Southern Similarities

[omarthefish]

I'm starting this thread to take the off topic part of a conversation I started in the WC forum that went no-where (because of the cool aid I think) and am thinking the topic deserves its own thread.

For those of you who have direct experience with more than one southern style, let's take a look at some of the similarities and also the differences. Which differences/similarities are superficial and which are profound. There's a lot of overlap between all of the southern styles and it's not for nothing that they are grouped together in one forum.

Since I cut my teeth in CMA in learning Hung Gar in San Francisco's Chinatown, I have direct experience with Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut and Wing Chun. I trained Hung Gar for about 8 years so that is my base but I also am very good friends with some of the top Choi Li Fut and Wing Chun guys in the city. HSK Warrior can confirm this. Heck, much of what I understand about Choi Li Fut I learned from him. My Wing Chun friends would probably rather not get pulled into an online discussion like this but he knows who they are.

Anyways...

Hung Gar vs. Wing Chun
similarities:
- Same stances. (with different emphais)
- Same basic vocabulary of hand "shapes" (Hung Gar is more varied but tan, wu, pak, lop and biu jee are prominently featured in both).
- Same emphasis on building or destroying bridges as apporopriate.
- Same use of centerline theory (although WC "obsesses" about it more)

differences:
- Hung Gar power generation places more emphasis on driving off the back leg; WC more on "wrist/elbow power" and on dan tian or "spinal whip" power.
- Hung Gar spends a lot of time transitioning between bow and horse stances; WC mostly sticks with the "goat stance" (in Hung Gar we call it a "figure 8" stance)
- Hung Gar incorporates a very broad range of tactics including many looping long arm movements; WC is almost exclusively "small frame".

Basically, from what I have seen so far, everything in WC can be extrapolated from Hung Gar material but not the other way around. Hung Gar is a broader system where WC tends to specialize. The overlap is mainly in the Hung Gar Crane and Snake techniques. To my mind, the differences are far more superficial than the similarities. They are mainly just matters of emphasis and are not absolute differences as both systems allow for a great deal of freedom of personal expression.

I know less of Choi Li Fut than Hung Gar but after training with Frank (HSK Warrior) for a while, I was fairly stunned how similar they can be at times.

Differences:
- Choi Li Fut is softer overall. More emphasis on "throwing" the fist out; Hung Gar "drives" it in.
- More sharply turned in front foot on bow stance; In Hung Gar you only turn it in slightly.
- More waist twisting in Choi Li Fut; Hung Gar uses waist power but on the bow-horse transition, for example, in Hung Gar you are more likely to lean forward on the bow stance for the punch; in Choi Li Fut a verticle spine is maintained much more strictly.

Similarities:
- Same 5 animal vocabulary and associated hand shapes.
- Very nearly the stances and use of stances. (minor differences here and there)
- "small frame" Choi Li Fut is startlingly similar to Hung Gar tiger movements.

Anyone else care to add their observations?

[hskwarrior]

i'm about to make a statement risking the idea i could be completely ignorant of some information, but, it seems when the north came and started teaching gung fu to southerners, it seems like ALL southern Gung Fu contains the same techniques, the only difference is the where its coming from. we all can have the same stuff, but its how we perceive it that matters. IMHO.

Hung Gar, Wing Chun, and OUR CLF, comes from Fut San, yet White Crane, Lama, looks sooooo very similar to to the previous 3.

and, omar, you still have a copy of the info in chinese i needed you to translate.....hahaha you skipped town with company records.

[hskwarrior]

It would be pretty interesting to see one system combined of Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut, and Wing Chun.......FUT HUNG CHUN!!!

[omarthefish]

Oh snap.

I'll take a look. I don't think I have that folder with me. If you can email me a scan I would still be happy to try and transcribe that stuff for you. At least with a scan I could zoom in. The thing you gave me looked like microfilm.

But yeah, Fut Hung Chun!!! lol.

I seem to remember Coach Ross saying something a while back about some particular Hung Gar master who actually did trade techniques with some old Lama guy. The implication was that the Hung Gar paahl choi and other long arm stuff actually does come directly from Lama.

[jdhowland]

Omarthefish, that's a nice, succinct comparison of three styles.

I have often pondered whether some Fukien styles should be classified as southern systems distinct from Cantonese styles. With so much mutual influence among southern styles it is difficult to separate their histories and features. I have seen southern lion that superficially resembles southern mantis and Fukien white crane, which may resemble some styles of small frame hung ga which...

Similarly, some styles of Fut Ga are hard to distinguish from Hung Ga or CLF or generic Siu Lam.

Tibetan White Crane, Hop Ga and Lama represent a migration of western styles into Gwangdung and can be lumped together as a separate branch of southern gung fu. But they picked up the nomenclature of Cantonese Siu Lam styles from their founders' experience with those systems, and the blending continues. Many of TWC headmaster Ng Siu Jung's students had been Hung Ga or CLF practitioners before getting into the Tibetan style. It is pretty well accepted that Wong Yan Lum's lama style had a huge impact on some teachers of other systems because of his personal accomplishments. Despite differences in theoretical approaches between the styles, I know of several Tibetan stylists who teach and/or train in a branch of lama and CLF simultaneously, considering them to be "sister styles." As a student in the '70s I heard about a supposed rivalry in Hong Kong between Hung Ga and Wing Chun as allied parties and CLF and TWC as the opposing family. Perhaps this was not widespread, but only involved certain schools. It serves to show that alliances are sometimes based upon recognized features in common and not upon lineage.

It seems to me that, in comparing superficial features, southern styles can be grouped into four or five types (of course, grouping is an intellectual exercise and has little to do with anyone's "reality). I'm not sure the same could be said about the huge variety of systems from the rest of China.

Be well.

jd

[kal]

Do all these similarities point to there being a likely common source for Southern CMA? Maybe the legends about a "Southern Shaolin Temple" do have some basis in fact after all?

[omarthefish]

Nah.

Take a look at some of the info jdhowland just added. There's a lot of historical overlap and interaction but there are no clear boundaries. It's more like there were just these really influential schools and ideas much like the way most MMA is so similar today. It grew out of a specific historical context. The various southern styles grew out of different, but equally specific, historical and cultural context. It's just like how you have slightly different strategies propagated by different MMA gyms but with everybody using basically the same vocabulary and differing primarily (although not exclusively) in their specialties and areas of emphais.

Same thing. LOT's of mutual interaction (ie. they fought each other a lot) and that's why you see far less overlap with the northern styles. IMO, it's just geography.

[jdhowland]

...it's just geography.


Absolutely.

[TenTigers]

Hung-Ga's short hand has many similarities to WC, SPM,Fukien/Hakka Kuen.
Hung-Ga's long hand has many similarities to Lama/Hop-Ga/Bok Hok, CLF.
We are the original Chop Suey!

[SavvySavage]

I believe that when these styles were developed during battles there were no names. Everyone just did martial arts. Then peace came and people started examining what they did and tried to make it different from everyone one else just to be special. So from that basis I believe there are no such things as styles.

If a hung gar guy was fluid like choy lee fut which one is he doing? I was chi saoing once and the other guy told me my energy felt like southern praying mantis since he plays with a lot of them. He was off the mark a bit as I've only barely studied southern mantis.

A common criticism from the mma community is that we have all these "different" styles that look the same when fighting(looks similar to kickboxing). That seems to be true if you wanted to look at kung fu objectively with an open mind. I don't think the problem is that kung fu looks like kickboxing when we fight but the problem is that kung fu people perpetuate this different style/look mentality. Then there is a superiority complex within the Chinese martial arts but now I think I'm getting of topic.

Then there are those that say you can "feel" the difference in styles when touching hands. These "feelings" are based off of stereotypical ideas of a style. Kung fu stereotypes: Hung kuen is hard, southern mantis is soft, choy lee fut is fluid, ba gua feels circular, hsing i is explosive, tai ji is soft. People use these imaginary terms to try to define or demonstrate differences when really all kung fu styles have all of these qualities at different times and which manifest differently in different people.

[TenTigers]

before there was Hung-Ga, CLF,Wing Chun, etc there was Siu Lum, Fut Ga, Lo-Hawn Kuen-generic names. The marketing came later-much later.

[Mano Mano]

They’re just all part of the spectrum that is CMA.

[omarthefish]

before there was Hung-Ga, CLF,Wing Chun, etc there was Siu Lum, Fut Ga, Lo-Hawn Kuen-generic names. The marketing came later-much later.

You know, I've never even heard YC Wong say that he teaches Hung Gar. When people come in to the school to ask what sort of kung fu he teaches, he gives them the same answer he gave me: "Southern Shaolin".

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have read all sorts of stuff concerning CMA and Gung Fu, but I think most of it is simply made up and represents very little of the actual truth. Marketing or whatever, but when dealing with Chinese history we can get some real BS. One thing I can say for certain is that in 1955 WC was called Hung Fa Wing Chun or just Hung Fa by everybody I knew that practiced it. So called after a fellow by the name of Hung. And this version at least came out of Canton, China.
I wish I knew something about Choy la fut or Hung Gar, but I don't.

Chiang

[Tid Sin]

Great discussion! Just thought I'd add that ;) <sits back in the corner> lol

[Hendrik]

In the surface, everything can look similar.
But what is deep under?

