dummy

[bennyvt]

me again. I was wondering about the 6th section. Been reading about how others do it mainly the kick tan palm bit. My question is where do you face when kicking. Have seen many different ideas. Facing the dummy, facing the leg. I get that it could be just kick or any combo of the moves also do you do a stomp kick, the normal upward kick (what i got taught) etc. Or any comments about the first bit with the downward palm to tan sao. Thanks in advance

[couch]

6th section for me is where I start with Double Gan Sau three times and it contains the lean and rear leg kick.

I know it may be tedious, but give us - say - the first few moves of that section so I have something to compare my form to...

[bennyvt]

sorry should be more specific. The bit where you in down yard palm to tan sao to bong them step turn and kick tan and palm. The one after the po pai section.

[bennyvt]

that should be downward palm. I dont mean the palm used down my yard. Bloody preemptive text.

[David Peterson]

Hi Benny,

Here's my two cents worth... :)

As I was taught it, the sequence consists of Soh Sau with a pivot, followed by Taan Sau as you square-up with the Jong, then Bong Sau with a pivot. You then disengage with the Jong, stepping to the side of the structure such that you are at 90 degrees to the Jong with the closest (left) hand in Che Jeung (low palm) and the other hand in Taan Sau, whilst simultaneously kicking to the knee of the Jong with the right foot. Wong Sifu was emphatic that the kick go as directly to the knee as possible, rather than a "one-two" stomping action, and that the knee must be turned outward, as is the foot, so that there was little chance of the leg buckling at the knee if the opponent's leg drove through the kick or it was mis-timed. Hope this makes sense to you :)
DMP

[k gledhill]

wsl thinking...left arm + turning soh sao/gum sao= low deflection to a left arm elbow exercise recovery position to train pre-strike positions [tan] facing chu-ying training [ not a move] then, left bong to deflect with facing moving target...the bong again becomes a strike elbow in training ...the arm alone is deflect>recover to strike, deflect>recover to strike etc....the kick as DP says is a straight line regardless of distance , you will hit what is on the line first ..knee, thigh, groin, head [ if you hit him already ; )] , no 1lift 2kick,... like a broom stick laying down with the end touching the dummy and the other end on the floor , your foot travels the same line , the force you generate doesnt push you back wards . both feet drive away from each other to utilize the force of each , not just support and kick...you dont lift up in the air when kicking but drive force sharply into the gound and into the target together...2 legs are better than one.
Facing the the attack or iow turning to the dummy [ done a lot because it dont move] is only because IT doesnt move :D but we have to to use it again or we go into thin air next to it....it is the imaginary space next to the dummy that we would really follow into..but look silly attacking air ;) ...in reality the bong to tan kick is by maintaining a facing attack line of an opponent moving away from your constant attack ...the step out and turning reface is considered a 'move' by many....try imagine chasing down a guy along a cage or a wall , rather than the wait for the guy to attack you then do a step and turn and zzzz:rolleyes:
the attack is trained in chum kil by stepping sideways at 45* as if we are attacking one side as it moves from us [ not a move] , facing as if we have to go into it attacking a flank , but in attacking not face to face just when the flank is decided for that moment, shifting to face either side with equal ability same thinking a target doesn't want to get hit and unlike ourselves , moves across the centerline laterally to defend against straight lines . Then ambidextrous training for obvious necessity to be able to point and shoot a target either side fluidly...

If you understand the whole idea 'prior' to the dummy, the sum of the parts are simply reinforcing a common ' whole' idea...from the slt up....same thinking.
attacking as your response to a fight...you need to be able to maintain a constant attack ...the dummy being fixed forces us to turn and face as we step, in reality the turn step wont be done, training for facing , to 'go back' to drilling...in a fight you would chase the guy down constantly...deflect/strike one arm while the other is strike /deflect
together in sequence rotating , you have the basic rotation patterns of each arm striking or opening up the front line for the following strike ..etc... kick on the line your attacking without lifting to stop your momentum of entry and then kicking ...to slow...strike on a line , kick on the same line ...blitz.. just not like the dummy ; )

dummy is very confusing without knowing its just drilling the elbows positions to be unthinking correct lines of angles ...

