The Lineage of Yip Man

[Shadow_warrior8]

Chinese say, one day as a Sifu, one life time as a father
And to honour the Sifu, the way, ancestors

These years I have heard many stories on Yip Man, whose decision to teach wingchun in Hongkong, and to Bruce Lee, is the reason why many even know of wingchun in the western World. However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, Someone sent his student to beat up Yip man, He was taught the wrong forms, He wasnt a good teacher etc. He lied about Leung Bik, the elder son of Leung Jan whose only student was Yip Man, which explains the difference in simplicity and internal elements different from Chan Wah Shun Lineage

Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee's father, Dim Mak etc....
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=snap&act=fetchHtmlsnap&m=b18b844601a6b34e0b7cbf8c36f946c1&surl=http%3A%2F%2F1293633.qzone.qq.com%2Fblog%2F12 28575809&kw=%D5%E2%BE%CD%CA%C7%C8%EE%C6%E6%C9%BD%D3%BD%B4%B A
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=16&id=1265345&star=1&page=1

While I take somethings with a pinch of salt(I am just biased), but then again I wasnt there. I didnt sit in the same space as Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Gwok Fu, the greats of Wingchun. He was there, trained, talked, had tea with them.
Rumours and stories from people present about people passed. Nothing can be verified. Master Gwok Fu who describes Master Yuen Kay San's art as Fast and Ruthless, said he matched him in Gor Sao. Someone said Master Yuen Kay San also learnt from Ng Chun So, but then again I wasnt there, and I might not believe, or want to believe what this Great Man said- yeah its silly, I know. Everything I have seen of Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung in China- where he is recognised and honoured as the most Traditional of Wingchun, from Sum Nung's students, sifus is mindblowing impressive! Anyone has a time machine?

By all current China records, Yiu Choi, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were legends in Guangzhou-the 3 heros, even before Yip Man went to hongkong. They were seen together often, training together, even overlooking each other students. So the rumour something is missing in Yip Man, he didnt learn everything, students beat up an elder, presumes the masters didnt exchange, werent close. This would not make sense. They definately exchanged their arts, points, concepts. If your training buddy had a technique, theory you didnt have, you would either try to learn it right? One thing is for sure, they had great respect for each other and were amiable together, as the whole provice had for 3 of them.

In China, they still think the world of Yip Man, hence the chinese goverment build Yip man Tong, ironically, Yip Man became world wide famous in hongkong.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik. The Chinese goverment even detailed how many sons he had, and that they went to vietnam to teach. Also Sifu Garry recently posted 3 documents archived in Yip Man Tong, that Yip man said, Leung Bik handed to him.

http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/11/20081112112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/06/20080618175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003/08/20030814102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008/01/20080110111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm

The confirmation of Leung Bik explains to me, why Leung Sheung's art is soft, relaxed and powerful, like a women's art, as taught by Kenneth Chung, and described by my Sigung Peter Yang- that Leung Sheung taught him a internal soft art. Why Sigung Yip Chun always says to relaxed, to be sung, to use just enough energy. Why Master Hawkins and Bruce Lee said, Yip Man controlled them gently on their feet, in chi sao, with very slight movement or no movement, versus the more. In internal arts, a little energy is all it takes. From big movement to small movement, from small movement to no movement. According to Master Wang Xiang Zhai, that is the real movement

We chinese say, the tree that is big catches alot of wind. This is what I think of the rumours and stories of Yip man. In the latest Yip Man Movie, where in china, they are buzzing about, a scene says, Chinese lost of face is a No-No. Even if what is said is true, chinese loss of face is a No-No.

So I hope this will help those who are seeking to rubbish the name of Yip Man, now see there is another side of the coin, not found on youtube or english language. There is nothing missing from Yip Man Lineage. He did seek to simplify the art(as said by Master Yip Chun), for mass teaching maybe or maybe he wanted to follow in his Sigung's footsteps, Leung Jan, to present the essense of Wingchun
I have realised that most concepts are not repeated in Yip Man forms- hence only those loyal will learn everything, e.g chou dai choi in kulo, or taap choi in yahu- it is presented in Wooden Dummy. I just didnt know the name it was called in other lineages.

Here are my sharings on my ongoing project into Mainland China's Martial Arts. Of course we tend to believe who and what we want to believe
So I humbly present my small research project as a tribute to Legendary Yip Man.

[reneritchie]

There was a famous letter written by Yuen Jo-Tong and published in New Martial Hero in HK in the 70s. It tried to set the record straight about Yuen Kay-San and Sum Nung's background.

It quoted material on Fok Bo-Chuen and Fung Siu-Ching from the Fatshan archives, and mentioned some of the early training at Tin Hoi restaurant. Most interestingly, it finished up saying Kwok Fu, who was also around at the time, could corroborate Sum Nung's account of events, and that Yuen Jo-Tong and Sum Nung would be more than happy to take anyone and go see Kwok Fu together.

