intent

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Guys!

What is the definition of intent in the internal arts?

How do you guys in the internal arts train "intent"?

Does intent help to read an attacker's intent to attack early before any physical movement is made?

How does one train mushin?

[Lucas]

Sorry no real comment from me at this point. however check out this thread, may have some discussion tid bits in there for you.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51588

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi kung fu fighter,

Intent is the mind utilizing the quality of Will to effect a change in a condition of being. Mind, or intent, always precedes action.

There is no “training” of Intent. Intent “IS” of its self. The mind knows how to intend because Intent is of the nature of the Mind. To think in terms of ‘training intent” is like drawing legs on a snake. It is a superfluous activity that only makes things more complicated than they need to be. You already know how to intend, to “try” or “intend to train to intend” only gums up an already smooth running process.

There are two ways to read another person’s intent, through the observation of physical signs and through intuition.

Physical signs are observed and then interpreted in light of our understanding of human psychology. That is, we combine what we observe in terms of physical actions, behaviors and attitudes and then evaluate that in accordance with our understanding of human psychology and the known psychology of the person in question. Then we arrive at a list of probabilities of what actions may be expected to occur.

Intuition probably includes the above, only it mostly occurs on a subconscious level, with the addition that intuition is not limited to observable information.

Mushin is not “no-mind” in the sense of absence of mind; mushin is the absence of discursive/linear thinking. There is a Mind behind the mind we consider our mind. It is the Mind from which “our mind” springs. This Mind is the Superset, so to speak, of the subset of what we commonly think of as “our mind”. The mind we think of as “our mind” is the discursive mind, the mind that thinks in words, concepts and symbols. The Mind behind the discursive mind is the True Mind, the Mind of mushin. The mushin mind is the source of true intuition, that is intuition that is not determined or influenced by objective observations.

One does not “train” mushin, one “practices” mushin! That is, we practice using our mind in a non-discursive manner. We think in words, concepts and symbols as a habit because we have been conditioned to use our mind in this manner. It is ingrained in us to such an extent that we normally do not consider that it is an artificial and arbitrary construct. We must re-learn how to use the “Mind of no-mind” because we are conditioned to use the “discursive mind”. We use the “discursive mind” so much we have forgotten how to use the “Mind of mushin”. So we must practice to use the “mind of mushin” in a manner similar to re-learning how to ride a bicycle or walk or eat. It is something we already know how to do; we have just forgotten how to do it, or we could say, "It is something we already do, we just don't recognize that we do it!"

So merely take some time during the day and practice, “no-mind”! Let go of discursive thought, or allow thoughts to flow without attaching attention to them, that is, without focusing or concentrating on them. Discursive thoughts come and go on their own, in a natural manner anyway without any effort on our part; they do this as part of their nature.

You may observe thoughts if you choose, however, do so without any attempt to attach your focus on them or to attach your focus on "not focusing" on them, and make no attempt to identify discursively what your mind is doing. Then the mind will "BE" in its natural state "of itself" without any "discursive" interference.

[bakxierboxer]

A reasonably complete explanation of the several states that can be involved can be found at:

http://****okai.com/newsletter/zen.php

DRAT! the censor doesn't like "Sh i to", you'll have to key in the correct characters in the url....
eg "no spaces".

I'd have preferred a TCMA format/source, but this seems to answer most questions.

[mixjourneyman]

Intent in xingyi: Intent is trained in several ways. You have to intend for your mind to focus on the area you are attacking, you have to intend to move the qi to the attacking extremity, and you have to put intent in the correct area of the body that is moving during the strike.
The way I practice intent while doing xingyi: Everything has to be in harmony, the mind sends out the attack at the same time as I focus on the qi at the end of the movement, at the same time, my body is doing what it needs to do depending on what element I am practicing (IE: Pao: heart, turn the chest, pi: lungs, focus on the rounding of the rib cage etc...).

[Ray Pina]

Maybe you can't "train" intent, but you can foster it. A huge breakthrough happened for me when I cracked a trout over the head with a rock. I wanted to put it out of its misery quickly.... and wow! I realized in fighting you have to go in for the kill to do the same for you and your opponent.

I'm mindless when I fight. Empty.... that's why I like it and hard training. But when I get into an opening, my mind is like, "Take that you motherf*$#^er." At that moment your intent needs to be to destroy. If its not, and the other's intent is more powerful than yours, even if he has less skill he can hurt you.

This won't be popular, but go kill something without a firearm. Then you'll understand intent.

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe you can't "train" intent, but you can foster it. A huge breakthrough happened for me when I cracked a trout over the head with a rock. I wanted to put it out of its misery quickly.... and wow! I realized in fighting you have to go in for the kill to do the same for you and your opponent.