the turning to face and enter the sides of the dummy are so we know each arm with correct elbow positions can reach the target...we dont actually do attacks with an tan and a side-plam together ...we 'can';) reality is your doing a tan [outside of forearm] and a jum [inside of forearm] 'position check' , relative to your drilling dummy...if you really had a fight , you would keep going in the direction of the guy your trying to hit...he's moving down a bar room wall , trying to get away from you as you land blows..he covers up you do a po -pai to shove him away with your momentum, then kick him , you don't think when you fight, so the kick will just be a way to hurt him directly asap after losing a strike with the hands, without doing a round kick that will spin you on the spot, like a missed thai kick... he refaces you to throw a punch you can allow th punch to move across your line and take the given flanked /turned /body ....or ? that's up to you.... you might strike with a tan-side forearm strike because its the right strike for the right moment, or a jum striking arm because your angles to the attack made it the best shot ..then the following strike [tan] is done as if you are cycling through the dummy..only not turning , refacing to check , drilling other side, turning etc....

the opponent will show YOU what to do , what side, you don't think sequence #6 step turn face etc...you just go BANG BANG kick push bang kick head butt ;) throw chair etc...duck a thrown beer bottle , throw one back etc... ah memories :D

the clarity of of the system lies in its simplicity to give you the ability to deliver a sustained attack regardless of incoming or going ...we train to face lines of force naturally, like any fighter does in a ring..they dont work to set pieces or sequential memory of applications...just move relative to the movement before them and respond accordingly with the best shot , using their strongest weapon... the free mind to express itself with no constraints of ' this move', then turn etc...
We have concepts guiding the techniques that allow us to deliver it....without thinking.

[bennyvt]

Thanks heaps for your posts. Lots of info to digest.
I got the main ideas of if push someone away the same hand will have to attack/block as it will always be closer and that the kick can be done as a combo or just tan or palm etc. Will be thinking about it more

[k gledhill]

all the techniques allow an ability to attack a flank..example is right tan , left jum , left bong/vu-strike , all feed the ability to attack the guys right side...in any sequence...change sides and the right tan is the now the right jum....

tan is a training position for a double action strike, as is jum sao ...
tan uses the outside leading edge with elbows low and in to ensure the correct deflection angles along the arm as it leaves this position to STRIKE and recovers back to elbows in to repeat endlessly.... If done correctly no 'force' can stop it except an equal counter line :D or a grab [ergo bil gee release moves].
Jum [side-palm makes the elbow turn inwards] uses the inside of the forearm , by keeping the elbows in and low , so the strike deflects force inwards , relative to our elbow/flank position....
All the techniques work to fight a flanked weakened side...

bongs move force left or right to clear for either arm capable of being a tan or jum in a nano second of response naturally to the line of force presented...thats why all the chi-sao for one...

each arm is tan/jum depending on the side you fight , and never leaves the centerline , because they are striking deflections. The brain signals the appropriate corrections to make the jum [inside] strike, reface and become a tan[ outside] strike.

It looks like a chain punch when used , not tan , jum, tan , jum etc... the elbow control trained from SLT up, is this thinking . To deliver a simple strike with either arm, so it works like 2...

example is instead of using a right hand pak sao to trap an arm and then strike over with a left strike lifting the elbow up and over to reach...
We use either arms forearms to align to the target , not the attackers arm...keeping the alignment we develop an invisible line of engagement IF its X'ed by another line of force....if the arm meets the other in a rotation strike attack, either arm will be able to act as the controlling AND striking arm in one beat. UNTHINKING without arm chasing lead actions , taking your ability to overwhelm , back to being equal arm for arm responses or worse 2 for one ...constantly , from trap to over trapping etc....
IF that is interrupted and the lead arm is stopped it becomes a jut, etc..to feed the rear hand ...chi-sao instills the appropriate response , unthinking .

The common idea being arm alignment drills to develop the twofold strike/deflect actions in both the tan strike and jum strikes...

on the dummy we train both extended to simply ensure the ability to strike with either and have correct alignment , not application I block your arm with one arm and then do a low rib strike with my other , over :D...next move:rolleyes:
schools that do this thinking usually fall aprt when sparring and do a pak sao kick boxing , bong in air elbows up trying to do reaching 'tags' to say "I got you".... reality is the 'tag' wouldn't drop or stop a fly ...a lot rely on the lop-chop [ chop having the elbow WAY up ] , because they dont know how to control or attack without grabbing themselves...grabbing is frowned on as the main response , when a jut allows attacking on the line ...
the tan , low gaun , tan, huen sao , jum sao ...are strike, deflect, strike , deflect , strike.
practice lateral attacking to, facing [chu-ying] with both strikes , again not to turn an 'attack the dummy';) but imaging keeping going beyond the dummy using either strike
in rotation coupled with the attack line clearing, using man sao actions for the rear attack hand vu-sao


vu-sao is your best friend :D always free to attack..it is part of the thinking to not tie your own arms up and be unable to have a free vu-sao... no free vu-sao , bad .... another thing we do in chi-sao is pressure test to make a mistake of this ....not to fight each other like your opponent is going to do vusao ...