ESPN's Outside the Lines Debates Kids and MMA

[TaichiMantis]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3497233

How young is too young? How much contact, when? What attitude toward physical violence is being formed? What do you think?:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I say:
No contact training before 10 and no competition before 13 ( full contact).

[MasterKiller]

Personally, I don't think kids should train until they are 11 or 12, at least. But the argument he makes against MMA could also be used against wrestling, TKD, and boxing, which no one ever seems to have a problem with.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He's obviously never seen a lacroose or hockey game

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, if MMA got a "decent" rep for the sport, we wouldn't have any of this crap at all.
Get some good looking, articulate guy that isn't covered with tattoos and looks like his face was put in a meat grinder or likes being portrayed as a thug and you would see a total change in public perception.

[MasterKiller]

You know, if MMA got a "decent" rep for the sport, we wouldn't have any of this crap at all.
Get some good looking, articulate guy that isn't covered with tattoos and looks like his face was put in a meat grinder or likes being portrayed as a thug and you would see a total change in public perception.

You would also alienate 70% of the market demographic buying pay-per-view events.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You would also alienate 70% of the market demographic buying pay-per-view events.

Well, what does THAT say about MMA?
:eek:

[Vash]

Does kid's boxing still use headgear?

Also, how safe is it to have some kid with little developed control hitting another kid full-force and throwing some dangerous submissions in a high-pressure environ?

And yes, I'm one of those guys who disapproves of full-contact kid-sports.

Hell, give 'em a technique, a kata, and a fancy "uniform" and have them develop the proper attributes of a dedicated LARPer.

[Kevin Huang]

In the old days, it was normal for kids to ride their bikes and get banged up.

Kids would climb trees and fall far distances if they weren't careful. They'd wrestle each other, beat each other up, and make up afterwards. And yet these kids turned out totally normal as adults - many of them post on this forum!

Today, I hear of kids not being allowed to run at school because the schools fear lawsuits if the kids fall and injure themselves. I hear of kids being unable to go outside to play because it's too dangerous. Forget play wrestling - that could result in parents suing other parents.

Yet I know several kids who are playing competitive youth league football 7 days a week. That's a harder schedule than the NFL! Cheerleading is a very high risk pursuit that has resulted in severe injury for some, yet it's not banned. Kids are injuring themselves playing all sorts of sports, and those sports aren't banned.

I think it's part of being a kid to test one's physical limits under appropriate circumstances.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Survival of the fittest. 8 year olds should fight to the death in the circle of fire!

[SimonM]

Against rabid dire wolves... and certified baby eating dingoes.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Against rabid dire wolves... and certified baby eating dingoes.

I just rewatched 300 last night. That's how all children should be raised.

BTW, best line in the movie: "That's because only Spartan women give birth to REAL men."

[JGTevo]

I've been getting into fights since I was 7. Especially when I was that age I would go looking everywhere for fights and this is what I personally learned: The impact of punches and kicks from kids my age(martial artists and non martial artists alike) and even kids who were as big as two to three years older and outweighing me by at least 40 pounds - Is nowhere near as damaging as an adults strikes against another adult. With a few exceptions, kids simply do not have the muscle, body structure, or the ability to comprehend how to properly strike to do serious damage to other kids their age and size.

[TenTigers]

I had a student who in his teens, was an excellent hockey player. So good in fact, that they put him in adult league. Well, he had so many concussions that he now has seizure disorder. I have seen him have full blown epileptic seizure.
Headgear does prevent concussion and neurological damage. It prevents fractures and cuts, and in open tournaments, it is required because a person once died after being KO'd and fell and hit his head on the floor.
Just because a kid wears headgear, doesn't all of a sudden, make it a safe sport.
Not fer nuthin, but many of the people who claim otherwise usually have other manifestations of dain bramage as well. Or haven't you noticed?:p

[Mr Punch]

Personally, I don't think kids should train until they are 11 or 12, at least. But the argument he makes against MMA could also be used against wrestling, TKD, and boxing, which no one ever seems to have a problem with.I don't see any problem with kids as young as 5 or 6 starting the grappling arts. We see countless examples of BJJers, judoka and aikidoka at those ages growing into strong and safe fighters. Any art that involves anywhere near full contact to the head, protected or not, is out though in my book. I read somewhere that the brain is still growing and fitting the skull up to 14 years old.

