OT: does obama bring change?

[1bad65]

That's just evidence that he might have used in his trial.

That he is Constitutionally entitled to.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? This story just broke this morning and unless you're privy to dealings in the federal justice system I doubt you know very much about it.

The article was pretty clear. Well, at least to us who can read and understand written English.

The word "apparent" was enough for the US Attorney General. ;)

[1bad65]

I have never used a dealer for service and if I could avoid dealers for purchasing, I would.

You're in the minority. Dealerships make a majority of their their money on used car sales and service.

We take our Stangs to the same dealer we bought them at for scheduled maintenance. My wife had a problem with hers, and we took it there also for the warranty work. However, for the aftermarket parts we put on mine, I go to a local speed shop.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're in the minority. Dealerships make a majority of their their money on used car sales and service.

Not here.
Non-warranty dealer work is the minority.
Most people avoid dealer service because its, well, horrible, the lowest in terms of customer satisfaction according to a survey done a few years ago.

[1bad65]

David Lane has done the best he could. It's my understanding that Lane had some very vocal objections to the instructions given to the jury before deliberations byt all were overruled....no matter. That just gives us more excuses if the case does not go our way.

It's hilarious how you consider yourself so genuis, yet you have fallen completely for a second-rate con man's lies.

[1bad65]

Not here.
Non-warranty dealer work is the minority.
Most people avoid dealer service because its, well, horrible, the lowest in terms of customer satisfaction according to a survey done a few years ago.

I do know the Ford dealer we use is very customer oriented. They make a point of that. We get questionares in the mail quite alot asking about our experience. We even got a phone call (asking about their service) when we used a dealer in Riverside, California when we were on vacation there.

The local Dodge dealer was very nice when I went to buy parts for my Jeep, but they ignored me when I went in to look at Challengers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chrysler has the worse customer service record, its putrid.

[GLW]

Amazing - is it that it is April Fools day or is the end near... Bad and I agree on something... :)

Basically, I view corruption in a political official as being almost as serious a crime as murder. In essence, is the corrupt politician not murdering the trust of the populace and in a very real way, murdering the principles underlying a true democratic republic?

Personally, I really don't care which side of the aisle the person is on, if they are guilty of selling their position, they should be imprisoned.

In one idea I read about, it provided that the punishment for accepting a bribe or influence pedaling was that both sides lost everything.

How would if be if an official who accepted any favor due to their position, on being found guilty, lost all of their property as well as any professional licensing and their position. It would be such a high price to pay, no one would consider it.

[BoulderDawg]

Bad since you're the legal expert here and know about this Stevens trail (Even though the facts haven't been made public yet!:D) I have a question for you:

Why would the federal justice system under the Bush admin and AG go out of it's way to railroad a conservative senator?

[1bad65]

Chrysler has the worse customer service record, its putrid.

I can totally believe that.

When I went in to look at Mustangs, I was treated like a king. I was test driving one within 5 minutes. When I went to look at Challengers I had to track down a salesman and I never got to drive one.

[BoulderDawg]

Just a little clarification on the Churchill trial:

From "Race to the bottom":

The last morning of testimony consisted of two regents: Steven Bosley and Thomas Lucero. There testimony had added relevance since the judge ruled at the end of the day that one of the jury instructions was going to state that Churchill would need to show retaliation for the protected 9/11 Essay was a substantial motivating factor by a majority of the board members of the CU Board of Regents. Moreover, Lane was continually frustrated that the judge prevented him from pursuing the ACTA (American Council of Trustees and Alumni) line of questions with these two trustees to show their connection to the agenda espoused by ACTA regarding tenure and balance in the classroom. He passionately stated that this line of questioning goes to the heart of the case and was not irrelevant as the judge ruled. Lane objected and wanted the objection preserved for appealing the case if necessary.

Nothing here that I didn't expect from a conservative judge. Of course this is going to be a struggle.

[1bad65]

Amazing - is it that it is April Fools day or is the end near... Bad and I agree on something... :)

Basically, I view corruption in a political official as being almost as serious a crime as murder. In essence, is the corrupt politician not murdering the trust of the populace and in a very real way, murdering the principles underlying a true democratic republic?

Personally, I really don't care which side of the aisle the person is on, if they are guilty of selling their position, they should be imprisoned.

In one idea I read about, it provided that the punishment for accepting a bribe or influence pedaling was that both sides lost everything.

How would if be if an official who accepted any favor due to their position, on being found guilty, lost all of their property as well as any professional licensing and their position. It would be such a high price to pay, no one would consider it.

And we agree again!

Keep in mind, if you are caught with drugs you can lose your house and cars (even before you are indicted or convicted). In certain areas you can lose your cars for racing. But if you get caught with bribes, you get to keep the money!

Also, Comrade Obama is now trying to tie salaries of CEOs of companies who get bailout money to performance. Of course, he is not proposing we hold Congress to the same standard. And in both cases, it's taxpayer money. What's the difference?

Now some states have laws on the books that perjury in a capitol case can get you charged with murder. I know California is one.

[BoulderDawg]

Here we go again:

The NY congressional race, Murphy(Dem) and Tidisco(GOP) is separated by 65 votes. They are waiting to count absentee ballots.......

Wait and see, if the Neo lose this race by a few hundred vote all hell will break lose. Just like with Franken they will use the legal system to try and tie it up until the next election.

[BoulderDawg]

Now some states have laws on the books that perjury in a capitol case can get you charged with murder. I know California is one.

Source for that?

[1bad65]

The NY congressional race, Murphy(Dem) and Tidisco(GOP) is separated by 65 votes. They are waiting to count absentee ballots.......

Wait and see, if the Neo lose this race by a few hundred vote all hell will break lose. Just like with Franken they will use the legal system to try and tie it up until the next election.

If the absentee ballots are mostly military, Tidisco will win easily.

Dude, your party set the standard in 2000. Don't act like it's a one-way street.

[1bad65]

Source for that?

I'll dig it up later. But it was mentioned alot during the OJ trial.

[BoulderDawg]

Dude, your party set the standard in 2000. Don't act like it's a one-way street.

That's not my party.

Best of my recollection the Bush v Gore case didn't last very long. It was over in less than two months. Also, Gore did the right thing and conceded.

In these recent cases the neos are abusing the system simply to prevent anyone from taking the seat. If Murphy wins the GOP will use every last tool they have to prevent him from being seated.

[1bad65]

Source for that?

"Appendix 3: The Definition of a Capital Offense across States

California. First-degree murder with specialcircumstances; train wrecking; treason;perjury causing execution."

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:h-zT4sXDbpYJ:www.minneapolisfed.org/mea/contest/2003papers/jha.pdf+california+%22capital+crime%22+charged+per jury+%22causing+execution%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

There ya go. See how it works? ;)

[BoulderDawg]

"Appendix 3: The Definition of a Capital Offense across States

California. First-degree murder with specialcircumstances; train wrecking; treason;perjury causing execution."

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:h-zT4sXDbpYJ:www.minneapolisfed.org/mea/contest/2003papers/jha.pdf+california+%22capital+crime%22+charged+per jury+%22causing+execution%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

There ya go. See how it works? ;)


However that's not what you said. You said

Now some states have laws on the books that perjury in a capitol case can get you charged with murder. I know California is one.

You did not mention anything about the only way you are charged with murder is if they execute the person you testified against......How many people been executed in Cal lately?:D

Get all your fact before you present your point.

[BoulderDawg]

A little more about the Murphy/Tidisco race:

The district is heavily conservative, Murphy was a total unknown and Tidisco had a 21 point lead not long ago.....yet the vote total is, more or less, dead even......Kinda tells ya a little about how popular the GOP is these days.:D

[SharkyT]

I'll dig it up later. But it was mentioned alot during the OJ trial.

SO was isotoner gloves and bruno magli shoes;)

[SharkyT]

I thought you guys, might enjoy this . We all know 1bad , will continue to think a black man is getting away with murder at the end of the video. So relax 1bad, it is not real.What the ****, he is probably busy reading the turner diaries and mein kampf, goose stepping with the neighbors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1cgHEWG-BA

[Drake]

I've never seen 1Bad say a single racist thing.

[BoulderDawg]

I thought you guys, might enjoy this . We all know 1bad , will continue to think a black man is getting away with murder at the end of the video. So relax 1bad, it is not real.What the ****, he is probably busy reading the turner diaries and mein kampf, goose stepping with the neighbors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1cgHEWG-BA

Well I sure as hell hope they find the correct black man who did this vicious crime!:eek:
To bad you can't even camp in a bear preserve because of these black criminals!:D

[SharkyT]

Well I sure as hell hope they find the correct black man who did this vicious crime!:eek:
To bad you can't even camp in a bear preserve because of these black criminals!:D

Defintely. Somehow 1bad will blame Obama for this
Something I miss watching it the first time, was the mother bear in the far distance in the photograph of the victim and the two cubs.

[BoulderDawg]

Funniest thing: I got home tonight and started flippin channels.....there was Billo the clown!:D His topic for the tonight: Ashley Biden.......Sweet!

I almost died laughing. He had this woman on the show who said "I went to all of these right wing neo blogs and not one of them NOT ONE!!!!! had anything bad to say about Ashley yet you go to a left wing website and Bristol Palin is just savaged!!!!!!!!!!!:D

I didn't know about this until today but apparently someone is trying to sell a video of Ashley Biden doing coke!:D

Hell, I'll party with Ashley any day over Bristol Palin. Not only is she much nicer looking but I like a girl who has other skills that don't involve laying on her back!:D

[SharkyT]

Funniest thing: I got home tonight and started flippin channels.....there was Billo the clown!:D His topic for the tonight: Ashley Biden.......Sweet!

I almost died laughing. He had this woman on the show who said "I went to all of these right wing neo blogs and not one of them NOT ONE!!!!! had anything bad to say about Ashley yet you go to a left wing website and Bristol Palin is just savaged!!!!!!!!!!!:D

I didn't know about this until today but apparently someone is trying to sell a video of Ashley Biden doing coke!:D

Hell, I'll party with Ashley any day over Bristol Palin. Not only is she much nicer looking but I like a girl who has other skills that don't involve laying on her back!:D

Amen to that. Bill-O is the devil's pinworm. The right wing is ****ed that no one is paying attention to Asley's partying and snorting cocaine. I cant blame her..I have been to Delaware. PThey are bunch of hypocrites. We are against premartial sex, yet dont criticize us.
Palin used her daughter. Just like she used Trig, always pulling that kid out of the guitar case during the campaign. Poor kid probably on was no- doz and baby bottles with red bull.

Definitely would go with Ashley over Palin. Palin gives me this "play Misty for me vibe"

[Drake]

"There is the real university world, and there is the Ward Churchill world," O'Rourke said. "What we saw is that Ward Churchill can justify everything and explain nothing. What we have seen at the end of the day is that in Ward Churchill's world there are no standards and no accountability."

Sound like someone we know, 1Bad? :D

[1bad65]

You did not mention anything about the only way you are charged with murder is if they execute the person you testified against......How many people been executed in Cal lately?:D

Get all your fact before you present your point.

Dude, I was mistaken on that part. But the main point is that you can indeed face the death penalty for some cases of perjury.

[1bad65]

A little more about the Murphy/Tidisco race:

The district is heavily conservative, Murphy was a total unknown and Tidisco had a 21 point lead not long ago.....yet the vote total is, more or less, dead even......Kinda tells ya a little about how popular the GOP is these days.:D

That was a special election.

What Party held that seat before the special election? ;)

[1bad65]

"There is the real university world, and there is the Ward Churchill world," O'Rourke said. "What we saw is that Ward Churchill can justify everything and explain nothing. What we have seen at the end of the day is that in Ward Churchill's world there are no standards and no accountability."

Sound like someone we know, 1Bad? :D

Sure does.

Once again I mention this: The plagiarizing poseur claimed that every person he used as a 'source' gave him permission to use their work. Yet he called NONE of them to the stand in his defense.

[Lokhopkuen]

Obama Depressed, Distant Since ‘Battlestar Galactica’ Series Finale.....:( (http://nmancer.net/?p=4364)

[BoulderDawg]

Dude, I was mistaken on that part. But the main point is that you can indeed face the death penalty for some cases of perjury.

Seems like you're mistaken on a lot of things!:D

I find it funny. You are suspose to get a pass for screwing up a two sentence post on a BB yet Ward has to write two dozen books and nameless essays error free!:eek:

By the way, you speak from ignorance. No one has to "Get permission" to use someone's work in their research. I can tell you've never read any Churchill. About a third of any Churchill book is footnotes. If Ward, or anyone else for that matter, had to get permission before sourcing someone's work then research would never get done.:rolleyes:

**************

The jury is still out.........I think if we go until the end of tomorrow we might be looking at a hung jury. Probably some A hole Neo hanging it 5-1.:D

[1bad65]

I find it funny. You are suspose to get a pass for screwing up a two sentence post on a BB yet Ward has to write two dozen books and nameless essays error free!:eek:

I made a mistake. I didn't steal someone else's work.

By the way, you speak from ignorance. No one has to "Get permission" to use someone's work in their research.

That was HIS excuse. I just stated what HE said, then questioned why HE never called ANY of them to the stand.

[1bad65]

"*All* of the fabricated facts are still unaccounted for. Churchill's defense is that when he said that Army officers passed out blankets, he really meant the local Indian agent, not the Army. When he said that Army doctors violated quarantine, he really meant a fur trader doing home remedies, not Army doctors. When he said blankets came from a military infirmary in St. Louis, he really meant that a fur trader brought them from Baltimore. And when he said Mandan Indians at Fort Clark, he didn't really mean the Mandans, he meant all of the Plains tribes to the north of Fort Clark.

In other words, Churchill no longer defends any of the fabricated elements of his published tale. The Army, the Mandans, and Fort Clark have all disappeared from his latest conspiracy theory. If he can bamboozle an intelligent law professor with such nonsense, then I think he probably bamboozled the jury too."

http://www.pirateballerina.com/

[BoulderDawg]

Cautious optimism in the Churchill trial.

The jury has sent questions to the judge about how much Ward should be awarded in damages....That sounds good.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2009/apr/02/ward-churchill-trial-blog-jury-university-colorado/

To be honest, and I'm sure Ward would agree with me, as long as he gets his job back I'm sure he would be satisfied. I'm not quite sure as to how this works but I'm assuming if he wins the least he'll get is his job back. I can't imagine finding for Churchill and saying "You win but you get nothing". If that happens I'm sure that Lane will appeal.

In any case we'll see how it goes.

[1bad65]

The jury cannot give him his job back.

Even if they are fooled by the con artist like you are, they can only give him money. But that's what all con men want anyway. ;)

[1bad65]

If he has a party, and you go, be sure to ask him to see his DD 214. :D

[BoulderDawg]

The jury cannot give him his job back.

Even if they are fooled by the con artist like you are, they can only give him money. But that's what all con men want anyway. ;)


Let's just see what happens. There has been a verdict and it should come down any moment.

[1bad65]

Let's just see what happens. There has been a verdict and it should come down any moment.

Trust me, the law says the jury cannot give him his job back.

[1bad65]

"Lane told the jury that only Judge Naves can decide on whether to reinstate Churchill to his job at CU. The jury's only consideration if they find in the former professor's favor is to whether to award damages and how much money to award him.

"Churchill did not ask for a nickel. He just wants his job back," Lane said. "You don't have the power to give him his job back. In America, the dollar solves all problems. What are damages in this case, damages are justice. You know he is out $110,000 a year on salary.

"What is a man's reputation worth to have been paraded through the national media, having been a distinguished scholar and a professor for 30 years to give a voice for people like dead Arabic kids in Iraq who do not have a voice in this country it's worth a hell of a lot more than a little bit of money, but that is justice."

What? This isn't about Churchill getting his (sniff) job back? It's just about the money? We feel like we can never trust Lane again."

http://www.pirateballerina.com/

[1bad65]

Sadly, the plagiarist has won.

Maybe Madoff should have gambled on a jury trial. ;)

[1bad65]

The plagiarist's attorney asked the jury, "What is a man's reputation worth to have been paraded through the national media, having been a distinguished scholar and a professor for 30 years..."

It appears we have the answer..........

$1! :D

[BoulderDawg]

Ward wins!!!!!!!!!!!!

His reputation has been restored. It has been proven by a court of law that Ward was fired because of his 9/11 essay.

Now getting his job back is just going to be a mere formality. CU has no other reason left for firing a tenured professor.

Forget the dollar amount....By the way, speaking of money, CU is now going to have to pay Ward's legal fees.....that's not going to be a small amount.

To be honest I didn't think we would win. I thought we would have to go through the appeals process!

The is a win for America!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BoulderDawg]

Bad, I'm waiting for your apology to Professor Churchill.

