wah lum as preformance art

[jutsow]

as a member of wah lum i am becoming incresingly distraught over seeing forms being altered or changed outright at tournaments and demos. On our kung fu alter it says "RESPECT MATERIAL BEING TAUGHT". It seems to me that altering or adding to forms is about as disrespectfull as it gets. Am i the only one who feels this way?

[danny from miami]

well..do they only change them for tournaments and demos? or just to change them and leave them that way?

[jutsow]

does it matter if they only do it at the tournaments? Either way it still seems disrespectfull to me.If they want to do splits and 50 butterfly and hurricane kicks in thier forms they should have taken up modern wushu.when they do it the way they do now what are you left with? It doesn't look as good as wushu,plus the form loosses it meaning.Please don't take this the wrong way.I'm not saying everyone is doing this, but enough are were i feel it's starting to become a problem.

[This message was edited by birdstail on 12-12-00 at 08:52 PM.]

[danny from miami]

hmmm, youre right

[obiwan]

Unfortunately, this is what has happened to most martial arts.

You start off with a good one. Then you get students who didnt learn it properly, "learnt" the applications on their own.

Thus abandoned some important techniques they didnt know how to use and added extras they use because they are deficient in other areas.

It it actually not common where systems diverge for the better. We all know how many off shoots there are. The forms altering is a reflection of these off shoots.

There are so many derivitives of so many different types of kung fu, but the ultimate test is time. If it doesnt work, eventually it will get snubbed out.

Unfortunately/fortunately, our times are much safer so most martial arts dont get put to the real test. So during these times of relative peace, we become insulated from realities of combat. (Most people, not all!) and so many bad shoot offs arise.

Besides, what could you do to stop this? This is no centralised world martial arts organisation to report them too. Even within famous martial arts, there are so many bodies claiming to be the "legit" head school or orgo.
So there's not much we can do legally. Just train hard at what you know is correct. Then when it comes to it, you and your school can fight and teach the knowledge to others.

If more people know the correct version, then EVENTUALLY I hope, the bad ones will get weeded out.

I do agree, some of these dodgy schools give the rest of us a bad name.

(Eg, school near my home called "Shaolin Su". After confronting the sifu, he admitted that he taught mostly karate and kickboxing with some kung fu forms chucked in. He said he would change the name. That was 5 years ago. It is still a popular school. I sparred with one of their students. Couldnt fight for crud.)

Many good teachers are in hiding even to this day too.

train hard i guess

The Force will be with you...always

[Shaolin Master]

Obiwan,
Yes I think you mean Keith Blackburn's school quite funny. I was talking to Paul about it as well he exclaimed the teaching of 'James bond like techniques'....hehehe
He is a nice individual but no way a true teacher of traditional martial arts...poor soul. Suffice to say that he students are inevitably worse off.

ANYWAY,
Regarding the Issue....There are many occassions where we purposefully modify forms for tournaments not for asthetic appeal as much as to fool the hooligans who attempt to copy things and try to sell them off as there own at a poor level mind you...so when they perform using added movements one knows the source of their knowledge...Hehehe

Shi Chan Long

[MiamiMantis]

I believe all Wah Lum forms are copyrighted for protection. The forms are changed so Joe Blow with a video camera doesn't learn forms the wrong way. I have seen it with my own eyes. A couple of years ago a guy came to our school from a "21 blender style of karate", and wanted to take Wah Lum. He wanted to see a form so I showed him First form. Believe it or not he says to me " I know that form, it's a part of our system, where did YOU get it from?. I asked him to show his form to me and it was first form heavily modified. After I explained that First form came from Wah Lum he never came back. (Probally was embarrased). So that's why forms are changed, so Sifu Rewind the VCR, won't become a Wah Lum instructor. :D :D :D :D

[7kicks]

MiamiMantis has it right. The forms are intentionally changed so that if some smuck videos it he won't be getting the true or complete form and try to teach at some chop suey school as wah lum.