[Hendrik]

I have read all sorts of stuff concerning CMA and Gung Fu, but I think most of it is simply made up and represents very little of the actual truth. Marketing or whatever, but when dealing with Chinese history we can get some real BS. One thing I can say for certain is that in 1955 WC was called Hung Fa Wing Chun or just Hung Fa by everybody I knew that practiced it. So called after a fellow by the name of Hung. And this version at least came out of Canton, China.
I wish I knew something about Choy la fut or Hung Gar, but I don't.

Chiang



Could you please share with us where and who do you learn your WCK? Which lineage?

[Hendrik]

http://www.tigercrane.com/master.html

says

Chinese Kung Fu has had a long developmental period. Its extensive scope and profound principles put it in a class by itself....Guard against arrogance and boastfulness. Do not be easily provoked. Seek to analyze with an open heart and open mind.


Isnt it very true?

[jdhowland]

You know, I've never even heard YC Wong say that he teaches Hung Gar. When people come in to the school to ask what sort of kung fu he teaches, he gives them the same answer he gave me: "Southern Shaolin".

Hah! I do the same thing to describe CLF. People who grew up in the southern styles know that CLF is one of the most popular of all gung fu systems, but the average prospective student outside of Chinese cultural areas has never heard of it. When I describe it as "Southern Shaolin" most new students have some preconception of what it is. At least, it satisfies the need for a basic label that people can identify.

My first sifu studied gung fu for years before learning that his style had a name. In the "old days" you learned from a particular teacher whatever he was willing to pass on and frequently the school was known only by the teacher's name. Sometimes names and lineages were only passed on to selected lineage holders.

I learned from three different lineages that called themselves "Choy Lei Faht" even though they represent different "styles." Similarly, my "Lion's Roar" background includes lineages of "Lama Paai," "White Crane" and "Hop Ga." Way too many labels to describe what was taught by a few instructors who all practiced multiple traditions with intertwined lineages.

Because of this unneccessary elaboration I'm tempted to simply call these arts "Siu Lam Faht Ga" and "Lama Kyuhn." Ten Tigers has correctly pointed out that the original names were generic. Labeling specific lineages is a "new" (19th century?) vogue.

Maybe this will encourage students to be more open minded and welcoming to those from other lineages. I have never tried to learn Wing Chun, Siu Lam or Hung Ga but I've had a blast training with people from these systems.

Carry on.

jd

[David Jamieson]

http://www.tigercrane.com/master.html

says

Chinese Kung Fu has had a long developmental period. Its extensive scope and profound principles put it in a class by itself....Guard against arrogance and boastfulness. Do not be easily provoked. Seek to analyze with an open heart and open mind.


Isnt it very true?

Do you think that that statement is true?

In a broad scope, I would say it is not true. In a very narrow, extremely narrow scope, it is somewhat true. In my opinion and experience, which is by no means vast. :)

[Hendrik]

Do you think that that statement is true?

In a broad scope, I would say it is not true. In a very narrow, extremely narrow scope, it is somewhat true. In my opinion and experience, which is by no means vast. :)


I dont understand you comment. Please elaborate more.

[omarthefish]

Hi Henrik,

Make sure you take a look at page 1 of the thread before you jump in as I still haven't seen any evidence that you understand my argument. The fortune cookies get annoying. I don't think you are in a position to be educating many of the people on this thread. There are some very long time players here.

- There is HUGE overlap between the southern styles.
- Wing Chun is not especially unique.
- Hung Gar contains most of the Wing Chun curriculum but not vice-versa.
- This is not because Hung Gar is "better". It's because Hung Gar is a broad style with many influences and Wing Chun is specialized.

Furthermore, analogous comparisions can be made between any of the southern styles alhthoug, IMO, the Hakka styles do seem to have something fairly unique or at least, unique to Hakka styles. For example, superficially, Southern Mantis looks more like WC than Hung Gar does but in terms of flavour and shen-fa and jin-fa, it really seems different to me. Same thing for Dragon which I have taken a couple classes in. The extreme emphasis on the bow stance and it's use pretty much only as a way of keeping the weapons up front is very different from Hung Gar's use of a bow mainly as an evasive maneuver (punching up the sleeve) or by alternating between bow and horse for punching like they do in Choi Li Fut. I also didn't see much of the typical tan, pak, lop stuff in the Dragon I was exposed to.

[Hendrik]

Hi Henrik,

Make sure you take a look at page 1 of the thread before you jump in as I still haven't seen any evidence that you understand my argument.

I am not interested in argue. wasting of time, argument doesnt change reality.





The fortune cookies get annoying. I don't think you are in a position to be educating many of the people on this thread.

There are some very long time players here.




ARe you a Chinese or are you a Westerner? where is this Pulling ranking/ seniority to step on other's behavior comes from? I used to see these type of practice in the 70's Hongkong shaw's brother Kung Fu movies. hahaha

you must be watching those movies while I am listerning to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyhMc6kW5aE



In WCK, our saying is " learning has no senior or junior, those who master the art is the teacher."

Obviously, you have not learn this free will WCK concept , even with all your claim how long you have known WCK, isnt it?






- Wing Chun is not especially unique.

Big claim but by whose standard? yours?


- Hung Gar contains most of the Wing Chun curriculum but not vice-versa.

How deep is your Hung Gar/Wing Chun kungfu? how high is your Hung Gar/Wing Chun ranking in the family tree to make these type of claim?





- This is not because Hung Gar is "better". It's because Hung Gar is a broad style with many influences and Wing Chun is specialized.


Sure, your personal view. why not?






For example, superficially, Southern Mantis looks more like WC than Hung Gar does but in terms of flavour and shen-fa and jin-fa, it really seems different to me.


your personal view, why not? is it reality? if it is it is. if it is not then it is not.

[Hendrik]

I have a question for the expert in Hung Gar. Is all the sifus in the following Youtube clip good in what they are practiced? high standard Hung Gar?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8XtUh7Cg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&index=28&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM

[omarthefish]

How deep is your Hung Gar/Wing Chun kungfu? how high is your Hung Gar/Wing Chun ranking in the family tree to make these type of claim?

I actually already answered these questions for you. Several times in fact. Now, how about you answer them yourself.

The similarities I have observed have already been agreed upon by most of the people here who have the prerequisite experience. Since you are agruing against the prevailing view, the burden of "proof" is yours.

:p

[bawang]

of course those styles are similar they come from the same province

[Hendrik]

I actually already answered these questions for you. Several times in fact.

In case you dont understand.

I am asking for your rank in the family trees and depth of kung fu both in Hung Gar and Wing Chun. Very specific.





The similarities I have observed have already been agreed upon by most of the people here who have the prerequisite experience.


does your personal observation and agreed upon among some mean it is the fact?

Galileo got attackes by the Church authorities who observe and agree upon otherwise so what? the cosmos behave as it is.



Since you are agruing against the prevailing view, the burden of "proof" is yours.


Burden? Proof?

I am just having fun watching your fantasy soap opera.

[omarthefish]

In case you dont understand.

I am asking for your rank in the family trees and depth of kung fu both in Hung Gar and Wing Chun. Very specific.
I have given out more information about my background than you have so you can stick your rank up your arse. There's a reason why it's called "rank". It's means that it stinks. :D

does your personal observation and agreed upon among some mean it is the fact?
No more than yours does. But since you are only willing to issue proclamations and have never actually named specifics, you are really not in a position to be aruging this point either. At least I provided very specific examples of the overlap and what's more, experienced practictioners of the style agree with my descriptions of what they do. This is something you have not yet proven yourself capable of. You only fight with straw men. In order to have a rational debate you must first manage to at least roughly paraphrase the opposing point of view in a way that those who hold that point of view can agree on.


Burden? Proof?


Go look it up. If you weren't so arrogant I'd be more amenible to helping you out with your English but you are so I'm not.

[lkfmdc]

serious question, is he "arrogant" or maybe his command of English is a little off?

[omarthefish]

I asked him that on the last thread. I asked if he was an ESL learner and he just responded with more fortune cookies. Stuff like his consistent mis-use of plural vs. singular nouns smells like native Chinese speaker to me but if he has a hard time understanding a point then rather than condescending he should explain that he can't quite understand and ask for clarification.

[Hendrik]

I have given out more information about my background than you have so you can stick your rank up your arse. There's a reason why it's called "rank". It's means that it stinks. :D


oh, your back ground very impressive.

Rank is a different story though, rank is where were you located say under Wong Fei-Hung or Iron bridge three's family tree and who certified you. Otherwise, who knows if you learn a legitimate stuffs?

Usual TCMA right?






But since you are only willing to issue proclamations and have never actually named specifics, you are really not in a position to be aruging this point either.

At least I provided very specific examples of the overlap and what's more, experienced practictioners of the style agree with my descriptions of what they do.


To many you you me me, argue...., it is all ego isnt it?

Ok, you want to be know it all?
sure, feel free.





This is something you have not yet proven yourself capable of. You only fight with straw men.

I am here to enjoy your ideas, not spending time to prove anything.




In order to have a rational debate you must first manage to at least roughly paraphrase the opposing point of view in a way that those who hold that point of view can agree on.

Debate is wasting too much energy.