[1bad65]

Bad, I'm waiting for your apology to Professor Churchill.

I don't apologize to frauds, liars, plagiarists, and art thieves.

I told you already, let me know if he has book signing open to the public in Austin. I'll show up and spit in his face for being a phony veteran. And I'll tape it. I'm not intimidated by him like women and heart attack victims are.

Tell your buddy not to spend it all in one place! :D

[1bad65]

Which costs more: A Happy Meal or the plagiarists jury award? :D

[BoulderDawg]

I don't apologize to frauds, liars, plagiarists, and art thieves.

I told you already, let me know if he has book signing open to the public in Austin. I'll show up and spit in his face for being a phony veteran. And I'll tape it. I'm not intimidated by him like women and heart attack victims are.

Tell your buddy not to spend it all in one place! :D

Doesn't surprise me. Neos have always been "My way or the highway" sore losers.

One thing I know for sure: Liberals have the morals and class not to spit into anyone's face...no matter who that person might be.

If that's your plan I say go ahead. Of course you know that you'll go to jail when you do it....you'll probably get a few lumps on the head to boot when security knocks you to the ground to prevent further attack.

[1bad65]

If that's your plan I say go ahead. Of course you know that you'll go to jail when you do it....you'll probably get a few lumps on the head to boot when security knocks you to the ground to prevent further attack.

Doesn't scare me at all. I've been pulled off people before.

I have bail money. It's all good.

I'll just think of all the REAL veterans and I'll still smile.

[1bad65]

$1! The absolute minimum! It can go no lower!

It's just too good. What's his reputation worth? What's his education worth? What does he bring to the table?

Uh, that would be $1!

[1bad65]

The fraud Uri Gellar sued James Randi years ago and won. His award.....$1!

It's like history repeats itself. ;)

[BoulderDawg]

$1! The absolute minimum! It can go no lower!

It's just too good. What's his reputation worth? What's his education worth? What does he bring to the table?

Uh, that would be $1!

That cool!

When they have a hearing to decide if Ward gets his job back and the Judge ask CU:

"Why should Professor Churchill not be given his job back?"

What are they going to say that would make sense?:D

Here's some of what the judge said when he charged the jury:

If you find in the Plaintiff’s favor with respect to each of the facts that the Plaintiff must prove, you must then decide whether the Defendants have shown by a preponderance of the evidence that the Plaintiff would have been dismissed for other reasons even in the absence of the protected speech activity. If you find that the Plaintiff would have been dismissed for reasons apart from the speech activity, then your verdict should be for the Defendants.

The jury made it clear they believe that no other reason was involved in firing Ward Churchill. For the judge to completely ignore the jury's ruling and deny Professor Churchill's reinstallation would be tantamount to bias and strong grounds for appeal.......Especially since in his instructions to the jury the judge over ruled every objection that David Lane made to his instructions which were totally slanted towards finding for CU. In other word this judge will have some splaining to do should he not give Ward his job back!:D

[BoulderDawg]

The fraud Uri Gellar sued James Randi years ago and won. His award.....$1!

As far as I know none of this had to do with freedom of speech. Also, as far as I know, neither of these gentlemen are being paid by my tax dollars.:cool:

[BoulderDawg]

By the way Bad, Not only do you owe an apology to Professor Churchill but also to my friend and brother Professor Means.

We are all relatives today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[1bad65]

Don't hold your breath.

I don't apologize to those who exploit minorities for their own personal gain either.

[BoulderDawg]

Didn't someone once say:

"It's morning again in America!"

[1bad65]

By the way Bad, Not only do you owe an apology to Professor Churchill but also to my friend and brother Professor Means.

Are you also claiming to be a full-blooded Indian now?:rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Are you also claiming to be a full-blooded Indian now?:rolleyes:


Well I guess since Russ is my brother then it must be so.

[Drake]

I posted his plagiarism. It's pretty cut and dry. There's no need to apologize for anything except the jury.

The only thing the case was about, mind you, was whether or not the fraud was busted because of his 9/11 propaganda. For that, I blame CU for failing to uphold any sort of standard and only checking their faculty for lies, fraud, and misconduct when pressed. They should've dumped him years ago. This is a tragic blow to the native american community, when so-called sympathetic white people herald as their hero a man who stole a job reserved for them, insulted their community, and was essentially banned from the tribe.

I posted evidence, and fortunately, except for people quoting him, I don't have to hear BD's ramblings, which I'm sure will dodge any evidence put forth.

[1bad65]

I posted his plagiarism. It's pretty cut and dry. There's no need to apologize for anything except the jury.

The only thing the case was about, mind you, was whether or not the fraud was busted because of his 9/11 propaganda. For that, I blame CU for failing to uphold any sort of standard and only checking their faculty for lies, fraud, and misconduct when pressed. They should've dumped him years ago. This is a tragic blow to the native american community, when so-called sympathetic white people herald as their hero a man who stole a job reserved for them, insulted their community, and was essentially banned from the tribe.

I posted evidence, and fortunately, except for people quoting him, I don't have to hear BD's ramblings, which I'm sure will dodge any evidence put forth.

That's exactly what my link http://www.pirateballerina.com/ said about it.

"CU's Achilles' heel has always been its own sloth and incompetence, in the hiring process, the investigatory process, and finally, in the legal defense process. CU administrators were aware that Churchill's scholarship qualifications consisted of a few mostly co-authored screeds on the usual leftist memes, and a masters degree in a bonehead major from an experimental college, yet they hired him as an Ethnic Studies professor with tenure. And CU administrators were made aware of serious problems with Churchill's version(s) of history long before the "Little Eichmanns" essay re-emerged from obscurity back in January 2005, yet they did nothing."

Basically since they were so 'PC' and stupid enough to hire him, they had to deal with the consequences.

[1bad65]

And if anyone owes an apology, it's the plagiarizing poseur himself.

He owes one to REAL Indians for stealing their heritage, a job, and their artwork from them for his own personal aggrandizement.

[BoulderDawg]

Doesn't scare me at all. I've been pulled off people before.

I have bail money. It's all good.

I'll just think of all the Neo Baby Killers and I'll still smile.

Isn't this what you meant to say!:D

[BoulderDawg]

A very touching moment at the David Lane press conference after the trial yesterday

A Native American elder interrupted Mr. Lane during this press questioning to say, in an emotional voice, “Your words have honored the dead of Fort Clark. You have wrapped a blanket around the Constitution and it doesn’t have smallpox in it.”

beautiful

[1bad65]

How blind and stupid are you? I'm being 100% serious here.

Even the fraud himself has backed off of that lie. Even 'South Park' made fun of it!

The guy won a court case that asked if he was fired for his 9/11 essay (which amazingly wasn't plagiarized). They agreed. But that does not mean he didn't lie, cheat, and steal to get the job in the first place. Notice they didn't give him 2 years in back pay, they gave his sorry ass $1.

Let me ask you, have you seen the artwork in question? It's a blatant copy. It honestly looks like he did it at Kinko's.

Are you really proud that a blatant liar has you this snowed? I myself would be embarrassed beyond belief, yet you seem to revel in it.

[1bad65]

If it was about the 1st Amendment, I'd be a huge supporter of the guy. If the Government had imprisoned him, or fined him, I would have been one of the first to rally around him (despite the fact he is a disgusting piece of garbage). I would have donated to him for his legal bills. I would have sent money to his lawyers.

But this was not about the 1st Amendment. It was about a guy who blatanly lied to get a job, got caught, and got rightfully fired. It has NOTHING to do with the 1st Amendment. He and his lawyers just managed to fool very stupid people (like you) into believing it does.

[Drake]

Oh, and NOW they want to implement hiring standards, speaking like they never had them before. I am willing to bet WC is just the tip of the iceberg.

They say there's a sucker born every minute. It's an old saying, and I think it's time to change the rate these suckers are born.

[Baqualin]

One thing I know for sure: NEOLiberals have the morals and class not to spit into anyone's face...no matter who that person might be.

Tell that to all the Vietnam vets you guys spit on when they came home

[Baqualin]

I'll just think of all the Neo Baby Killers and I'll still smile.
Isn't this what you meant to say!


My point is made......a$$wipe:mad:[/B]

[BoulderDawg]

Oh, and NOW they want to implement hiring standards, speaking like they never had them before. I am willing to bet WC is just the tip of the iceberg.

You're right dude. As you describe it, Ward is just the "Tip of the iceberg". To be honest if you scrutinize each and every professor like you did Ward you'll find the probably at least 75% have questionable things in their research papers. I would also dare say that if you've written as much as Ward I would be willing to bet that number goes to 90+%.

Professor Means pointed to one professor at CU that made Ward's transgressions look like jay walking...yet he's still there.

In fact I've been reading comments from the members of the jury....They found CUs argument laughable. The question of who would win was never in doubt.

No matter though, I guess we should really crack down on them all and get rid of everybody.:D

[BoulderDawg]

In all honesty it does not surprise me that a major complaint against Ward was the Fort Clark story. CU figured a story about the US military killing Indians using Biowarfare would just fan the flames against him more..........CU thought wrong. The story is true.

In any case, I've just been laughing at all the sour grapes from the Neos that I've been reading.

I love their latest argument: "Professor Churchill cannot be reinstated because it would create a dangerous situation for both him and the school.":D

That's the same argument you gave in Little Rock in 1957. It's the same argument given at the University of Alabama in the 60s......

As far as violence at the school....All the threats have come from Neos. And one thing I've learned is that they're a lot better at making threats than they are at taking action. No matter though...If Ward ever needs security all he has to do is ask. There are thousands of people watching his back.

[BoulderDawg]

One thing I know for sure: NEOLiberals have the morals and class not to spit into anyone's face...no matter who that person might be.

Tell that to all the Vietnam vets you guys spit on when they came home

I didn't spit on anybody. Neither did any of my friends. Liberals simply have more class than that.

The stories of Vietnam vets being spat on are just that....stories...no truth to any of them. My favorite ones are throwing S on the coffins of dead vets.:D Never happened......just Neo propaganda.

However I can tell you a few stories from the civil rights era that would curl your hair if you're interested.

[Baqualin]

I didn't spit on anybody. Neither did any of my friends. Liberals simply have more class than that.

The stories of Vietnam vets being spat on are just that....stories...no truth to any of them. My favorite ones are throwing S on the coffins of dead vets.:D Never happened......just Neo propaganda.

However I can tell you a few stories from the civil rights era that would curl your hair if you're interested.

I was there!!!

[1bad65]

In all honesty it does not surprise me that a major complaint against Ward was the Fort Clark story. CU figured a story about the US military killing Indians using Biowarfare would just fan the flames against him more..........CU thought wrong. The story is true.

The stories of Vietnam vets being spat on are just that....stories...no truth to any of them.

So you know the Vietnam vets are all lying, but a known liar and fraud is being truthful? :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Let's see the poseur plagiarize one of them too!

PirateBallerina is in possession of evidence that shows Ward Churchill may have appropriated the military experience of someone else and claimed it as his own. During a 1993 interview, Churchill gave supposed recollections of his actions and thoughts from his time in Vietnam that our evidence shows were in fact stolen from a quote by an anonymous soldier in an essay published a year earlier by a different author.

Here is the relevant portion of the original interview with Ward Churchill conducted by Jodi Rave in 1993:

"Rave: What is then, one of the most difficult moments or situation?

The Fraud: Waking up in the morning in what was called Indian Country in 1968 and finding out I was a member of the 7th Calvary (sic). Not literally, there was a 7th Calvary (sic).

Rave: Waking up?

The Fraud: In the morning in what they called Indian Country, this is what hostile territory is called in Viet Nam, yaa know, I figured I was a member of the Calvary (sic) and not the Indians.

Rave: Ooh. Ok.

The Fraud: That experience kind of changed my life.

Rave: In which way?

The Fraud: I decided to get on the right side, which isn't with the Calvary (sic), it wasn't with the United States. And just about everything I've done since then was drawn from that experience and all kinds of things have added on. But everything has been very, I can make sense of it, [i]t's been very consistent in that way.

Then, I'm always engaged, I never stop, I'm never unplugged."

This tale seems highly unlikely, since military records indicate Churchill was trained as a truck driver and projectionist in the Army in 1966-68, and there is no evidence that during his 11-month stay in Vietnam he saw battle at all.

But if Churchill did not have these experiences himself, where did he get the story he recounts? PirateBallerina has learned that Churchill lifted the tale of bravery and awakening in Vietnam from an anonymous account by a Native American veteran that was published a year earlier, in 1992. The following quote appears in M. Annette Jaimes' 1992 book The State of Native America, in a chapter contributed by University of Arizona Professor Tom Holm. During the 1970's and 80s, Holm collected Vietnam recollections from Native American veterans, and published various papers and books chapters based on these recollections. Here is the exact passage from Holm's chapter (pp. 362):

As the Creek-Cherokee veteran quoted earlier put it: "I went into the army and to Vietnam because I’d seen the same John Wayne movies as everybody else and thought I was doing an honorable thing, that war was the ‘Indian Way’. And, of course, the government was saying at the time that we had this treaty-the SEATO treaty-to uphold. So I went... But when I got to Vietnam, I found that my job was to run missions into what everybody called "Indian country." That’s what they called enemy territory... I woke up one morning fairly early in my tour and realized that instead of being a warrior like Crazy Horse, I was a scout used by the army to track him down. I was on the wrong side of everything I wanted to believe I was about... And then I found out the SEATO treaty never even required the United States to do what it was doing in Southeast Asia. It was all a total lie. Besides, by then I’d figured out that even if it did, it didn’t matter. Why was I fighting to uphold a U.S. treaty commitment half-way around the world when the United States was violating its treaty commitments to my own people and about 3001. other Indian nations?... I was fighting the wrong people, pure and simple, and I’ve never gotten over it."

We know for sure that Ward Churchill saw this quote, for three reasons:
One, Ward Churchill was himself a contributor to the same book, and he surely obtained a copy at the time of its publication;
Two, The book's editor, Annette Jaimes was Churchill's wife at the time, and they worked on numerous projects together before, during and after their marriage; and
Three, Tom Holm has confirmed in private correspondence with PB that Churchill was in fact instrumental in getting Holm's chapter into the book, and had read it even before publication.

So there is little doubt that, at least a year before the Rave interview (and given publishing lead-times, probably closer to two years), Churchill had seen and was familiar with the quote given by the anonymous veteran.

http://www.pirateballerina.com/files/churchill_vietnam_fraud.htm#2.

[BoulderDawg]

So you know the Vietnam vets are all lying, but a known liar and fraud is being truthful? :rolleyes:

Who? Who is lying? So far all I've heard is all of these un-named vets are being spit on.

Here's a good little story:

Amanda Spake of U.S. News quotes (May 1) Terry Baker of the Vietnam Veterans Association about the disgraceful behavior:

"When the WWII guys came back," Baker adds, "they were able to talk about the war. With Vietnam, vets had to change their clothes in the bus station because people would spit on them."

Although Nexis overflows with references to protesters gobbing on Vietnam vets, and Bob Greene's 1989 book Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned From Vietnam counts 63 examples of protester spitting, Jerry Lembcke argues that the story is bunk in his 1998 book The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam (click here to buy it). Lembcke, a professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam vet, investigated hundreds of news accounts of antiwar activists spitting on vets. But every time he pushed for more evidence or corroboration from a witness, the story collapsed--the actual person who was spat on turned out to be a friend of a friend. Or somebody's uncle. He writes that he never met anybody who convinced him that any such clash took place.

While Lembcke doesn't prove that nobody ever expectorated on a serviceman--you can't prove a negative, after all--he reduces the claim to an urban myth. In most urban myths, the details morph slightly from telling to telling, but at least one element survives unchanged. In the tale of the spitting protester, the signature element is the location: The protester almost always ambushes the serviceman at the airport--not in a park, or at a bar, or on Main Street. Also, it's not uncommon for the insulted serviceman to have flown directly in from Vietnam. In the most dramatic telling of the spitting story, First Blood (1982), the first installment of the series about a vengeful Vietnam vet, the airport is the scene of the outrage. John Rambo, played by Sylvester Stallone, gives a speech about getting spat upon. Rambo says:

It wasn't my war. You asked me, I didn't ask you. And I did what I had to do to win. But somebody wouldn't let us win. Then I come back to the world and I see all those maggots at the airport. Protesting me. Spitting. Calling me baby killer. ... Who are they to protest me? Huh?

Of course, the myth of the spitting protester predates the Rambo movies, but how many vets--many of whom didn't get the respect they thought they deserved after serving their country--retrofitted this memory after seeing the movie? Soldiers returning from lost wars have long healed their psychic wounds by accusing their governments and their countrymen of betrayal, Lembcke writes. Also, the spitting story resonates with biblical martyrdom. As the soldiers put the crown of thorns on Jesus and led him to his crucifixtion, they beat him with a staff and spat on him.