[woliveri]

Wah Lum forms are NOT copyrighted. The only thing
that is copyrighted is the Wah Lum name.

bill

Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East
By Baird T. Spalding

[Fu Manchu]

It's no good that the instructor purposely modifies the forms on video and try to flog it of as the real deal. Afterall, the purchaser of the video has paid good money for it. If he thinks that the forms are priceless then don't see it or even pretend to sell it or charge a higher price.

Ultimately, the instructor will be hurting his own name and the Wah Nam brand of Mantis.

Like other professions (eg. doctors, accountants), there should be a level of professional conduct as it would improve the quality control of what is being taught. it is only the phoney and the dishonest who has to fear!!

[MiamiMantis]

I didn't say the forms are modified on video...I said they are modified so they cannot be videoed and then taught from the tape. To the best of my knowledge they are no Wah Lum forms on video for teaching, only the books. :D :D

[Brad]

My very first teacher...Well,not really "teacher" since he never taught me anything :D ...ok the "head" of my first school used to videotape forms at tournements and then try to pass them off as his own. He also did this from going to siminars. One of the forms he had taken was a Wah Lum form, I think. Fatal Flute. So it does happen, probably more than anyone realizes. It all came crashing down on his head though, since he was way to public.

[iamaloser]

Tournaments, competitions, performances, etc. are just that...performances. It is kind of sad that we are seeing less and less of the "real" art but to gain new students or interest in the arts, these performances must be (and have been) done. Really good schools differentiate real vs. performances during training so the potential for loss is at a minimum. After all, how many times have you seen chi kung displays but when you actually train at the school, it takes years of practice to get to the level you've seen?

[BeiTangLang]

You guys are kidding right?? That means that none of you have the real form?? or does it mean you are right right now? It changes tomorrow so you don't know the system all over again? Does the material in the forms cycle once every 5 years? How do you know if your form is for real if it always changes?? If I have misunderstood you, then I appologize up-front; But if I do understand you, I then really _do not_ understand your motives.
The simple fact that watchers of videos will not get the applications to the forms should be enough for instructors to not mind putting them _correctly_ on video. There are subtlties that you will not get from a book or video anyway.
Selling video is another question as well. If someone makes a video & deliberatly shows impropper/lack of/extra movements, then they are frauds & should be totaly dishonored by their lie.
Some respect for ones ancestors.....
Just some wandering thoughts;
-BT

"In another time, we shall meet. But not today."

[danny from miami]

dude, heres the thing, its really simple - at TOURNAMENTS and DEMOS,Wah Lum forms are changed so no one else can video tape the real form, try to learn it, and teach it. thats all.

[HKMantis]

Does Wah Lum have a complementary form for each form taught or are there only certian forms that are allowed to be performed? Also if each set has a performance equalivant then are the differences subtle such as 1 or 2 moves in the say the beginning of the set to alert the Wah Lum practitioner to the imposter? I ask because at my school what we learn in class is what we perform at tournaments.

HK

[KickingMantis]

LOL,

MiamiMantis Mentioned and referenced a karate guy learning and then teaching first form. Yut Lo Kuen or Wah Lum First Form is in a published book. So is fatal flute and double broadswords.

Plum Flower Fist, Long Handle Knife and First Form are all demonstrated by Master Chan Poi in Legends of Kung Fu part 1.

He put it in the public eye. wah Lum is a good system with incredible feats. People that perform in tournaments would love to have the sets becauise if they are done correctly, the artist is almost guarenteed to win.

Now, Changing the form so people can't replicate it is another issue. If a teacher thinks he is living in 1700AD and wants to change the form so the SECRETS of WAH LUM or any other style will not be compromised. So be it! But as far as I know there are no secrets in Chinese Kung Fu, except hardwork.

If someone happens to videotape or if an instructor from a style intentional displays their style on videotape and intentionally changes the movements so people will not steal their secret style, They are then saying this is my style. Whether it is the true style or not.

If someone is able to take the time out to videotape a form, learn it and then can apply it, more power to them.

The problem about changing forms for demonstration and tournament purposes is that eventually students forget the original version, they have enough problems just remembering the traditional form in it's original entirety.