Since almost everyone has passed away now, it's likely that kind of opportunity will never be again -- and stories will again begin to spin towards marketing :(

[mawali]

Reputation is the only real criteria of a Master so Yip Man stands on that, where, the more famous did not have it or they tried to buy it but they could not!
Even if Yip Man was terrible or didn't learn much or he was "too simple' or he was not anointed, appointed etc., his reputation and skill stands as it is because he taught what he promised or he had more satisfied students who lived the lineage as opposed to just basking in the lineage of the past masters!

I passed through HK in the mid 80's and the Yip Man name was well known.
It is bogus to say that However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, when the reality is that someone who didn't learn anything (i.e. wing chun) can readily defeat most practitioners of the same style, possess integrity and still be considered possessing no skill, according to his detractors. It seems that the non student exceeded the masters! Seems like sour grapes to me. Isn't there a famous saying alluding to the fact that that is the goal of the student, to wit, to exceed the skill of the master!

One of my taijiquan teachers studied a while with Yap Man and even produced a book about 40 years ago with him, and according to him (as I remember) Yip Man was forthcoming with all studnets and exhorted them to study and practice hard.
No secrets, no BS and no kowtow!

[dfl]

Yip Man's been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan's been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the "truth" about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one's teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one's own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man's own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of "I can take the 'old man'". Instead one hears "the 'old man' had a heavy punch". This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man's students (aka "grandmasters") is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

[Vajramusti]

Good post. Sifting old tea leaves doesn't improve one's wing chun or point to further development of the art.

Searching for or keeping a good teacher plus analysis practice and experience surely is a better way..

joy chaudhuri

[clam61]

Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

[Vajramusti]

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very likely not IMO.... specially in his fighting days. But best not to extend the thread on that point.
.. nothing gained by that line of discussion- and it wasn't dfl's central point anyway.
Those of his students like Ho Kam Ming who spent quality time in developing structural strength and dynamics are also likely to be hard to take down-for a variety of reasons including structure,
footwork, stance/dynamics and appropriate timing... but I don't care to argue that point.
Nothing gained. Ip Man is gone.


joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yip Man's been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan's been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the "truth" about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one's teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one's own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man's own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of "I can take the 'old man'". Instead one hears "the 'old man' had a heavy punch". This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man's students (aka "grandmasters") is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

Great post, thats why I seeked mainland china to find the evidence of Leung Bik's existence- and found it written on their goverment websites in Kulo Heshan. From there we can try to understand what Master Hawkins Cheung, Chu Shong Tin, Bruce Lee, Kenneth Chung, Leung Sheung, Peter Yang, Yip Chun said about Yip Man's art- that it was soft and internal- to be sung, relaxed and use just enough energy. To use Nim Tao. To have the structure of head/spine held vertically by the baihui, pelvic tilt, chest soft, back round, elbows in pointing down.
What did Leung Bik teach Ip Man that was different from Chan Wah Shun lineage, Ng Chung So and Chan Yu Ming? How do we cultivate this art?
That will lay foundations for what his art should be- to always strive to improve.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Great post, thats why I seeked mainland china to find the evidence of Leung Bik's existence- and found it written on their goverment websites in Kulo Heshan.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik.

*

Be careful with the info you find in Kulo "public" archives. Most of what is written about other lineages was what they heard and not first hand knowledge. Many of the Kulo government officials are "Lao's". The Lao's are the "second" biggest clan in Kulo. Fung family being the largest and gatekeepers. The Lao's learned their WC from the Fung's. Most of them trained under my Sigung, Fung Ju, when he returned to Hoksan.

Also, the 22 Point methods was developed by FUNG LIM (wong wah sam student) and not Master Leung Jan. Fung Lim taught it to his son in law who passed the art on to others. Fung Lim's son, Fung Sang, and family practice the Pin Sun 12 Fists art.


Caveat Emptor!


Hope this helps!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Be careful with ALL of this...since it seems that nobody's word can be trusted fully when it comes to Chinese martial arts history.


The only thing that CAN be trusted about Chinese martial arts in general and wing chun in particular is what you SEE and DO firsthand.

Does it work?
Is it fight-efficient?
What fighting answers does it have?
What answers is it missing?


Etc…………

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best any teacher can do is point the way or try to put you on the right path, YOUR path, in that regard, it really isn't about HOW much a teacher knows but how well he can help you find your path.

[Shadow_warrior8]

UltimateWC,
Nice points, agreed.....

Interesting point Jim, I didnt know that about the Laos versus the Fungs.

I was sent this by a practitioner in Kulo village, is this the full syllables of Kulo?