I'm mindless when I fight. Empty.... that's why I like it and hard training. But when I get into an opening, my mind is like, "Take that you motherf*$#^er." At that moment your intent needs to be to destroy. If its not, and the other's intent is more powerful than yours, even if he has less skill he can hurt you.

This won't be popular, but go kill something without a firearm. Then you'll understand intent.

Hi Ray,

What you are referring to is commitment to a purpose and the use of a specific strategy and attitude in an effort to accomplish that purpose, all of which one must intend to do.

Intent is not the same thing as commitment, strategy or attitude. They spring FROM intent and 'yes', you can develop a successful attitude and strategy when you INTEND to do so. However, intention is an inherent quality of the mind. It is part of the installed software so to speak! You can have intent without commitment, strategy or attitude, but you cannot have these without intent.

The thought of "destroying your opponent" is one manner of focusing on your purpose, this produces aggression which can be harnessed to accomplish your purpose, but aggression can also interfere with judgment. Aggression, as an attitude of mind, is not required in order to succeed at ones purpose. A clear/empty mind, free of thoughts of success or failure, only focusing on the matter at hand, is better prepared to spontaneously respond to changing circumstances.

I have not observed the Gracie's fight since the early days of the octagon, so I do not know if they have taken on the crowd pleasing, testosterone based showmanship of modern fighting, however in the beginning you would have observed Royce quietly and humbly entering the ring. He performed dispassionately and detached from excessive emotionalism. He allowed his technique to speak for him, and he objectively applied his skills. When he finished he appeared as if it was just another day's work.

The goal is to intend success without attachment to the "need" to succeed. Responding quickly and forcefully to an opening, or a weakness in your opponent, does not require an aggressive mental attitude, only an open and responsive mind coupled with proper skill. This is the same attitude many Samurai worked to develop through the study of Zen.

We must also observe there is a difference between a physical display of aggressive action, which may occur absent an aggression focused mind ,and a mind filled with an aggressive/hostile attitude.

[Doc Stier]

The goal is to intend success without attachment to the "need" to succeed.
And yet, nonetheless, to intend success carries an attachment to the intended goal, in and of itself, regardless of whether or not a "need" to succeed is consciously acknowledged as well.

Where there is a perception of potential success to be achieved through conscious intention and effort, the opposite potential to realize failure is also presently perceived as a comparative opposite. There can be no perception of success without the perception of failure to compare it to.

True non-attachment is free of all perceptions, intentions and expectations regarding polar opposites, since no value judgements or personal discriminations are assigned to either.

Doc

[Scott R. Brown]

And yet, nonetheless, to intend success carries an attachment to the intended goal, in and of itself, regardless of whether or not a "need" to succeed is consciously acknowledged as well.

Where there is a perception of potential success to be achieved through conscious intention and effort, the opposite potential to realize failure is also presently perceived as a comparative opposite. There can be no perception of success without the perception of failure to compare it to.

True non-attachment is free of all perceptions, intentions and expectations regarding polar opposites, since no value judgments or personal discriminations are assigned to either.

Doc

Hi Doc,

I disagree!

According to your comments merely intending to drink a glass of water because I am thirsty would be a goal that creates an attachment. Attachment does not occur when I intend to drink a glass of water or because I am thirsty; attachment occurs when I get upset when I want to drink a glass of water and cannot do so. The emotion of discontent occurs because I based my happiness on achieving my goal of drinking a glass of water, NOT merely because I wanted one or even physically needed one.

When I am emotionally attached to achieving a drink of water and I cannot do so, my equanimity is impaired and I experience emotional discomfort. However in reality, I am able to recognize my thirst and intend to get a drink of water without attaching my emotions, my happiness, to achieving that goal. Therefore, I am free of attachment although I still possess the intent to drink a glass of water.

Physical actions and intent do not inherently create attachment; attachment is an act of the mind, it occurs when “emotional value” is attached to the achievement of a goal NOT when “objective value” is place upon achieving a goal. It is a rational decision to drink a glass of water when I am thirsty; it is an emotional decision when I get upset because I cannot have one.

What we must do is distinguish between objective value and emotional value. There is no clinging/attachment when objective intent or objective value is place upon a purpose or goal, it occurs only when emotional value is attached to that intent, purpose or goal and we allow that value to disturb our equanimity.

We always recognize polar opposites. There is no such thing as the extinguishing of polar opposites. If they did not exist, neither would you or I. Even those who claim to have had a transcendent experience of ONENESS never actually became entirely ONE with everything. What they experienced was the integration of ONE and MANY! If they actually experienced ONENESS there would be no experience to relate at all, this is because where there is ONENESS there is nothing/no one to experience it. There must be at least TWO in order for experience to occur. If they experienced ONENESS they would merge into the ONE and there would be no one to tell of the experience. If they merged with ONENESS and then once again separated they would not remember the experience because as ONE there is no one present to actually have an experience. So what occurs is, the interrelationship and interdependence of ONE and MANY is experienced and that experience is often misunderstood.

