Boxing.

[AdrianK]

Anyone have any examples of kung fu being applied with the padded gloves in any amateur or professional competitions? (Alan Orr's camp excluded, we already know they're pretty **** good fighters)


That being said, I'd like to get an idea of what some of the kung fu world thinks about boxing. In one of my old schools it was looked at as simply a way to apply jab, cross, hook, uppercut, combinations, slips and weaves. :rolleyes:

How would you, as a southern kung fu stylist, explain what boxing is?

[David Jamieson]

Anyone have any examples of kung fu being applied with the padded gloves in any amateur or professional competitions? (Alan Orr's camp excluded, we already know they're pretty **** good fighters)


That being said, I'd like to get an idea of what some of the kung fu world thinks about boxing. In one of my old schools it was looked at as simply a way to apply jab, cross, hook, uppercut, combinations, slips and weaves. :rolleyes:

How would you, as a southern kung fu stylist, explain what boxing is?

why would a southern kungfu stylist explain what boxing is?

that would be like asking a boxer to explain what wrestling is?

southern kungfu practice is not limited to tactics in a ring.

it also in some styles contains qigongs, various device training methodologies and a variety of different ways of going about ones training from conditioning methods to actual technique development.

Having said that, I used to box and am ranked in amateur standings.

Boxing is stand up fighting, using only the fists, no striking below the belt or to the back, no kicking, no biting, no throwing, if you are clinched too long without any strikes being thrown you will be separated and you must begin again. You lose points for non aggressivness (not entering, not initiating attack). YOu can win by points or by knock out both for real and technically.

Primary strikes are jab, cross, hook and uppercut with range and level variations for each.

primary defense are covers, pats, pushes and chops and unconventional methods (whatever works for you so long as it doesn't break the rules)

boxing totally rolls into most striking martial arts including southern styles of chinese martial arts which all have jab, cross, hook and upper cut.

jab = short strike from the lead leg (yut gee choy, straight punch)
cross = strike across the body (ping choy, charp choy)
hook = hooking punch (sow choy)
uppercut = hooking punch from below (pao choy)

[AdrianK]

why would a southern kungfu stylist explain what boxing is?

Because its a worldwide sport that has similar concepts and techniques in common. And SOME southern stylists compete actively in this sport and MMA. However, since boxing has extreme limitations on what you can do, it'd be great to hear how people deal with that.


that would be like asking a boxer to explain what wrestling is?

Or to ask them what they think about wrestling in general, absolutely. It'd be interesting to see what they thought of that too.


southern kungfu practice is not limited to tactics in a ring.

But this thread is limited to that.


it also in some styles contains qigongs, various device training methodologies and a variety of different ways of going about ones training from conditioning methods to actual technique development.

We know this :rolleyes:


Having said that, I used to box and am ranked in amateur standings.

Where are you ranked? :D


As for the rest of your post, thats all I wanted to hear :p

[David Jamieson]

Because its a worldwide sport that has similar concepts and techniques in common. And SOME southern stylists compete actively in this sport and MMA. However, since boxing has extreme limitations on what you can do, it'd be great to hear how people deal with that.[quote]

It's not limited for it's venue. It's not trained as a self defense art. It's not approached from taht vector and it's not actually suitable in a great deal of scenarios. If it's all you got, then it's all you got.




[quote]Or to ask them what they think about wrestling in general, absolutely. It'd be interesting to see what they thought of that too. You did ask how someone would explain it to a southern stylist.



But this thread is limited to that.
Why?



We know this :rolleyes:
Why minimize it?




Where are you ranked? :D
Orioles C.C, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.


As for the rest of your post, thats all I wanted to hear :p
Why didn't you just ask about boxing then?

[wetwonder]

I don't know all that much about Bruce Lee, but I've seen his interviews. He took a lot from boxing. Mainly, that the main idea is to avoid 100 punches, while looking to get in one good shot. Boxers use footwork, bob and weave, and you can see Bruce Lee do some of that in his style. I always that he was kind of cool for taking a intelligent look at boxing style.

[David Jamieson]

There's also quite a lot of training that revolves around taking a strike and recovering,how to position yourself to do that and how to condition yourself to do that.

bobbing and weaving and footwork to avoid being struck is available in most martial arts.

[wetwonder]

But in boxing, there is an overarching priority to not get hit. Every part of training has that as the emphasis. Move when your not punching, move while you are punching. It's referred to as parrying and is the most important element passed from trainer onto boxer. Punching takes a far second to evading. Remember Ali-Foreman, where Foreman threw hundreds of punches and Ali just kept evading. And then Ali took him apart with half a dozen shots. That's where boxing is unique, and I believe the part that Bruce Lee took from it.

[David Jamieson]

But in boxing, there is an overarching priority to not get hit. Every part of training has that as the emphasis. Move when your not punching, move while you are punching. It's referred to as parrying and is the most important element passed from trainer onto boxer. Punching takes a far second to evading. Remember Ali-Foreman, where Foreman threw hundreds of punches and Ali just kept evading. And then Ali took him apart with half a dozen shots. That's where boxing is unique, and I believe the part that Bruce Lee took from it.

not at all. it's not about NOT getting hit at all. It's about getting as many strikes in on the legal targets as you can.