Lembcke uncovered a whole lot of spitting from the war years, but the published accounts always put the antiwar protester on the receiving side of a blast from a pro-Vietnam counterprotester. Surely, he contends, the news pages would have given equal treatment to a story about serviceman getting the treatment. Then why no stories in the newspaper morgues, he asks?

Lastly, there are the parts of the spitting story up that don't add up. Why does it always end with the protester spitting and the serviceman walking off in shame? Most servicemen would have given the spitters a mouthful of bloody Chiclets instead of turning the other cheek like Christ. At the very least, wouldn't the altercations have resulted in assault and battery charges and produced a paper trail retrievable across the decades?

The myth persists because: 1) Those who didn't go to Vietnam--that being most of us--don't dare contradict the "experience" of those who did; 2) the story helps maintain the perfect sense of shame many of us feel about the way we ignored our Vietvets; 3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; and 4) because any fool with 33 cents and the gumption to repeat the myth in his letter to the editor can keep it in circulation. Most recent mentions of the spitting protester in Nexis are of this variety.

As press crimes go, the myth of the spitting protester ain't even a misdemeanor. Reporters can't be expected to fact-check every quotation. But it does teach us a journalistic lesson: Never lend somebody a sympathetic ear just because he's sympathetic.

As I said it's total BS

[1bad65]

Ask to see his DD 214.

I'll guarantee he was never awarded a CIB.

There is reason he has refused to release it to the public.....

[1bad65]

I notice you didn't address my post where he plagiarized the REAL Vietnam vet's story.

[BoulderDawg]

I notice you didn't address my post where he plagiarized the REAL Vietnam vet's story.

Could it be because I could care less?:D

If you think it's so important them go to some street corner and scream it to the top of your lungs!:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

Ask to see his DD 214.

I'll guarantee he was never awarded a CIB.

There is reason he has refused to release it to the public.....

I assume all of this crap is some sort of military stuff......I don't blame Ward. I imagine he is extremely ashamed of fighting for a country that slaughtered millions of his people.

[GLW]

"One thing I know for sure: NEOLiberals have the morals and class not to spit into anyone's face...no matter who that person might be.

Tell that to all the Vietnam vets you guys spit on when they came home"

I definitely take offense at that characterization.

I WAS very much against the Vietnam war. Much of the foundation of my reasons for opposing it have been proven true over the past several years with documents and statements by officials...most recently the release of statements about how, for political gain, Nixon worked at cross purposes with the Johnson administration to slow down peace talks.

But, I nor none of my friends or anyone I ever knew spit on anyone,,,much less a returning soldier.

However, your characterization does not address the danger that people like myself were in for the simple act of wearing a peace symbol or having long hair.

Is it possible that some people went overboard in their protests - sure. But blame THOSE INDIVIDUALS not all liberals or progressives. I have never heard a LIBERAL defend spitting on a soldier...but I have heard plenty of people defend kicking a$$ on a "hippie f@g" for their political beliefs and opposition to the war.

Of course, you say nothing about the 4 dead students at Kent State...exactly what did THEY do.

[BoulderDawg]

Of course, you say nothing about the 4 dead students at Kent State...exactly what did THEY do.

Have you ever seen the video of that? They just opened up on the students for really no reason at all.....They were shot down in cold blood and no one was held responsible.

Then you had the slaughter in Chicago. No one was held responsible for that......

Then you had the slaughter in Viet Nam........hundreds of thousands dead and, of course, it's no ones fault.......

Nixon re-elected in 1972.

[Baqualin]

"One thing I know for sure: NEOLiberals have the morals and class not to spit into anyone's face...no matter who that person might be.

Tell that to all the Vietnam vets you guys spit on when they came home"

I definitely take offense at that characterization.

I WAS very much against the Vietnam war. Much of the foundation of my reasons for opposing it have been proven true over the past several years with documents and statements by officials...most recently the release of statements about how, for political gain, Nixon worked at cross purposes with the Johnson administration to slow down peace talks.

But, I nor none of my friends or anyone I ever knew spit on anyone,,,much less a returning soldier.

However, your characterization does not address the danger that people like myself were in for the simple act of wearing a peace symbol or having long hair.

Is it possible that some people went overboard in their protests - sure. But blame THOSE INDIVIDUALS not all liberals or progressives. I have never heard a LIBERAL defend spitting on a soldier...but I have heard plenty of people defend kicking a$$ on a "hippie f@g" for their political beliefs and opposition to the war.

Of course, you say nothing about the 4 dead students at Kent State...exactly what did THEY do.

I was there.....my friends were there......I had long hair.....I wore peace signs......they had long hair after they came home just like I did.....they wore peace signs......my girlfriend was at Kent state....I remember when the first Black kids started going to white schools...I was there for the race riots with family in Detroit and lived shortly in a small town at the tip of S. Ill. that was still burning long after the people in Detroit had moved on and yes it all went on....on both sides and still is...oh and my father was was a Mason.....so yeah, I've seen and heard a lot. I wasn't calling you a Neo Liberal or accusing you of being a spitter...you don't seem to be an ass, just a liberal period...no problem with that and didn't mean to insult you. I was referring to BD who is an ass & a NEO Liberal......I'm not a Republican.....I was raised a Democrat, but I'm not a Liberal ........or a moderate.....I listen to all (except the neo's on both sides)....cater to none.... Independant ....I just get tired of the POT KETTLE sh!t sometimes and say my peace....I know everything is Yin Yang, but FUK:rolleyes:. I will leave the debates to you experts on here and I will go back to reading while trying to make sense of the chaos...Chow
BQ

[uki]

for all those interested in blowing your own heads off... watch this video...

part 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2228340498938753446

part 2 http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=The+Hyperdimensional+Election+of+Bar ack+Obama+and+2012+part+2&emb=0#

[1bad65]

Could it be because I could care less?:D

If you think it's so important them go to some street corner and scream it to the top of your lungs!:eek:

That's your 'go-to' argument when you can't refute what was said. ;)

[1bad65]

I assume all of this crap is some sort of military stuff......I don't blame Ward. I imagine he is extremely ashamed of fighting for a country that slaughtered millions of his people.

Then why does he talk about going to jump school and his LRRP missions? ;)

Ask the poseur what a CIB and a DD 214 are. :D

[1bad65]

FYI, more American soldiers were killed in Vietnam during Johnson's term than were on any other President's watch. It was Johnson who massively escalated the Vietnam War.

[1bad65]

Here is the poseur calling for 'Soldier of Fortune' Magazine staff to release their DD 214s. He also bets then they did not recieve a CIB.

Kinda ridiculous he calls for others to do something he refuses to do.

http://www.pirateballerina.com/blog/entry.php?id=87

Of course his punk will find some sort of way to defend him. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Does BD actually train in a martial art?

[BoulderDawg]

Does BD actually train in a martial art?

Naw man...I'm just a big fan of Kung Fu Panda!:D

It's been so much fun watching what you are going to say next! My favorite is when you insult me then make a big deal that you have me on ignore. It the internet version of plugging your fingers in your ears and yelling "I can't hear you" over and over.:p

[BoulderDawg]

Then why does he talk about going to jump school and his LRRP missions? ;)

Ask the poseur what a CIB and a DD 214 are. :D

Man I haven't a clue nor do I care. maybe the LRRP is some sort of secret mission they needed a liberal for!:D

The other stuff: CIB, DD........:confused: What's DD? Is that a bra size? I think Ward would probably be closer to an A cup!:eek:

[Drake]

Here is the poseur calling for 'Soldier of Fortune' Magazine staff to release their DD 214s. He also bets then they did not recieve a CIB.

Kinda ridiculous he calls for others to do something he refuses to do.

http://www.pirateballerina.com/blog/entry.php?id=87

Of course his punk will find some sort of way to defend him. :rolleyes:

I wonder if I can push for criminal charges against the guy if he tries claiming awards he didn't earn. It's illegal now.

Again, this has nothing to do with liberals. I think they, and conservatives, are a vital part of the political process ( along with those independent nutjobs :D ). But this guy is a criminal and racist.

[BoulderDawg]

Looks like it's been a bad week for Cops in America. Here's a article that I enjoyed:

I saw this topic on a local DC tv station's website, and it kind of made me think -- does the deliberate paranoia the rightwing creates for political purposes lead to real violence? In the Pittsburgh shooting where three police were killed, apparently the killer thought that Obama wanted to take his gun. Now where would he get an idea like that?

http://cfc.wjla.com/forums/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=47&Topic=58174


3/21: Michele Bachmann says in a radio broadcast that she wants people "armed and dangerous"

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/23/bachmann-armed-and-dangerous/

Gunman Kills 4 in Oakland, Calif.

http://californiabeat.wordpress.com/2009/03/21/lone-gunman-kills-3-oakland-policemen-leaves-one-in-grave-condition-in-brazen-daylight-shooting-spree/

3/29: 8 shot and killed at a nursing home

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/29/nursing.home.shooting/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

4/3: 14 Shot and Killed in Binghamton, NY

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/04/binghamton.shooting/index.html?iref=topnews

4/4: 5 Shot Dead in Pittsburgh, PA

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30043893/

Where would he get an idea like that???? Beats the hell out of me. Maybe it had something to do with talk of doomsday coming.

However the idea of taking away guns sounds better to me with each passing day.

Let's me just say this to you Neo nut jobs with guns out there:

Please don't shoot me. I don't own a gun and I'm not interested in your wife, your job, your religion or anything else about your world. If you feel you have to shoot someone follow the lead of these guys from the last several months and go after cops. They have guns and love to mix it up.

[1bad65]

Drake,

What are your thoughts on the North Korean missile launch?

[Drake]

Drake,

What are your thoughts on the North Korean missile launch?

It failed.

[1bad65]

Well yeah. ;)

I was wondering more how you felt about the fact they did it despite the US and the UN telling them not to.

[Drake]

Well yeah. ;)

I was wondering more how you felt about the fact they did it despite the US and the UN telling them not to.

Like they've never done THAT before!

[BoulderDawg]

History Channel ran a good show last night. They paralleled the times in the 20s leading up to the great depression to the last decade of so leading up to our current crisis.

Much of the same things were going on: GOP stranglehold on the economy, massive deregulation, tax cuts for the rich and a failure to realize there was a problem.

Hmmmm........Maybe Bush should have read a history book!:D

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Wait, but isn't it all Jimmy Carter's fault? It was him and Clinton who created this mess. Am I right on that one? That's what they told me on FOX News. They also told me that, soon enough, we'll all be living under a totalitarian Communist regime:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

Wait, but isn't it all Jimmy Carter's fault? It was him and Clinton who created this mess. Am I right on that one? That's what they told me on FOX News. They also told me that, soon enough, we'll all be living under a totalitarian Communist regime:eek:

Yep! Every single negative thing that has happened in the last 30 years has been the fault of Carter and Clinton. Of course anything good is because of the policies of Reagan and the two Bush's.:D

Notice how recently they've been telling us that Obama is going to take away all the guns and doomsday is coming soon. The Neos should be glad that their ilk is taking that seriously and doing something about it.

[BoulderDawg]

Franken-Coleman

Read an interesting article today about that and Sen Cornyn from Texas.

To start with why a Texas senator is dictating what should happen in Minnesota in beyond me. Anyway he is now saying that Franken should not be seated unless it can be proven that every single vote cast was legal and accurate......

He should of just said Franken should not be seated until it is proven just exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!:D

[1bad65]

Notice how recently they've been telling us that Obama is going to take away all the guns and doomsday is coming soon. The Neos should be glad that their ilk is taking that seriously and doing something about it.

Can you prove to us that the guy who didn't even speak English in NY and the guy running from rape of a child charges in Oakland were influenced by 'Neos' to go on their shooting sprees? :rolleyes:

Were you born this way, or did it take you years of practice to become this stupid?

[BoulderDawg]

Can you prove to us that the guy who didn't even speak English in NY and the guy running from rape of a child charges in Oakland were influenced by 'Neos' to go on their shooting sprees? :rolleyes:

I can't crawl into somebody's head and tell you what they are thinking.

That said, it is strange that the Neos are preaching all of this end of world stuff, that Obama is threatening your family, that the government going to take food and weapons away from your family, that doomsday is coming and so on and so on and the fact that it seems like as soon they they started talking about this "You're gonna die" stuff gun violence really took off.

They've duped people into believing drastic action is the only way to solve any problem. Why not? According to the Neos we'll all either be dead or starving on the streets in six months.

[1bad65]

I can't crawl into somebody's head and tell you what they are thinking.

They've duped people into believing drastic action is the only way to solve any problem.

Which one is it? :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Which one is it? :rolleyes:

Those two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact the guy in Pittsburgh admitted he was worried about Obama taking away guns. So that makes the second half of that statement as true as the first.

And, in my opinion, you can rest assured that guy in Pitt is not the only one!

[David Jamieson]

So long as you blame someone else for the folly in your life, is as long as the time that you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions.

[BoulderDawg]

Yes -We hear from our friends north of the border.

You know for a while I thought thngs were bad here in the United States then I started to read Kevin Annett. Rev Annett was a Canadian minister in the United Church until he dared speak out about the treatment of Indians in Canada especially in the Residential schools. For this he was fired from his job and kicked out of the church....you know like someone else we all know and love.

Here's an article from Annett from just two months ago:

Locked Out and Locked in at St. James Anglican Church:
Vancouver, February 22, 2009
by Kevin D. Annett

Only Frank and Bingo had passed through the heavy front door when it was pulled shut abruptly by a fearful church attendant.

Turning a key quickly in the lock, the man triumphantly faced the twenty of us and hissed,

"You're not welcome here, any of you!"

The prematurely smug little guy didn't realize that two of us were already inside the ornate Anglican sanctuary, bearing our banner: "All the Children Need a Proper Burial." And two Indians, to boot.

While the door guy fussed with his cell phone and called the police, Frank and Bingo were already standing in front of the altar, facing the bewildered congregation with our message. Like two fatal germs in a dying body, they spoke to the church goers and asked them to return the remains of kids who had died in their residential schools: in Alert Bay, in Lytton, in Sault Ste. Marie.

Outside, the cops still hadn't arrived, even though the main police station was only a block away. The door guy looked panicked.

"What's happened to our friends?" demanded Carol, a survivor of a survivor, to the worried flunky.

"You've locked them in there! When are you going to let them out?"

Door Man ignored her in his haste to explain to two arriving and exasperated parishioners why he had had to lock the church doors.

"It's them again ..." I heard him exclaim, beseeching the white couple, unsuccessfully, not to leave.

Vancouver's Slimiest finally arrived, in three squad cars. The cops consulted Door Man and then strode over to me, the lone white guy in our protest.

"Mr. Annett?" a sergeant barked. "You'll have to wind this down."

I held out my hand to him, asking his name.

"Ray" he replied.

"Hi Ray. I'm not in charge here, actually."

My words seemed to confuse him.

"But you can take it up with any of these folks if you like" I concluded.

I gestured to the crowd of entirely native people gathered on the church steps, mostly women and kids, and three drumming elders.

"You're all trespassing here ..." Ray began, only to be inundated by a chorus of voices.

"This is our land! They're trespassing! You're trespassing!" yelled Carol, holding up her infant grandson.

"This is his land!"

Rob, a Nishga survivor, began to lecture the other cops about the history of murder in the Indian residential schools, demanding to know why they weren't arresting those responsible.

The police looked vaguely embarrassed. One of them appeared downright guilty. After a minute more of Rob's harangue, the guilty-looking cop sputtered,

"Okay, look, if you can get a court order evicting this church from here, naturally we'd have to enforce it!".

The church building seemed to shudder and groan.

Door Man suddenly appeared and motioned frantically to the cops, as Frank and Bingo and an unknown native woman emerged from around the corner, holding aloft the banner and grinning from ear to ear.

We all cheered and applauded them.

Bingo, clearly loving the moment, regaled us with a blow by blow account, as Door Man and the cops scowled at us.

"The priest, ****, he didn't know what to do! Every time they all said 'Lord, hear our prayer', I'd yell at them 'No, hear my prayer!' ".

"I handed out all the leaflets" the native woman told us.

"They all took them. A guy even shook my hand, said to keep it up!"

Sergeant Ray felt he had to act like a cop, or something. He approached me again.

"You have to move off these steps. You can protest down on the sidewalk."

I just smiled at Ray, which didn't seem to bother him that much, but it sent Door Man into a fit.

"You people held us hostage for forty minutes the last time you did this!" he exclaimed.

"We lost fifty parishioners because of you!".

I smiled at him and replied,

"All right!".

The cops were beginning to get that edgy, trigger-happy look, now that they were feeling so impotent. Sensing some impending head-busting, I consulted the elders, then went over to Sergeant Ray and said,

"Will you guys leave if we move to the sidewalk?"

