All You's guys

[8stepsifu]

Do you use Mantis hooks while fighting? What is your style of Northern Mantis and what influences has it had?

8Step Sifu

[chyisan]

No. I don't use mantis hook while fighting. But that's because I'm but a beginner in 8 step. I have noticed, however, that when I block a strike, my hands automatically tries to grab the wrist. It's not a mantis-style grab though.

Mindlessness is the enemy...

[word]

The mantis hook hand is to feel the punches. If it's a jab then you continue to use the mantis hook. IF the jab turns into a real punch then you go from the mantis hook hand into an eagle claw. ( grab and twist)

HOWEVER, if you try a grab and twist everytime you will fail because not every punch is a real punch. If you try an eagle claw against a jab the guy will pull back while you went for the grab and give you a real punch. Then you will wonder why your great eagle claw technique doesn't work.

[KickingMantis]

i use the mantis hook to not just intercept, grab and feel but as a positive or negative dieu, it can be used to attack the soft portions of the body; throat, temple,groin, bridge of the nose, solar plexus, ribs and dan tien.

[Fu Manchu]

Dear 8step Sifu,

Do you teach your students to use mantis hooks when they fight?

Chyisan who is a beginner is grabbing automatically at the wrist of a punch. Would this be a correct application of 8step technique if Chyisan executes the grab with a mantis hook?

[BeiTangLang]

Just curious,....seems like a waste of effort...

"Eat bitter & you will taste bitter."

[8stepsifu]

Hooks in sets or body coordination number 4 represent grabs and train the hand to grab with the last 3 fingers. BTW Who is your Sifu? Anyway, jabs arent mantis grabbed because there is no weight behind them, so it's kind of pointles, Mostly we just keep our guard up for jabs, but when something comes that they are commiting to we grab and punch. There are times that I would use a mantis hook for striking, but for the most part I use fists or palms.

8Step Sifu

[KickingMantis]

Do people even know what the mantis hook hand is for?

Some same only for grabbing...........
Others say mainly for grabbing and some striking.....etc.,

The point is it can be used many ways as interpreted by the practitioner and varying schools.

There are sets in several styles of mantis that emphasis the dieu sow to be used as grabbing, striking, chin-na, and blocking while at the same time hitting pressure points.

I dont think its matter of who someones sifu is, it it works for them and they can apply it so be it.

There are some sets in various styles of mantis where the majority of the hand techniques is utilizing dieu sow.

If your particular style or you in particular only use particular hand formations so be it. But the opportunity is open to explore and discover the varying applications.

[obiwan]

Guys!

I can't believe there are so many Preying Mantis practitioners who don't know or don't use the mantis hooks.

Only Kicking Mantis some good roles of the hooks.
Yes it is used to hit sensitive areas such as the groin and throat. Using the outside of the wrist in a hook, it is smaller than a fist, with enough power to do significant damage.


8Step sifu, you actually stand ready for battle with the hooks out? What kind of bad action kung fu movie did you learn from? I'm sorry to be degrading, but having the hook already out negates the whole possible usage of the hook altogether!

Look at the mantis grab people! (that is thumb and last 3 fingers performing the grab with the index finger along the arm)

Grab someone's arm using the mantis grab. From a top view, you should see only your index finger lying along the arm, and your thumb. (depending on the amount of twist)

Now repeat the grab WITHOUT actually grabbing an arm! Suprise! You have the mantis hook! Every time you hook, you could have grabbed someone.

Look at your Liang Jie forms! The hook is coiled after the execution of the first few blocks, but NOT BEFORE!

The hook helps from over throwing you arm in certain strikes too. Eg. Liang Jie's first real block. If you blocked up like that at close range, you would lose control of the block. The hook makes sure your arm doesn't fly away, but instead catches it into position.

Even the, I don't know the term for it, but in Liang Jie, the shaking arms technique. (Eg. can be used when someone tries to tackle you)

Ok, the guy has both arms extended out to grab and his head is too close and tucked to well for a kick to have much success. (Or you were too slow) and he's about to get his arms around you.
Your arms stop his, but he's got his momentum and strength going.....throw the hooks while blocking!