梁赞嫡传的古劳咏春派功夫体系有：
拳：一偏一正看家拳、十字四门拳等。
棍：单头棍三点半棍、双头棍（秘传双头棍）。
掌功：红砂掌（吕树、梁大妹习得）
铁指功：十二时辰点穴法（　梁大妹习得）
气功：十段锦（梁婵传下）
其它兵器：皱纱带（梁婵传下）、单刀（林兵）、轻功（林兵习得）、双刀（阴阳二字夺命刀）。还有跌打正骨医 术。

But he claims this is another branch in Kulo

隐秘的古劳咏春，以提供有缘人去学习和修习，其公开明码实价教授的内容有：
一套拳（十二式半的散手）、
二套拳（击手又名古劳咏春寻桥）36法、
三套拳（古劳咏春标指）。
不公开传授的还有第四套拳：侧身咏春。

This is interesting because he states he has 12 1/2 san sik, Kulo Chum Kil 36 Fatt, Kulo Bil Jee and the fourth set which is not taught openly, Pien Sang Wingchun.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

E-mail me and we can chat more!

The Fung's & Lao's are related and all friends.

:)

[taichi4eva]

I know this is off-topic, but I can't get my browser to read Chinese. Most of the characters do show up, but then on others there are little squares with four numbers in them.

Could anyone translate Shadow_warrior8's text? My Chinese is paltry at best. THanks in advance!

[clam61]

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

[Vajramusti]

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In many things specially internet kung fu discussions there can be multiple opinions on practically any subject. From what you have said in the past and what you seem to be learning the issue may not be important and in a way if one learns good wing chun it doesn't matter-unless one picks up the gosh awful marshland subject of wing chun history.
Ip man's wing chun in some ways is quite unique. He said , told his sons and some of his close students that he learned from Leung Bik when IM went to HK the first time. He didnt say that ona sign in front of his school and didn't take out an ad to that effect to the best of my knowledge and non one that I know of questioned him on that when IM was alive.Per the tradition of that time he listed his first teacher as his sifu, but he learned from others.
But some folks are skeptical. You can have any take on wing chun history that you want- it comes in 57 flavors. Shoot even now there are mysteries about who learned what from whom and for how long. You takes your pick in the history cafeteria.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie.

Rubbish. He's rolled with Carlos Snr, Rolls and Carlson in the Big Octagon In The Sky. Right now he's cornering WSL in his match with the recently arrived Helio.

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

Good point. Takedowns and submissions are much more difficult when your opponent consists entirely of ectoplasm. OTOH, chain punching doesn't work all that well either.

No offence meant to the Gracies. Some of this conjecture, OTOH, deserves nothing but ridicule.

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

He's a pivotal figure in the "histories" of many YM lineages, as the elder son of Leung Jan. Willam Cheung's history, as just one example, loses (a lot more) credibility if it can be proved he did not exist.

However evidince for his existence is highly tenuous ... though the OP appears to have found osmething concrete in that regard.

As Joy said, WC history is a smorgasbord, and you and many (most?) others seem to have picked the bits that best fit the way they'd like things to be.

[chusauli]

Yip Man was great, and he was human. Chinese say Yin Shui Si Yuan - "drinking water, think of the source". He is honored for his teachings.

Personally, I think it is important we investigate what other students of Yip Man taught and discuss them. They are all part of a puzzle.

Whether or not he learned from Leung Bik is irrelevent; he learned and taught and we have what he passed down. That is enough.

Yuen Kay Shan was also great. I honor him as a great contributor and preserver of WCK. Too little is known about him here. Sum Nung did a great job in his time teaching and preserving the art in China.

Yiu Choi, who studied with Yuen Chai Wan and later Ng Jung So, can give us a missing link and glimpse of what was passed down to present, but his system has its unique features.

All of our ancestors, we can respect.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path. Masters like 90 years old Gwok Fu lived to tell their tales and his own.

But its all just for bedtime stories, something to fall asleep to after a hard day of wingchun training.

[LoneTiger108]

The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path.

Interesting point about people translating 'who want to see the other side of the coin'. This is happening more and more these days. Westerners trying to learn the dialect of their teacher/s.

Its been a while since I read any mention of Yiu Choi. The best source of info on Yiu Choi in the UK is Sifu Wai Po Tang http://www.martialartinstitute.com/ where he also mentions Yiu Kil (?)

Whatever, or wherever you come from, people can only really learn to appreciate what they have if we all learn how to share! Unfortunately for most westerners (non-chinese readers) we still have a very long way to go, as we may never fully understand what was taught if we can't understand the language that was used to teach.

All of our ancestors, we can respect.

I would hope so Chu Sifu.

Not to sound like the Orange mobile ad, but we are all part of everyone as everyone is part of us.

For anyone who has never seen this clip, it's an entire unedited piece of Ip Man performing the 108 MYJ. I only ever saw this once during the opening of the Tong in Foshan.

Respect aside, how did this end up on Youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

[Vajramusti]

You can tell that Ip man was quite old and ill in that dummy video. There is some hesitation here and there.
But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!! He apparently kicked a lot in earlier years.In Ip Ching's little book on his father he mentions how when Ip man bent over to get a newspaper at a restaurant, a thief tried to lift something from him and Ip Man shot out a rear kick and the thisf went flying backwards.