Of course, if they want to do boxing (for example) there's no reason why they shouldn't start with shadow boxing, drills, pads, and heavy bags... and maybe even body shots.

[GeneChing]

14-18 seems fine to me.
Mixed Martial Arts Makes Its Way to High School (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/sports/othersports/18mma.html?_r=1&hp)
Jodi Hilton for The New York Times

By JUSTIN PORTER
Published: November 17, 2008

Marcelo Siqueira, left, is a world-class competitor in martial arts who has been a guest instructor for Winchester High School's mixed martial arts club.

Just another meeting of the Winchester High mixed martial arts club, which may be the only of its kind in the country.

It began as the brainchild of In-Goo Kwak, a senior at Winchester who began campaigning for the program when he was a freshman. A student of martial arts since age 8, he wanted to create an outlet for students who were not interested in traditional sports.

Now housed in the school’s wrestling room, the club has nearly two dozen participants, ages 14-18.

At a class last month, Kwak arranged for a guest instructor, Marcelo Siqueira, someone who planned to make regular appearances. Siqueira runs a martial arts center in nearby Somerville and was a national karate champion in Brazil. He has a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu and studied at the famous Chute Boxe mixed martial arts academy in Curitiba, Brazil.

Siqueira was here to help Kwak, one of his students, and also to scout for potential talent. Siqueira manages a few professional fighters. He understands all too well the sport’s violent reputation, having fought in Brazil’s Vale Tudo arenas, the home of the no-holds-barred, bare-knuckle matches that gave birth to mixed martial arts.

“A lot of people think it’s too aggressive or violent,” Siqueira said of the sport of mixed martial arts. “But after a while, they see a different perspective.”

He added that the club offered an opportunity to pour out aggression in a safe environment designed for it. He spoke passionately about the self-discipline required to be a fighter.

Mixed martial arts was illegal in nearly every state in the country in the early 1990s, but is legal in most states now. The sport outgrosses professional boxing in pay-per-view revenue. It is now an arena for serious athletes. To succeed, a fighter must acquire the skills of four separate combat sports — boxing, wrestling, kick-boxing and submission grappling — and combine them.

Kwak lobbied for the program for two years before it began in 2006. When school administrators saw his commitment and professionalism — he pursued everything from correct safety measures to financing — they supported the club.

The school’s only concern was that the students were not actually hitting each other. They practice kicks and punches to pads, but do not kick or punch with one another. The club has not had a serious injury in the two years it has been active.

Brian Carroll, the athletic director at Winchester High, said he was thrilled with the program’s success, in particular mentioning the students’ dedication.

“They worked extremely hard,” he said. “They’re dedicated. So any way we can support them, we’re going to.”

Kwak said one of his goals with the program was to offer something to students who were not “the jocks who dominate the sports.”

Alex Woudard, a freshman, said he did not like sports like baseball or football because they were too slow.

“I started a few weeks ago because I watch this stuff on TV and I wanted to do it for real,” he said.

In the beginning, the club met once a week, with about five students. Kwak has done all of the organizing for the club, including fund-raising. Last winter, he went to business after business in town, asking for donations. In exchange, he offered to use the companies’ logos and mention them as sponsors in the club’s introductory brochure.

But beyond that, he did not have much to offer. That, coupled with his age, got him turned away frequently. Of about 100 businesses, 10 donated money. But Kwak slowly began to receive support.

Tom Defranzo Martial Arts, a local tae kwon do school, donated equipment. Kwak has developed a list of guest instructors like Siqueira. Robert Flint, a graduate of Winchester High who is a martial artist, donates his time several days a week.

“I thought it was a joke the first time I heard about it,” Flint said.

Kwak, who plans to stay involved with the club after he graduates, said his goal was for his group to compete with other clubs. He has reached out to Boston University’s mixed martial arts program to try to organize a meet.