Ray said yes. So we moved.

After the cops were gone, we walked back up the church steps and resumed our drumming and singing.

I turned just then to Bingo and Frank, and marveled at their great courage, of being locked in a church with their abusers, and of carrying on anyway, tiny in number but unbeatable.

Radiant, I reached over and hugged Bingo, saying,

"I love you guys".

"I love you too, man" Bingo said quietly.

The rain started spitting again and the elk soup and bannock that awaited us was just too tempting. So, letting out a final, joyous cheer and a prayer for the missing children, we left, for the moment.

The churchgoers were still locked inside.

.................................................. ...........................................

Kevin Annett
260 Kennedy St.
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada V9R 2H8
250-753-3345 or 1-888-265-1007

Kevin Annett is a community minister who lives and works in the downtown eastside of Vancouver. He is the author of two books and producer of an award-winning documentary film on genocide in Canada.

Gald to see that Ward is not the only one searching for the truth!

BTW I really liked the part "Vancouver's Slimiest finally arrived, in three squad cars"! It appears cops in Canada are about the same as they are here in the US.

[1bad65]

Gald to see that Ward is not the only one making up stories and calling it the truth!

Do you idolize that fraud so much that you're gonna start dressing like Billy Jack now? :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Two Dead After Man Opens Fire in German Courthouse

"LANDSHUT, Germany — A man opened fire in a courthouse in Bavaria Tuesday, killing a woman and seriously injuring two other people, German officials said. The gunman then apparently killed himself."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,512960,00.html

Are you gonna blame this on the 'Neos' too? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you idolize that fraud so much that you're gonna start dressing like Billy Jack now? :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6ZMeRshPR0

:D

[Baqualin]

So long as you blame someone else for the folly in your life, is as long as the time that you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions.

NICE:cool:
BQ

[1bad65]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6ZMeRshPR0

It's a classic movie for sure.

The only thing is that Billy Jack actually fought men, while the plagiarizing poseur just makes threatening phone calls to women and to men recovering from heart surgery. ;)

[1bad65]

Back to Obama, it was a sad sight seeing the President bow down to the king of Saudi Arabia.

[BoulderDawg]

Gald to see that Ward is not the only one making up stories and calling it the truth!

So they're all lying? I guess next you're going to tell me the Canadian holocaust never happened.

I would suggest reading these books:

Kill the Indian, Save the Man: The Genocidal Impact of American Indian Residential Schools by Ward Churchill

A Little Matter of Genocide by Ward Churchill

Hidden from History: The Canadian Holocaust by Kevin Annett

Or viewing this documentary:

Unrepentant by Kevin Annett

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6637396204037343133

*****************

Tell me thiis bad: If you could go back in a time machine and you find in 1837. You're standing on the side of the road when a group of indians walk by. One of them says, "You look cold my relative. Take one of these blankets that we just got from our white brothers at Fort Clark." .........Would you take the blanket?

[BoulderDawg]

Two Dead After Man Opens Fire in German Courthouse

"LANDSHUT, Germany — A man opened fire in a courthouse in Bavaria Tuesday, killing a woman and seriously injuring two other people, German officials said. The gunman then apparently killed himself."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,512960,00.html

Are you gonna blame this on the 'Neos' too? :rolleyes:

Should I compare stats for German and American handgun violence? Germany is a far more liberal country than the United States. It reflects in their attitude towards gun violence.

[Shaolinlueb]

Back to Obama, it was a sad sight seeing the President bow down to the king of Saudi Arabia.

its called respect of them and their culture/beliefs when visiting them. you do a martial arts bow to classmates as a greeting right? whats the big deal?

edit*
i am sure if it was in america it would be different. you don't go into someones house and take a huge sh*t on their floor.

[BoulderDawg]

its called respect of them and their culture/beliefs when visiting them. you do a martial arts bow to classmates as a greeting right? whats the big deal?

I was kinda wondering the same thing. We are suppose to be Martial Artists and a large part of that culture is showing respect by bowing.

I guess respect is not a big thing in the Neo world........I take that back. Getting respect is but giving it is not.

[1bad65]

Tell me thiis bad: If you could go back in a time machine and you find in 1837. You're standing on the side of the road when a group of indians walk by. One of them says, "You look cold my relative. Take one of these blankets that we just got from our white brothers at Fort Clark." .........Would you take the blanket?

Dude, what part of 'He made that story up' do you not grasp? He himself is repeatedly changing the story. The sources he used are either HIMSELF, or sources that actually refute what he says happened.

[1bad65]

its called respect of them and their culture/beliefs when visiting them. you do a martial arts bow to classmates as a greeting right? whats the big deal?

Actually their culture says only subjects should bow to the king. Notice NO ONE else did.

Actually I do not bow to anyone. I had instructor who was a bit formal and instituted it. I politely discussed it with him and told him that is against my religious beliefs. I still attended his classes and he did not require me to bow.

[Reality_Check]

Back to Obama, it was a sad sight seeing the President bow down to the king of Saudi Arabia.

As did George W. Bush...

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33289_Bush_Bowed_Too

As did John Adams to King George III...

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/eyewitness/html.php?section=19

"I went with his Lordership thro’ the Levee Room into the King’s Closet, the Door was shut and I was left with his Majesty and the Secretary of State alone. I made the three Reverences, one at the Door, another about half way and the third before the Presence, according to the usage established at this and all the Northern Courts of Europe, and then addressed myself to his Majesty in the following words–"

George Bush also held hands with Saudi Prince Abdullah...

Not to mention the kiss...

[BoulderDawg]

Actually I do not bow to anyone. I had instructor who was a bit formal and instituted it. I politely discussed it with him and told him that is against my religious beliefs.

I would like to know what religion does not allow showing respect towards another human being. That's all Obama's bow was and that's all involved in a MA bow. It's no more of a gesture than a nod of the head or a handshake would be.

So what religion do you practice that requires you to be rude?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude...I may not like Bush (understatement) but:

As did George W. Bush...

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti...Bush_Bowed_Too


Looks like he is having something put over his head unto his neck...

As for that photoshopped kiss, that was a horrible job !

[BoulderDawg]

Dude, what part of 'He made that story up' do you not grasp? He himself is repeatedly changing the story. The sources he used are either HIMSELF, or sources that actually refute what he says happened.

Most of the sources are word of mouth passed down through the generations. I guess the Small Pox just happened to float through the air and infect those indians right after they received those blankets.:rolleyes:

BTW you never answered my question: Would you accept one of those blankets?

Also, to deny the Canadian Holocaust........Do you even have a clue?

[Drake]

Dude...I may not like Bush (understatement) but:



Looks like he is having something put over his head unto his neck...

As for that photoshopped kiss, that was a horrible job !

Photoshop rule #1: Remove borders

[1bad65]

I would like to know what religion does not allow showing respect towards another human being. That's all Obama's bow was and that's all involved in a MA bow. It's no more of a gesture than a nod of the head or a handshake would be.

So what religion do you practice that requires you to be rude?

It's not rude. Rude is not respecting someone who does not wish to bow to you. You need to watch Role Models. ;)

I showed my coach and my training partners plenty of respect and was never rude to anyone.

I'm Christian, so you know.

[1bad65]

Dude...I may not like Bush (understatement) but:

Looks like he is having something put over his head unto his neck...

Exactly. Even the caption says so. Some people just can't read and comprehend anything not written by a lying plagiarist.

[Baqualin]

So they're all lying? I guess next you're going to tell me the Canadian holocaust never happened.

I would suggest reading these books:

Kill the Indian, Save the Man: The Genocidal Impact of American Indian Residential Schools by Ward Churchill

A Little Matter of Genocide by Ward Churchill

Hidden from History: The Canadian Holocaust by Kevin Annett

Or viewing this documentary:

Unrepentant by Kevin Annett

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6637396204037343133

*****************

Tell me thiis bad: If you could go back in a time machine and you find in 1837. You're standing on the side of the road when a group of indians walk by. One of them says, "You look cold my relative. Take one of these blankets that we just got from our white brothers at Fort Clark." .........Would you take the blanket?

I don't know about bad....I would sit down and smoke a peace pipe with them:D

[1bad65]

Most of the sources are word of mouth passed down through the generations. I guess the Small Pox just happened to float through the air and infect those indians right after they received those blankets.:rolleyes:

He cited sources. Don't try and cop out with this 'word of mouth' excuse. Keep in mind, he has told and written DIFFERENT accounts of this. They can't ALL be true.

[1bad65]

I don't know about bad....I would sit down and smoke a peace pipe with them:D

I likely would too. Indian religions are of interest to me. One of my fond memories as a kid was vacationing at the Alabama-Coushatta reservation in East Texas.

Of course I don't pretend to be one, or steal their artwork to sell for profit, or take their jobs, or make up their history, or pretend to be this pseudo Billy Jack/Frank Dux character.

[BoulderDawg]

Guess I shouldn't not hold my breath until Bad answers the questions about the blankets.

I know what I would have said, "Brother those blankets are poison. the white man is trying to kill you by spreading disease with the blankets. Burn them now."

[BoulderDawg]

It's not rude. Rude is not respecting someone who does not wish to bow to you. You need to watch Role Models. ;)

I showed my coach and my training partners plenty of respect and was never rude to anyone.

I'm Christian, so you know.

I know a few people who call themselves "Christian" but I know of no Christian religions that forbide a show of respect towards other human beings.

I guess it could be though. The documentary I spoke of earlier leads off with a quote from the christian bible:

When the lord God brings
you into the land you are
entering to possess and drive
out before you many nations, and
you have defeated them then
you must destroy them totally.
Make no treaty with them and
show them no mercy. Do not
allow any of them to live.

This is what you are to do to
them: break down their altars,
smash their sacred stones,
cut down their trees and burn
them in the fire.
For you are a people chosen by
the lord over all others on the
face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 7, 1-3, 5-6

Words of a loving God!:rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

Exactly. Even the caption says so. Some people just can't read and comprehend anything not written by a lying plagiarist.

What is it that scares you so bad about Ward Churchill? There is nothing Ward will do that will effect your little world down there in Texas.

I would suggest that if you feel that way about Professor Churchill's books then don't worry about it. I would say don't read them but his books are so intellectual you could not read them anyway!:D

[1bad65]

You're standing on the side of the road when a group of indians walk by. One of them says, "You look cold my relative. Take one of these blankets that we just got from our white brothers at Fort Clark."

I know what I would have said, "Brother those blankets are poison. the white man is trying to kill you by spreading disease with the blankets. Burn them now."

Do real Indians talk like they came straight out of a bad Hollywood movie?

[1bad65]

I know a few people who call themselves "Christian" but I know of no Christian religions that forbide a show of respect towards other human beings.

I referred to him as 'Coach', which is what he asked. I refer to certain people as 'Sir' or "Ma'am". You can show respect in many other ways than bowing to someone.

You want to bow to someone, have fun. I just don't.

[1bad65]

What is it that scares you so bad about Ward Churchill? There is nothing Ward will do that will effect your little world down there in Texas.

Well, he doesn't scare me. I'm not a woman or recovering from heart surgery. He tries to intimidate and threaten them. He is a bully, and a punk.

I would suggest that if you feel that way about Professor Churchill's books then don't worry about it. I would say don't read them but his books are so intellectual you could not read them anyway!:D

They are actually fiction. ;)

FYI, history doesn't magically change. Just liars versions of 'facts' do.

[BoulderDawg]

They are actually fiction. ;)

FYI, history doesn't magically change. Just liars versions of 'facts' do.

If that's what you believe then that's fine by me. I'm a firm believer in being able to read and enjoy what you want to.

For example, I believe you have to be crazy to read Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly or Coulter but you won't find me going nuts about what they write. I believe in freedom of speech.

[BoulderDawg]

I can't quit today unless I make one post about one of the standard bearers of the GOP Sarah Palin......:D

First let me preface by saying because she was chosen to run for VP that makes her the most qualified Republican out there!

Anyway, now she has gotten into a war of words with a 19 year old kid. "Liar, liar pants on fire"!!!!!!!!! Hmmm.......Considering Sarah mature attitute here I'm beginning to wonder if Bristol wasn't the only Palin getting nailed by this kid!:eek:

Also this week she got totally B slapped down by the Alaska senate after trying to nominate a Neo to replace a moderate democrat senator........Don't think so!

She also made a statement this week that Alaska's new senator should just give up his seat to Ted Stevens because he was cleared of charges.......Don't think so!

Finally her sister-in-law was arrested for buglary for stealing money out of this guy's house!!!!!!

Yep! Down south they they a term they use for families such as the Palins!:p

[Drake]

Do real Indians talk like they came straight out of a bad Hollywood movie?

Only when you steal their jobs and get kicked out of an honorary position in the tribe. So badly, in fact, that they cease giving honorary tribal membership over it. :D

[1bad65]

For example, I believe you have to be crazy to read Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly or Coulter but you won't find me going nuts about what they write.

Are you sure about that?

Notice how recently they've been telling us that Obama is going to take away all the guns and doomsday is coming soon. The Neos should be glad that their ilk is taking that seriously and doing something about it.

Much like your hero, the story changes to suit your drivel.

[BoulderDawg]

How long did we go without a shooting? Three days? Anyway that guy in Alabama took care of that today.

The guy was described as having "high morals and a good work ethic"...Just the type that the Neo propaganga machine is targeting with their armaggedon talk.

People, it ain't liberals who are killing their entire families along with anyone else in sight!

Just a freindly reminders to you Neos: Point your gun away from me. Shoot at someone else (like a cop) who has a gun.

By the way I have yet to hear of anyone going out to kill as many people as they can because they were afraid that Ward Churchill was going to take something away from them!

[Drake]

Are you sure about that?



Much like your hero, the story changes to suit your drivel.

I'm sure an immigrant with poor english comprehension comes home every night listening to Rush Limbaugh.

He's already been identified as having mental problems, and was convinced he was being pursued by undercover police.

Most of these shooters are upset, feel they've been wronged in some way, and it's usually quite personal. A man shot his family and then himself recently. Reason? He was fired from his job.

I'm glad at least some people here are capable of having a conversation. Even if they are Canadian. :D

[Drake]

HA. Hypocrite strikes again. The man who only days ago said "It wasn't about the money" wants $10,000,000 is he isn't reinstated. Is that the average rate for a non-PhD holding plagiarizer?

And he's been unemployed this whole time... can't figure out why Harvard and Yale aren't knocking his door down trying to hire him!

[1bad65]

I'm sure an immigrant with poor english comprehension comes home every night listening to Rush Limbaugh.

Most of these shooters are upset, feel they've been wronged in some way, and it's usually quite personal.

The guy in Oakland was fixing to have his parole revoked because his DNA matched that taken from a 12-year old rape victim.

I like how one second he can't get inside someone's head, yet the next he knows these shooter's political affiliations and who they listen to in the media.

[1bad65]

HA. Hypocrite strikes again. The man who only days ago said "It wasn't about the money" wants $10,000,000 is he isn't reinstated. Is that the average rate for a non-PhD holding plagiarizer?

And he's been unemployed this whole time... can't figure out why Harvard and Yale aren't knocking his door down trying to hire him!

It's too funny. The jury gave him $1. Now he is suddenly valuing himself in the millions.

He is freaking out about the job because he knows if he cant sue his way back to CU, he will never be a professor again. And like most con men, he has tremendous ego and loves that title. Even if he had to literally lie, cheat, and steal to get it.

[BoulderDawg]

It's too funny. The jury gave him $1. Now he is suddenly valuing himself in the millions.

He is freaking out about the job because he knows if he cant sue his way back to CU, he will never be a professor again. And like most con men, he has tremendous ego and loves that title. Even if he had to literally lie, cheat, and steal to get it.


Good for you! Ward would be the first to say you should have the freedom to express your opinion. He has fought for it all of his life.

In fact somebody has actually paid tribute to Ward and the great Canadian humanitarian Kevin Annett in a song.

http://www.londoncommons.net/node/7096

Iconoclast contributors have created a video to show support for the
work of Ward Churchill and Kevin Annett. Both men have dedicated their lives to
revealing the truth about Native history on the North American
continent.

This week Ward Churchill won a case against the University of Colorado for wrongful termination. It was apparent that charges of plagiarism against Churchill were falisfied because of/motivate by his radical essay about 9/11. Churchill did not commit plagiarism and was awarded 1$.

It's a nice song and a fitting tribute to two heroes.

[1bad65]

It's a nice song and a fitting tribute to two heroes.

I dont consider a wife beater a hero. Apparently you do.

"In 1977, Churchill and Dora-Lee Larson started living together in what divorce documents describe as a common-law marriage. That ended in 1984 when Larson filed for divorce and asked to have her address kept secret because of "past violence and threats" from Churchill. He did not respond then, nor last week, to questions about that case."