It's not about avoiding being hit, it's about how many times you can hit and and make it count.

conditioning is key. you gotta be able to eat it because you will eat it.

ali used to use a thing called rope-a-dope, whereby he'd relax on the ropes while you pounded away at him and got tired. Then he'd drop you.

too much mobility makes you tired. move if you have to, when you have to. don't waste your energy. yeah you want to duck and set up, but sometimes you're in like flynn and you gotta give and take.

Being able to "take it" is key to success in any martial art. any martial art that doesn't spend any time on you "taking it" is a waste of time in my opinion from a martial standpoint because it is setting you up for failure not to mention a very short sharp shock soon. lol :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing does live up to the turisim of :
maximum efficincy and minimal effort.

[Violent Designs]

Boxing does live up to the turisim of :
maximum efficincy and minimal effort.

I thought, that is what Wing Chun is suppose to be?

[wetwonder]

not at all. it's not about NOT getting hit at all. It's about getting as many strikes in on the legal targets as you can.

It's not about avoiding being hit, it's about how many times you can hit and and make it count.

conditioning is key. you gotta be able to eat it because you will eat it.

ali used to use a thing called rope-a-dope, whereby he'd relax on the ropes while you pounded away at him and got tired. Then he'd drop you.

too much mobility makes you tired. move if you have to, when you have to. don't waste your energy. yeah you want to duck and set up, but sometimes you're in like flynn and you gotta give and take.

Being able to "take it" is key to success in any martial art. any martial art that doesn't spend any time on you "taking it" is a waste of time in my opinion from a martial standpoint because it is setting you up for failure not to mention a very short sharp shock soon. lol :)

Interesting, but your wrong. Bear in mind, DJ, that most of the time you are exactly right. But not this time. I know quite a bit about boxing, and can assure you that you are wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought, that is what Wing Chun is suppose to be?

:D
Indeed, indeed my friend.

[lkfmdc]

But in boxing, there is an overarching priority to not get hit. Every part of training has that as the emphasis. Move when your not punching, move while you are punching. It's referred to as parrying and is the most important element passed from trainer onto boxer. Punching takes a far second to evading. Remember Ali-Foreman, where Foreman threw hundreds of punches and Ali just kept evading. And then Ali took him apart with half a dozen shots. That's where boxing is unique, and I believe the part that Bruce Lee took from it.

whgere oh where did you get this wonderful boxing wisdom :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having been coached in two continents, Europe and Canada, I cna say that, while NOT gettiung hit is always a good thing, every caoch I had alway said that you are GONNA get hit.
learn how to take it and make him pay for it, learn how to hit where he can get to you, learn how to move so that when he hits it doesn't hurt( as much), but all within the context of HITTING HIM more times ( Europe) or harder ( N.America).

[lkfmdc]

That being said, I'd like to get an idea of what some of the kung fu world thinks about boxing.



the REAL Chinese martial arts people seemed to have embraced boxing (just one example) (http://www.jiangschool.com/Images/BOXER.jpg)

[wetwonder]

whgere oh where did you get this wonderful boxing wisdom :rolleyes:

From learning. I'm not a boxer and didn't invent this. It's just what it is. There are countless sources on the principle. For example (quoted in many books on boxing):


"The number one rule of boxing is "Don't get hit!" It is only after a boxer has successfully mastered the "Don't get hit!" part that he can really worry about landing blows of his own."

- Tom Sulles, 2 time welter weight champion, coach of Notre Dame mens boxing for 30 years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From learning. I'm not a boxer and didn't invent this. It's just what it is. There are countless sources on the principle. For example (quoted in many books on boxing):


"The number one rule of boxing is "Don't get hit!" It is only after a boxer has successfully mastered the "Don't get hit!" part that he can really worry about landing blows of his own."

- Tom Sulles, 2 time welter weight champion, coach of Notre Dame mens boxing for 30 years.

Well, not to argue with Tom, but one of the best ways not to get hit is to hit the other guy !
The other guy can hit you if he is getting hit...
If only I can remember which trainer of champions said that one?
Anyways...
Cus D'Amato was found of saying that boxing was all about angles and footwork, to hit from where the other guy can't hit you.
Emmanuel Stewart would say stuff like, "work the jab and keep him on the defensive".
Dundee would often coach his fighters to, ah well...you get the picture.

[lkfmdc]

From learning.



is that supposed to be English? :confused:



I'm not a boxer



that's very obvious from your posts



There are countless sources on the principle. For example (quoted in many books on boxing):




I really suggest you go out and actually DO some boxing, then you'll understand it better and not make such strange (and inaccurate) statements....

[wetwonder]

is that supposed to be English? :confused:



that's very obvious from your posts



I really suggest you go out and actually DO some boxing, then you'll understand it better and not make such strange (and inaccurate) statements....


You seem to go derrogatory and on the attack when someone disagrees with you. If I'm hurting your feelings when I express a different opinion, than I'll try and not respond to your posts.

