM

is basically the same set as the Shaolin Da Tongbei Quan.
Some movements are a little different, some missing and ends much sooner.
Compare to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

This made me think:

If maybe this were the original version of it (as preserved in this lineage), then it should be shorter, 18 postures, which it is. It is should be missing the postures added from Ape-Monkey Boxing and other sets incorporated into Da Tongbi Quan.

Maybe this was the Luohan Quan core from which Da Tongbi Quan was developed from?

But, I remembered I had another video of the Luohan Pu Shen set, and it is different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

---------------

New development:

This set from the video link is embedded in the first third of Liu Zhenhai's Tongbi Quan Erlu set, which is shown in his Shaolin Da Lu book!
So, that would mean that his Er Lu is a more detailed Da Tongbi Quan set?

Liu's set from the book has a different salute that happens before the salute shown in Shi Yongxin's Da Tongbi Quan yellow book.

Man! This was like finding a skeleton key and it opening a bunch of hidden doors!

Once you start at the right place, Liu's Tongbi Quan Er Lu set is for sure the Da Tongbi Quan set, but with missing movements that fill in between the Shaolin and Tagou version's postures.
Liu's has 32 postures, and 46 movements!
Shaolin's has 27 postures and much less movements.

Well, another mystery solved, as far as what the Tongbi Quan sets in Liu's Shaolin Da Lu book are.
Xiao Tongbi Quan (74 postures / 100 movements!) = Yi lu Tongbi
and Da Tongbi Quan (32 postures / 46 movements) = Er lu Tongbi

I, at this point, feel that his book routines are the most complete.
You can easily see how they contain the necessary transition movements between the postures. Routine after routine.

Thanks Liu Zhenhai (from wherever you are watching).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, now things are getting weirder!

My friend Johan, Shaolin teacher in Spain, translated the names of the postures from Liu Zhenhai's three Xiao Tongbi Quan vcds.
AND I discovered that the ER LU set on the vcd is almost identical to the Tai Zu Chang Quan ER LU set postures named in the lost routines section of the Shaolin Encyclopedia!!!!!
The postures not named as still there, just Liu uses a different way of saying the same thing.

(I made bold the postures that are exactly the same in this Er Lu as in TZ Chang Quan ER Lu and they are in the exact same sequence too! Whatever is not bold, Liu uses a different way to say it. A few postures (about 4-5) are missing in Liu's ER Lu set, but almost the whole routine is identical! Now we can see what this long lost Shaolin set looked like! I wonder if the Yi and San Lu are like other TZ sets? This San Lu is not at all like the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan San Lu set, except for the first posture.)

Here's Johan's translation of the 3 sets (I adjusted some misspellings, etc):

Shaolin Xiao TongBi Quan - Liu Zhenhai VCDs

YiLu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó Child worships the Buddha
2. 转身一拳 zhuǎn shēn yī Quan Turn body one fist
3. 侧脚探马捶 Cè jiao tàn ma chuí lateral foot explore horse hammer
4. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind the body
5. 弓步冲拳 gong bu chong quan gong bu rush fist
6. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
7. 蝎子尾右 Xíezi wei yòu scorpion tail right
8. 洛步斜行 luò bù xie xing descending step slanted step
9. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
10. 双?手 shuang liao/ca shou double sweep/leave hand
11. 转身 zhuan shen turn body
12. 迎面捶 ying mian chui face to face hammer
13. 转身单?手 zhuan shen dan gǎo?Shou turn body single ? hand
14. 上步枪手 shang bu qiang shou step forward spear hand
15. 退步十字手 tui bu shize shou step back cross hands
16. 上步冲天炮 shang bu chong tian pao step forward rush heaven cannon
17. 转身扳拳 zhuan shen ban quan turn body pull out fist
18. 猿猴束身 yuan hou shu shen ape monkey binds body
19. 插花十字手 cha hua shize shou insert flower cross hands
20. 起身碰腿 qi shen pèng tui rise body bump leg
21. 怀中抱月 huai zhong bao yue chest center embraces moon
22. 猿猴摘桃 yuan hou zhai tao ape monkey plucks peach
23. 双开弓 shuang kai gong double open bow
24. 下阴捶 xia yin chui down yin hammer
25. 三崩手 san bēng shou 3 collapse hands
26. 提手捶 di shou chui carry hands hammer
27. 冲右肘 chong you zhou rush right elbow
28. 肘顶七星 yun ding qi xing cloud over peak seven stars
29. 单鞭 dan bian single whip
30. 五花坐山 wu hua zuo shan 5 flowers sit on mountain
31. 童子拜佛 tong zi fen fu child prays to buddha