Since you know it all, why dont you advise us on


1, what is the advance attainment in Hung gar Iron Wire Set training?
2, What is the advance attainment in Wing Chun SLT set training?


Your professional input is highly appreciate!

I certainly can learn from you.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hendrik, I learned my gung fu from my father. I had 5 brothers and 2 sisters, all gung fu fighters. My father and 2 oldest brothers were my teachers. I have no idea of lineage, but know that it was widely taught in the Chinese Imperial Army before 1900. He called it Hung Fa, and at times Wing Chun. He told me that it came from a man by the name of Hung. I have no Hung Fa belt rankings. I can not do the knives or the pole, but my gung fu is strong. I do have 4 degrees of black belt in traditional Japanese Jujitsu.
Being Chinese and from what I have picked up from elders, Chinese history is just loaded with fable and myth. What they do not know they make up. I have seen it first hand.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I learned my gung fu from my father. I had 5 brothers and 2 sisters, all gung fu fighters. My father and 2 oldest brothers were my teachers. I have no idea of lineage, but know that it was widely taught in the Chinese Imperial Army before 1900. He called it Hung Fa, and at times Wing Chun. He told me that it came from a man by the name of Hung. I have no Hung Fa belt rankings. I can not do the knives or the pole, but my gung fu is strong. I do have 4 degrees of black belt in traditional Japanese Jujitsu.

Being Chinese and from what I have picked up from elders, Chinese history is just loaded with fable and myth. What they do not know they make up. I have seen it first hand.



Lee,

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

Do you do Siu Lin Tao as in WCK? Please share more about this style and also your father's history that is very interesting. Which part of china you original from?

Chinese ranges from +100 to -100. In the history of China, there are those who will do anything just to cover up for themself. Such as those sell fake medicine.

There also those who will die to tell the truth.
Such as the Historian Sze Ma Cian who dont buy the emperor's brute force torture and im prison and continous to write the truth.



Best Regards
Hendrik

[Eric Olson]

I've never practiced Wing Chun so I can't really comment on it, but I have practiced Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut (and learned Choy Lay Fut from a Hung Gar practitioner!). Even though Hung Gar has longer range techniques (supposedly inherited from Lama Pai) I can tell you that they are not executed as "long" as in CLF. I realized this when I started taking CLF from a CLF specialist. CLF is supposed to be executed really long and loose.

In addition, according to my old sifu, CLF was originally designed to fight against short range Southern styles like Hung Gar. This explains the long techniques and the angular footwork. Based on my experience, the strategy in Hung Gar is very direct with footwork that follows a more or less straight line. CLF is the opposite, always stepping off the opponents "line" and trying to throw a haymaker from an off angle....nothing direct about it.

It's interesting to see how martial arts evolve. One style or strategy becomes popular so another style develops to counter it...and on...and on...and on......

EO

[Firehawk4]

I wonder if your Hung Fa Wing Chun is related to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun there founder was Hung Gun Biu maybe your founder named Hung is the same person . What does your Wing Chun look like such as Yip Man , Yuen Kay San or Pan Nam Wing Chun what would you say it is close to ?

[Firehawk4]

You guys have to understand that Hendrik speeks about 4 languages . Although Hendrick is a difficult person to understand or get information from .

[Hendrik]

serious question, is he "arrogant" or maybe his command of English is a little off?


There is a big different between these right?

[Hendrik]

I've never practiced Wing Chun so I can't really comment on it, but I have practiced Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut (and learned Choy Lay Fut from a Hung Gar practitioner!). Even though Hung Gar has longer range techniques (supposedly inherited from Lama Pai) I can tell you that they are not executed as "long" as in CLF. I realized this when I started taking CLF from a CLF specialist. CLF is supposed to be executed really long and loose.

In addition, according to my old sifu, CLF was originally designed to fight against short range Southern styles like Hung Gar. This explains the long techniques and the angular footwork. Based on my experience, the strategy in Hung Gar is very direct with footwork that follows a more or less straight line. CLF is the opposite, always stepping off the opponents "line" and trying to throw a haymaker from an off angle....nothing direct about it.

It's interesting to see how martial arts evolve. One style or strategy becomes popular so another style develops to counter it...and on...and on...and on......

EO



1,
Exactly, the key word is "specialist".

In Chinese, it is said, " the specialist wave his hand, the other specialist will know is it or is it not."



2, you have made an excellent point of the CLF and Hung Gar.

As for WCK, the Kuen Kuit said " Using get away from the opponents' path as entering, thus, short technics broken the long technics "

A different way...

[Hendrik]

Although Hendrick is a difficult person to understand or get information from .


That depend on who and how they communicate with me.

[Violent Designs]

I asked him that on the last thread. I asked if he was an ESL learner and he just responded with more fortune cookies. Stuff like his consistent mis-use of plural vs. singular nouns smells like native Chinese speaker to me but if he has a hard time understanding a point then rather than condescending he should explain that he can't quite understand and ask for clarification.

It reads like fake Chinglish - e.g. purposely misspelled words, incorrect grammar, etc. just to make himself sound more "Chinese." :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

It reads like fake Chinglish - e.g. purposely misspelled words, incorrect grammar, etc. just to make himself sound more "Chinese." :rolleyes:

I honestly haven't paid much attention, but I can say that unfortunately some people on here in the past HAVE tried to sound Chinese when they were not

[Hendrik]

It reads like fake Chinglish - e.g. purposely misspelled words, incorrect grammar, etc. just to make himself sound more "Chinese." :rolleyes:

So, both omarthefish and you are chinese?

[Hendrik]

I honestly haven't paid much attention,

I agree with you, stay focus on the topic.

[SIFU RON]

I have a question for the expert in Hung Gar. Is all the sifus in the following Youtube clip good in what they are practiced? high standard Hung Gar?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJU8XtUh7Cg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg&feature=PlayList&p=364AE0198942FBCE&index=28&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM

Hung Ga Iron Wire - Chi Chi Ling 2000 - a very good one, this guy is strong, Thanks for this one. ;)

[omarthefish]

I'm starting to agree with Violent.

Not so sure Hendrik is even Chinese anymore. I'm gonna have to start backwards engineering his grammatical mistakes to see if they are consistent with Chinese grammar. Things like:

Using get away from the opponents' path as entering, thus, short technics broken the long technics

The grammar is all messed up but it doesn't really match Chinese grammar either.

Hendrik also keeps changing his mind between wether lineage is important of weather info should stand on it's own. When questioned about his own background he spits out a fortuen cookie about "only trainings speak true meaning" but when I challenge him on ideas he goes off about lineage and asks where my name is in Guangzhou.

He's pure double speak and is about 3 or 4 more posts away from going onto my ignore list.

[Hendrik]

Not so sure Hendrik is even Chinese anymore. I'm gonna have to start backwards engineering his grammatical mistakes to see if they are consistent with Chinese grammar.


Isnt it the topic of this thread is on Southern similarities?
What does it matter even if Hendrik is Martian?





Things like:

Using get away from the opponents' path as entering, thus, short technics broken the long technics

The grammar is all messed up but it doesn't really match Chinese grammar either.



Chinese Grammar? what is Chinese Grammar? Which Chinese Grammar?

what is this Grammar stuffs got to do with this thread?

Communication is as simple as if one doesnt know or not clear one asked, instead of go off topic.





Hendrik also keeps changing his mind between wether lineage is important of weather info should stand on it's own.


EVeryone has free will to speak their ideas. and the world is not black and white but fill with gray and colors.

and agaiin, what is this got to do with the topic?




When questioned about his own background he spits out a fortuen cookie about "only trainings speak true meaning"


It is a personal choice to share one's background or not.
and there is no point of making fun of others communication style.

again, what is this got to do with the topic?






but when I challenge him on ideas he goes off about lineage and asks where my name is in Guangzhou.



No one needs to take any challenge if one decide not to.

Again, Which of my previous post asked "your name is in GuangZhou'?





He's pure double speak and is about 3 or 4 more posts away from going onto my ignore list.



I am really glad and Thank you that you put me in your ignore list asap.
that way, you are free I am free.

[Hendrik]

Hung Ga Iron Wire - Chi Chi Ling 2000 - a very good one, this guy is strong, Thanks for this one. ;)

How is other sifus are they as good in Hung Gar?

[Golden Arms]

Hendrik,

Do you realize, that asking any Hung Gar guys that have martial ethics/Yi Hei if various Sifu's are "good" or not, is by its nature a difficult question to answer? To say another Sifu is not good when he is your senior, on a public forum could be construed as disrespect to that family or lineage.

One could say that each of the videos you posted showcase different approaches to Hung Gar. Here are some examples of Hung Gar that show how differently it can be played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vpYKMBmXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0WQVDf-Wi8

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Do you realize, that asking any Hung Gar guys that have martial ethics/Yi Hei if various Sifu's are "good" or not, is by its nature a difficult question to answer? To say another Sifu is not good when he is your senior, on a public forum could be construed as disrespect to that family or lineage.

One could say that each of the videos you posted showcase different approaches to Hung Gar. Here are some examples of Hung Gar that show how differently it can be played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vpYKMBmXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0WQVDf-Wi8


Thanks and you are absolutely right!