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/Ward%20Churchill%20Article.htm

No wonder he is on his 4th marriage.

Remember, let me know if he has a meet-and-greet in Austin. We can all see how the tough guy wife-beater reacts when an able-bodied man wants to see what he's made of.

[BoulderDawg]

Interesting story:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4052340

Major League Baseball is giving an award to three people, Muhammad Ali, Bill Cosby and Henry Aaron, as part of a tribute to civil rights.

It's called the Beacon Award and is awarded "to honor individuals whose lives are emblematic of the civil rights movement".

Muhammad Ali - Certainly, He's done as much or more for civil rights as any sports figure has ever done.

Henry Aaron - Not sure, I haven't heard very much about what Aaron has done for civil rights. I do know when the Braves moved from Milwaukee to Atlanta Aaron totally flipped out and refused to move his family down to Atlanta the first year he was there. He always seemed more concerned for himself

Bill Cosby - You have to be kidding, Cosby has done nothing for civil right, In fact he has been deterimental to the cause by criticizing leaders of the movement. Also, his TV show of a rich black family really showed us how it is to be black in America.:rolleyes:

[1bad65]

"It was apparent that charges of plagiarism against Churchill were falisfied because of/motivate by his radical essay about 9/11. Churchill did not commit plagiarism and was awarded 1$."

It was??? :confused:

Actually the jury was only asked to decide if he was fired for his 9/11 essay.

Even the fraud and his lawyer argued that the only reason CU looked for AND FOUND plagiarism was after the 9/11 essay.

If he never committed plaigiarism, why did the jury only give him $1? ;)

[1bad65]

Bill Cosby - You have to be kidding, Cosby has done nothing for civil right, In fact he has been deterimental to the cause by criticizing leaders of the movement. Also, his TV show of a rich black family really showed us how it is to be black in America.:rolleyes:

Yeah, telling young black men to take care of their children is "detrimental to the cause". :rolleyes: Of course those real "leaders of the movement" were too busy having children out of wedlock themselves and slandering a District Attorney.

You're such a space cadet, it's hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

You'll always be known as this self-professed genius who fell hard for a second-rate con man's lies.

[1bad65]

BD,

I have to ask: Is your first name Greg? And are you a "management consultant"?

[BoulderDawg]

BD,

I have to ask: Is your first name Greg? And are you a "management consultant"?

As Marshall Mathers would say "I am who you say I am":D

[BoulderDawg]

"It was apparent that charges of plagiarism against Churchill were falisfied because of/motivate by his radical essay about 9/11. Churchill did not commit plagiarism and was awarded 1$."

It was??? :confused:

Actually the jury was only asked to decide if he was fired for his 9/11 essay.

Even the fraud and his lawyer argued that the only reason CU looked for AND FOUND plagiarism was after the 9/11 essay.

If he never committed plaigiarism, why did the jury only give him $1? ;)

Because money was never the goal here. Ward leads a simple life and has no need for a lot of money.

It turned out I was right and it was one person stiring up trouble. There was one A-hole neo on that jury what would not budge from a $1 award. In fact that lady was being such a B that the rest of the jury asked the judge if they could replace her.

To be honest, had I'd been on that jury I probably would not have agreed to no damages. I would have hung it and let them have another trial.

However, as I've said, there is no reason why this judge should not give Ward his job back. However I do know he showed bias to the defense during the trial so nothing would surprise me coming from this guy.

Why not give the guy his job back? He's been vindicated in a court of law and he was one of the most popular Profs at the university.

[1bad65]

Because money was never the goal here. Ward leads a simple life and has no need for a lot of money.

Then why is he asking for a 7-figure payout?

Why not give the guy his job back?

Because he didn't have the requisites for the job in the first place. He took a job reserved for a real Indian, not a fake one.

Did he get a non-honorary PhD? Did he write a thesis that is not plagiarized? Was he teaching at another college in the meantime?

[1bad65]

As Marshall Mathers would say "I am who you say I am":D

It's a simple question.....

And FYI, I didn't say you were anybody. I ASKED if that was your name and profession.

[1bad65]

So now we can add wife-beater to his fabulous resume. A liar, a fraud, a poseur, an art thief, a phony veteran, a plagiarist, and a wife-beater.

You sure know how to pick guys to admire. :rolleyes:

[GLW]

You're kidding about not knowing about Bill Cosby in regards to civil rights...right?

Cosby was a trailblazer. He was one of the first African American actors to play a role on a major TV show that was NOT a servant or a StepNFetchit type. His I-Spy role was as a CIA agent with Robert Culp - his cover was that he was Culp's professional tennis coach but besides that he was as close to an equal as TV of that time would allow.

He did stand up and worked clean...and told about his experiences growing up but made it relate to everyone. His Cosby Show showed a FAMILY who happened to be African American and NOT an African American family.

His outspoken nature recently reported is not that unheard of. He is also known a Wiliiam Cosby Phd... He has a doctorate in education...and is a composer of music, a writer, and so on.

His words about the things he saw as wrong with the African American culture were to be expected from a person with a doctorate in education..and I have heard much the same thing from African American schoolteachers....

He is actually a good example of a person who IGNORED stereotypes and refused to do the easy thing to get along and make his money.

Granted, he is standing on the shoulders of a lot of people...in particular people like Sidney Potier...but Cosby is arguably as important as Potier in that era

[BoulderDawg]

He took a job reserved for a real Indian, not a fake one.


Well, in that case, I'm assuming that when he left CU hired a "Real Indian" to take his place.......Who was that?:D

Really you should stop showing your ignorance!

[1bad65]

Well, in that case, I'm assuming that when he left CU hired a "Real Indian" to take his place.......Who was that?:D

Really you should stop showing your ignorance!

Actually they dropped the program.

Much like the tribe who stopped giving out "honorary" memberships after the poseur abused that too.

And he physically abused at least one of his wives. A true class act. :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

His words about the things he saw as wrong with the African American culture were to be expected from a person with a doctorate in education..and I have heard much the same thing from African American schoolteachers....

He's good at criticizing blacks but takes no action to correct what he complains about.

Civil rights leader......No way.

I'd be interested to know how many black people other than himself worked on the set of "I Spy" and what he did to get more blacks, other than himself, into showbusiness.

[Old Noob]

You're kidding about not knowing about Bill Cosby in regards to civil rights...right?

Cosby was a trailblazer. He was one of the first African American actors to play a role on a major TV show that was NOT a servant or a StepNFetchit type. His I-Spy role was as a CIA agent with Robert Culp - his cover was that he was Culp's professional tennis coach but besides that he was as close to an equal as TV of that time would allow.

He did stand up and worked clean...and told about his experiences growing up but made it relate to everyone. His Cosby Show showed a FAMILY who happened to be African American and NOT an African American family.

His outspoken nature recently reported is not that unheard of. He is also known a Wiliiam Cosby Phd... He has a doctorate in education...and is a composer of music, a writer, and so on.

His words about the things he saw as wrong with the African American culture were to be expected from a person with a doctorate in education..and I have heard much the same thing from African American schoolteachers....

He is actually a good example of a person who IGNORED stereotypes and refused to do the easy thing to get along and make his money.

Granted, he is standing on the shoulders of a lot of people...in particular people like Sidney Potier...but Cosby is arguably as important as Potier in that era


Don't forget Fat Albert obe kaybe.

[1bad65]

GLW,

You have it all wrong. "Real" civil rights leaders knock up their employees. And slander DAs. And take jobs from those they claim to be fighting for. And get kicked out of the movement.

You need to read BD's posts more closely so you get it right next time. ;)

[1bad65]

And real civil rights leaders have "honorary" PhDs. :rolleyes: They don't actually earn legitimate ones in Education, like Mr Cosby did.

And they beat their wives.

[BoulderDawg]

Actually they dropped the program.

Much like the tribe who stopped giving out "honorary" memberships after the poseur abused that too.

And he physically abused at least one of his wives. A true class act. :rolleyes:

You know you should really not open your mouth unless you have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Professor Churchill was chair of the Ethnic Studies department at the University of Colorado. Look at this website:

http://www.colorado.edu/ethnicstudies/index.html

If that's been dropped someone should alert CU so they can take down their website. Not to mention tell the professors to stop teaching the students.

It will be so nice to once again see Ward take his place in the department as a full fledged tentured professor!

[BoulderDawg]

By the way the current chair of the ethnic studies department at CU is Professor Albert Ramirez who makes no claim to being an American Indian.

Where this "Indian Job" that you speak about at CU?

[1bad65]

Dude, he got the job as professor without a PhD because they fell for his lie about being an Indian. The University relaxed their standards in order to hire minorities. They no longer do this.

He was later promoted to a chair (a position he VOLUNTARILY gave up) and given tenure. Again without the normal time as a professor.

Don't believe me. Look it up.

Or believe a known liar. And fraud. And art thief. And poseur. And phony veteran. And wife-beater.

[1bad65]

By the way the current chair of the ethnic studies department at CU is Professor Albert Ramirez who makes no claim to being an American Indian.

Wanna bet that Professor Ramirez has a legit PhD? :D

[BoulderDawg]

Wanna bet that Professor Ramirez has a legit PhD? :D

Wanna bet that Professor Ramirez has never written two dozen books!:D

By the way you lied about the "Dropping of the program".

[GLW]

Actually, Cosby has spoken about such things. He pushed for scripts for I Spy that dealt with race and the topics of the day on discrimination but had limited success.

However, in the end, it was rather like Nichele Nichols on Start Trek. She was going to leave the show after a season or two and she tells of how she was at a reception and spoke with Martin Luther King Jr. and he told her that she was just as important as a symbol.

Cosby deliberately did NOT put race into his stand up so he would get his white audience to see the commonalities and not the differences. (That too is one of the things he has pointed out).

For anyone who cared to actually read about him, Cosby has accomplished quite a lot and is a good role model. From a poor home with a father who was not always around...dropped out of school, into the navy...got his GED on his own because he decided that his dreams required education. got his BA and then eventually his Ed.D (Education Doctorate) - and Fat Albert was part of his attempt to make learning fun and relevant to kids (African American AND not..but that show and those characters were the first non-white main characters in a kids TV show).

Not all activists or those who promote civil rights and equality do so by extreme means. Granted, Cosby is not in the league of King, Malcom X and others but he is not far behind folks like Maya Angelou

[1bad65]

Wanna bet that Professor Ramirez has never written two dozen books!:D

You mean plagiarized books. ;)

By the way you lied about the "Dropping of the program".

Moron, they dropped the minority hiring program the plagiarizing poseur used to get hired.

[1bad65]

GLW,

You still don't get it.

Now if Dr Cosby had beaten his wife, or lied about his race, or stolen artwork to sell as his own, we would know he is a real civil rights leader. But doing things like getting a legit education (rather than an "honorary" one), and going into inner cities to help minorities (instead of stealing jobs from them) only proves he is not a legit civil rights guy. ;)

[1bad65]

Wanna bet that Professor Ramirez has never written two dozen books!:D

So, by your standards, Dr. Seuss was qualified to have chaired a department at a major University.

[BoulderDawg]

Moron, they dropped the minority hiring program the plagiarizing poseur used to get hired.


For your information Ward had been an employee of CU since 1980. There was no "Hiring" other than that.

Anyway, what scares you so much about Ward Churchill? Whether or not he is a professor at the University has no bearing on your life down in Texas.......just like who Minnesota decides to be their senator should be no concern of your senator.

The fact that you people use McCarthy tactics (Bringing up something that was said in a divorce settlement 25 years ago. Bringing up the alcohol problems and death of his third wife is another) just goes to show that you are afraid of the man.

Ward is a hero to many. That will not change because of your opinion of him. In any case continue with the personal attacks if you so desire. From what I can see it's just blind hate.

[1bad65]

For your information Ward had been an employee of CU since 1980. There was no "Hiring" other than that.

Idiot. Did I say he was repeatedly hired or something? :rolleyes:

Anyway, what scares you so much about Ward Churchill? Whether or not he is a professor at the University has no bearing on your life down in Texas

I'm not scared of him. If he comes down here and has a meet-and-greet, I'll prove it. I'm not a woman or a man recovering from heart surgery.

Speaking of scared, only a coward would beat his wife.

I do think it's a sad thing that he actually 'teaches' young people. The guy is a flat out liar and fraud.

The fact that you people use McCarthy tactics (Bringing up something that was said in a divorce settlement 25 years ago. Bringing up the alcohol problems and death of his third wife is another) just goes to show that you are afraid of the man.

Nothing McCarthy about it. He lied about his ancestry. Even he backed off the claims. He lied about his military record, and he refused to release his DD 214. He stole another man's artwork and sold it as his own. He later admitted he 'borrowed' the artist's work. He beat at least one of his 4 wives. Court papers prove it. He has NEVER denied it, either in court or in interviews.

You just brought up the alcohol issues and death of another of his wives. Not me.

Ward is a hero to many. That will not change because of your opinion of him. In any case continue with the personal attacks if you so desire. From what I can see it's just blind hate.

So is Ashida Kim. So is Frank Dux. So is Grey Owl.

Just because idiots blindly follow con men does not mean the con men aren't liars.

You're the blind one. His "enemies" have his own conflicting statements, legal proceedings, phone recordings of his threats, DoD documents, etc. You're the one either too stupid to comprehend them, or too pathetic to accept the truth.

[Drake]

What's super awesome is not ONLY did he fake his military service, he actually... get this... PLAGIARIZED A NATIVE AMERICAN WAR VETERAN TALKING ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES IN VIETNAM. As far as frauds go, you have to admit, that's kind of impressive.


WC isn't just a racist... I think he has it out for native americans.

[1bad65]

What's super awesome is not ONLY did he fake his military service, he actually... get this... PLAGIARIZED A NATIVE AMERICAN WAR VETERAN TALKING ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES IN VIETNAM. As far as frauds go, you have to admit, that's kind of impressive.

Just when you think he can't possibly sink any lower.....

[BoulderDawg]

I'm not scared of him.


Sure you are.

Otherwise you would not have went to the great lenghts that you have to discredit the man.

[1bad65]

And yet another one condemns the fraud for what he is:

"Many of us Native people exercised our free speech more than a decade ago: We told the university Churchill isn't what he pretends to be.

I graduated from the University of Colorado-Boulder, where I earned a journalism degree. While a student, I signed up for an Indians in Film class because I heard an Indian guy was teaching it. I was intrigued. I like film. And I appreciate Indian professors. At the same time, I also heard from several Native staff on campus that Churchill wasn't really an Indian.

I took his class, joining mostly white students. I can still see Churchill walking into the room to teach one day wearing sunglasses and no shoes. I wondered: What kind of Indian skips putting on his moccasins? As a student, I asked Churchill if I could interview him for one of my journalism assignments.

A recent genealogical investigation by the Rocky Mountain News proved otherwise. Churchill's family tree shows he is an Indian in his own mind. Still, he plays the part. Hence, the red cloth and eagle feather that showed up in press photos and news stories during his wrongful termination trial in March.

For anyone who missed the eagle feather, the former ethnic studies professor did his best to convey some sort of connection to indigenous people. Churchill wore a bold-patterned, Native-designed jacket the day the jury announced a verdict. So, who is Churchill trying to convince with his tribal get-up?

When I saw Churchill with the eagle feather, I was reminded of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and its special agents who are doing eagle feather raids across the country, busting what seems to be mostly Native people in illegal possession of the protected birds. It should be noted that only members of federally recognized tribes are allowed to possess eagle feathers. Perhaps federal agents should expand their undercover investigation to include white university professors.

The majority of Indian people I know view Churchill as an imposter. For anyone just tuning in, don't be fooled by a man carrying an eagle feather and wearing a Pendleton jacket."

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2009/04/08/jodirave/rave54.txt

OMG! What a poseur. Teaching class barefoot!

And you idolize this fool.

[Mas Judt]

Instead of arguing with true-believers about their zeroes, er heroes, how about this:

A student of mine, a union worker, just told me dozens of private construction jobs are on hold - why?

After the 'stimulus' bill was signed the steel companies raised prices 30%, expecting lazy government purchasing agents to gobble it up. The end result? Many more people out of work than would have been without the stimulus package.

Doesn't anyone actually study history or economics anymore? I'm hoping the next cycle might give us a real choice, but I'm not hopeful at this point...

[Mas Judt]

The lesson here for the less-than-capable here - it's not that 'Steel Companies Are Evil' - it's that government intervention scr@ws things up. It got us into this mess (Not the canard that free markets did - total BS) and it will continue to make the mess worse.

Wake up America.

[Mas Judt]

Obama's new tax plan will also take money away from charities. The goal is to replace efficient, non-profit private organizations - many staffed with motivated volunteer workers with inefficient, over-paid, 'it's not my job', 'I got this job because I worked for the alderman', government clock watchers.