From time to time apparently Ip Ching has objected to stuff being out on U tube- but things do get by. I have seen that clip several times before.

A real curiosity :when will a well known wing chun business man release the oictures that wer made when Ip Man was giving sime lessons for the Hing Kong police.It will probably come out when the price is right.

joy chaudhuri

[bakxierboxer]

You can tell that Ip man was quite old and ill in that dummy video. There is some hesitation here and there.
But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!!


Age and illness aside, his skill was still readily apparent.
I saw a lot of "give-aways" in evidence.

I also have a suspicion that some of the "hesitation" you mentioned had something to do with a "dislike" for that particular dummy....... appeared to complain about the position of the upper arms?

[hunt1]

Joy I was told Leung Ting bought those movies and pictures years ago.

[Vajramusti]

bakxierboxer: I am unsure about the real reason for the stoppages in doing the mok jong

hunt 1: yes I heard about that. He bought it apparently from an ex HK police person .
He showed some of it to a convention of his students in LA several years ago-probably will release them when the price is right.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

I also have a suspicion that some of the "hesitation" you mentioned had something to do with a "dislike" for that particular dummy....... appeared to complain about the position of the upper arms?

I hadn't heard that one before. :confused:

My belief is that, after all the changes and modifications and the natural ageing process Ip Man just simply 'forgot' what he was doing at various points. Not forgetting that this was (apparently) just some test footage that was never supposed to see the light of day let alone be available for everyone in the world to see! Unrehearsed, but still 'completed'.

Anyone know the name of the camera person?

But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!!

Exactly my point. There is a precision there, even in his steps.

It's strange for me as I recently took up my old book from Uncle Joseph Cheng and it fits neatly with the Ip Man clip.

Out of interest, how does everybody explain the number of sets? How many? What are the general terms? Do other families use the same format?

[Vajramusti]

Lone Tiger-
Speculation. We don't know exactly who was there or who took the film besides Ip man's presence in the picture.. Could be Ip Chin. But Ip Chin would know. Ip Man turns to the the observer several times. Not necessarily forgetting things.
There are many possible motions on the dummy depending on whether one is passing on or practicing a form or whether one is working on applications and combinations. Ip Man himself tinkered with sections of the form at different times.
After looking at his student or observer. he may have decided which sequence of his form he was going to do or show to that observer.. He was not doing a performance for u tube or the u tube generation..

Joseph Cheng's dummy book is different in the details. I have it- misplaced- somewhere. A friend of mine learned from Cheng.

joy chaudhuri

[clam61]

this reminds me of another thread in this forum where people had questions about sum neng and yip man...about the 'rift' between them.

this is what i heard. you can believe it or not.


there was some question about whether there was a rift and what it was about.

there was a rift. it was about yuen kay san.

yip man and sum nung knew each other in canton and were good aquaintances/friends.

yip man was taught a few things from yuen kay san for a few months (Yip Man already knew WC). when yip man was in HK he used YKS' to bolster his credibility, except he said that he taught YKS. it finally got back to YKS later that YM claimed this. YKS basically told his student, Sum Nung to kick yip man's ass. Sum Nung followed his teachers wishes and challenged YM to a fight in private.

YM went in with his famous pak sau and Sum Nung neutralized it and in the end, he ended the fight with a choke on YM. YM said he gave up. that ended it.

Sum Nung liked to keep a low profile and so did YKS so the match was kept private. The 'beef' was squashed at that point.

Chinese say, one day as a Sifu, one life time as a father
And to honour the Sifu, the way, ancestors

These years I have heard many stories on Yip Man, whose decision to teach wingchun in Hongkong, and to Bruce Lee, is the reason why many even know of wingchun in the western World. However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, Someone sent his student to beat up Yip man, He was taught the wrong forms, He wasnt a good teacher etc. He lied about Leung Bik, the elder son of Leung Jan whose only student was Yip Man, which explains the difference in simplicity and internal elements different from Chan Wah Shun Lineage

Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee's father, Dim Mak etc....
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=snap&act=fetchHtmlsnap&m=b18b844601a6b34e0b7cbf8c36f946c1&surl=http%3A%2F%2F1293633.qzone.qq.com%2Fblog%2F12 28575809&kw=%D5%E2%BE%CD%CA%C7%C8%EE%C6%E6%C9%BD%D3%BD%B4%B A
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=16&id=1265345&star=1&page=1

While I take somethings with a pinch of salt(I am just biased), but then again I wasnt there. I didnt sit in the same space as Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Gwok Fu, the greats of Wingchun. He was there, trained, talked, had tea with them.
Rumours and stories from people present about people passed. Nothing can be verified. Master Gwok Fu who describes Master Yuen Kay San's art as Fast and Ruthless, said he matched him in Gor Sao. Someone said Master Yuen Kay San also learnt from Ng Chun So, but then again I wasnt there, and I might not believe, or want to believe what this Great Man said- yeah its silly, I know. Everything I have seen of Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung in China- where he is recognised and honoured as the most Traditional of Wingchun, from Sum Nung's students, sifus is mindblowing impressive! Anyone has a time machine?