It gives the blocks this extra uumphh at short range that can help to overcome his strength. (It's really hard to explain without showing you)


Also, no never try to grab jabs or even punches.
Block the thing first, if he's still there, then latch on. That's how you should be using your hooks practice.

The hook's application comes from it's dynamic movement. The final position of the hook has really no direct application.

Wait, let me elaborate, that's too general a statement:

What I mean is the hook gives it's extra edge from the dynamic application, not just what it looks like at the end. In this case, how you got there, is more important than what it finishes as.

OK, easy demonstration. Try ****ing your hand into the mantis hook and flicking it at an imaginery throat. (SAFETY FIRST!)

Then try the same thing from an open hand position. Throw the hand out and at the last moment, tighten it into a hook, hitting with the outside of the wrist.

Notice the speed difference? Same concept as not tightening a fist until just before impact! Don't form the hook until just before impact! The speed and power difference is significant!

And why would we ever use Eagle claw grab in a mantis technique? I have never need to because the mantis grab has served all my purposes and eagle claw grabs are easier to escape from anyway. The hook let's you read the movement of the arm better.

With the index finger extended along the arm, you can feel where the rest of the arm is moving, as opposed to eagle claw where you can only feel the wrist.

Nuff said

Sorry to offend some people, but mantis hook is such an important part of our style I am really quite shocked that some many fellow practitioners dont know many of it's applications.

As to discovering new uses of the moves, good luck. Practitioners have had 300 years to do this and that's why we have different branches such as 6 harmony, plum ffist and seven star mantis.

These were discovered in the thick of mortal combat and that the idea that one of us training would accidently stumble across it's hidden meaning or wonderful new application seems nearly farsical. Don't give yourself too much credit boys, this stuff was developed by guys who had to fight thieves, barbarians and pirates on a daily basis and the idea the we from the bastions of modern society see anything or experienced combat anything like what they saw, let alone "discover" something they missed, is insulting to them.

These styles lived because the people using it, had their lives depending upon this. Not just lively hood, but lives everyday on the silk road as bodyguards or whatever. I am sure very few of us fit into this category, if any.

I don't care how bad the muggers were, they are not as bad as the rogues alond the silk road. FOr all the talk of humblness, not many people round here realise what an insulated society we have today and just how fortunate we are.

Sorry for flaming everyone, but I thought everything in this post should not have been necessary except for the very beginners.

The Force will be with you...always

[Shaolin Master]

took long enough but..
Finally someone with sense
Thank You

Shi Chan Long

[obiwan]

Thanks for your support Shoalin master

I'm actually from Sydney myself.

What's your training background?

The Force will be with you...always

[Shaolin Master]

I visited your teacher before .... He knows me as of the Singapore Fujian Shaolin .

Background is extremely varied

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[obiwan]

VEry cool

How long ago was it when you met my Sifu? Just trying to remember if we've met?

The Force will be with you...always

[8stepsifu]

First of all if you actually read my post I said that I don't fight with hooks, but they can be used for striking in some situations (like groin and throat) and train people for a quick grab. As for Lan Jie, if you actually knew the applications to it you would know that the motion is neither a block nor a strike, but before you rant and rave that I'm wrong actually think about it.. Why would you block like "Danialsan paints the fence" No it represents a continuaiton of a continuation of a throw. Please don't bore me any more, you ranted and raved saying exactly the same thing that I did, I have seen other mantis styles try to duke it out from the classic mantis holds the cicaida posture, which is begging for a joint lock and evidently you don't do this, thank you for your imput.

8Step Sifu

[Papieboni]

You made some really good points, However, I dont think it is a matter of patting oneself on the back when individuals make new discoveries for utilizing techniques from their style for example we are talking about the utilization of the dieu sow.

It can be a matter of their sifu didn't provide thorough explanations for the use of techniques because they didnt know themselves, held back information or just because of their limited knowledge in mantis themselves.