Again, FORCING people to be dependent on the largesse of state.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What's super awesome is not ONLY did he fake his military service, he actually... get this... PLAGIARIZED A NATIVE AMERICAN WAR VETERAN TALKING ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES IN VIETNAM. As far as frauds go, you have to admit, that's kind of impressive.


WC isn't just a racist... I think he has it out for native americans.

So that I don't have to go over all these pages...
Was this person convicted of these things?
Was there a trial?

[BoulderDawg]

And yet another one condemns the fraud for what he is:

"Many of us Native people exercised our free speech more than a decade ago: We told the university Churchill isn't what he pretends to be.

I graduated from the University of Colorado-Boulder, where I earned a journalism degree. While a student, I signed up for an Indians in Film class because I heard an Indian guy was teaching it. I was intrigued. I like film. And I appreciate Indian professors. At the same time, I also heard from several Native staff on campus that Churchill wasn't really an Indian.

I took his class, joining mostly white students. I can still see Churchill walking into the room to teach one day wearing sunglasses and no shoes. I wondered: What kind of Indian skips putting on his moccasins? As a student, I asked Churchill if I could interview him for one of my journalism assignments.

A recent genealogical investigation by the Rocky Mountain News proved otherwise. Churchill's family tree shows he is an Indian in his own mind. Still, he plays the part. Hence, the red cloth and eagle feather that showed up in press photos and news stories during his wrongful termination trial in March.

For anyone who missed the eagle feather, the former ethnic studies professor did his best to convey some sort of connection to indigenous people. Churchill wore a bold-patterned, Native-designed jacket the day the jury announced a verdict. So, who is Churchill trying to convince with his tribal get-up?

When I saw Churchill with the eagle feather, I was reminded of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and its special agents who are doing eagle feather raids across the country, busting what seems to be mostly Native people in illegal possession of the protected birds. It should be noted that only members of federally recognized tribes are allowed to possess eagle feathers. Perhaps federal agents should expand their undercover investigation to include white university professors.

The majority of Indian people I know view Churchill as an imposter. For anyone just tuning in, don't be fooled by a man carrying an eagle feather and wearing a Pendleton jacket."

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2009/04/08/jodirave/rave54.txt

OMG! What a poseur. Teaching class barefoot!

And you idolize this fool.

Your fear of the man and his ideas are just amazing.

Maybe you should be afraid. The more you and others attack the man the more his popularity and respect grows.:D

By the way I'm barefoot right now!:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

So that I don't have to go over all these pages...
Was this person convicted of these things?
Was there a trial?


The only legal trouble that Professor Churchill has never been in, other than a few traffic offenses, is being arrested at various protests.

[BoulderDawg]

Oh by the way the article above is a classic example of how Bad and others edit things to twist a message.

Notice how in the article as posted by Bad this woman said she asked Ward for an interview and then the article starts talking about the Rocky Mountain News. Well truth is that Ward graciously agreed to an interview but Bad found it prudent to edit this bit of information out of his version. Ward always has time for his students and was always voted as one of the top professors on campus.

Also, in that same article this woman compares Ward to Larry Flynt. Bad saw fit not to include that either....Maybe because it showed a little too much bias!:eek:

[David Jamieson]

mas

i deal with purchasing of steel every week, sometime several times.
Prices have NOT risen 30%. NOt even in the last 2 years.
Yes, prices rise and there were even some fuel surcharges being applied, but overall, prices are stable within a dollar or two a pound. (steel is purchased by weight)

where are you getting that info from?

[BoulderDawg]

mas

i deal with purchasing of steel every week, sometime several times.
Prices have NOT risen 30%. NOt even in the last 2 years.
Yes, prices rise and there were even some fuel surcharges being applied, but overall, prices are stable within a dollar or two a pound. (steel is purchased by weight)

where are you getting that info from?


I was really laughing at that. I know nothing about the steel industry but I do know people can't sell the houses and buildings that are now standing......much less be able to build more. Construction has come to a grinding halt yet we're suspose to believe steel prices have rises 30%!:D

[1bad65]

The only legal trouble that Professor Churchill has never been in, other than a few traffic offenses, is being arrested at various protests.

I'll look into that one. I'm fairly sure there are likely a few restraining orders filed against him.

His buddy Russell Means is a convicted felon and ex-con.

[1bad65]

So that I don't have to go over all these pages...
Was this person convicted of these things?
Was there a trial?

Plagiarism is not a criminal offense. So there would be no trial.

Drake and I both posted some of the plagiarism, it was word-for-word. He also admitted he 'borrowed' Thomas Mails' artwork to sell as his own.

Here is a story where the poseur assaults a reporter for asking him about the artwork: http://cbs4denver.com/local/ward.churchill.raj.2.541927.html

This site has the video of the assault: http://treyjackson.typepad.com/junction/2005/02/rporter_questio.html

This site has side-by-side pictures of the two pictures in questions. Sanjuro, just look and draw your own conclusion. http://evanravitz.com/churchill/

[bakxierboxer]

Plagiarism is not a criminal offense. So there would be no trial.

No, Plagiarism isn't in the Criminal Code.
OTOH, if the works were copyrighted.......

[1bad65]

One of the poseur's attorneys, Lynne Stewart, was convicted in 2005 of passing messages between her client, Egyptian cleric Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman, and a terrorist organization.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123811620345153723.html?mod=article-outset-box

There was a restraining order granted to M. Annette Jaimes in 1995 against the poseur.

His first wife, Dora Lee Larson, was also allowed by the courts to have her address kept secret from the poseur. She was the one that court papers show he committed "physical violence" against.

[KC Elbows]

The lesson here for the less-than-capable here - it's not that 'Steel Companies Are Evil'

So, the steel companies aren't responsible for choosing to overcharge? I mean, you did say they chose to, irrespective of the repercussions.

Doesn't seem to me that they are blameless, if it's their choices on how to fleece their country that causes the result. I understand that one part of what you're saying is that big government is hard to run efficiently, but people, and industries, are responsible for the choices they make, and what you describe is the repercussions of choices that include greedy choices on the part of the steel industry.

[sanjuro_ronin]

mas

i deal with purchasing of steel every week, sometime several times.
Prices have NOT risen 30%. NOt even in the last 2 years.
Yes, prices rise and there were even some fuel surcharges being applied, but overall, prices are stable within a dollar or two a pound. (steel is purchased by weight)

where are you getting that info from?

Maybe he is referring to SS surcharges...even then..

[BoulderDawg]

This site has side-by-side pictures of the two pictures in questions. Sanjuro, just look and draw your own conclusion. http://evanravitz.com/churchill/

Sure take a look!:D

Here's another difference between a liberal and a Neo. Whereas Bad is going out of his way to sway your opinion on this, I, on the other hand, could not give a ratsass if you agree with me, disagree with me or simply don't care.

Neos need to be secure in the knowledge others feel the same way they do. They look at polls to form their "opinion". Liberal beliefs are NOT swayed by how popular something is.

[1bad65]

While some companies to overcharge the government, it's not always cut and dry based on price alone. I'll give you an example.

Years ago I worked for a high-tech company with military contracts for computer chips. We had monthly meetings with management on the goings-on of the company, and those had an open question and answer session. Someone asked how we had a certain chip that was sold to private companies at a lower price than it was sold to the military.

The answer given was that the chips sold to private companies were tested under much less harsh conditions (heat, time, etc) than the miltiary parts. The military demanded the tougher tests. So the die sold to the military had alot lower yields, thus making the manufacturing costs higher on their parts. My company was still making the exact same profit per die with parts sold to the private companies as they were on the parts sold to the military.

[1bad65]

Dude, you're about this far from being put back on ignore.

The pictures speak for themselves. It's not a 'Neo' thing, or liberal thing, or a poll thing. It's using your own two eyes and being honest with yourself.

Plus, the poseur himself admitted he 'borrowed' the artwork. And as we all know, you can't sell someone else's property that you 'borrowed'.

[GLW]

I always love the "Market will rule" mentality.

Basically, companies are amoral. This is one reason that the past few decades of legalisms by the corporate types with the aid of the right that essentially gives "personhood" to corporate entities is so strange. how can you grant personhood to an entity that can't behave as a person.

Then you have the level of moral and ethical behavior. It is worse that crowd or mob behavior. In a mob, people will tend to live DOWN to the lowest ethical/moral level of the members of the mob rather than live UP to the highest or even average level.

Corporations are group entities with lots of opportunity for annonymous behavior and therefore lessened consequences for behavior.

Surprise - they live DOWN to their lowest level.

Government essentially provides the market place - and sets its rules. Situations where no government does this are rare but typically referred to as things lie Anarchy, Den of Thieves, etc...

Now, the next part of the equation is that the big bad Steel companies are typically offshore. The US Steel industry makes very little of the steel we use here now. Much of it comes from...are you ready ... China.

You can blame the US government - but it is LACK of regulation that tends to lead to people getting screwed. Like the FDA - lack of regulation will lead to things like tainted food, drugs that have higher than expected fatalities, drugs that have falsified trial data (all of which happened under the last few years of deregulation) go figure...

The market, when controlled by oligopolies who CAN and WILL collude on things, will not truly be controlled by supply and demand since they can control supply and then they can manipulate demand.

Take a short walk into any grocery store...the demand of the customers has only a small part to play in what you can buy in those places. Shelf space is SOLD to different products...and it really won't matter that more people like your product if you do not pay for the shelf space....

[1bad65]

Liberal beliefs are swayed by how popular something is.

Whatever. Just look at gay marriage.

The people of California voted to ban it. A few liberal judges overturned the will of the people.

[BoulderDawg]

His first wife, Dora Lee Larson, was also allowed by the courts to have her address kept secret from the poseur. She was the one that court papers show he committed "physical violence" against.

Here's the quote from the link you provided:

That ended in 1984 when Larson filed for divorce and asked to have her address kept secret because of "past violence and threats" from Churchill.

Where are the court papers that showed Ward committed "Physical violence" against her?There's nothing here other than a request to keep her address private with an excuse that was never even investigated.

Seems like once again Bad is fudging the truth to try to make his argument stronger.....And he calls Professor Churchill a liar!:D


In any case I'm wondering how many people here have went through a divorce.

[BoulderDawg]

Whatever. Just look at gay marriage.

The people of California voted to ban it. A few liberal judges overturned the will of the people.


I should have said "NOT" swayed but you get the idea.

Anyone should have the right to marry whomever they wish. Popular opinion should not determine this.

If popular opinion ruled there would have never been a civil rights movement.

[1bad65]

Corporations are group entities with lots of opportunity for annonymous behavior and therefore lessened consequences for behavior.

Not true. They are responsible to the shareholders of the company.

You can blame the US government - but it is LACK of regulation that tends to lead to people getting screwed.

Quite the opposite. They passed a law FORCING banks to make bad mortgages. Then, shockingly, those people defaulted on them!

Cuba is highly regulated. And those people live in squalor. Hell, they have FORCED food rationing over there!

Take a short walk into any grocery store...the demand of the customers has only a small part to play in what you can buy in those places. Shelf space is SOLD to different products...and it really won't matter that more people like your product if you do not pay for the shelf space....

But if there is not enough demand for the product to pay for the shelf space, the product will not survive in an open marketplace.

And not all companies pay for shelf space. I'll bet money that companies like Coca-Cola, Anheiser-Busch, Kraft, etc don't pay a dime for shelf space.

[1bad65]

Where are the court papers that showed Ward committed "Physical violence" against her?There's nothing here other than a request to keep her address private with an excuse that was never even investigated.

My bad, it said "past violence". FYI, courts do not keep addresses of spouses in a divorce secret without just cause. However, this is common in situations where there is violence and/or threats. And we all know the poseur has left threats on women's answering machines.

And you have to go through a hearing to be granted a restraining order. You have to show evidence that you need one. It's not an 'apply and get, no questions asked' thing.

Seems like once again Bad is fudging the truth to try to make his argument stronger.....And he calls Professor Churchill a liar!:D

Did I edit the video of him assaulting that camerman? Did I photoshop the artwork in question?

Keep embarrassing yourself. Your making those kids who follow Ashida Kim look intelligent.

In any case I'm wondering how many people here have went through a divorce.

Why is it your business?

You won't even confirm your first name. ;)

[BoulderDawg]

And we all know the poseur has left threats on women's answering machines.

We do? I musta missed it. I'm assuming you have links to these recording.

I don't know what Ward said. Maybe he said something nasty to whomever it is you say he did. But unless we know exactly what he said you can't really say anything about it.

No matter though.......Bad, apparently you don't live in the same world as the rest of us. Most of us have at one time or the other gotten into a heated argument with a member of the opposite sex and may have said things we regreted later. For you see there's a lot of us guys out here that simply can't live up to the high moral family values that you espouse.

[Shaolinlueb]

The answer given was that the chips sold to private companies were tested under much less harsh conditions (heat, time, etc) than the miltiary parts. The military demanded the tougher tests. So the die sold to the military had alot lower yields, thus making the manufacturing costs higher on their parts. My company was still making the exact same profit per die with parts sold to the private companies as they were on the parts sold to the military.

also on the government spending more, when they buy something they want 1 price. they dont want you to come back and say oh we cant do that cause we didnt include it in the quote. so they overprice for a reason when they make things. the government will ask them for upgrades and testing that they normally wouldnt do. so they add it all together and shoot it off.

[Mas Judt]

mas

i deal with purchasing of steel every week, sometime several times.
Prices have NOT risen 30%. NOt even in the last 2 years.
Yes, prices rise and there were even some fuel surcharges being applied, but overall, prices are stable within a dollar or two a pound. (steel is purchased by weight)

where are you getting that info from?

The local Union Guys. Did not specify if it was pipe, rebar or whatever. I probably should have asked.

Are you sure there are no price hikes in the US distribution pipeline?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure take a look!:D

Here's another difference between a liberal and a Neo. Whereas Bad is going out of his way to sway your opinion on this, I, on the other hand, could not give a ratsass if you agree with me, disagree with me or simply don't care.

Neos need to be secure in the knowledge others feel the same way they do. They look at polls to form their "opinion". Liberal beliefs are NOT swayed by how popular something is.

Actually, I don't think he is trying to "Sway" anything, not on me, he knows me netter than that by now, I hope.
LOL
I asked a question, it was answered and he is trying to make his point clear.
That's all.
It was a honest question since I didn't know what happened.
My "opinion" on this matter is irrelevant since I don't care one way or another.
It was just curiosity.

[1bad65]

BD,

Just look at the pictures and tell me his is not just a flipped copy with the color changed.

[1bad65]

BD,

Just look at the pictures and tell me his is not just a flipped copy with the color changed.

[BoulderDawg]

I like the pretty pictures!!!!!!!:D

[1bad65]

I like the pretty pictures!!!!!!!:D

Just like the Ashida Kim drones, you can't accept the truth when it's right in front of your face.

[BoulderDawg]

Just like the Ashida Kim drones, you can't accept the truth when it's right in front of your face.

I don't even know who that is. I had to look it up on Google. From the brief bit of reading I did it is some guy who write books about Ninja training who wants to remain anonomous......

What can I say other than everyone knows who Ward is. He doesn't hide anything.

In any case, What has this Ashida Kim ever done to you? You have several options: You can buy his books or you can not buy his books.

I say more power to him if his books sell. It's none of your business if someone decides to become a disciple of this guy.

[1bad65]

I just despise frauds.

You apparently idolize them.

[BoulderDawg]

Our old friend Bill O'Reilly is back!:D Check this out:

Controversial Fox News host Bill O'Reilly took aim at Eminem's new video for "We Made You," Slim Shady himself and the rapper's fans Wednesday night on "The O'Reilly Factor."

"Few Americans take the vile rapper Eminem seriously," O'Reilly said. "He represents the lowest form of entertainment in this country and is a publicity hound to boot."

O'Reilly took issue with the lyric and video segment regarding Alaska Governor and former Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin that he slammed as misogynist.

"I'll invite Sarah Palin out to dinner, nail her/ Baby, say hello to my little friend," Em raps on the song.

The talk-show host called the Palin reference an "attack" that was "crude."

"It's so crude what he does," O'Reilly elaborated. "Kids see it, not adults." He also claimed that "no one over 25 listens to him" (which may be news to some of the veteran rapper's older fans). ..........

O'Reilly's guest, feminist Tammy Bruce, declared that Em's "objectification of Palin meant that all women can be used."

"Eminem is obviously on an obscene rant about Sarah Palin, it's totally obscene, totally inappropriate," O'Reilly continued.

"All I want to do is repeat that Eminem means nothing," he ended. "The video means nothing. It's played for kids that are confused."