[woliveri]

I agree totally. This has been nothing but a pain
at the Temple from my experience. Imagine that a
parent would like to video tape their children or
you would like to have a video tape of one of the
Wah Lum exhibitions. Your out of luck. That
creates a bad atmosphere as far as I'm concerned.
I mean they're just forms. Whoop-T-Doo. It's
just like Napster. Since it came out sales have
increased rather than decreased. Why not sell
videos of the forms. That would provide a
reference of what you learned and the Temple could
make a buck on people that would never have the
chance to come to the Temple or satellite school.

Whatever.....

bill

Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East
By Baird T. Spalding

[Shaolin Master]

It is about quality, credibility, authenticity, ensuring only appropriate people represent your school and the heritage that goes along with it. It is about valuing what you learn, it is about setting goals and standards not shopping at the mall. It is about ensuring that the standards that have existed before you and beyond you are maintained not tarnished nor destroyed. IT is chinese traditional , martial tradition and the reason the tradition benefits an individual. It is about respecting that a master of arts composed a routine/form that he cherished and passed on to whom he chose and that we as lineage representatives must respect that.
It is about not becoming what Karate/Taekwondo has become.

Regards

[BeiTangLang]

Amazing that traditional Chinese practices are practiced more in America than in China. I have spoken to more than one instructor with contacts & ties to China that say Chinese practitioners are quite open about their respective arts now-days. The forms on the tapes shot there match the Kun-Po of that traditions forms....Novel concept eh??
Authenticity & credibilty??
I go to a demo & like what I see there. I go to a school & they tell me, "No, thats not really what we do, that was just a performance set....". O.K, their credibilty has just been shot to hell in my eyes. Imagine you go to a car show, the have the new Porsches' out on the show-room floor & you say you want to buy one. You pull the money out as they open the garage to a new VW Beetle....Whooo-Whoo! Truth in advertising...
Bottom line is, I really don't care what others do. I just like what I like & you like what you like. The world is a funner place that way.
Best wishes to all;
-BTL

"In another time, we shall meet. But not today."

[GreyMystik]

if the concern is 'only certain people representing your style' or certain types of people not 'ripping off' your style...why do demonstrations at tournaments and/or demos in the first place? i mean, that's pretty much misrepresentation as well... for example, i go to a tourney/demo, i like the forms i see you do... cool, i think, i definately want to check out that school ... i get there and it's not what i saw- rather that was a candy-coated or altered form to hide the so-called 'true' form? now if i'm misunderstanding the motives, so be it, and that is my mistake..but this seems like a paranoid and insecure method of 'preserving heritage' to me.
just a thought...

[KickingMantis]

You are absolutely correct in my opinion.

You actually do not preserve your style well because even people within the style have 3-4 or more different versions of forms, from the same lineage so it becomes a problem of who's wrong, right, legit or not.

When who ever(Mimi Chan) does take over and Master Chan passes on with the rest, It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

The song will be.......Im more legit than you are, I have the secret form....., the most deadly movements and techniques........

[NorthernMantis]

Oh come on now.I don't think it is going to come out that way.That is exactly what wah lum is trying to avoid.Someone claiming who is more legit than the other.I believe this was discussed on another thread about legit instructors in wah lum.I was surprised to find another off shoot style of my style the other day and realized that even my style has some people who are not honest.

justsow-

does it really matter that you are doing the modified version for temporay use instead of a permanent one?After all you are just showing it. Plus you will still know the real form and the true techniques will remain in the system right?I don't see how it is a problem.

If they're not teaching you to fight like that using the modified versions I can't see it as a problem.You see it as disrespectful but I remeber not too long ago you were bashing Sifu Mimi Chan,Master Chan's Daughter,weren't you chad?It is being done to keep the system intact and not the other way.However you did say that it is starting to become a problem.In what way is it hindering your learning progress?

"Always be ready"

[KickingMantis]

Only time will tell.

[NorthernMantis]

we'll see :)

"Always be ready"

[MiamiMantis]

Well I'm glad we got that all straightened out....