erlu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó child prays to buddha
2. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
3. 双?手 shuang lou Shou double pulling hands
4. 转身捶 zhuan shen chui turn body hammer
5. 迎面捶 ying mian chui face to face hammer
6. 转身单?手 zhuan shen dan jian? shou turn body single donating? Hand
7. 右侧脚 you cè jiao right lateral foot
8. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
9. 斜行式 xie xing shi slanted step posture
10. 转身崩腿 zhuan shen beng tui turn body toppling leg
11. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind body
12. 转身一掌 zhuan shen yi zhang turn body 1 palm
13. 退步一掌 tui bu yi zhang step back 1 palm
14. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
15. 蝎子尾右侧脚 xie-zi wei you ce jiao scorpion tail right lateral foot
16. 单叉式 dan cha shi single fork/insert posture
17. 起身连三拳 qi shen lian San quan rise body connect 3 fists
18. 交五花 jiāo wu hua intersecting 5 flowers
19. 亮支羽式 liàng zhi yu shi Show raised feather posture
20. 转身双捶 zhuan shen shuang chong chui turn body double rush hammers
21. 双分架 shuang fen jia double divide frame
22. 转?撑 zhuan ? cheng turn ? stab
23. 转身左抓提 zhuan shen zuo zhua di turn body left grab (w claw) lift/carry
24. 转身右抓提 Zhuan shen you zhua di turn body right grab (w claw) lift/carry
25. 探马拳 Tan ma quan explore horse fist
26. 连步一捶 lian bu yi chui connect step one hammer
27. 枪拳束身 qiang quan shu shen spear fist bind body
28. 起身双出捶 qi shen shuang qu chui Rise Body double leave hammer
29. 倒步 dao bu reverse step,
30. 斜行 xie xing slanted row
31. 起身?虎式 qi shen kua hu shi rise body stride Tiger posture
32. 上步一拳 shang bu yi quan advance step one fist
33. 退步连环拳 tui bu lian huán quan step back connected loop fist
34. 左右摆莲 zuo you bai lian left right swing lotus
35. 二起脚 er qi jiao two rising feet
36. 落底 探马拳 Luo di tan ma quan fall on bottom explore horse fist
37. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind body
38. 转身砸拳 zhuan shen za quan turn body smash fist
39. 双手开弓 shuang shou kai gong double hands open the bow
40. 转身裏 撑架 zhuan shen lǐ cheng jia turn body inside Stab frame
41. 转身双推掌 zhuan shen shuang tui zhang turn body double push palms
42. 右侧脚 you ce jiao right lateral foot
43. 蝎子尾旋风脚 xiezi wei xuan feng jiao scorpion tail whirlwind foot
44. 拉弓式 la gong shi shoot bow posture
45. 童子拜佛 tongzi fen fo child prays to buddha

sanlu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó child worships buddha
2. 转身双枪 zhuan shen shuang qiang shou turn body double spear hand
3. 退步十字手 tui bu shize shou step back cross hands
4. 上步砸拳 shang bu za quan step up smash fist
5. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
6. 白猴洗脸 bai hou xǐ liǎn white monkey washes face
7. 转身一捶 zhuan shen yi chui turn body one hammer
8. 迎面捶 yingmian chui face to face /headlong hammer
9. 上步连三捶 shang bu lian san chui step up connect 3 hammers
10. 转身单叉 zhuan shen dan cha turn body single fork
11. 起身双捶 qi shen shuang chui rise body double hammers
12. 转身右侧脚 zhuan shen you ce jiao turn body right lateral foot
13. 上步双推掌 shang bu shuang tui zhang step up double push palms
14. 虎步束身 hu bu shu shen tiger step bind body
15. 白猴洗脸 bai hou xi lian white monkey washes face
16. 转身上冲拳 zhuan shen shang chong quan turn body upper rush fist
17. 束身一拳 shu shen yi quan bind body one punch
18. 里扫腿 li sao tui inside sweep kick
19. 起身迎面 qi shen yingmian ? Rise body headlong ?
20. 原地一拳 yuán di yi quan level ground one punch
21. 外摆脚 wai bai jiao outside swing foot
22. 拉弓架 la gong jia pull bow frame
23. 坐山架 zuoshan jia sit on the mountain frame
24. 童子拜佛 tongzi fen fo child prays to buddha


Review the video of Liu's 3 sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

Now it makes sense why LFJ and I thought it was more related to Lao Hong Quan and so on, and why the sets looked so familiar to me: it is because these sets are from Shaolin TZ Chang Quan system!