For example, Since I have been studying with my current teacher and the opportunity to train with LKM, Si-Gung and others, I have picked up more little things in this short time of how to use the techniques than I had in all the years I have studied kung fu previously. What a discovery hugh!
not that it is new but because I have tried to be open minded to the usuage of techniques by different people,lineages and styles. So to me it would be a new discovery because I previously didn't know it or was not exposed to it. No offense to mantis ancestors at all. Some one taught them or they discovered it too.

About the usuage of Eagle Claw! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif "We would never use the Eagle Claw Grab, It is easy to escape from'" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Then you haven't been grabbed by the right Eagle Claw martial artist. Let Master Shum Lum from New York grab you, you escape and then you tell us how easy it was for you to escape. LOL!

Some mantis have Eagle Claws in them for a purpose!

" Moss Never Grows on a Rolling Stone"

[Fu Manchu]

Kicking Mantis

When you refer to Eagle Calw, I'm assuming you mean a 5 finger hold with the thumb opposing the other 4 fingers.

By defination, this will provide a stronger grip and it is suitable for holidng objects that are not mobile.

However, to get a "5 finger lock on" in the flurry of combat is extremely rare. Or rather, you will be moving through many other alternatives such as palming, hitting, hooking, deflecting etc. before moving into the "claw" alternative.

The Mantis hook however is very versitle as pointed out by Obiwan and would be used a lot more than a 5-finger grab. It's not tlike once you've learned to use a mantis hook, you lose the ability to hold things with 5 fingers LOL.

So, do mantis practitioners use a 5 finger grab? yes we do but we don't make a big deal out of it or give it a special name. If the situation presents itself for the "grab" and we want to "control" rather then "destroy" our target, we'll do it but at the same time we don't look for things to grab.

Your reference to the Eagle Claw Instructor's grip: If someone can prevent me from escaping only because I let him grip me in the first place - I wouldn't worry about it. As a mantis practitioner, you should have dealt with the situation BEFORE the lock gets put on!!!!
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[KickingMantis]

You said, "To get a 5 finger lock on a flurry of combat is extremely rare."

It is difficult to get a lock on in a flurry of attacks with any lock 1-2-3-4-5 fingers. Thats not and wasn't the issue. If you are fighting someone that knows how to punch and they are retracting as fast as they execute, you would rarely get a lock.

That wasn't the issue and the point was missed.

And your very last paragraph is off the mark too, you said,

"If someone can prevent me from escaping only because I let him grip me in the first place - I wouldn't worry about it. As a mantis practitioner, you should have dealt with the situation BEFORE the lock gets put on!!!!

The issue wasn't whether to let someone lock you and try to escape or to even worry about it.
The point I was making was directed towards the statement made by Obiwan that the Eagle Claw is easy to escape from.
I am saying, no its not if it is applied effectively from some one that knows what they are doing.

I used Master Lum Shum of the No. Eagle Claw system becuase he is known for his Eagle Claw and his strong grip, I know by attending a seminar of his at my previous instructors school that he has a extremely STRONG grip and it is not easily escapable if applied.

Maybe you & Obiwan should actually touch with someone that is proficient in Eagle Claw and then u can post blanket statements of the easiness of escaping from their claw.

But to me it is a blanket statement made with no back up.It would be like saying that the mantis hand doesn't work.

And I agree you SHOULD be able to deal with the grab before the lock is intact, but what if you dont? or what if you can't what if the other hand is locked up already too? We should be able to do a lot of things. IF IF IF.

And the issue to me still isnt about Eagle Claw vs Mantis Claw its about assuming Eagle Claw or any other claw for that matter is easy to escape unless you have first hand experience fighting with a good percentage of good quality Eagle Claw instructors or students.

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 12-01-00 at 08:25 PM.]

[chyisan]

It seems like there's some conflict brewing here... Mind if I change the subject?