Perhaps a better question to ask is what is the individual performers' style and strong point? What do you think?

[Golden Arms]

I think that question may potentially get more answers. I have seen Hung Gar that is played very gong, some that is played very yao (I recall Kwan Tit Fu's lineage trains this way), short arm/small circle, longer arm/bigger circles. In the end one may only really speak on what they do, since that which is outside of what they specialize in ends up being more conjecture since it is not experienced first hand.

On the topic at hand, I would agree that I have yet to see Wing Chun methods/technique that are not in Hung Gar. That being said, since even Hung Gar itself can be played in so many ways (specializations), Wing Chun can as well. I don't know the Kyun Kuit/Martial Phrases (sp?) for Wing Chun, but they may also differ from those found in Hung Gar. From that viewpoint, Wing Chun is indeed specialized. Hung Gar Sifu's each tend to specialize a great deal as well, which is part of why I illustrated how different the expressions can be. If I played my Hung Gar in line with the Wing Chun Kyun Kuit, would I be doing Wing Chun?

[Hendrik]

I think that question may potentially get more answers.

I have seen Hung Gar that is played very gong, some that is played very yao (I recall Kwan Tit Fu's lineage trains this way), short arm/small circle, longer arm/bigger circles.

In the end one may only really speak on what they do, since that which is outside of what they specialize in ends up being more conjecture since it is not experienced first hand.



Thank you for the suggestion and sharing!




On the topic at hand, I would agree that I have yet to see Wing Chun methods/technique that are not in Hung Gar.

If one take Wing Chun's technigue as Wing Chun, then Wing Chun is just classical White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian.

As we know the 400 years old white crane mother of Wing Chun which influence Southern China martial art big time.





That being said, since even Hung Gar itself can be played in so many ways (specializations), Wing Chun can as well.


In a strict rule, there are definite definition or clear boundary for each style if it is well design. crossing the boundary will have become a different style. IMHO.



I don't know the Kyun Kuit/Martial Phrases (sp?) for Wing Chun, but they may also differ from those found in Hung Gar.

Yes, indeed. different animal.





If I played my Hung Gar in line with the Wing Chun Kyun Kuit, would I be doing Wing Chun?


IMHO, Played doesnt make a style. long term Conditioning is what make a style. as the Chinese said, Kung Fu Kung Fu. it is the long time conditioning of mind/breathing/body/Qi in a specific way that makes a style. Thus, Wing Chun is not White Crane of Fujian, as we know all the Wing Chun Technics can be found in Fujian White Crane hundreds of years ago.



EI: the iron wire and SLT, the conditioning is very different, thus the result is also different.

As an example, the Iron Wire using the making sounding breath to condition the internal organs, where else, the SLT dont take that path but using "entering into silence" as the theme to cultivate the Shen, then the Zhen Qi follow then influence the internal organ.

There are also a different between Qi pressing downward to Dan Dien or Qi shink into Dan Dien.

SLT is using the Qi Shink into Dan Dien, where else, IMHO, I could be wrong, Iron wire is closer to Qi pressing downward to Dan Dien method.

One is spread loose waving in silence, one is dynamic tension playing with Expanding and contraction with focus intention.

One is using the Shen Yee to direct the Qi and to transport the physical body. one is using the Yee to directly activate the physical body.


thus,
One can mimic others style " movement" but at the impact one is still using a different type of Jin due to the long term conditioning.

Thus, I have heard,
In the old time, It is only with this level/depth of attainment, that one is considered to have some handling of a style. or Yup Mun or Enter the door.


Most of us today (sure including myself) never get this far, thus, IMHO, there is no WCK there is no Hung Gar... but chop sui kuen because we just mimic movement have little Kung at all.



Just some thoughts.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Lee,

Thank you and appreciate for your sharing.

Do you do Siu Lin Tao as in WCK? Please share more about this style and also your father's history that is very interesting. Which part of china you original from?

> Hendrik, I do a similar Sil Lim, but as with most lineages today, it alters in appearance some. I have not seen many other lineages to compare. I have seen a few people on Utube do it and some were really different, some quite similar.
My father owned a grocery, hardware, and drygoods store, but was really a gangster. I grew up working a day job as a printer for most of my life, and working for crooks at night. I have even owned a few printing businesses of my own.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I wonder if your Hung Fa Wing Chun is related to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun there founder was Hung Gun Biu maybe your founder named Hung is the same person . What does your Wing Chun look like such as Yip Man , Yuen Kay San or Pan Nam Wing Chun what would you say it is close to ?




Firehawk, I am going to have to be honest with you. I have not seen many people do wing chun except those that I taught and those that taught me. I have seen it on Utube now and again, but I have seldom run up on anyone that is a Wing Chun fighter. I have watched a few utube clips and would say that my WC is pretty much the same in the basics.
I would agree that it was probably handed down by Hung Gun since it was called Hung Fa. I don't know how closely it comes to Hung Fa Yi, and I have only seen a few real good clips representing Ip Man's WC and it looked pretty much the same to me. I couldn't say about the other 2. I watched Bill Cheung back in the late 60's or early 70's doing Wing Chun and his was very much the same as mine. Only lots better.

[Firehawk4]

Thats interesting about Bill Cheungs Wing Chun i asume you mean William Chueng his Wing Chun is said to be similar to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun . Do you have any pictures of your Wing Chun that you could post ?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Thats interesting about Bill Cheungs Wing Chun i asume you mean William Chueng his Wing Chun is said to be similar to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun . Do you have any pictures of your Wing Chun that you could post?

I have no video clips or pictures. Nothing that would show off my fighting style anyway. Back when I was younger and more active in my Wing Chun we did not have real video cameras, and pictures were taken in rolls of film, so I never did get off into that.
Yea, I meant William Cheung.

[Hendrik]

Lee,

Thank you for your sharing, and respectable life story.

Looking at the history, in my very humble opinion,
Hung Fa is an art of the Hung Mun, instead the art of Chinese Imperial Army .



for those who are interested in Hung Kuen, Hung Fa, and Wing Chun

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13155#13155

[TenTigers]

great, except that it is in Chinese. Can anyone translate it? Even a poor translation like babelfish would help, but to say,"Here's information, everybody" and then post something that is not translated is rather insulting.

[omarthefish]

That's his MO.

[omarthefish]

p.s.

I took the time to translate the first chunk of it but it's kind of difficult reading and doing the whole thing in one sitting could make my head explode:
〈咏春〉
"Wing Chun"

历史地点—约于1860起，太平天国李文茂事件后，粤剧禁演。武生黄华宝于佛山传授与梁赞。
Around 1860, after the LI Wen-ge's invention of the Taiping Empire, Guangdong Opera performances were banned.The opera performer Huang Hua-bao, while living in Foshan, took on Liang Zan as an apprentice. Liang Zan organized Huang Hua-bao's material and developed it from there.
始见于—黄华宝传授与梁赞，梁赞整理后而发展。

拳套：—因应壹套全新锻链系统设计而成，只有拳种共三套。依次由浅入深小念头，寻桥，标指等咏 春
The forms: First he created a completely new sytem or training consisting of only 3 forms. Going from the superficial to the deep there was the Siu Lumtao, Chum Qiu and Biu Jee as special forms only found in Wing Chun.
独有拳套，完全没有其他门派或南少林拳套之影子。有南少林六点半棍（与梁二娣交换而来）。
In those forms there are absolutely no traces of other styles or of any other southern Shaolin in the boxing methods. It includes the Southern Shaolin 6 and a half point staff (which was traded from Liang Er-di)

由武生黄华宝及船工梁二娣开始，时值太平天国及洪兵起义反清期间，当时（1854年）红船中人 李文茂(?-1858)率众反清，导致粤剧全面被禁达15年之久。华宝，二娣从此公开授武。二娣曾习钦州洪兵拳术 (蛇形洪拳、琼花会馆被焚毁后，改称少林拳)，孰练六点半棍法，二公传与跌打兼中医师梁赞、梁赞整理后传出 。
At that time Hong's Taiping Tian Guo was rebelling against the Qing dynasty and (1854) Li Wen-mao of the Red Boats provided many fighters to the rebellion. As a result the Guangdong Opera was banned for 15 years. It was during this time that Huang Hua-bao and Liang Er-di started to openly teach martial arts. Er-di had studied the Qingzhou Hongbing boxing. (The Snake Style Hung Boxing, was renamed "Shaolin Quan after after the burning down of the Qiong Hua Academy) He was skilled in the six and a half point staff. Liang Zan was a traditional doctor skilled in bone setting and injury treatment already before he went on to learn gong-fu from these two. After Liang Zan re-organzied their gong-fu curriculum, he started teaching.

[bawang]

it says weng chun is unique because no other style has its three forms

i think it only proves weng chun is new, not unique

[Violent Designs]

it says weng chun is unique because no other style has its three forms

i think it only proves weng chun is new, not unique

Well, imagine that. Other styles don't have Wing Chun forms. :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

"In those forms there are absolutely no traces of other styles or of any other southern Shaolin in the boxing methods. It includes the Southern Shaolin 6 and a half point staff "

boulderdawg, um, dash!
Hung, SPM, and other Southern Shaolin styles contain yee ji kim yeung ma, tan, bong, fook, pak, biu, gaun,etc.
If it includes the Shaolin staff, which is an extension of the hand, then again, this article contradicts itself.