By all current China records, Yiu Choi, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were legends in Guangzhou-the 3 heros, even before Yip Man went to hongkong. They were seen together often, training together, even overlooking each other students. So the rumour something is missing in Yip Man, he didnt learn everything, students beat up an elder, presumes the masters didnt exchange, werent close. This would not make sense. They definately exchanged their arts, points, concepts. If your training buddy had a technique, theory you didnt have, you would either try to learn it right? One thing is for sure, they had great respect for each other and were amiable together, as the whole provice had for 3 of them.

In China, they still think the world of Yip Man, hence the chinese goverment build Yip man Tong, ironically, Yip Man became world wide famous in hongkong.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik. The Chinese goverment even detailed how many sons he had, and that they went to vietnam to teach. Also Sifu Garry recently posted 3 documents archived in Yip Man Tong, that Yip man said, Leung Bik handed to him.

http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/11/20081112112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/06/20080618175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003/08/20030814102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008/01/20080110111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm

The confirmation of Leung Bik explains to me, why Leung Sheung's art is soft, relaxed and powerful, like a women's art, as taught by Kenneth Chung, and described by my Sigung Peter Yang- that Leung Sheung taught him a internal soft art. Why Sigung Yip Chun always says to relaxed, to be sung, to use just enough energy. Why Master Hawkins and Bruce Lee said, Yip Man controlled them gently on their feet, in chi sao, with very slight movement or no movement, versus the more. In internal arts, a little energy is all it takes. From big movement to small movement, from small movement to no movement. According to Master Wang Xiang Zhai, that is the real movement

We chinese say, the tree that is big catches alot of wind. This is what I think of the rumours and stories of Yip man. In the latest Yip Man Movie, where in china, they are buzzing about, a scene says, Chinese lost of face is a No-No. Even if what is said is true, chinese loss of face is a No-No.

So I hope this will help those who are seeking to rubbish the name of Yip Man, now see there is another side of the coin, not found on youtube or english language. There is nothing missing from Yip Man Lineage. He did seek to simplify the art(as said by Master Yip Chun), for mass teaching maybe or maybe he wanted to follow in his Sigung's footsteps, Leung Jan, to present the essense of Wingchun
I have realised that most concepts are not repeated in Yip Man forms- hence only those loyal will learn everything, e.g chou dai choi in kulo, or taap choi in yahu- it is presented in Wooden Dummy. I just didnt know the name it was called in other lineages.

Here are my sharings on my ongoing project into Mainland China's Martial Arts. Of course we tend to believe who and what we want to believe
So I humbly present my small research project as a tribute to Legendary Yip Man.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yeah I heard that one, and I know where it comes from, and there is so much more in terms of "rumours" of conflict. I was told Ip Man was smashed with a Poi Pai Jeung in that fight you mentioned. Haha...
Not to take anything away from the people who started, spreading it.
I like these people.....and I know that they believe the person who told them....
But its history which cannot be verified- no video camera back in the day, no youtube. I personally dont believe it, and I have no sifus I talked to who has verified being there or heard it in the Hongkong lineage. It sounds more like My sifu is better than your Sifu kinda story. And yeah everyone wants to hear that their sigung, sifu is top brass.

Here is a mainland chinese posting on Yuen Kay San and their family/ lineage is huge over there.

蛇形永春内功拳阮济云在安南所传出—蛇形永春，永春内功拳。
阮奇山之兄长，追随师父郭保全（蛇形）(老洪拳五形之一)，冯小青（红船永春，当时年届七十） 等。
套路除部分蛇形拳路、红船永春拳路外，还有小练头，并无寻桥及标指之套路。

广州咏春拳亦称阮奇山咏春拳。
阮奇山先后追随师父郭保全（蛇形），冯小青（永春，当时年届七十），最后（后於叶问）追随吴仲 素。
套路有：蛇形拳路，红船永春拳路，小练头，加上了由吴仲素处学来之寻桥及标指之套路

Here's the translation,
Snake style internal wingchun was passed by Yuen Chai Wan.
Yuen Chai Wan learnt Snake Style- part of 5 elements Old Hung Kuen from Fok Bo Chuen. From 70 years old Fung Siu Ching, he learnt Red Boat Wengchun
Yuen Chai Wan's sets is divided into Snake Style portion of Wingchun, Red Boat Wingchun, there is Shil Lim Tao, but no Chum Kil or Bil Jee(as seen in Vietnam Wingchun, there is none)

Guangzhou Wingchun Yuen Kay San Wingchun
Yuen Kay San learnt from Sifu Fok Bo Chuen- Snake Style Wingchun, from 70 years old Fung Siu Ching- Weng chun, and learnt from Ng Chun So. The sets included Snake Style Wingchun, Red Boat Weng Chun, Shil Lim Tao, and the Chum Kil and Bil Jee, learnt from Ng Chun So after Ip Man(left???).
On the chinese posting above from China- it differs from what is said in the western world on YKS/Sum Nung about Ng Chun So(not to take anything away from this great Master) and I respect and trust the people who posted in the West.