Some of you mentioned the mantis grab using the thumb and the last 3 fingers. I was always taught the mantis grab using the thumb and the first 2 fingers. Is there a differnce in application or advantage of one over the other? 8stepSifu, what about you? Since we both are 8 step, how do you do your mantis hook?

Mindlessness is the enemy...

[mantis108]

While it is great to have seasoned practitioner sharing their Kung Fu with others, it is very important to bear in mind novice are the audience on the forums as well.

It would seem that the topic becomes a discussion between Hook Hand the formation and Hood Hand the applications.

Hood Hand the formation is elementary. All NPM have their own theory. It would be pointless to judge which is better.


Hood Hand the applications (note the use of prural) adhere to the 12 charactors principle. Again there are many schools of thought on the 12 charactors. The Hood Hand can and should process all these qualities as follow (I am listing a few)

Ou Sau is a feeler or a probe as in a jab. It's fast and elusive.

Dieu Sau is a heavy binder. It is like the Cross to a jab.

Lau is grab, wrap, and embrace. It is to gain control of opponent's extended tool(s).

Choi is pluck - to nullify, to mime, and/or to hit stop (strike in some cases)

Each can be used individually or in combination. Each can be used with single or double hand(s).

If we use the single handed Ou-Lau-Choi the finished formation will look like a Dieu Sau.

You intercept (relaxed open hand) the incoming blow that's Ou, then following (with sensitivity) and wrap (3 finger is still an Ou or 5 fingers is a classic Lau), finally to pluck and nullify it to the side or downward (with or without a tug) and that's Choi. The full motion is Dieu as is throwing junks away form you. Of course, the other tools are still in action.

2 things to remember about Manits is that:

1) It's primary a striking art

2) It's mostly a Progressive Indirect Attack style. That is why you have tones of combinations and deceptive moves.

If you are aggressive and impatient like Bruce Lee, then Mantis is not for you.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[obiwan]

8 - First of all if you actually read my post I said that I don't fight with hooks, but they can be used for striking in some situations (like groin and throat) and train people for a quick grab.

Obiwan- My point is that the hooks being such an important component, seems to be an oversight not to use it more often. Sometimes great hit locations which are only accessible by a hook strike present themselves. As for locations of hits, my previous post has already covered those hit locations.

8- As for Lan Jie, if you actually knew the applications to it you would know that the motion is neither a block nor a strike, but before you rant and rave that I'm wrong actually think about it.. Why would you block like "Danialsan paints the fence"

Obiwan- Because you are at point blank range and normal blocks do not work. You need to cut of the attack and you do not have the liberty of space to move your arms much.

8- No it represents a continuaiton of a continuation of a throw.
Obiwan - It can be the continuation of a throw, but there doesn't seem to have the body movement to support that action.

8- Please don't bore me any more, you ranted and raved saying exactly the same thing that I did,

Obiwan- If I am boring you, don't reply. If I am ranting and raving, why do other people compliment my post, and why have others used it as a positive frame of reference for arguement.

I do know the applications for Liang Jie. Please dont insult my intelligence. I know nothing about you, and I have only made judgements on people's statements.
You are a mantis practioner who doesnt seem to place much importance on hooks, which to me seems very unusual since it is a trademark move of the style. Not to say that it is the ultimate move by any means, but it is an important one.


8- I have seen other mantis styles try to duke it out from the classic mantis holds the cicaida posture, which is begging for a joint lock and evidently you don't do this, thank you for your imput.

Obiwan -Agreed. Feeling is mutual

In conclusion, I apologised for flaming on email, but i was shocked by people's lack of knowledge in the hook's uses. Let alone a question, "what are they used for."

I apologised at the end so as not to offend anyone. Your message was pure scorn. When you have cooled down, perhaps we can continue discussing the use of mantis hooks.

The Force will be with you...always

[Fu Manchu]

Kicking Mantis

I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms.

Whether someone could grab you in the first place is precisely the point. If there is a low chance of them getting a "lock on" why spend squillions of hours learning to escape. Sure a piano can fall from a plane and hit on the head and no amount of KF will defend you from that!!