Ah, but the article IS written in Chinese, by someone who must be very important, so it must be true....:rolleyes:

[CFT]

We don't really know the source of the article. I've only read what Omar has translated and skimmed some of the rest. It doesn't seem to me to be particularly scholarly. It maybe a newspaper piece by some WCK "master" who wants to proclaim the preeminence of their lineage.

I remember reading an article by a great--grandson (I think) of Chan Wah Sun who claimed that they had extra secret forms in their line. This was the article about CWS taking on Wong Fei Hung and beating him when WFH came to challenge Leung Jan. Sounded like baloney to me. Both articles seem like they are cut from the same cloth.

[Violent Designs]

Do you guys need another translation? I can translate later today after I get some rest . . .

[Hendrik]

Go ahead translate these



红船永春拳〉 Red Boat Enternal Spring

历史地点—1870年后，太成国李文茂事件后，粤剧禁演。大花面（陆）锦于广州传授与冯小清。

相关人物—大花面（陆）锦。

冯小青

冯(在1870年后，当时粤剧可以在广州恢复演出)在广州追随师父粤剧武生新锦（大花面锦，陆锦）学习红船 永春(前身为福建白鹤拳）。新锦在粤剧班中是黄华宝(1854年前在佛山粤剧演出之武生)的后辈。所以根本 无何能陆锦与黄华宝连上关系。冯小青大约在1920年左右在佛山去世，享寿72岁。



〈花洪拳〉 Fa Hung Kuen (Flower Hung Kuen)

拳套：花拳，箭拳，七星拳等。无寻桥，标指等咏春独有拳套。

有缠丝棍〔不同于梁二娣(咏春拳)之六点半棍〕。





混合咏春 -------------- Mix Praise the Spring

咏春拳注重实效，拳理自然科学，合乎人体力学，三角几何。人人可以依照自身条件来学习。加上中 国传统哲理，

儒家中正守法，道法自然随意，佛性修心，不行邪念。造成可以发展之有利条件。

现在很多学习其他门派之人士，亦加入原咏春之原理或动作，将自身之动作招式改变，发展了：

1，洪拳咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分洪家拳加上更改之咏春拳套路。
Hung Kuen Praise the Spring

2，少林咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分老洪拳加上更改之咏春拳套路。
Shao Lin Praise the Spring


3，红船永春—部分永春拳加上黄华宝之小练（念）头。梁二娣之六点半棍。
Red Boat enternal Spring


4，永春咏春—以‘永春三（七）娘’为创始人。部分永春拳加上咏春三套拳套路。

White Crane enternal spring Praise the Spring


5，洪头蔡尾咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分洪家拳，部分蔡李佛拳如“小练”，“走四门”。加上咏春三 套拳套路。

Hung Gar Starting Choy Gar ending Praise the Spring


可惜，咏春拳是一个完整之学习系统，如果只学其部分，如其套路，更改其手法，加以花巧，表现刚烈，便失其真 。

如果只学其原理，不随其系统手法，终不得其至美。



陈国基永春拳 (花洪拳) Chan Kok Kei Enternal spring or Fa Hung Kuen


陈国基家父陈家廉，擅长一字剑、十三枪及双刀拆棍等母系拳术。家廉自小在乡间学习自母亲黎好(妙显)之洪拳 ，长大后，1932年追随父亲陈汝棉前往广西授徒(之前从未在佛山授徒)，而母亲黎好则从顺德到佛山，留守 陈馆教授洪拳，陈汝棉之徒弟招就得以追随兼学其花洪拳。

解放后，中共禁止传授咏春拳，陈家廉在顺德一所小学中教授花洪拳。此时的弟子有谭焕标。而在解放后始学习花 拳的黄仁智后反传陈家廉之子陈国基。谭焕标等现称此拳是顺德永春拳，实质是洪拳与部分咏春拳之 变异。

* 陈国基永春拳与冯少青之红船永春拳无关。

陈国基尊“至善禅师”为先师。他说此拳由至善所创，为纪念永春殿故取名为永春拳。又说清帝火烧福建少林寺， 只剩下永春殿(这是花拳之传说历史)。因为至善禅师、洪熙官、黄坤三人(这是洪拳之传说)当时外游，才免于 难云云。又说清庭发现永春拳是少林拳，因而剿之，于是改名“咏春”云云。所以陈国基复名为“永 春拳”。

陈国基自称学自家传。独有秘传后半部咏春拳套(祖母黎好之花洪拳拳套)；四门拳、伏虎拳、佛掌“注1”、红 砂掌、梅花枪、九环刀等等。现在之所谓 “ 下半部”咏春拳的招式，不过是把其他门派的招式胡混堆砌，包括有龙形、洪拳及鹰爪等，独不见咏春精髓。固此 ，陈国基及谭焕标之所谓“嫡传少林永春拳”实与吴仲素、叶问等所传（吴与问公均为陈国基之祖华公佛山门下传 人，因此问公于港传武期间仍称本门派为佛山咏春派）佛山咏春也无关。

[Violent Designs]

I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying?

How about YOU respond sometime, when I write something to you in Chinese, back to me in Chinese?

Instead of playing the ignore game or redirecting everything I say with sh1t like "please use English this is an English forum."

It seems like you only use English when it suits your needs, and yet you spam Chinese articles without even bothering to translate them?

I'm not the one trying to prove my point with Chinese articles, the one trying to prove a point is you. So it is YOUR responsibility to translate what the hell you are talking about to non-Chinese speaking people.

[Hendrik]

How about these? let the world know what is going on.


洪拳，由元、明间陕西地方拳术红拳加上其他拳术演变而来，已有300多年的发展历史，是清代南方民间秘密结 社三合会(洪门)假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门由郑成功在台湾创立的“金台山”开始。在南中国发展组织， 练习武术，宣传反清复明思想。
　　南方洪拳以五形拳闻名．北方洪拳以十(二)形拳（心意六合拳）传出．

据说系清代民间秘密结社洪门假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门相传创于清康熙十三年(1674)。另传起于清 顺治十八年(1661)明将郑成功在台湾创立的 “金台山”，该组织以明太祖朱元漳年号“洪武”的“洪”字立门，故称洪门。推行与从事洪拳练习，以练习武艺 为名，发展组织，宣传反清复明思想。此说尚未得到可靠证实。湖北洪拳，假托宋太祖所创，根据民传闻“赵匡胤 三十二手定天下”之说，其拳名义溯“手”字命名，如：总手、封手、金刚手等，此拳由于受武当影响，还出现了 九官手、老君堂等套路。洪拳气势刚猛、劲道十足而又十分实用，因此作为南拳代表，目前国家规定比赛用之“南 拳套路”很大一部分之架势拳路，就来自洪拳拳套。
　　洪拳是以龙、虎、狮、豹、蛇、鹤、象、马、猴、虎的象形与特性结合武术技法创编而成。有单形拳术，如龙 拳、虎拳等；亦有混合形拳术，如虎鹤双形拳、五形拳、十形拳等。其风格特点是：手法丰富，腿法较少，步稳势 烈，硬桥硬马，刚劲有力，以气催力，以声助威。湖北洪门拳劲刚势猛，故有“洪门一头牛，打死不回头”之说。 四川洪门拳还有南北两派之分。南派要求形、意、气、力、声的高度统一，主张以力服人，以威取胜，硬打直上， 劲透过身，刚劲有力；北派拳势舒展，招式清晰，四平大马，扁侧进击，闪展灵活，发劲含蓄，拳势威猛，刚劲有 力。








洪家著名的三套套路：
　　* 工字伏虎拳——修改十八罗汉拳而成，路线成工字形。为洪家母形拳（初级拳套路），学习扎马，桥手、及内功基 础。
　　* 铁线拳——铁桥三所传。属短桥窄马近身贴战的武术。铁线拳主练内功，“外练筋骨皮、内练一口气”的实践套路 。
　　* 虎鹤双形拳——修改自五形拳而成，属应用套路。
　　其他套路 五形拳，五禽拳，十二桥手及十二桥马。

花洪拳
　　另一枝由梁二娣传入佛山而至顺德，顺德一支，可以追溯至黎三兴，当时称为花洪拳。二战后，黎三兴的外孙 陈家廉后正式定名为永春拳。
　　花红拳极有可能是从东莞之莫家拳衍演出来。并拳套有串花拳，箭拳，黑虎拳，豹拳，人字桩，钓鱼及盘龙棍 。

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
I have read all sorts of stuff concerning CMA and Gung Fu, but I think most of it is simply made up and represents very little of the actual truth. Marketing or whatever, but when dealing with Chinese history we can get some real BS. One thing I can say for certain is that in 1955 WC was called Hung Fa Wing Chun or just Hung Fa by everybody I knew that practiced it. So called after a fellow by the name of Hung. And this version at least came out of Canton, China.
I wish I knew something about Choy la fut or Hung Gar, but I don't.

Chiang




Lee,

You are absolutely correct about Chinese make up history. Now it is known Internationally people Selectively choose the version of history they like to serve themselve, got nothing to do with Facts. Even the stuffs you are certain, those also within the boundary of "HIs--story"

As I mention in other post, IMHO, now, most of the stuff we train are just Chup Sui Kuen, a mess.