Glad to hear hear I'm under 25!:D

In any case it sounds to me he's giving her a compliment! Maybe that Levi guy told Shady "That's some good stuff!"

It's not all good for Bill O'Reilly though. Interesting comments from Roger Ebert. By the way Roger before he got sick he spent a lot of time here in Boulder giving many talks and lectures.

Yes, the Sun-Times is liberal, having recently endorsed our first Democrat for President since LBJ. We were founded by Marshall Field one week before Pearl Harbor to provide a liberal voice in Chicago to counter the Tribune, which opposed an American war against Hitler. I'm sure you would have sided with the Trib at the time...................


Bill, I am concerned that you have been losing touch with reality recently. Did you really say you are more powerful than any politician?

That reminds me of the famous story about Squeaky the Chicago Mouse. It seems that Squeaky was floating on his back along the Chicago River one day. Approaching the Michigan Avenue lift bridge, he called out: Raise the bridge! I have an erection!

I'd say that last paragraph kinda sums it up in describing Bill O'Reilly!:D

[1bad65]

Let's see what Salon.com had to say about the fraud. This is hilarious!

"Ironically, and sadly, Churchill's approach to history and truth is remarkably similar to the Bush administration's. The only difference is that his propaganda is on the left, and theirs is on the right. For both, "reality" is what they say it is, and empirical evidence is just a bunch of meaningless window dressing. The Bush neocons "knew" that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 and had weapons of mass destruction, just as Churchill "knew" that the U.S. Army intentionally spread smallpox among the Mandan Indians. The senior Bush aide who famously told Ron Suskind that "we create our own reality" could have spoken for Churchill."

[1bad65]

Are you actually saying that the poseur's picture was not a copy of Thomas Mails' art?

[GLW]

“Not true. They are responsible to the shareholders of the company.”

And that responsibility is typically to give a return on investment. Typically, unless a shareholder has a substantial number of shares (as in enough to make them own a noticeable percentage of the company, they usually purchase a stock based upon its ability to either return a dividend or rise in value. Only a small portion of those investing in corporate America actually look at the ethical or social aspect of the company.

So, if your only accountability is to an entity that only sees the bottom line, you are not ethically or morally accountable to much of anything except the almighty dollar (or Yuan). Then, since your actual ownership of a share is substantially removed from the actions and decisions of the company, you can avoid taking any moral or ethical responsibility even further.

“Quite the opposite. They passed a law FORCING banks to make bad mortgages. Then, shockingly, those people defaulted on them! “

Provide proof of these bad loans. This is a right wing talking point and I have yet to find proof of it. The ones making the bad loans also then SOLD the securities multiple times in a very large PONZI scheme. The actions that did this were almost identical to what ENRON did…and ended just

“Cuba is highly regulated. And those people live in squalor. Hell, they have FORCED food rationing over there!”

You are saying that there is only ONE single cause…and that is at best naive…and at worst stupid. I am SURE that the US’ relationship or lack of one with Cuba for 50 years has had NOTHING to do with that.

“But if there is not enough demand for the product to pay for the shelf space, the product will not survive in an open marketplace.”

Not really. What it does is relieve the store of actually having to KNOW what their customers want. It is one of the reasons that when you walk into a chain store, you see the same things in their stores (Company A- store 1 store 2, etc…)…and then when you go to a different chain store (Company B) you see essentially the same things.

While there ARE companies that are big enough to NOT have to pay, that is not the way it works for the smaller companies.

In the radio industry way back when, there was actually a big scandal about this. It was called PAYOLA and was basically paying disc jockeys and radio stations to play certain songs…

How can the market place be free if the supplier can circumvent the consumers ability to know they have options? This is where such a system is broken…and why regulations come in.

[1bad65]

Provide proof of these bad loans. This is a right wing talking point and I have yet to find proof of it. The ones making the bad loans also then SOLD the securities multiple times in a very large PONZI scheme. The actions that did this were almost identical to what ENRON did…and ended just

It's called the CRA- The Community Reincestment Act. The proof is all the defaults! People who did not qualify for a house couldn't make the payments. It's not rocket science.

Actually that is not a Ponzi scheme, because there is an actual product, ie the bad mortgages. ENRON traded energy commodities, a totally different thing altogether. Now the whole reason the bad mortgages sold was simple: They were Government guaranteed loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So they were not considered risky investments. And the Democrats in Congress, led by Barney Frank, would not vote to open their books. So when they went under, the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

See Barney and Co in action. See how they call Republicans wanting regulation and oversight racists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQHRNmPqIAo

You are saying that there is only ONE single cause…and that is at best naive…and at worst stupid. I am SURE that the US’ relationship or lack of one with Cuba for 50 years has had NOTHING to do with that.

Every other nation besides the US trades with Cuba, so try another excuse. Even when the USSR was giving them billions, those poor people lived in squalor. Government control is NEVER good.

USSR had food rationing, China has forced abortions, North Korea can't feed itself. Is that enough examples?

While there ARE companies that are big enough to NOT have to pay, that is not the way it works for the smaller companies.

How can the market place be free if the supplier can circumvent the consumers ability to know they have options? This is where such a system is broken…and why regulations come in.

In the radio industry way back when, there was actually a big scandal about this. It was called PAYOLA and was basically paying disc jockeys and radio stations to play certain songs…

And consumers can freely shop in smaller stores rather than chain supermarkets.

FYI, 'payola' is illegal under FCC rules. The FCC does not regulate grocery stores.

[BoulderDawg]

Just saw this segment on MSNBC talking about Post Tramatic Stress Disorder. PTSD.......

It now appears that every other soldier coming back from Iraq has it....or at least claim they have it. Yep I guess it's a tough job riding around in a Humvee all day harassing citizens and hitting on local teenage girls. Then at night going to a club and drinking beer.

Anyway, if they can get a doctor to say they have PTSD then it's a golden ticket that will pay the rest of their lives. Problems is many doctors are refusing to give this diagnosis. The neos are fit to be tied!.....How dare a doctor not give everyone who comes back from Iraq a disability paycheck for the rest of their lives!!!!!

I think I'm suffering from PTSD for just living through 8 years of Bush. I'm going to apply for my check!:D

[1bad65]

Have respect for soldiers who fought for our country. Douchebag.

PTSD is nothing to laugh at. Nor is it a 'golden ticket'.

You sure mouth of alot about brave men, as an anonymous moron on an Internet forum.....

[GLW]

Other sources would disagree with you…. And again, you are being overly simplistic.
“In a nutshell, they blame the crisis on three things:
*A massively overleveraged financial sector (with FHLMC as the worst culprit);
*Horrible underwriting at every level from loan origination to S & P;
*'Toxic' loan products which - combined with poor underwriting - allowed unqualified borrowers to take out loans they never could have been expected to repay.
Those loans were immediately securitized into the highly overleveraged financial institutions - instead of being held by the originating institutions which would have had skin in the game as to real loan quality - and when they unsurprisingly blew up, the negative leverage effects killed the institutions. This was, of course, made worse by the array of poorly designed (but fee rich!) risk-managing tools that made up much of the secondary markets “

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enabled the greed at the lending institutions and Wall Street to reach critical mass. CRA was not the culprit. Had the lenders kept the risky assets as was intended, they would NOT have overleveraged. Had Fannie and Freddie NOT provided a means to send out and overleverage the risky loans, the problem would not have occurred. AND had the innate greed of many on Wall Street, recognizing the possibility to use Fannie and Freddie to puff up their portfolios and make a lot of money fast, the whole thing would not have burned to the ground.

But to lay blame on CRA then you are saying you truly want more regulation because the problem there was not just the lending but the lack of regulation and audit/oversight, followed by the same lack of oversight in Fannie and Freddie and then followed by an overly stupid set of rules concerning book to bill in regards to investments (allowing companies to value their investments at what they THINK they will be worth instead of what they ARE worth).


“Every other nation besides the US trades with Cuba, so try another excuse. Even when the USSR was giving them billions, those poor people lived in squalor. Government control is NEVER good.

USSR had food rationing, China has forced abortions, North Korea can't feed itself. Is that enough examples?”

Absolutes are dangerous things – and usually wrong.

Government control – so private control of companies and industries that are too big to fail IS good… Yep, you sure can trust the private sector to NOT screw the pooch.

China and forced abortions…been to China…know how that REALLY works? Know WHY such a rule was put in place… So, how was Russia BEFORE the Kremlin – I hear there was no rationing under the Csar…just starvation and executions.

Again, overly simplistic.

“And consumers can freely shop in smaller stores rather than chain supermarkets.

FYI, 'payola' is illegal under FCC rules. The FCC does not regulate grocery stores.”

Payola is illegal for the FCC so why would it be OK to do the same thing in an non-regulated area… Same ethical problem…and you get a different answer?

What local stores are there? Hmm… For me, I have HEB – runs the same way in regards to space as Kroger. Fiesta – same thing…. In fact, all of the smaller chains run by selling shelf space.

Leaving the Mom and Pop stores…sorry, but within a 15 mile radius of my home there is not a mom and pop operation that is anything larger than a Stop and Rob….your argument, again, does not hold water.

[BoulderDawg]

Have respect for soldiers who fought for our country. Douchebag.

PTSD is nothing to laugh at. Nor is it a 'golden ticket'.

You sure mouth of alot about brave men, as an anonymous moron on an Internet forum.....

I didn't think you liked con men.

According to the story on MSNBC 30% of the troops coming back from Iraq and afghanistan are making claims of PTSD.

If you buy those numbers, especially in this war, then I have some swamp land in florida you might be interested in.

They have it down to a racket. They know how to answer the questions and how to act.

I too suffer from PTSD from having Bush as president for eight years. I'm putting in my claim tomorrow!:D

[Kansuke]

I didn't think you liked con men.

According to the story on MSNBC 30% of the troops coming back from Iraq and afghanistan are making claims of PTSD.

If you buy those numbers, especially in this war, then I have some swamp land in florida you might be interested in.

They have it down to a racket. They know how to answer the questions and how to act.

I too suffer from PTSD from having Bush as president for eight years. I'm putting in my claim tomorrow!:D

How long did you serve in the military and what war did you fight in?

[BoulderDawg]

CU has just said they plan to challenge Ward's reinstatement.....Bring it on!:D

[mawali]

Just saw this segment on MSNBC talking about Post Tramatic Stress Disorder. PTSD.......

It now appears that every other soldier coming back from Iraq has it....or at least claim they have it. Yep I guess it's a tough job riding around in a Humvee all day harassing citizens and hitting on local teenage girls. Then at night going to a club and drinking beer.

Anyway, if they can get a doctor to say they have PTSD then it's a golden ticket that will pay the rest of their lives. Problems is many doctors are refusing to give this diagnosis. The neos are fit to be tied!.....How dare a doctor not give everyone who comes back from Iraq a disability paycheck for the rest of their lives!!!!!

I think I'm suffering from PTSD for just living through 8 years of Bush. I'm going to apply for my check!:D


30% is low, if you look closely!
When I was in the Corps, we would go on patrol and when we had night manuevers and not sleep for 96 hours or more, when you got back to the baracks, it would be hard to get to sleep. it would take a few days o get back on track. Again, I was never in a war but training was hard enough! Just think about those guys having a tour of duty over 1 year and more and many on 2-3 rotations, it takes a toll on your mental wellbeing!

Alot of guys just won't fess up to having PTSD and if even they mention it, they will be ostracized as being weak!

semper fi. my brother

[Drake]

PTSD was very high in other wars, but it was never diagnosed. WWII was particularly bad.

[1bad65]

PTSD was very high in other wars, but it was never diagnosed. WWII was particularly bad.

My father is a Vietnam vet. He has PTSD. It's real, and not fun to live with someone who has it.

Whether you support a war or not, I feel you have to respect the men and women who fought in it.

[BoulderDawg]

My father is a Vietnam vet. He has PTSD. It's real, and not fun to live with someone who has it.

Whether you support a war or not, I feel you have to respect the men and women who fought in it.

No one forced him to go. Had I'd been old enough it would have been off to Canada for me.

So has he been bleeding the system dry for the last 40 years?

[GLW]

Man, someone must have pi$$ed in his cornflakes...

I sort of liked George Carlin's riff on language and PTSD....

Back in WWI, it was called SHELL SHOCK - short, had those "SH"s and "CK"s that make things stark in pronunciation. By WWII, we were using the term "BATTLE FATIGUE" sounds like he is just TIRED...poor guy....and makes it seem less important.

Now we have 4 fancy words POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER - oh it is just STRESS and he is not handling it well - he has a DISORDER in how he handles STRESS....

And bingo, we have covered up the problem with language.

The fact is that EVERYONE who goes to any war comes back changed. If they do not, they were pretty messed up when they went. Also, the changes are for the most part NEVER for the better.

You take a person from 18 to 25 and then send them out to face imminent death, destruction, the loss of friends, abuse, destruction, fatigue (as in no rest while under fire) and then people are surprised when some of them come back "broken"

Then the official response of the government is that it is no big deal - that is until they snap and do something heinous.

And we are now at the downward end of those suffering from Shell Shock from WWII, Korean, and Vietnam. People are desensitized to it all and the government is brushing the new cases under the rug...

But this time around, it is going to be worse as far as undiagnosed issues and long term care. There are numbers of wounded that are alive only because of advancements in medicine since Vietnam or because of better equipment. But at the same time, there are major problems brewing with concussive head trauma that can and does go undetected for a good while. In a similar fashion, many in the government have been trying to say these injuries are not real. (funny, if you have ever had a car accident with hitting your head - then to discover you had a concussion - 3 days later - why is it so hard to understand that soldiers may not even know they have suffered a major head / brain trauma.).

I generally have not agreed with the US in regards to where and when we have deployed military force. I also have a problem with soldiers who leave their consciences at the door...and just follow orders blindly....

BUT, the US Government made a contract with each and every soldier who signed up (or in the old days, was drafted)..and that contract was to fix what gets broke for the soldier when he is doing the job the government gave him.)

The US has a bad habit of reneging on that contract. They did it after WWI, were a bit better after WWII (but, I can personally relate how they screwed over many who were injured then), the went back to being bad about it for Korea and Vietnam...

Supporting the troops is NOT waving a flag or being gung ho for sending them places to fight.

Supporting the troops means
(1) making sure they are deployed only when absolutely necessary
(2) deployed with a clear attainable mission
(3) deployed with the right equipment and numbers
(4) NOT coerced or stop lossed because you didn't plan well
(5) Provided a transition plan to take them from soldier back to citizen
(6) provide them with the medical and social service care needed due to their service
(7) actually keeping your word and contracts made with them as a government to soldier.

We don't do very well on most of that.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;929030]
Yep I guess it's a tough job riding around in a Humvee all day harassing citizens and hitting on local teenage girls. Then at night going to a club and drinking beer.

You have no fuking clue:rolleyes: Iraq is full of clubs for the soldiers to hang out at:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Man, someone must have pi$$ed in his cornflakes...

I sort of liked George Carlin's riff on language and PTSD....

Back in WWI, it was called SHELL SHOCK - short, had those "SH"s and "CK"s that make things stark in pronunciation. By WWII, we were using the term "BATTLE FATIGUE" sounds like he is just TIRED...poor guy....and makes it seem less important.

Now we have 4 fancy words POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER - oh it is just STRESS and he is not handling it well - he has a DISORDER in how he handles STRESS....

And bingo, we have covered up the problem with language.

The fact is that EVERYONE who goes to any war comes back changed. If they do not, they were pretty messed up when they went. Also, the changes are for the most part NEVER for the better.

You take a person from 18 to 25 and then send them out to face imminent death, destruction, the loss of friends, abuse, destruction, fatigue (as in no rest while under fire) and then people are surprised when some of them come back "broken"

Then the official response of the government is that it is no big deal - that is until they snap and do something heinous.

And we are now at the downward end of those suffering from Shell Shock from WWII, Korean, and Vietnam. People are desensitized to it all and the government is brushing the new cases under the rug...

But this time around, it is going to be worse as far as undiagnosed issues and long term care. There are numbers of wounded that are alive only because of advancements in medicine since Vietnam or because of better equipment. But at the same time, there are major problems brewing with concussive head trauma that can and does go undetected for a good while. In a similar fashion, many in the government have been trying to say these injuries are not real. (funny, if you have ever had a car accident with hitting your head - then to discover you had a concussion - 3 days later - why is it so hard to understand that soldiers may not even know they have suffered a major head / brain trauma.).

I generally have not agreed with the US in regards to where and when we have deployed military force. I also have a problem with soldiers who leave their consciences at the door...and just follow orders blindly....

BUT, the US Government made a contract with each and every soldier who signed up (or in the old days, was drafted)..and that contract was to fix what gets broke for the soldier when he is doing the job the government gave him.)