You said:
"Then you haven't been grabbed by the right Eagle Claw martial artist. Let Master Shum Lum from New York grab you, you escape and then you tell us how easy it was for you to escape. LOL!"

My point is that, your example is unrealistic.

In any case, the strength of the grip is marginal to the overall effectiveness of the claw. You don't expect an unwilling opponent would be led around by the arm like a puppy would you? If that was not the case, why would riot police have to work in teams to subdue an opponent.

Real KF is not some party trick on how hard you can grab or how long Harry Hudini takes to escape. It is true that if a lock down is achieved ( regardless of the style - Mantis, Eagle, wrestling) escape will be difficult. However, we're not taking about a grab, but more like a head lock etc.
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[KickingMantis]

I sense a since of sarcasm in your post and I think that by us going back and forth on this issue is going nowhere.

I dont know why you brought LAWCLANSMAN (SIfu C. Albright) into this discussion. You said " I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms."
Sounds like you have an issue with him, the number of forms he knows and his inheritancy. You should probably clear up your personal issues and insecurities with him on a one on one basis.

You seem to think that you are invincable and will never be grabbed and if you do, you can escape it by any one that grabs you, especially if it is a five finger grab.

I am going to assume that you do not use your system to fight and that you do not fight often (maybe you do with gloves or you have just reached this heavenly plateau and you are now invincable). And no one can ever grab you.

I have been given the opportunity to touch often lately and I am grabbed and I grab, depending on the grab it is easy to escape and sometimes it is not.

In MY opinion you made a blanket statement that the "Five Finger" or "Eagle Claw" is easy to escape I was just trying to explain to you that, NO it is not if applied during touching hands or a fight with someone that knows how to use the claw and yes the point is not to be grabbed, but reality is if two seasoned fighters are engaging in combat they are both going to grab and lock each other up, yes there are counters, however, you need to realize that you are not living in reality when you continue to say i will never be grabbed, because you will and you need to know what to do when you are. It is evident that you dont know what to do if you are because you are concentrating too much on not being grabbed and the second you engage someone that is good at sticking and they grab you, you are going to freak out try to pull away and get locked up.

you said, "If there is a low chance of them getting a lock on why spend squillions of hours learning to escape."

I never said there is a low chance of getting a lock on, but just because you spend squillions of hours, as you say to get a lock on or escape a lock doesn't mean you will grab and lock every one you fight or touch with and it doesn't mean that you will escape them either.

So my example was not realistic Fu Manchu.......
you said and made a blanket statement that the five finger grab is easy to escape from....I am advocatig it isnt always the case if you are grabbed by an individual that knows what they are doing, yeah you can counter and so can they, but to assume that a partucular technique doesnt work because you haven't had it applied on you effectively is like saying all kung fu sucks.:)

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 12-05-00 at 11:30 AM.]

[obiwan]

In my experience, Eagle claw is far more difficult to apply correctly in the thick of combat.

I didnt suggest it doesnt work, what I said earlier that the time lag and the sensitivity of the grab is considerably less than the mantis hook.

While the hook can feel on at least 3 planes of movement, the Eagle claw by its nature really only works on 2, thus it is harder to compensate for when someone is trying to get out of it.

The mantis gives me much more sensitivity than the former.

The arguement was not whether Eagle works. It does. But I think the mantis hook can compensate for sudden changes BEFORE the grab is fully applied. (Dont you agree that is when most grabs fail, when they haven't quite clamped on?)

I think it is easier to compensate and turn the hook into a hit or a defence compared to the Eagle Claw. This is my experience and the experience of many fighters I know. My point in the end is that no one has ever needed to point out a SPECIFIC SIFU who can perform the grab, where as Kicking Mantis had to tell us who can actually use the move.

Most people who are taught the mantis hook can apply it effectively. (In my experience) It's not a situation of, "It doesn't work? Well "so and so" can do it."