Having talked and learnt from old Sifus alive today talking about their old masters, this kind of "thing" doesnt happen, because it doesnt go down well with Martial Code or the culture of the day. Even today, sending my student to challenge my best friend would be "hmmmm". The chinese loss of face is No-No, so that would have reaped huge reprecussions.
I have too much respect for the legendary Yuen Kay San, Sum Nung and Yip Man to believe any conflict would have warrented such actions.
They would have probably tag teamed to defend against/challenge the japanese occupation of that time, for calling them sick men of asia- Heros forged in times of need, oppression.

Can tell you are loyal to the Sum Nung/YKS camp, and its great. But when it comes down to, legend and stories e.g Master Gwok Fu's stories about him and Master Yuen. Even though he is the last link(if not the last) for Master Yuen, Master Yip and himself. He was there, in china all these years. Still the story is at best his version and it cant be verified what is what, so I take the stand, they were great people, legends for skills and conduct- PERIOD!!! That can be verified because there is documentation

[Vajramusti]

Nonsense!!!

[omarthefish]

The best any teacher can do is point the way or try to put you on the right path, YOUR path, in that regard, it really isn't about HOW much a teacher knows but how well he can help you find your path.

Story about Milton Erikson.

When asked how therapy works Milton Erikson once told this story:

So one day he found this horse grazing in his yard and wonders who it belongs to. He saddles up the horse and heads down the road not really guiding it anywhere. Every once in a while the horse wanders off the road to munch on some daisies or something and he pulls the reigns and sets it back on the road but other than that he gives it no direction. Eventually the horse wanders into this farm and a guy steps out and says, "Wow! You brought my horse back. How did you know it was mine?"

Erikson says, "I didn't really. You just keep putting the horse back on the road and eventually it finds it's way home."

[LSWCTN1]

some random thoughts regarding this

am i correct in thinking that the Kwok Fu you talk of is Ip Mans Fatsan student?

if so, would he really have been there to witness Ip Man practising/training with his peers?

if he was there, would he have been brought there if Ip Man was not an equal of both YKS and Yui Choi?

if Kwok Fu could handle YKS's gor sau, and IM was KF's sifu - why would YKS send his student to beat up the man who taught someone that YKS couldnt completely handle?

according to Yui Choi's son, Yui Choi had a hand in teaching Ip Man - as Yui Choi was his sihing under Ng Chun So. very probable that they practised together privately

Yui Choi first learnt under Yuen Chai Wan so YKS would have been a sibak to him, in those traditional times would YKS have practised together with him, no matter how close YKS and Ip Man were?

does Yui Choi system have luk sao? i ask because it was supposedly developed by IM and YKS together, so if YC was there he would surely have it, no?

in all honesty these were all greats and i dont think anyone will ever completely agree on everything regarding the collective histories, what is important is that we enjoy the art that we are lucky enough to have passed down to us

gotta run!

[Shadow_warrior8]

some random thoughts regarding this

am i correct in thinking that the Kwok Fu you talk of is Ip Mans Fatsan student?

if so, would he really have been there to witness Ip Man practising/training with his peers?

if he was there, would he have been brought there if Ip Man was not an equal of both YKS and Yui Choi?

if Kwok Fu could handle YKS's gor sau, and IM was KF's sifu - why would YKS send his student to beat up the man who taught someone that YKS couldnt completely handle?

according to Yui Choi's son, Yui Choi had a hand in teaching Ip Man - as Yui Choi was his sihing under Ng Chun So. very probable that they practised together privately

Yui Choi first learnt under Yuen Chai Wan so YKS would have been a sibak to him, in those traditional times would YKS have practised together with him, no matter how close YKS and Ip Man were?

does Yui Choi system have luk sao? i ask because it was supposedly developed by IM and YKS together, so if YC was there he would surely have it, no?

in all honesty these were all greats and i dont think anyone will ever completely agree on everything regarding the collective histories, what is important is that we enjoy the art that we are lucky enough to have passed down to us

gotta run!

You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.

No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.

Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.

Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)

All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them. :)

History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha.....no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there's where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Now on to some interesting videos that are relaxing....
Donnie Yen as Ip Man

甄子丹"葉問"專訪(上) Ip Man: Interview with Donnie Yen part 1, 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciJR2AhN2FY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4zThOFUH1o

洪金寶"葉問"專訪 Ip Man: Interview with Sammo Hung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC4tTjhXdeo

Donnie at Taiwan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eebCg8mBI

Donnie Yen (甄子丹) on Ip Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y67D9I5MRqg

[clam61]

yes i know everything is unverifiable.

however i would disagree that challenge matches not happening. your talk about loss of face is precisely why these things happened. besides, its not like YKS told SN to go cripple or kill YM. just to beat him in a sparring match. just sparring.

i dont know who you think i heard this from. i heard this from sum nung many years ago

i prefaced my story with "you dont have to believe it" or someting to that affect. im not pushing it. just saying what i heard.

Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man

i have no idea who ng chun so is...but could be. like u said. they probably talked and knew of each other. maybe they gave each other pointers. but i htink the point is that in the story (that i heard at least i know others instantly dont believe anything i said) yip man said that he taught YKS a lot...as in YKS was his sidai and below him in skill etc. that he "taught YKS everything he knows"--that sort of deal. perhaps he didnt at all...but back then it was all word of mouth so it probably got back to Canton from HK like a game of telephone and YKS got ****ed!

YKS had some pride...after all that is why Sum Nung named it YKS Wing Chun after his dying teacher expressed concern that he would be forgotten in the world of Wing CHun

again i dont really care. im just repeating what i heard.

Yeah I heard that one, and I know where it comes from, and there is so much more in terms of "rumours" of conflict. I was told Ip Man was smashed with a Poi Pai Jeung in that fight you mentioned. Haha...
Not to take anything away from the people who started, spreading it.
I like these people.....and I know that they believe the person who told them....
But its history which cannot be verified- no video camera back in the day, no youtube. I personally dont believe it, and I have no sifus I talked to who has verified being there or heard it in the Hongkong lineage. It sounds more like My sifu is better than your Sifu kinda story. And yeah everyone wants to hear that their sigung, sifu is top brass.

Here is a mainland chinese posting on Yuen Kay San and their family/ lineage is huge over there.

蛇形永春内功拳阮济云在安南所传出—蛇形永春，永春内功拳。
阮奇山之兄长，追随师父郭保全（蛇形）(老洪拳五形之一)，冯小青（红船永春，当时年届七十） 等。
套路除部分蛇形拳路、红船永春拳路外，还有小练头，并无寻桥及标指之套路。

广州咏春拳亦称阮奇山咏春拳。
阮奇山先后追随师父郭保全（蛇形），冯小青（永春，当时年届七十），最后（后於叶问）追随吴仲 素。
套路有：蛇形拳路，红船永春拳路，小练头，加上了由吴仲素处学来之寻桥及标指之套路

Here's the translation,
Snake style internal wingchun was passed by Yuen Chai Wan.
Yuen Chai Wan learnt Snake Style- part of 5 elements Old Hung Kuen from Fok Bo Chuen. From 70 years old Fung Siu Ching, he learnt Red Boat Wengchun
Yuen Chai Wan's sets is divided into Snake Style portion of Wingchun, Red Boat Wingchun, there is Shil Lim Tao, but no Chum Kil or Bil Jee(as seen in Vietnam Wingchun, there is none)

Guangzhou Wingchun Yuen Kay San Wingchun
Yuen Kay San learnt from Sifu Fok Bo Chuen- Snake Style Wingchun, from 70 years old Fung Siu Ching- Weng chun, and learnt from Ng Chun So. The sets included Snake Style Wingchun, Red Boat Weng Chun, Shil Lim Tao, and the Chum Kil and Bil Jee, learnt from Ng Chun So after Ip Man(left???).
On the chinese posting above from China- it differs from what is said in the western world on YKS/Sum Nung about Ng Chun So(not to take anything away from this great Master) and I respect and trust the people who posted in the West.

Having talked and learnt from old Sifus alive today talking about their old masters, this kind of "thing" doesnt happen, because it doesnt go down well with Martial Code or the culture of the day. Even today, sending my student to challenge my best friend would be "hmmmm". The chinese loss of face is No-No, so that would have reaped huge reprecussions.
I have too much respect for the legendary Yuen Kay San, Sum Nung and Yip Man to believe any conflict would have warrented such actions.
They would have probably tag teamed to defend against/challenge the japanese occupation of that time, for calling them sick men of asia- Heros forged in times of need, oppression.

Can tell you are loyal to the Sum Nung/YKS camp, and its great. But when it comes down to, legend and stories e.g Master Gwok Fu's stories about him and Master Yuen. Even though he is the last link(if not the last) for Master Yuen, Master Yip and himself. He was there, in china all these years. Still the story is at best his version and it cant be verified what is what, so I take the stand, they were great people, legends for skills and conduct- PERIOD!!! That can be verified because there is documentation

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yes that is a fair post, Who beat who, who lost to who, these kind of stories dont honour them, or wingchun since we cant verify.
and I think the best way to remember these Giants of Wingchun is by honouring them.

I have not heard of stories that Ip Man said alot, in fact, some say they wish he talked more about wingchun, talked more, clearer in explanations. My sigung said his father, tend to talk about other things, often not wingchun. Like him, Sigung Ip chun doesnt talk about wingchun much, away from the training gym. But having said that, maybe he did have a pint too much and he talked about something he shouldnt. Hahahahaha...sorry Yip man, didnt mean it. Just joking.....