The US has a bad habit of reneging on that contract. They did it after WWI, were a bit better after WWII (but, I can personally relate how they screwed over many who were injured then), the went back to being bad about it for Korea and Vietnam...

Supporting the troops is NOT waving a flag or being gung ho for sending them places to fight.

Supporting the troops means
(1) making sure they are deployed only when absolutely necessary
(2) deployed with a clear attainable mission
(3) deployed with the right equipment and numbers
(4) NOT coerced or stop lossed because you didn't plan well
(5) Provided a transition plan to take them from soldier back to citizen
(6) provide them with the medical and social service care needed due to their service
(7) actually keeping your word and contracts made with them as a government to soldier.

We don't do very well on most of that.

Well said!!
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Here's the truth as to what goes on in Iraq.

Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi (August 19, 1991 - March 12, 2006) was a 14-year-old Iraqi girl who was gang-raped and murdered along with her family by U.S. soldiers.

Abeer Hamza lived with her mother and father (Fakhriya Taha Muhasen, 34, and Qassim Hamza Raheem, 45, respectively) and their 3 other children, 7-year-old daughter Hadeel Qassim Hamza, 13-year-old son Mohammed and his younger brother. Their house was situated approximately 200 metres from a 6-man U.S. traffic checkpoint, southwest of the village of Yusufiyah, which lies west of the larger township of Al-Mahmudiyah (in the coalition-termed area "Triangle of Death").

According to her neighbours, Abeer spent most of her days at home as her parents would not allow her to go to school because of security concerns. The American soldiers would often watch Abeer from their checkpoint, doing her chores and tending the garden. The neighbours had warned Abeer's father of this but he replied it was not a problem as she was just a small girl.

Abeer's brother Mohammed (who survived along with his younger brother due to being at school at the time of the killings) recalls that the soldiers often searched the house. And on one such occasion PFC Steven Dale Green ran his index finger down Abeer's cheek, which had terrified the 14 year old girl.

Abeer's mother told her relatives before the murders that, whenever she caught the soldiers staring at Abeer, they would give her the thumbs-up sign, point to her daughter and say "Very good, very good." Evidently this had concerned her and she made plans for Abeer to spend night times sleeping at her uncle's (Ahmad Qassim's) house.

On March 12, 2006 the soldiers (from the 502nd Infantry Regiment) at the checkpoint had been drinking alcohol and discussing plans to rape Abeer. In broad daylight they walked to the house (not wearing their uniforms) and separated Abeer from her family into 2 different rooms. Steven Green then murdered her parents and younger sister, while two other soldiers raped Abeer. He then emerged from the room saying "I just killed them, all are dead". He then raped Abeer, shot her in the head and proceeded (along with the other soldiers) to set fire to the house and bodies.

The neighbours were among the first to discover the scene. One recalled "The poor girl, she was so beautiful she lay there, one leg was stretched and the other was bended and her dress was lifted to her neck."

How's that for passing your time in Iraq?
Here's their defense:

When news surfaced that GIs allegedly stalked, terrorized, gang-raped, and killed an Iraqi woman, the U.S. tried minimizing this latest atrocity by our troops -- claiming the victim was age 25 or even 50, implying a rape-murder is less horrific if the victim is an older woman. Now, Article 32 hearings -- the military equivalent of a grand jury -- have ended at Camp Liberty, a U.S. base in Iraq (U.S. troops are exempt from Iraqi prosecution). In September, a general will rule whether the accused should be court-martialed. The defense already pleads post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD): in four months preceding the crime, 17 of the accused GIs' battalion were killed; their company, Bravo, suffered eight combat deaths.

But as the U.S. spun the victim's identity, investigators knew her name: Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi.

Abeer means "fragrance of flowers." She was 14 years old.

The soldiers noticed her at a checkpoint. They stalked her after one or more of them expressed his intention to rape her. On March 12, after playing cards while slugging whisky mixed with a high-energy drink and practicing their golf swings, they changed into black civvies and burst into Abeer's home in Mahmoudiya, a town 50 miles south of Baghdad. They killed her mother Fikhriya, father Qassim, and five-year-old sister Hadeel with bullets to the forehead, and "took turns" raping Abeer. Finally, they murdered her, drenched the bodies with kerosene, and lit them on fire to destroy the evidence. Then the GIs grilled chicken wings.

Sounds to me they really need more practice on that golf swing.

[Baqualin]

Here's the truth as to what goes on in Iraq.



How's that for passing your time in Iraq?
Here's their defense:



Sounds to me they really need more practice on that golf swing.

You take one incident and claim that's how our soldiers pass their time in Iraq.....like I said before YOU HAVE NO FUKING CLUE.....you show more and more everyday just how big of an idiot you are

[mawali]

BD,

No doubt the crime took place but if one has the frame of mind to cover it up, then one must do the time. Evil must always be punished.

There are times when you go out and spend days on alert busting down doors, being ambushed and your buddies get killed, you snap and start taking it out on innocent people, it is time to rest and call it a day! Usually IMPOSSIBLE to rest in these times so you are pumped up and it is hard to come down. No excuse, though!

[1bad65]

No one forced him to go. Had I'd been old enough it would have been off to Canada for me.

So has he been bleeding the system dry for the last 40 years?

**** you.

He does recieve some disbility, but it's for PHYSICAL wounds he suffered over there. He is a PHYSICALLY Disabled Veteran. Purple Heart recipient. He has had quite a few surgeries throughout the years as well. Some he paid for out of his own pocket because he preferred a certain surgeon here in town to the VA surgeons.

And he worked a full time job since he came back. He didn't just sit home and collect checks.

[1bad65]

You take one incident and claim that's how our soldiers pass their time in Iraq.....like I said before YOU HAVE NO FUKING CLUE.....you show more and more everyday just how big of an idiot you are

He has no clue about alot of things.

Keep in mind, quite a few of these 'Iraqi vets' coming back and telling these alleged horror stories are proven to be phony veterans who never went to Iraq, and in some cases never even served in the military at all.

[Baqualin]

BD,

No doubt the crime took place but if one has the frame of mind to cover it up, then one must do the time. Evil must always be punished.

There are times when you go out and spend days on alert busting down doors, being ambushed and your buddies get killed, you snap and start taking it out on innocent people, it is time to rest and call it a day! Usually IMPOSSIBLE to rest in these times so you are pumped up and it is hard to come down. No excuse, though!

I agree there's no excuse......the problem I have is he makes it sound like it's every one of our boys. I would be willing to bet there's more of that going on right here at home (non military) in a month than the whole time we've been in Iraq.

[Old Noob]

Here's the truth as to what goes on in Iraq.



How's that for passing your time in Iraq?
Here's their defense:



Sounds to me they really need more practice on that golf swing.

To borrow a quote commonly used by my Vietnam brethren, "You weren't there." I don't mean "there" when the rape occurred but, rather, "there" in Iraq generally. Yes, American soldiers have committed heinous criminal acts in Iran. Similarly, Americans commit heinous criminal acts here. In Iraq, as it is here, many of the good acts performed by people are not reported because they are less news-worthy than said heinous criminal acts. Reasonable people don't judge an entire group based on the behavior of a very small percentage of its constituents. How would you like if someone assumed you had the same political beliefs as 1Bad because 1Bad was the only American he had met and he, therefore, assumed that all Americans thought like 1Bad. You'd be a little chagrined I imagine.

I'm not making these points as a supporter of the war in Iraq. I don't support the war there and never thought it was a good idea. Unlike you, however, I served there and, therefore, have at least some basis by which to form and educated point of view. Your point of view seems to be informed solely by the media you choose to read, which seems to be pre-geared to you political/philosophical ideologies.

[1bad65]

I generally have not agreed with the US in regards to where and when we have deployed military force. I also have a problem with soldiers who leave their consciences at the door...and just follow orders blindly....

BUT, the US Government made a contract with each and every soldier who signed up (or in the old days, was drafted)..and that contract was to fix what gets broke for the soldier when he is doing the job the government gave him.)

The US has a bad habit of reneging on that contract. They did it after WWI, were a bit better after WWII (but, I can personally relate how they screwed over many who were injured then), the went back to being bad about it for Korea and Vietnam...

Supporting the troops is NOT waving a flag or being gung ho for sending them places to fight.

Supporting the troops means
(1) making sure they are deployed only when absolutely necessary
(2) deployed with a clear attainable mission
(3) deployed with the right equipment and numbers
(4) NOT coerced or stop lossed because you didn't plan well
(5) Provided a transition plan to take them from soldier back to citizen
(6) provide them with the medical and social service care needed due to their service
(7) actually keeping your word and contracts made with them as a government to soldier.

We don't do very well on most of that.

Very well said.

[1bad65]

I'm not making these points as a supporter of the war in Iraq. I don't support the war there and never thought it was a good idea. Unlike you, however, I served there and, therefore, have at least some basis by which to form and educated point of view. Your point of view seems to be informed solely by the media you choose to read, which seems to be pre-geared to you political/philosophical ideologies.

In his own little world, he still knows more about it than you do. :rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

He has no clue about alot of things.

Keep in mind, quite a few of these 'Iraqi vets' coming back and telling these alleged horror stories are proven to be phony veterans who never went to Iraq, and in some cases never even served in the military at all.

I normally sit back and listen, until he starts insulting my son....then I can't resist giving the idiot a piece of my mind.....what's sad if the radical muslims got a hold of him they would cut his head off very quickly.
BQ

[Old Noob]

In his own little world, he still knows more about it than you do. :rolleyes:

BD? Yeah, obviously.

[BoulderDawg]

BD,

No doubt the crime took place but if one has the frame of mind to cover it up, then one must do the time. Evil must always be punished.

There are times when you go out and spend days on alert busting down doors, being ambushed and your buddies get killed, you snap and start taking it out on innocent people, it is time to rest and call it a day! Usually IMPOSSIBLE to rest in these times so you are pumped up and it is hard to come down. No excuse, though!


The problem here was this was not one single soldier who just snapped, This a group of at least 5 and probably a lot more that knew about it.

Granted this savage crime was extreme. And even in a crime such as this where US soldiers killed an entire family the US government tried to cover it up. Imagine how many lesser crimes were covered up.

Also, the things leading up to the crime is telling. The soldiers staring at their 14 year old daughter then giving thumbs up.....Apparently the entire neighborhood knew about this and the family was warned. I also have no doubt that the locals informed the commanding officers in charge as to what was going on but I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

[1bad65]

I normally sit back and listen, until he starts insulting my son....then I can't resist giving the idiot a piece of my mind.....what's sad if the radical muslims got a hold of him they would cut his head off very quickly.
BQ

Exactly.

They call people like him "useful idiots".

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement, reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam."

-Bruce Thornton, professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno.

[Old Noob]

The problem here was this was not one single soldier who just snapped, This a group of at least 5 and probably a lot more that knew about it.

Granted this savage crime was extreme. And even in a crime such as this where US soldiers killed an entire family the US government tried to cover it up. Imagine how many lesser crimes were covered up.

Also, the things leading up to the crime is telling. The soldiers staring at their 14 year old daughter then giving thumbs up.....Apparently the entire neighborhood knew about this and the family was warned. I also have no doubt that the locals informed the commanding officers in charge as to what was going on but I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Five out of what BD? The 101st Airborne Division has at least 20,000 troops. The Army has how many in Iraq? Do you know? How about the Marines, Navy, and Air Force? What are the percentages BD? Do you know? What are the per capita violent crime statistics in the deployed military environment verses in garrison verses civilian violent crime statistics? These are the questions you might want to have an answer to before you start calling out an entire class of folks (military members) based on the actions of a few. A wise man once said that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but he is not entitled to his own facts. Have an opinion BD. That is your right. But stop talking out of your a$$ about facts you are parcing selectively at best and manufacturing at worst.

[1bad65]

A wise man once said that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but he is not entitled to his own facts.

That sure hit the nail on the head. ;)

But look at the guy, his idol does the exact same thing. :rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

I'm not making these points as a supporter of the war in Iraq. I don't support the war there and never thought it was a good idea. Unlike you, however, I served there and, therefore, have at least some basis by which to form and educated point of view.

You fought a war you did not believe in? I don't compromise my principles and beliefs for anybody.

[BoulderDawg]

**** you.

He does recieve some disbility, but it's for PHYSICAL wounds he suffered over there. He is a PHYSICALLY Disabled Veteran. Purple Heart recipient. He has had quite a few surgeries throughout the years as well. Some he paid for out of his own pocket because he preferred a certain surgeon here in town to the VA surgeons.

And he worked a full time job since he came back. He didn't just sit home and collect checks.

So was he or was he not diagnosed with PTSD?

That's sounds like something you pulled out of thin air just to make your argument. And you call Ward a liar.

As far as I know, Ward has never claimed any injury from being in Viet Nam......However I'm pretty sure that if you asked him if he would do it again he would say "No".

[Old Noob]

You fought a war you did not believe in? I don't compromise my principles and beliefs for anybody.

Well the case is closed. You're superior. Glad to see you live in such a simple black and white world. Congratulations!

[KC Elbows]

You fought a war you did not believe in? I don't compromise my principles and beliefs for anybody.

In fairness, it's a bit more complicated than that.

A lot of guys who serve view it as serving under a belief that they will be used wisely more than not so, and if poorly used, they had best be there to get their brothers through. Principles can sometimes be at odds for anyone, and fulfilling one can mean utterly compromising another, and this is not just for soldiers, but for everyone.

As an example, it's often true in protest culture as well. Many people will back whoever is on "their side" regardless of the virtue of that person. Even though I believe in allowing multiple parties, I would not currently vote for a Republican, not because one cannot be capable, but because they are currently in a paradigm where their individual goals get swallowed up by the larger goals of the party. Since I have only two real choices much of the time, and one is not an option, my democratic principle is a bit useless.

Principles that don't interact with reality are more dangerous than principles compromised, imo.

Nonetheless, 1bad giving you flak for backing a guy regardless of what may be reality is kind of funny, given his party's current investment in tin foil hats and Glen Beck.

[BoulderDawg]

Well the case is closed. You're superior. Glad to see you live in such a simple black and white world. Congratulations!

Sometimes it is black and white. There are just a few things that I absolutely draw the line at.

[Old Noob]

In fairness, it's a bit more complicated than that.

A lot of guys who serve view it as serving under a belief that they will be used wisely more than not so, and if poorly used, they had best be there to get their brothers through. Principles can sometimes be at odds for anyone, and fulfilling one can mean utterly compromising another, and this is not just for soldiers, but for everyone.

As an example, it's often true in protest culture as well. Many people will back whoever is on "their side" regardless of the virtue of that person. Even though I believe in allowing multiple parties, I would not currently vote for a Republican, not because one cannot be capable, but because they are currently in a paradigm where their individual goals get swallowed up by the larger goals of the party. Since I have only two real choices much of the time, and one is not an option, my principle is a bit useless.

Principles that don't interact with reality are more dangerous than principles compromised, imo.

Nonetheless, 1bad giving you flak for backing a guy regardless of what may be reality is kind of funny, given his party's current investment in tin foil hats and Glen Beck.

Well said on all counts!

[BoulderDawg]

Five out of what BD? The 101st Airborne Division has at least 20,000 troops. The Army has how many in Iraq? Do you know? How about the Marines, Navy, and Air Force? What are the percentages BD? Do you know? What are the per capita violent crime statistics in the deployed military environment verses in garrison verses civilian violent crime statistics? These are the questions you might want to have an answer to before you start calling out an entire class of folks (military members) based on the actions of a few. A wise man once said that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but he is not entitled to his own facts. Have an opinion BD. That is your right. But stop talking out of your a$$ about facts you are parcing selectively at best and manufacturing at worst.

It was 5 people who participated in the rape and murder but one has to look at the environment surrounding it.

Most people in this country would never dream of making unwanted sexual advances towards a 14 year old girl at her home in front of her parents yet apparently this happened with regularity over in Iraq.

It's called mob mentality. Immoral behavior is accepted as long as the entire group is doing it. It went on and nobody said anything.

[1bad65]

So was he or was he not diagnosed with PTSD?

That's sounds like something you pulled out of thin air just to make your argument. And you call Ward a liar.

As far as I know, Ward has never claimed any injury from being in Viet Nam......However I'm pretty sure that if you asked him if he would do it again he would say "No".

I believe so. I don't tend to discuss it with him. I know he has it, I lived with him for about 20 years. I won't go into details, but it's sad to see. He gets some disability for the physical wounds he suffered. The one he was awarded a Purple Heart for. There is no 'claim' here, I've taken him to VA hospitals myself for treatment of his wounds.

But the physical scars you can see. I've met some of his buddies too. One guy came home missing a leg. They aren't like your poseur buddy.

He puts it this way, He is proud he went over there to try and keep the South Vietnamese people free. But he feels the war was fought wrong, and alot of veterans were screwed over by the government.