Mantis hook is more of a, "Do you know how to apply it?" And if the person does, people havent said it doesnt work. (On this forum anyway)

Cheers
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Force will be with you...always

[Fu Manchu]

Hey Kicking Mantis,

Never did the FUster claim to be invincible or ungrabbable. Although I do thank you for holding me in such high regard when you don't really know me!

Never did I say it was impossible to "lock", only that one would have to get through a lot of opposing factors to get into that range!!

I was hoping that LawClansMan had something to contribute as he is usually quite vocal on the forums. i don't have any problems with him or anyone for that matter. Engaging in forums is my relaxation time, I hope you see it that way too. Nevertheless i do thank you for your concern about my perceived personal insecurities!!

In terms of grabbing, it is not easy to put on - evidence police subduing opponents. Even in a controlled environment of No holds barred contest, the match takes substantially longer time on average than a real fight.

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[KickingMantis]

Obiwan,

I only mentioned theat particular sifu because i know personally that his Eagle claw grab is incredibe.

A lot of people do mantis and other styles and they grab as well. It does mean that it is effective.It depends on the individual and the circumstance.

Fu Manchu made a blanket statement and said it is easily escapable. My argument is if you fight, you know that you CAN be grabbed, and sometimes you dont feel it right away or pull away from it it can lead to a lock. In my opinion I dont think any grab is easily escapable always. Fu Manchu said the point of studying mantis is so you will not be grabbed. I agree. But you have to prepare yourself and know what to do if you are. Assuming that a grab is easily escapable so I wont worry about it is ridiculous.

Obiwan:
"In my experience, Eagle claw is far more difficult to apply correctly in the thick of combat."

ok, you may not have studied Eagle Claw or you are not proficient at it. I dont study Eale Claw either, But I have learned some of it and some of its principles are in 7 Star Mantis (HK)

Obiwan:
"I didnt suggest it doesnt work, what I said earlier that the time lag and the sensitivity of the grab is considerably less than the mantis hook."

I dont think I ever said you suggested it doesn't work. The only thing I said was replying to Fu Manchu's blanket statement that it can be easily escaped from. My opinion is that any grab, can be easily escaped from if you are grabbed from someone that doesn't know how or isn't proficient.
but it can be difficult to escape from to both grabs or any grab depending ona lot of factors, not just the position of the hand.

Obiwan:
"Mantis hook is more of a, "Do you know how to apply it?" And if the person does, people havent said it doesnt work. (On this forum anyway)"

Any hook or grab is more of a Do you know how to apply it, that refers to any technique, theory or method not just the mantis claw or Eagle Claw

Fu Manchu:
"I was hoping that LawClansMan had something to contribute as he is usually quite vocal on the forums. i don't have any problems with him or anyone for that matter. Engaging in forums is my relaxation time, I hope you see it that way too. Nevertheless i do thank you for your concern about my perceived personal insecurities!!"

earlier you said:

"I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms."

I dont know sounds pretty sarcastic to me. I dont know anyone that knows 10,000,000 forms and I dont speak for him, but i am sure he didn't claim to.

Fu Manchu:
"In terms of grabbing, it is not easy to put on - evidence police subduing opponents. Even in a controlled environment of No holds barred contest, the match takes substantially longer time on average than a real fight."

Ok. I see now. I see what I am up against. Thats why. another No Holds Barred and WWF fan.

[Kenji]

The reason some mantis lineages (particularly the ones frm HK) uses the eagle claw is because quite afew of the teachers also learnt eagle claw. I think there was exchange of information between Mr Lau of Eagle Claw (forgot his full name) and some mantis teachers and also because eagle claw and mantis were two of the main styles in the Ching Wu Association.

As for the effectiveness of the eagle claw tecnhique I can't comment much on it since I haven't learn Ying Zhao before.

[ChitownMantis]

(Bowing In)
Have you done something to have people seem to hate you and what you say??? I seem that on every post I read someone is dissin' you. Just curious , what gives?

(Bowing Out)

[ChitownMantis]

I am talking to 8stepsifu