The potential is there. Wrestling, vital to a complete game in mixed martial arts, is a sport in which Winchester High excels. Its wrestling team has gone 60-0 in the past two seasons.

And that means the so-called jocks have a place in the program, too. Brendan Cleary, a three-year member of the wrestling team, was one of the first students to sign up for the club and helps out with instructing.

In Siqueira’s class last month, he explained the process of training in mixed martial arts to the students circled around him.

“You don’t teach M.M.A., you teach the pieces,” he said.

He said the sport required skill in boxing, wrestling, submissions and kicking. He then taught a basic wrestling move, the shoot, but with a twist. He begins the technique with a punch to occupy the opponent’s hands.

At the end of the lesson, the students lined up and one at a time sparred with him. For the students, it was an opportunity to battle a world-class athlete.

“That’s perfect, there’s nothing you can do,” one student said in frustration as he sparred with Siqueira. From somewhere among the group of students watching came this response from Flint: “Could have something to do with him being a world champion.”

[sanjuro_ronin]

To succeed, a fighter must acquire the skills of four separate combat sports — boxing, wrestling, kick-boxing and submission grappling — and combine them.

best description of MMA.

At the end of the lesson, the students lined up and one at a time sparred with him. For the students, it was an opportunity to battle a world-class athlete.

“That’s perfect, there’s nothing you can do,” one student said in frustration as he sparred with Siqueira. From somewhere among the group of students watching came this response from Flint: “Could have something to do with him being a world champion.”

what itd all about, right there.

[TenTigers]

I liked this as well;

“You don’t teach M.M.A., you teach the pieces,”

[GeneChing]

This reiterates my post above - the NYT article is significant because of the tone and platform.
New York Times Article Marks a Big Step Forward for MMA Coverage (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/sports/basketball/High-School-MMA-and-Another-Step-Toward-Mainstream-Acceptance.html)
By Michael David Smith
Updated 2:13 PM PST, Tue, Nov 18, 2008

Mixed martial arts has gone far beyond the Ultimate Fighting Championship and is now found in high schools.

We've just witnessed a watershed moment for mixed martial arts, one that signals a major step toward mainstream acceptance as a legitimate sport.

I'm not talking about Brock Lesnar becoming a media darling in the wake of his victory over Randy Couture in Saturday night's heavyweight title match. I'm talking about an article that appeared on page B15 of today's New York Times.

The article, written by Justin Porter, profiles a high school mixed martial arts club in Winchester, Massachusetts, and in the process it does something extraordinary: It doesn't pontificate. The article simply just reports the facts of a high school MMA club and treats the sport and its participants with the respect they deserve.

If that doesn't sound extraordinary to you, then you haven't read much mainstream media coverage of MMA. Usually, when mainstream outlets write about the sport, they get facts wrong, attempt to portray MMA as sheer brutality, and start with the premise that their reader will be outraged by the sport's popularity among young people.

Porter's article is an increasingly rare type of newspaper article, one that provides a slice of life about news that isn't violent or lurid. It's the kind of sports article we don't see enough of in this age when newspaper staffs are shrinking. (And when the newspapers themselves are shrinking, as evidenced by the Times getting rid of its great Play sports magazine.

Those who read Porter's article will understand the simple truth that MMA is a safe sport. The MMA as practiced at Winchester High, where the students practice their submission moves against each other but only practice their punches and kicks against against pads, is certainly safer than high school football.

The most important part of the article is the way it keeps the focus on the participants themselves: Consider the freshman who explains that he likes MMA but doesn't like baseball or football because they're too slow. Those teenagers who love the fast pace of MMA are the reason this sport is here to stay.

There's still much more that an article about youth involvement in MMA could explore. Most significantly, this article mentions only male students involved in the MMA club and doesn't even seem to consider whether girls might want to be part of it -- perhaps overlooking the way MMA is growing quickly among female fans and increasingly attracting impressive female athletes. But as a first step toward informing readers about the growth of MMA among young people, the Times' article was impressive.