Hahaha. life. Until one sure what one does what can one knows about others? hahaha taking care of one's own business is a better deal. Sure, it sound fortune cookie, but until one Knows and Sure. what matter?





You guys go sort out who is who what is what. hahaha. I rather relax and listern to the following song since I am just sharing what I found and nothing more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMYFqhXIW1o&feature=related


They are illusions
They are not the solutions they promised to be
The answer was here all the time


Don't cry for me Argentina

Have I said too much?
There's nothing more I can think of to say to you.
But all you have to do is look at me to know
That every word is true

[Violent Designs]

You really are the worst sort of person.

[Vajramusti]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri



Joy,

Thanks.

For me what matter is if we tell the truth and contribute good to the world.

life is simple, just present it is as it is.

and always know knowing a thing is not the true knowing.
instead to trying keep arguing on something one have not specialized on or even have any clue, it is better to stay in silence, as the teaching of WCK ----> using silence to lead the action.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Violent Designs]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

Avoiding questions by posting more questions, and using circular logic is not having a dialogue.

[bawang]

"I wasn't talking to you.

I thought you are Chinese too? Maybe you are lying? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why be personal? Hendrik is Chinese and very competent in dealing with Chinese texts-old and new. Dialogue even with different POVs is better than being personal. IMHO.

Joy Chaudhuri

hes looking down on people because he thought they couldnt understand chinese so he posts a chinese article , turns out we all can read chinese

i think thats stupid pretending to be smart
all he posted was some generic info from another chinese forum

he only make message here because someone mention weng chun

[Hendrik]

hes looking down on people because he thought they couldnt understand chinese so he posts a chinese article , turns out we all can read chinese

i think thats stupid pretending to be smart
all he posted was some generic info from another chinese forum

he only make message here because someone mention weng chun



Those are what you think . not my issues.

Read my previous posts and read it as it is without reading your own mind.

I am sure everyone is capable to do that , just needs a little patient to comprehend before jump gun or get personal.

[banditshaw]

This thread is becoming a major clusterfukk:mad:

[lkfmdc]

Not to start a new argument (there are so many unfinished ones still) but the idea that Wong Fei hung went and challenged someone is absurd

Not only was he ultra famous for his ethics and trying to stop fighting, he (and here's where the crap will start) wasn't particularly known himself as a FIGHTER! He was a great herbalist, a great teacher, a great mediator, etc but never thought of as a fighter

[TenTigers]

show me where it says that in Chinese...

[Golden Arms]

I don't know if I can say I agree with that statement about WFH, but I don't know that I can disagree either. More importantly, I don't know that it matters at all.

Just for the record, the world has something like 7x as many people on it now as it did a hundred years ago. For all we know, even the most famous CMA guys could have been big fish in small ponds. That in no way affects the pursuit of evolving said arts in my book.

[Hardwork108]

hes looking down on people because he thought they couldnt understand chinese so he posts a chinese article , turns out we all can read chinese

i think thats stupid pretending to be smart
all he posted was some generic info from another chinese forum

he only make message here because someone mention weng chun

There is a lot of kung fu knowledge in Hendrik's posts. I don't understand everything but I know enough to know that Hendrik practices real wing chun and he knows it, whereas others here go on shooting in the dark and only hitting their own foot.

[CFT]

show me where it says that in Chinese...Sorry, the WFH story/article is not the one that Hendrik posted. It was posted in the WCK forum some time back. I'll see if I can find it but I'm not hopeful. Not sure that the link will lead anywhere now.

[omarthefish]

Ah, but the article IS written in Chinese, by someone who must be very important, so it must be true....:rolleyes:

There's not even anything to indicate it's an article. AFAIK, it's just somebody's post on a WC forum. I mean, it's not sourced, there's no references and, just like Henrik's posts here, there's no indication of the background of the original poster.

And yes, it's poorly written. I was going over it with my wife (Chinese) and she had to keep saying things like, "I think what he's trying to say is....".

[CFT]

The text that Hendrik posted is also on this Chinese wikipedia page: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8B%B3

Still no way to tell where it came from.

The "match" between Chan Wah Shun and Wong Fei Hung is described here: http://lsw1230795.mysinablog.com/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=1624468

According to the article, this is a story told within the Chan family. I am sure it is copied from a newspaper article because there is mention of a reporter. This is not the same link as the original one I read but the text seems the same.

[omarthefish]

lol.

And we all know how reliable the Wiki is when it comes to martial arts . . . :rolleyes:

[CFT]

Here is the WFH vs. CWS article I read way back when: http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm

[omarthefish]

That one's kind of cool but it also reads like a very friendly challenge so it seems possibly in keeping with Huang Fei-hung's rep. They first compare bridge arms and then spar a bit. It closes (the 'challenge' part anyways) saying that there's "careful recordings" of these events and that they "exchanged techniques in order to improve the spirit [of martial arts] and increase mutual respect"

[Hendrik]

I don't know if I can say I agree with that statement about WFH, but I don't know that I can disagree either. More importantly, I don't know that it matters at all.

Just for the record, the world has something like 7x as many people on it now as it did a hundred years ago. For all we know, even the most famous CMA guys could have been big fish in small ponds. That in no way affects the pursuit of evolving said arts in my book.



Yes. in fact.

[Hendrik]

The text that Hendrik posted is also on this Chinese wikipedia page: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8B%B3

Still no way to tell where it came from.

The "match" between Chan Wah Shun and Wong Fei Hung is described here: http://lsw1230795.mysinablog.com/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=1624468

According to the article, this is a story told within the Chan family. I am sure it is copied from a newspaper article because there is mention of a reporter. This is not the same link as the original one I read but the text seems the same.



You see, all these ideas and all these his-story.

So what is the Similarities? and what is the different?

Do they know what they are talking about?

Do we know what we are talking about?

Or we all do Chop Sui Kuen so everything is the same Chop Sui with uneded argument and challenging argument of Oh Hung Gar have everything in Wing Chun and Wing Chun Guys beat WHF...... ....; it is just like making fantasy movies.
No kung but all fantasy.

[TenTigers]

bottom line is, does it matter? How does all this affect YOUR Gung-Fu and your training?

[Hendrik]

bottom line is, does it matter? How does all this affect YOUR Gung-Fu and your training?

Yup!!!!!!!!

[Hendrik]

And yes, it's poorly written. I was going over it with my wife (Chinese) and she had to keep saying things like, "I think what he's trying to say is....".


Picking on language again?

poorly written?

how poor could it be since it is in the wikipedia?



or may be those are closer to the Classical Chinese style that you are not familiar with?

[Hendrik]

You really are the worst sort of person.


Sure,

My idol is him, the famous Wei Xiao Pao, the student of Chen Chin Nan ( the leader who create Tien De Hui or Mung Mun )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGrOxfpMNZM&feature=fvsr


But then that is just Chinese martial art fiction and movie. What is real?

[omarthefish]

Picking on language again?

poorly written?

how poor could it be since it is in the wikipedia?

[sarcasm]Right. Because the Wiki is written by professionals and all articles undergo a riguorous process of academic review[/sarasm]


or may be those are closer to the Classical Chinese style that you are not familiar with?

Thanks for finally proving that you do not, in fact, read Chinese.

The article is written in regular old modern day Chinese. There's nothing classical about it. I was not "picking on" the language. I was offering my critique of the article. The sloppy writing style points to it's level of authority. It's just a Wiki which is just some stuff that some random anonymous web surfer posted. It's poorly written and basically has no more authority than any piece of history that any one else here on this board might post but mostly....

Thanks for convincing me once and for all that you are not Chinese.

[Hendrik]

[sarcasm]Right. Because the Wiki is written by professionals and all articles undergo a riguorous process of academic review[/sarasm]



Thanks for finally proving that you do not, in fact, read Chinese.

The article is written in regular old modern day Chinese. There's nothing classical about it. I was not "picking on" the language. I was offering my critique of the article.


The sloppy writing style points to it's level of authority.


It's just a Wiki which is just some stuff that some random anonymous web surfer posted. It's poorly written and basically has no more authority than any piece of history that any one else here on this board might post but mostly....

Thanks for convincing me once and for all that you are not Chinese.



Sure, everyone is not Chinese except you right? Great to know!


" The sloppy writing style points to it's level of authority."
are you a fortune teller who read future via hand writting or Printer's font too?


When is KFO becomes a Chinese language critics forum ?

[bawang]

most styles u guys talking about come from guangdong , they come from the same province, they are top famous schools, so of course they must exchange things

also if you look at their salute, they are all sun moon salutes, so most of masters in those styles probably exchanged techniques when they were in the taiping rebellion

also maybe exchange techniques in yi he rebellion, all the top masters revealed their top training methods and tried to make an ultimate style

[omarthefish]

Sure, everyone is not Chinese except you right? Great to know!

Who me? I'm not Chinese. Never said I was.

are you a fortune teller who read future via hand writting or Printer's font too?

No. I just have basic critical thinking skills. Kung Fu history is filled with BS. This article is clearly written by someone from within a Wing Chun lineage therefore it can not pretend to be any sort of objective historical item. It is not academic. It is political. That is not to say that a Wing Chun person can not write objectively about Wing Chun but at the very minumum, in order for the article to be accepted as anything more than apocryphal history, there needs to be sources cited and the information needs to be cross-referenced.