And, other Chinese researchers have observed that Shaolin TZ Chang Quan, Hpng Quan, and Pao Quan were the source of Tongbi (and later Tongbei) Quan.

So, what does this mean about Shaolin Tongbi Quan?

Rendahai here pointed out that these three sets from Liu contain all the movements from the Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets.
Well, that would mean that the Xiao and Da sets were also derived from TZ Chang Quan, as some people's research has shown.
(and he already documented the better known Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan in his Shaolin Da Lu book, as Tongbi Quan Yi and Er Lu sets).

(By the way, the lost routines section of the Shaolin Encyc. has a bunch more Tongbi Quan sets described, but they are very unlike any of these Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets we have been talking about so far)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Compare Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu VCD set above to lyrics to the following TZ Chang Quan ER Lu (you can see that they match up!):

Er Lu Shaolin Chang Quan (2nd Road Shaolin Long Fist – Tai Zu)

1. Zhuan Shen Chong Tian Pao = Turn body Rush-toward Sky Cannon
2. Shuang Lou shou = both hug-pull hands
3. Zhuan shen chui – turn body hammer
4. Yin-Mian chui = face to face hammer
5. Zhuan shen yi chang = turn body one palm
6. You cai jiao = right trampling foot
7. Zuo cai jiao = left trampling foot
8. Xie xing beng toi = slanting shape stretch leg
9. Xiao su shen = small tighten body
10. Ke xiao-toi = knock/bump small-leg (calf kick)
11. Tui bu yi chang = back step one palm
12. Jin bu you chang = forward step right palm
13. Zuo cai jiao = left trampling foot
14. Zhuan shen you cai jiao = Turn body right trampling foot
15. Yue bu dan cha = leaping step single fork/branch
16. Lian san chui = connected 3 hammers
17. Jiao wu hua = Intersect 5 flowers
18. Liang-chi shi = Show wing position
19. Shuang tuo zhong = Both lift/support with palms the bell-clock (pendulum)
20. Shuang fen-pi = both apart split
21. Zuo quo shi = left wrap position
22. Shuang cheng zhou = both support/prop up elbows
23. Zuo zhua ti = left grasp+lift
24. You zhua ti = right grasp+lift
25. Dan yun ding = single cloud touch on head (peak/top)
26. You da chui = right strike hammer
27. Jia-qi chui = set up/erect lift hammer
28. Bao quan su shen = embrace/wrap fist close body
29. Shuang chu chui = both exits hammer
30. Dao bu = reverse (empty) step
31. Xie xing = slanted shape
32. Hai di pao = ocean bottom cannon
33. Kua hu shi = stride tiger position
34. Shang bu yi chui = lift-forward step one hammer
35. Tui bu yi chui = backward step one hammer
36. You yi chui = again one hammer
37. Shou bu yi chui = trap/gather step one hammer
38. Zuo bai lian = Left wave lotus
39. You bai lian = right wave lotus
40. Er qi jiao = two lift feet
41. Shan men pao = flash gate cannon
42. Wu hua shou = five flower hand
43. Xiao su shen = small close body
44. Ke xiao-toi = bump/knock small leg (calf)
45. Zhuan shen za chui = turn body bang hammer
46. Shuang shou kai gong = both hands open bow
47. Xiang you guo = towards right wrap
48. Shaung Cheng Zhou = both stretch elbows
49. Shuang fen pi = both apart split
50. Zhuan shen tui chang = turn body push palm
51. You cai jiao = right trampling foot
52. Xie-zi chi-wei – scorpion wing-tail
53. Xuan feng jiao = tornado feet
54. La gong shi = Pull bow position

[LFJ]

all i can say is thats pretty amazing! they match up exactly. same set.

now just why didnt these guys ever get together and compare what they had and straighten everything out? i'm sure they would have uncovered so much more together.

its kinda ridiculous how this is being done by non-chinese outside of the motherland, isnt it? :confused:

[Sal Canzonieri]

all i can say is thats pretty amazing! they match up exactly. same set.

now just why didnt these guys ever get together and compare what they had and straighten everything out? i'm sure they would have uncovered so much more together.

its kinda ridiculous how this is being done by non-chinese outside of the motherland, isnt it? :confused:

That's what I am amazed about myself! I just can't fathom that they hadn't discussed this amongst themselves, especially since I'm sure that they spoke when Shi DeQian was putting together the Shaolin Encyclopedia. He went traveling all over China and looked at all the hand copied Shaolin manuals that different lineages still possessed.