[reneritchie]

FWIW, What Sum Nung told me:

After Yip Man went to HK, word filtered back to Fatshan that he (Yip Man) was being marketed as the only WCK sifu, and the sole holder of the art. This upset the other WCK people in Fatshan, so when Sum Nung was invited to teach a class in HK, they asked him to see Yip Man and find out what was happening.

Sum Nung and Yip Man went out to dinner, and Yip Man basically said it was some of his students being overly enthusiastic about the marketing, and he would set the record straight.

Yip Man also told Sum Nung he should stay in HK, because the border might get shut down. Sum Nung didn't want to leave his family, however, so went back for them and -- sure enough -- the Chinese border was closed and the West was cut off from all the WCK in mainland China.

[clam61]

and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

jk

[chusauli]

It makes people excited to think that a chokehold was involved. I think we got a few bored people.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=clam61;917742]and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't have to be silly to praise Sum Nung. You detract from your effort.

Joy Chaudhuri

[clam61]

[QUOTE=clam61;917742]and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't have to be silly to praise Sum Nung. You detract from your effort.

Joy Chaudhuri

not praising. making light of the situation.

[Vajramusti]

not praising. making light of the situation.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the explanation. I have no problem.

joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

Just wanted to share something that makes all this who and who, who is better than who stories seem so small
Personal cultivation, that is the hard part.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090226/img/pwl-the-feet-of-monk-hua-ch-6935a70e49a8.html

Ageing monk's devotion leaves deep mark on temple

Dawn has yet to break over a small temple in a Tibetan region of western China, but monk Hua Chi is already finishing an arduous daily ritual that has left its mark on both the man and the shrine. Skip related content

Hua, also a doctor of traditional medicine who believes he is about 70 years old, has been performing a strict daily ritual at this temple in the monastery town of Tongren, in Qinghai province, for nearly 20 years.

He has knelt in prayer so many times that his footprints remain deeply, perfectly ingrained on the temple's wooden floor.

Every day before sunrise, he arrives at the temple steps, places his feet in his footprints and bends down to pray a few thousand times before walking around the temple.

The footprints are three centimeters (1.2 inches) deep where the balls of his feet have pressed into the wood.

But the years are beginning to make their own mark on his body.

"During the first years I would pray 2,000 to 3,000 times a day. But I have grown older, so in recent years I have only done around 1,000 each day," he said, adding sheepishly that he could sometimes only manage around 500 in the cold of winter.

The ritual started with no specific aim, but with time it has turned into a project of self-salvation, said Hua, who hopes his dedication will be noticed and guarantee his soul a smooth transition to the afterlife.

According to Tibetan Buddhism, following death, the spirit goes through a three-stage process which determines whether it enters nirvana or returns for rebirth in one of the six realms of existence -- hell, human, animal, hungry ghost, demi-god or god.

Hua says he is getting closer to his goal.

"I reconstructed this temple and have prayed and walked around the temple all these times so that after my death my spirit will not suffer," he said.

Hua's devotion has not gone unnoticed by younger monks at the temple, which lies within the Rongwo Gonchen Gompa, Tongren's main Tibetan monastery.

The monastery, which dates from 1301, is home to hundreds of youngsters studying Buddhist scriptures.

Twenty-nine-year-old Genden Darji says he spent many days admiring Hua's efforts before finding the courage to step into his footprints.

As he carefully repeats Hua's movements, the young monk says he plans to carry on the ritual when the older monk stops.

"Every day I come here and every day I look at the piece of wood, and it has inspired me to continue to make the footprints myself," he said.

(Writing by Hanna Rantala; Editing by Ian Ransom and Miral Fahmy)

This peaceful and respecful story would be how I envisioned the meeting of Sum Nung and Yip Man to be, Junior to Senior, pretty much like how Rene described it to be.

[LSWCTN1]

You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.

No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.

Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.

Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)

All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them. :)

History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha.....no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there's where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.

i wasnt attempting to make any 'wrong or right' posts, more just airing my thoughts - some of my questions would have contradicted each other had i have meant them in an 'i'm right' sense.

sorry for any confusion

the post you made initially is very thought provoking if you are interested in the history of wck, i have many more thoughts on it but none that require an answer, so i wont take up extra bandwidth!

all the best

[Shadow_warrior8]

No worries, just air your thoughts.
Like I said in another post, I was trying to present some material not known or unheard of in the western world. Its no secret, its just not translated, in english

In fact I had my thoughts about the interview, and was intially shocked, because he listed Bruce Lee's father was a robber, kidnapper and Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung tried to blackmail Yip Man into teaching them the wooden dummy otherwise they would quit, and Yip Man said- So quit.....

This old master was really bringing up some controversial stuff that would rock the very basis of Hongkong Wingchun, since we have great reverance for those people he mentioned. Hahaha...this granddaddy rocks.....:D

Me thinks its all just bedtime story stuff. And since everyone likes to hear who beat up who, who did who in, its just Martial Arts Entertainment Tonight.