As to the writing style, the writing style of a given article says a tremendous amount about the writer. If the writing is sloppy, why should I think that the research is any better. It's only common sense to notice the level and style of the language when the article is being presented as some sort of historical evidence. The language is not in a classical style. This suggests that it is recent. It is not clear in parts. This suggests that it was written carelessly. It is not sourced. This suggests that it is just hearsay.

This is all just common sense and stuff that anyone with a college education (or even high school really) should know. Try and apply the following standard to any of the information you have presented so far:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/olinuris/ref/research/skill26.htm

More specifically, from the Cornell webpage:
D. Writing Style

Is the publication organized logically? Are the main points clearly presented? Do you find the text easy to read, or is it stilted or choppy? Is the author's argument repetitive?

The article you linked fails on these points.

I would not criticize the writing style if it was just somebody but you presented it in support of your views. AFAIK, it's just some other guy on the internet with an opinion.

[omarthefish]

most styles u guys talking about come from guangdong , they come from the same province, they are top famous schools, so of course they must exchange things

also if you look at their salute, they are all sun moon salutes, so most of masters in those styles probably exchanged techniques when they were in the taiping rebellion

also maybe exchange techniques in yi he rebellion, all the top masters revealed their top training methods and tried to make an ultimate style

Dam straight.

[bawang]

also, the one finger chan hand signal was a secret hand signal used by robbers in northern china, many southern style has that hand signal, another clue they exchanged techniques

omar dont beother arguing i havent been able to understand that guy for 3 pages now hes talking gibberish, 20 min i spend trying to understand his post lol

[Hendrik]

Who me? I'm not Chinese. Never said I was.



No. I just have basic critical thinking skills. Kung Fu history is filled with BS. This article is clearly written by someone from within a Wing Chun lineage therefore it can not pretend to be any sort of objective historical item. It is not academic. It is political. That is not to say that a Wing Chun person can not write objectively about Wing Chun but at the very minumum, in order for the article to be accepted as anything more than apocryphal history, there needs to be sources cited and the information needs to be cross-referenced.

As to the writing style, the writing style of a given article says a tremendous amount about the writer. If the writing is sloppy, why should I think that the research is any better. It's only common sense to notice the level and style of the language when the article is being presented as some sort of historical evidence. The language is not in a classical style. This suggests that it is recent. It is not clear in parts. This suggests that it was written carelessly. It is not sourced. This suggests that it is just hearsay.

This is all just common sense and stuff that anyone with a college education (or even high school really) should know. Try and apply the following standard to any of the information you have presented so far:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/olinuris/ref/research/skill26.htm

More specifically, from the Cornell webpage:


The article you linked fails on these points.

I would not criticize the writing style if it was just somebody but you presented it in support of your views. AFAIK, it's just some other guy on the internet with an opinion.


What you post has some truth in it. However, is that the only truth of the reality, that is the question for those with wisdom.

[htowndragon]

dude, stfu.

[Violent Designs]

dude, stfu.

Are you talking to Hendrik?

[htowndragon]

ya im talking to hendrik. i like the way omar laid out his post. hendrik is sounding like one of those "holier than thou" people who won't reveal their background.

get back on topic, i've talked to people from ken chungs wing chun lineage, in fact, one of my close friends is a longtime student of his who's been authorized to teach. we both agree on the relationship between hung kuen and wc, and see wc as a "specialized" advancement on a part of hung kuen.

compare some of the village styles of hung kuen (pre wong fei hung), the short hand stuff, (my sifu david chin learned this from Ma Sek in SF), to the older systems of wing chun, a lot clearer to see that they came from the same root.

[lkfmdc]

For what it's worth, and in my opinion only really, but it seems a lot of what is written on the mainland in modern times is written at like a grade school level. I think it is because it is for mass consumption and as much as people hate to admit it, literacy is still an issue in China

[hskwarrior]

I think the CHOY LEE FUT system is a good example of southern gung fu evolution. For its time, CLF WAS one of if not THE original MMA of TCMA. Still, within CLF, there are 3 different branches, with no one doing the same stuff outside of the basic techniques. Even within our own system shared techniques get a different meaning and expression when it comes to individual masters OWNING their gung fu.

Another example, I see the Chan Tai San lineage do things I know we've never exposed before. Yet, after watching them, its like "how'd they get THAT?"

Fut San WAS a martial hub during the old days. and, there was a point when NONE of them knew martial arts. Now, everyone in fut san is learning SOME TYPE of martial art whether its wing chun, CLF, white crane, Lama, Dragon or whatever.

Still within all southern gung fu, (BUT NOT JUST SGF) we all have the same $hit. its just HOW we use it that separates us. sometimes, we all use it exactly the same way. and when it comes to individual styles, you have to ask, how do we have the same $hit?

[Hendrik]

For what it's worth, and in my opinion only really, but it seems a lot of what is written on the mainland in modern times is written at like a grade school level. I think it is because it is for mass consumption and as much as people hate to admit it, literacy is still an issue in China



Yup. Totally agree.

and also as the ancient chinese said " the way how orange grow in the west bank and east bank cannot be the same." Truth in the west doesnt by default applied to the east.

How wise is , without looking at what is the content and judging thing in the surface.



Check into famous southern TCMA sifus between 1850 up to today, how many of them is literate? how many can write simple classical Chinese of their era? I am happy if I can see some writing record of thier training experience, which is very rare.


Furthermore, if literacy is the key to know what is the facts; as the general practice in the American education system train Corporation; where "how to present is more important the what is the content".
Then, the Chan six patriach is bogus because Hui Neng doesnt even know how to write.



Face it,

One can pick at that Wiki information as much as one likes, however, examine oneself, how much does one knows WCK compare with the person who wrote the article? Is it easy to pick this or that. but one forgets what most present here is he says me says, some even have no proper training in WCK.

Not to mention as in Classsical Chinese Traditional, ONe needs the lineage Transmission or Chuan Chen to open one's mouth. Without Chuan Chen one doesnt even have a say.

Thus, by the name of Critical thinking, how many practice critical toward others but sloppy toward one ownself? If one cant even aware of that than what good is Critical thinking beside learning those term in the college for arguement shake.


Finally, dont become a Chung Kou Tong or China Expert as what the Chinese called the foreigner who "think" they know it all about china and Chinese but they have no clue.


China is a big country with variation of culture among its land, the cantonese have a different way of writing style, the Fujianese has a different way of using the term, The Beijing-er have another type of way, the Shang Hai people has another way.... and so one.
Correct Standard Chinese grammar? , it is only those who is ignorance with book learning's fantasy they know it all about standard.




One true record is,

when one of the chinese student of Famous Chinese Scholar Nan Huai Chiin told Prof Nan, " the westerner researches know so much about Chinese Culture which i dont even know. I really admire them"

Prof Nan said " The westerner is learning a certain aspect from reading, and you live in it since you were born. Who knows more? "



Finally, the following is the situation of WCK evolution today. I wont said it is the perfect truth but there are lots of truth in these. Why not translate it and let everyone sees?


混合咏春 -------------- Mix Praise the Spring

咏春拳注重实效，拳理自然科学，合乎人体力学，三角几何。人人可以依照自身条件来学习。加上中 国传统哲理，

儒家中正守法，道法自然随意，佛性修心，不行邪念。造成可以发展之有利条件。

现在很多学习其他门派之人士，亦加入原咏春之原理或动作，将自身之动作招式改变，发展了：

1，洪拳咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分洪家拳加上更改之咏春拳套路。
Hung Kuen Praise the Spring

2，少林咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分老洪拳加上更改之咏春拳套路。
Shao Lin Praise the Spring


3，红船永春—部分永春拳加上黄华宝之小练（念）头。梁二娣之六点半棍。
Red Boat enternal Spring


4，永春咏春—以‘永春三（七）娘’为创始人。部分永春拳加上咏春三套拳套路。

White Crane enternal spring Praise the Spring


5，洪头蔡尾咏春—以‘至善禅师’为创始人。部分洪家拳，部分蔡李佛拳如“小练”，“走四门”。 加上咏春三 套拳套路。

Hung Gar Starting Choy Gar ending Praise the Spring


可惜，咏春拳是一个完整之学习系统，如果只学其部分，如其套路，更改其手法，加以花巧，表现刚 烈，便失其真 。

如果只学其原理，不随其系统手法，终不得其至美。



Same with ;This is Hung Kuen

洪拳，由元、明间陕西地方拳术红拳加上其他拳术演变而来，已有300多年的发展历史，是清代南 方民间秘密结 社三合会(洪门)假托少林所传习的一种拳术。洪门由郑成功在台湾创立的“金台山”开始。在南中 国发展组织， 练习武术，宣传反清复明思想。

　洪拳是以龙、虎、狮、豹、蛇、鹤、象、马、猴、虎的象形与特性结合武术技法创编而成。有单形 拳术，如龙 拳、虎拳等；亦有混合形拳术，如虎鹤双形拳、五形拳、十形拳等。其风格特点是：手法丰富，腿法 较少，步稳势 烈，硬桥硬马，刚劲有力，以气催力，以声助威。


How close is WCK and Hung Kuen?