Well, at this point, I think that people in China should be talking to us so that people can get to the bottom of what is what.

okay, so Liu's VCDs are either misnamed, or the material is really from another source.

Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu set (why are they using "xiao" for these sets? Other than because they are indeed short sets?) clearly is the same set as this TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set (both Er Lu, weird).
Okay then, what are the Yi Lu and San Lu sets from?
So far I haven't been able to match up these sets, but they still seem to be familiar looking for some reason.

[LFJ]

well, unless they do know, but purposely obscure the material- still leaving just enough hints for those of us keen and enthusiastic enough to bother figuring it out. what fun would it be otherwise? :)

[Royal Dragon]

That's what I am amazed about myself! I just can't fathom that they hadn't discussed this amongst themselves, especially since I'm sure that they spoke when Shi DeQian was putting together the Shaolin Encyclopedia. He went traveling all over China and looked at all the hand copied Shaolin manuals that different lineages still possessed.

Well, at this point, I think that people in China should be talking to us so that people can get to the bottom of what is what.

okay, so Liu's VCDs are either misnamed, or the material is really from another source.

Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu set (why are they using "xiao" for these sets? Other than because they are indeed short sets?) clearly is the same set as this TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set (both Er Lu, weird).
Okay then, what are the Yi Lu and San Lu sets from?
So far I haven't been able to match up these sets, but they still seem to be familiar looking for some reason.


Reply]
These look familiar to me as well. I suspect I have something similar in my video archives. Maybe something from Jamie's Tai Tzu system? Maybe it's just because they have so much of the same flavor as Lao Hong, and Shaolin da hong?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Okay, just to complicate things even further, there is a new Liu Zhen Hai VCD out,
it is called Tongbi Quan, and it is not the same as the three ones we have been discussing.

It is demonstrated by the bald guy with beard (name escapes me at moment).

少林通臂拳-教学与実戦

AND

to top off the confusion there is another new one (same demonstrator), hah ha:

少林朝陽拳-教学与実戦

I haven't seen neither of these in stores in Chinatown NYC where I got the rest of his VCDs from.

[LFJ]

his name is shi xingsen (释行森).

on the demonstration vcd that shows all of the sets for which they have individual vcds, he demonstrates "tongbiquan" which is just the datongbiquan set. and the 朝阳拳 vcd is the standard chaoyangquan set.

this is the full video for chaoyangquan, with "apps".
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxOTc2NjEy.html

unless these vcds you're talking about are actually new and not just "new"...

[Sal Canzonieri]

his name is shi xingsen (释行森).

on the demonstration vcd that shows all of the sets for which they have individual vcds, he demonstrates "tongbiquan" which is just the datongbiquan set. and the 朝阳拳 vcd is the standard chaoyangquan set.

this is the full video for chaoyangquan, with "apps".
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxOTc2NjEy.html

unless these vcds you're talking about are actually new and not just "new"...

Thanks for the name reminder.

These two VCDs were the last two they made, I don't see them on CMAOD nor at Plum either. I haven't seen them in NYC either. I didn't have the demo VCD, since I had most of the other vcds. Well, I guess I need to find these, just to be complete.

So, if this is Da Tongbi, then it is Tongbei ER LU in Liu's book. His forms shown in the books are very detailed and so much more complete than any of their videos. Weird. Well, the videos go to the general public, whereas the books are for people that are more serious.
One of his Shaolin books is all over the Chinese used books sites right now, it has 5 Pao Quan sets detailed in it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, now that what's one Liu Zhenhai's Luohan Quan Vcds is figured out, we're still left with the final mystery of what these Tongbi Quan sets are.

Wish I can find something more about set 1 and set 3.

At least knowing that set 2 is Shaolin Chang Quan Er Lu points to something I hope.

I want to know what this means?