Try and take a lead from S. Ronin. He remains composed when someone offers a viewpoint different from his own.

[m1k3]

wetwonder, as long as we are throwing quotes around. Sugar Ray Lenard, once of the best defensive boxers ever is quoted as saying "All boxers get hit, good boxer don't get hit as often".

You can't box and not get hit. Its like trying to swim without getting wet. :D

[wetwonder]

I agree. That quote is not contrary. I never said not to expect to be hit.

The strategy I'm explaining is - to purpose every movement on not getting hit. IMO boxing is the art of landing a punch while not getting hit.

Watch a fight and break down what the good boxer does. Watch Joe Frazier. He is constantly moving forward, side to side and back. Constantly dodging his head left and right, up and down. He bobs his head almost everytime he throws a punch. Except for the exceptional huge hitters, like Marciano and Foreman and Tyson, all the good boxers prevail by not having their head where the oponents punch lands. The better you are at this, the less you'll get hit, and usually, the better fighter you'll be.

I attend most of the club and small arena fights here in Philly. It's pretty easy to see how good a boxer is in the first minute of the fight. If he doesn't make it priority "1" to keep his head out of the airspace where the other fighter is throwing, he is 19 times out of 20 going to lose.

I think it's hard to argue with this, but feel free.

[lkfmdc]

You seem to go derrogatory and on the attack when someone disagrees with you. If I'm hurting your feelings when I express a different opinion, than I'll try and not respond to your posts.



LMFAO, I'm not the one getting butthurt here :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but as someone with vastly more experience than you, I am just pointing out you are wrong. If you don't want to be told you are wrong, blog or do something else, this is a two way conversation here

"from learning" means what exactly? Well, apparently, from reading some books as opposed to actually training boxing. Sanjuro and I (and others here) have actually trained boxing. BIG DIFFERENCE

Some of us here also have close to three decades of CMA background. If that makes you uncomfortable, so be it

[m1k3]

We are almost in agreement.

You said "IMO boxing is the art of landing a punch while not getting hit" while I see it as landing a punch while getting hit as little as possible.

Its a small difference in style but a big difference in attitude. Boxers who worry too much about getting hit seldom generate very much offensive and god forbid if you ever pair two of them against each other, that fight will be long, slow and boring.

Having too much defense can be as bad as having too little defense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The strategy I'm explaining is - to purpose every movement on not getting hit. IMO boxing is the art of landing a punch while not getting hit.


I don't agree, the purpose of boxing is to hit ( #1 Priority) without getting hit.
All of boxing's foot work is base don that, that is why there are so very few blocks in boxing, but the majority is evasions and parries to get you into counter postitions or stop-hits and simutaneous counters.

[wetwonder]

Like M1k3 said, I dont' think we are that far separated in opinion. It's good to get viewpoints from folks that have been in the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like M1k3 said, I dont' think we are that far separated in opinion. It's good to get viewpoints from folks that have been in the ring.

AH bro, we are just discussing opinions, fact is, the priority of defense over offense or vice-versa, depends on the fighter and what they are best at.

[lkfmdc]

enter an amateur (USA BOXING) event, avoid/block/slip 95% of the shots and don't throw any shots and see what happens (hint: you will NOT win)

[sanjuro_ronin]

enter an amateur (USA BOXING) event, avoid/block/slip 95% of the shots and don't throw any shots and see what happens (hint: you will NOT win)

I hazard to say this but, in amateur boxing defense is almost irrelevant.

[lkfmdc]

I hazard to say this but, in amateur boxing defense is almost irrelevant.

dare to say it! hazard to say it! SAY IT :mad:

where I am, it's about how many times you can touch the guy, literally, anything at all is scored, oh, except body shots :rolleyes:

[Pork Chop]

enter an amateur (USA BOXING) event, avoid/block/slip 95% of the shots and don't throw any shots and see what happens (hint: you will NOT win)

I happen to like Willie Pep, Pernell Whitaker, and Benny Leonard. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

dare to say it! hazard to say it! SAY IT :mad:

where I am, it's about how many times you can touch the guy, literally, anything at all is scored, oh, except body shots :rolleyes:

LMAO !
Too true, all too true.

[Pork Chop]

dare to say it! hazard to say it! SAY IT :mad:

where I am, it's about how many times you can touch the guy, literally, anything at all is scored, oh, except body shots :rolleyes:

While i agree with you in principle about the judging, at the last golden glove tournament i had 1 friend score a KO, 1 friend get KOed, and 1 friend who had his nose & ribs broken in a winning effort but couldn't fight the next round. Of course I had a 4th friend lose on points to a guy he knocked down but got outscored him with pitter patter punches.

[lkfmdc]

While i agree with you in principle about the judging, at the last golden glove tournament i had 1 friend score a KO, 1 friend get KOed, and 1 friend who had his nose & ribs broken in a winning effort but couldn't fight the next round. Of course I had a 4th friend lose on points to a guy he knocked down but got outscored him with pitter patter punches.

of course some people go out and try and KO eachother but in NY at least the top gyms realize it isn't necessary and has nothing to do with winning, ie you can pitty patt your way to national titles