To those who start to critics about grammar again, my advise is share what you have and see your understanding could surpassed the above. If not? what to critics? You dont know.

[hskwarrior]

Kendric.....

what is MUNG MUN?

If you are referring to the Tien Dai Hui, and the Hung Mun, Chen Kin Nan, did NOT create the Hung Mun, the Hung Mun itself is under the UMBRELLA of the Heaven and Earthy society (Tien Di Hui), and was founded by Tsai Te Chung, Fong Dai Hung, Ma Chiu Hing, Wu De Di, and Li Sik Hoi.

[Hendrik]

Kendric.....

what is MUNG MUN?

If you are referring to the Tien Dai Hui, and the Hung Mun, Chen Kin Nan, did NOT create the Hung Mun, the Hung Mun itself is under the UMBRELLA of the Heaven and Earthy society (Tien Di Hui), and was founded by Tsai Te Chung, Fong Dai Hung, Ma Chiu Hing, Wu De Di, and Li Sik Hoi.




1, I am just having fun with that Chin Yong Martial art fiction Luu Ding Zee. the main character Wei Xiao Bo is good at nothing but end up to have seven sexy wifes and he is the student of Chen Chin Nan, and Chen Chin Nan is the right hand man of General Zhen Cheng-Kung. Read that fiction, it is funny like hell. It talks about anti-qing.....etc.





2, According to Chinese History, Hung Mun is founded by General Zhen Cheng-kung in Taiwan.

http://www.taiwanus.net/history/2/50.htm
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B4%AA%E9%97%A8#.E5.A4.A9.E5.9C.B0.E6.9C.83


The fiction refer to this pre 1683 version



洪門之所以取名為洪門是因明太祖的年號是洪武，所以取洪為名，指天為父，指地為母，所以又名為「天地會」。 鄭成功為創始者，在洪門中稱之為「萬雲龍」或「萬大哥」，陳永華以「陳近南」之名字來傳佈。這樣的更名是避 免天地會推行反清復明時立即被清卸府注意而難於發展。所以創始者是鄭成功，而修整者是陳永華。 鄭成功在台灣首先成立「金台山」，這山名是取金台招賢之意，自為龍頭亦即「山主」，參加的皆是他的手下將土 。凡同盟者均曰「洪門」，門是家門，所以又稱為洪家，既然是一家，所以入會者不論職位高低均稱為兄弟。此為 一平等組織，以「桃園」義氣、「瓦崗」威風號召，所以有「兄不大弟不小」。又洪字是漢字去掉「中土」，即是 失去國土之意，洪門中有許多規矩是存在反清的意識，如入會時必披髮，大長辮非我族之物，見祖宗不可以滿人的 形式，衣著亦復明時衣冠，又書寫清字必無主字在內，亦即「 」有水有月，但無主。 滿字將頭去掉成為「 」，即滿無頭也。



洪门由郑成功在台湾创立的“金台山”开始。在南中 国发展组织， 练习武术，宣传反清复明思想。
鄭成功退守台灣（鄭經和鄭克塽）至1683年前，以「漢留」為代號，後，成立〈留在中土之組織〉，派五名將 領往南中國開山立堂，由翰林院學士陳永華（匿名近南?）先生留在中土主持。陳為台灣派駐中土之最高指揮，率 領各個山堂。陳永華在湖北曾居襄陽城南「白鶴洞」，號「白鶴道人」，籍傳道為名，遊歷四方，聯絡仁人義士。 「白鶴仙師」的圖像即代表漢留組織的標誌。台灣有很多地方，現在都有供奉白鶴仙師或鶴母等風俗 。



Your version is post 1683

鄭氏失敗後（清前期，1683年後），康熙清剿南方福建及廣東之反清組織，他們是由「洪門五祖」蔡德忠、方 大洪、馬超興、胡德帝、李式開等成立的。此時在民間以「天地會」之名與地方聯合組織了地下社會，主要在閩、 粵及台灣出現。




3, Chen Chin-Nan

翰林院學士陳永華 , 陳近南 . 陳永華在湖北曾居襄陽城南「白鶴洞」，號「白鶴道人」，籍傳道為名，遊歷四方，聯絡仁人義士。「白鶴仙師」 的圖像即代表漢留組織的標誌。

Some think Chen Chin-Nan is the real sifu of Fang Chi-Niang who found the White Crane Eng Chun style of Fujian. Because Chen is also nick Name the White Crane Daoist.




Actually, you can go to Taiwan to research on Chin Tai San and thier old alta...etc.


Hope these help.



PS: As for how CLF link to WCK (at least my lineage in 1850's), Hung Mun, Taiping, Shang Hai --------


As I mention in this forum and other forum a few time, Yes, there is uprising group code to identify oneself in the Red Boat era. In fact, I have post the Yik Kam's WCK lineage's Code which comes with the salutation movement.

Which is

1,

反清 復明 五湖四海 十指連心 遝我河山

Over turn the Qing, Return to Ming, Five lakes four seas, ten fingers with the same heart, return me my country.

2,

劍指膀肘逞英雄

Sword finger, Bong Elbow present to the Hero (Yin Hung)
(Yin Hung was used in that era for to refer to the Hung Mun because the pronouciation of Hung in hero is similar to the Hung of Hung Mun.)



Notice the following CLF stanza, in the following site, it starts also with Yin Hong. and we know CLF was also involved in the uprising activity in the same era of 1800's

http://www.hongshengguan.com/his.htm




This Yin Hung term also could be found in YUE YUAN / Dim Chun hall exhibit of Shang Hai. there is a picture on the Shang Hai Yin Hung Stanza some where in the old article in Rene's site.
One can sees the activities between Shang Hai, Taiping, Canton, Opera....etc at that era. Rene and Robert have written a series of details article on these.

http://www.w1ng.com/shanghai-connect...un-siu-do-wui/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDVkK...eature=related




半点子午定太平

Half Point of center spear settle the Tai Ping
( Taiping for Tai Ping Tien Kuo, )http://wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM
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PS: in fact, some of our family's ancestors are doing CLF prior to WCK. and also some have attemp to use CLF movement with WCK core jin about hundred years ago. The result of this CLF WCK fusion, evidentally fail because the WCK core fade away a few a while. lead the art to become a different type of art which is closer to CLF and losing WCK part. These are experiments the ancestors have done, I just report what has happening for your information.

[hskwarrior]

yeah, all that history is just garbage anyway.

The Tien Di Hui, is the mother of them all. And, yes, IT may have been established in the 1600's. BUT, and this is a HUGE BUT........the Hung Mun was established by the 5 shaolin monks who survived the destruction of the Temple.

The Hung Mun it self, was established in the late 1700's.....closer to 1800. You will find when you do MORE research, that there are many accounts of the History.

Suffice it to say, I will go with the history according TO the Hung Mun, and not what others have to say.

In fact, this is something i've been sitting on for some time now, not saying anything about it. But, from my research, i've been wondering if this person really was one of Chan Heung's sifu's. I'm speaking about Chan Yuen Wu. Now, one of the 5 shaolin monks of the Hung Mun (Tsai Te Chung) changed his name to Chan Yuen. And, its very well possible that Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Yuen are one and the same, because as its told, Chan Heung sent Jeung Yim to his gung fu uncle (Ching Cho or Green Grass Monk). Chan Yuen and Ching Cho were to first two of the 5 Ancestors of the Hung Mun.

[Hendrik]

yeah, all that history is just garbage anyway.

The Tien Di Hui, is the mother of them all. And, yes, IT may have been established in the 1600's. BUT, and this is a HUGE BUT........the Hung Mun was established by the 5 shaolin monks who survived the destruction of the Temple.

The Hung Mun it self, was established in the late 1700's.....closer to 1800. You will find when you do MORE research, that there are many accounts of the History.

Suffice it to say, I will go with the history according TO the Hung Mun, and not what others have to say.

In fact, this is something i've been sitting on for some time now, not saying anything about it. But, from my research, i've been wondering if this person really was one of Chan Heung's sifu's. I'm speaking about Chan Yuen Wu. Now, one of the 5 shaolin monks of the Hung Mun (Tsai Te Chung) changed his name to Chan Yuen. And, its very well possible that Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Yuen are one and the same, because as its told, Chan Heung sent Jeung Yim to his gung fu uncle (Ching Cho or Green Grass Monk). Chan Yuen and Ching Cho were to first two of the 5 Ancestors of the Hung Mun.



This is not easy because those people uses nick name and sometimes even using old stories character to cover thier real identity.

and the story of burning of Shao LIn is something the Hung Mun people uses to making thier version of "HIs-Story".

My bottom line, is I respect what the ancestors passed down, and the key point is the information to preserve the art or making the art alive.

[Hendrik]

Thanks!

Good to know these from you.

[hskwarrior]

NP hendric.....

I deleted my ancestor tablet cause you have seen it now.....doesn't need to be up any longer.

[Hendrik]

Thanks and appreciate!

[goju]

its amazing how they basically are all the same when you think of it yet they have all these unique attributes as well

mys tyle usues the whipping dan tien power from the crane
ive studied a few southern styles as well and their are so many underlying similiarities its easy to pick up one once you learned the other