[Eugene]

is it safe to say that like, before one learns Da Hong Quan one must learn Xiao Hong Quan it is the same with Da Tong Bi Quan must be learned after Xiao Tong Bi Quan. And the Tong Bi as in De Yangs Demonstration.

Mr. Canzonieri deserves a stutue of some kind !

Its wonderfull that things get sort out !

I did not read somewhere why de Tong Bi Quan is the third routine in the 10 set but then again I didnt read all info to this day yet.

Does anyone have this experience with * Back Through Boxing * or Full arm Boxing ? That at the end of the routine energie fills the arms ?

And also with all respect, what makes these routines called Tong Bi if half the postures also excist in other routines ...because I am wondering if some postures excist in other sets how can it be called * Full Arm Boxing or Back Through Boxing * I am only thinking that this Energie going to the arms also happens in other sets maybe.

I really want to understand this Boxing method :)

Peace Eugene !

[Sal Canzonieri]

is it safe to say that like, before one learns Da Hong Quan one must learn Xiao Hong Quan it is the same with Da Tong Bi Quan must be learned after Xiao Tong Bi Quan. And the Tong Bi as in De Yangs Demonstration.

Mr. Canzonieri deserves a stutue of some kind !

Its wonderfull that things get sort out !

I did not read somewhere why de Tong Bi Quan is the third routine in the 10 set but then again I didnt read all info to this day yet.

Does anyone have this experience with * Back Through Boxing * or Full arm Boxing ? That at the end of the routine energie fills the arms ?

And also with all respect, what makes these routines called Tong Bi if half the postures also excist in other routines ...because I am wondering if some postures excist in other sets how can it be called * Full Arm Boxing or Back Through Boxing * I am only thinking that this Energie going to the arms also happens in other sets maybe.

I really want to understand this Boxing method :)

Peace Eugene !

No, Xiao firs, then Da in the Hong Quan.

But in Tongbi Quan, it is Da first, then Xiao.

Most of the Shaolin sets build upon previous sets learned, so that why you see some postures from other sets.
The sets are learned in the order of skills to be mastered.

If you practice the sets correctly, you don't have to worry about what 'energy' is doing what, it happens automatically.

Tongbi means really (not what most people say, because they don't understand how to translate concepts from Chinese to English) to "pierce through the arms".
It's concerned with getting power into the strike from the floor through the heel through the leg to the knee to spiral around the waist (intensify) through the spine to the shoulders through the elbows to the hands and out.

It's what a gibbon does when it swings from vine to vine. The gibbon has to reach out (pierce) and point. Watch some videos of this animal.

The more you do, the more you will understand.

As one of my teacher's teacher once said: "You do 20 times then you tell me if you have question".

[Eugene]

Sal Canzonieri ->>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k (old Shaolin way of doing the set - same as in Shaolin Encyclopedia, but with more transition movements shown. Longer and more detailed than Tagou version of this set. Still not as many postures and movements as Liu Zhenhai's Er Lu version, but very close.) THE BEST VERSION OF SHAOLIN DA TONGBI QUAN readily available to see.

Does this mean that the performence of the Da Tong Bi of this video, is the best version to see ? I am from Holland and my English is not in the best condition :)

Greetings from Eugene

[Eugene]

And btw Ty for your awnser, I will check some vids of a Gibbon :)

Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal Canzonieri ->>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k (old Shaolin way of doing the set - same as in Shaolin Encyclopedia, but with more transition movements shown. Longer and more detailed than Tagou version of this set. Still not as many postures and movements as Liu Zhenhai's Er Lu version, but very close.) THE BEST VERSION OF SHAOLIN DA TONGBI QUAN readily available to see.

Does this mean that the performence of the Da Tong Bi of this video, is the best version to see ? I am from Holland and my English is not in the best condition :)

Greetings from Eugene

Yes. it is, until something better comes along.

[Eugene]

Very Cool, because I love the way this old man does his set.

Greetings Eugene

[Eugene]

I have watched the old Da Tong alomost all day and noticed that after each blow or when he has a fist he, seems to grab some thing * maybe fruit * and goes into a fist again.

Especially when he comes up from 0:22 sec, the left hands grabs a apple lets say, or someones wrist, it has the move of an ape

at :27 secs he closes his hands into fist, or grabs something again

also from the 0:36 sec, he seems to grab something a bit far away, also maybe a apple or a wrist ??

The whole form seems to be on grabbing something, or taking something and then return it with blows, maybe I am way off this now, but ..... if it is of 1 % help to the Tong subject..

( I hope there is not a posture describing of these moves, then am screwd ! :P

Peace Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have watched the old Da Tong alomost all day and noticed that after each blow or when he has a fist he, seems to grab some thing * maybe fruit * and goes into a fist again.

Especially when he comes up from 0:22 sec, the left hands grabs a apple lets say, or someones wrist, it has the move of an ape

at :27 secs he closes his hands into fist, or grabs something again

also from the 0:36 sec, he seems to grab something a bit far away, also maybe a apple or a wrist ??

The whole form seems to be on grabbing something, or taking something and then return it with blows, maybe I am way off this now, but ..... if it is of 1 % help to the Tong subject..

( I hope there is not a posture describing of these moves, then am screwd ! :P

Peace Eugene

The rule is "when you reach out , always return with something back".

[Eugene]

Thanks again Mr, Canzonieri,

Is there any information available about the Da Tong Bi posutures set. ( the lyrics )

of Shi De Yang or this Old Monk ?

Greetings Eugene

[RenDaHai]

Hey Sal,

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

You posted i couldn't see before... Now i do I think it is really amazing. This really is the best Da tong bei I've seen. It also unites the differences in the wu gu lun form, without dropping any moves. It is such a great version. But you say liu zhen hais book is even better??

Do you know anything about the monk in the video?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks again Mr, Canzonieri,

Is there any information available about the Da Tong Bi posutures set. ( the lyrics )

of Shi De Yang or this Old Monk ?

Greetings Eugene

Yes, if you read Chinese.

But there is one book in Chinese and English of the set (exactly like the old man does it) that was published by Shaolin itself.
But, I don't know where you can get it on America. The book has a yellow cover.
step by step in english, in detail after detail, none better out there.
I ordered the whole set of 9 (or so) different books from Japan.

If you read the beginning of the Shaolin Tongbi Quan thread (do a search) here, there is tons of info about these books, also the same book series is mentioned in the Shaolin Luohan Quan thread.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

You posted i couldn't see before... Now i do I think it is really amazing. This really is the best Da tong bei I've seen. It also unites the differences in the wu gu lun form, without dropping any moves. It is such a great version. But you say liu zhen hais book is even better??

Do you know anything about the monk in the video?

Liu's version in his book has all the missing movements at the end of the set, and the transition movements between major ones.

This guy does it the best as far as videos go, it's very impressive.

I forgot who he is.
I think someone else had mentioned who he was.
someone's sure to know.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And btw Ty for your awnser, I will check some vids of a Gibbon :)

Eugene

best example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV-gOL4t9Vk

(other apes arms are too short to do this the same way)

Tongbi is like this, spear the arm out with whole body movement (hip swings from one side to other, like the center moving part of a washing machine does).

Now, these are called "Ape-Monkeys" in Chinese.

On the other hand, the style known as Tongbei Quan is based on the Yellow or Snowy or Hill Macaques, which live in the snowy mountain areas.

[RenDaHai]

@sal

Hey, You know the old guy from the Da Tong Bi video?

Well I just noticed that the same guy is on the intro sequence of LiuZhenHai's VCDs, performing a bit of xiao hong quan.

ANyway, by the looks of the video i think they must have a vcd of him as well! that would be awesome. Also it means he must be realated to LZH's lineage in some way. ALl the videos of him look slightly older, perhaps he is even LZH's master??

I'll do my best to uncover the mystery...

[Eugene]

HERE are the studens of the cool old man, I just came across it by accident, I was looking for Luohan and end up with Da Tong Bi ! haha ( I know this video is somewhere else on this forum )

http://crazymotion.net/shaolin-da-tongbi-quan/wUW4eGQwTNpcjAy.html

[LFJ]

yes, that one is on youtube as well.

this version fills in so many of the missing transitional techniques and postures. i like it a lot.

[Eugene]

I like it alot also, the video really stimulates me.

I dont know when this was recorded, maybe the 80s ? And the man looks like 70 maybe here, so he might have learned this form around 1920, like when he was 10 years....a really wild guess ...

I dont understand yet why Xiao Tong Bi is * a Big set *
And Da Tong Bi is a small set because of the names, I watched Liu his 3 Roads of Xiao , but I dont understand the Xiao of it.

How can I see a road ? Like a free way ? or like 3 different directions from a crosspoint also car speaking to understand it :)

Peace Eugene