It is a misunderstanding to believe that the experience of ONENESS means that opposites disappear. There is nothing to experience when there are no apparent opposites. What actually occurs is, both ONE and MANY occur at the same time and are experienced as an integration of ONE and MANY.

Clinging or attachment does not necessarily occur just because we recognize opposites as existing. Clinging/attachment occurs when we attach an emotional preference to either Yin or Yang.

There is no inherent attachment when I choose/distinguish between drinking a glass of soda pop or a glass of water. All choices involve discrimination. Holy men generally do not walk into the sea, jump off of mountains, or sit in the middle of bonfires. They avoid these actions because they are counterproductive to their objective intentions. They are able to distinguish, discriminate, between actions that allow them to accomplish a purpose or goal and those that are counter-productive to their goals and they do so without emotional attachment to their actions.

So, one may intend to win in a grappling contest and also be free of the emotional attachment to winning or losing which obstructs our perception and judgment. When winning is an objective goal without any emotional attachment to either winning or losing, there is freedom to act spontaneously according to our intent or purpose.

[Doc Stier]

"....attachment is an act of the mind, it occurs when “emotional value” is attached to the achievement of a goal...."
Agreed. Quite so. :)

Hence, desire creates emotional attachment to the object of desire, which generates intentions to achieve gratification of the desire.

In this way, the intent to gratify any desire stems from emotional attachment. And most often, attachment to the object of desire remains whether the desire is successfully gratified or not, since success and failure may both perpetuate the desire. ;)

Doc

[brucereiter]

Maybe you can't "train" intent, but you can foster it. A huge breakthrough happened for me when I cracked a trout over the head with a rock. I wanted to put it out of its misery quickly.... and wow! I realized in fighting you have to go in for the kill to do the same for you and your opponent.

This won't be popular, but go kill something without a firearm. Then you'll understand intent.

hi ray,

some good ideas expressed there. i agree if ya smack the fish without the intention of killing it you get nowhere.

i think a big part of "intent" that is missing in common ima training is the intention to actually make contact and stop another person. people have a wishy washy kind of intent that will not further you towards being able to fight.

this is not to say you should hurt your training partner and not to say that you should not have cooperation at times in training but having a person who does not cooperate with you will make you better and help your intent.

[iron_leg_dave]

Training intent refers to cultivating a certain intention in your actions.

For example, doing your pi quan form with fighting intent.

Or doing your tai qi with relaxing the body intent.

It's really not a complex subject.

If I try to use my gong fu to attack you, with looking good intent, I probably won't hurt you unless it's an accident.

[imperialtaichi]

What is the definition of intent in the internal arts?

How do you guys in the internal arts train "intent"?

Does intent help to read an attacker's intent to attack early before any physical movement is made?



http://imperialtaichi.blogspot.com/2008/09/yi-intent.html

Cheers,
John

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks for the article John, i found it most interesting.

When i started this thread , i had experienced something that was phenomenal, i was able to tap into a part of my mind that was able to make instinctual split second decisions based on my peripheral vision on an unconcious level. It felt as though my concious mind was just an observer, witnessing everything that the subconcious mind was doing but not attached to it. It seems a though as soon as my subconcious mind felt danger my body magnetically/automatically sinked before doing anything. It seemed as though this part of my mind was choosing the correct techniques and footwork at the precise time it was needed. it was the closest that i ever came to mushin. just wondering if some of you ever experienced this, and how it can be duplicated.

any suggestions as to how to instantly tap into this subconcious mind or training methods/drills designed to transition into the subconcious at will?


thanks
Navin

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks for the article John, i found it most interesting.

When i started this thread , i had experienced something that was phenomenal, i was able to tap into a part of my mind that was able to make instinctual split second decisions based on my peripheral vision on an unconcious level. It felt as though my concious mind was just an observer, witnessing everything that the subconcious mind was doing but not attached to it. It seems a though as soon as my subconcious mind felt danger my body magnetically/automatically sinked before doing anything. It seemed as though this part of my mind was choosing the correct techniques and footwork at the precise time it was needed. it was the closest that i ever came to mushin. just wondering if some of you ever experienced this, and how it can be duplicated.

any suggestions as to how to instantly tap into this subconcious mind or training methods/drills designed to transition into the subconcious at will?


thanks
Navin

Your mind reacts to stimuli in one for or another.
In the book " A mind's eye", they talk about methods to make reaction as fast as action via visualization, repetitive drills even hypnosis.
It all works and it all fails.
Fcat is for some people everything works and for others, nothing, but if you have done it once, you can do it again.
Visualization is an often under looked and under valued training protocol.
Typically though, you want to put yourself in the situation you want to react/act insitinctive too as much as possible and as close to the real thinsg as possible and this is where it gets tricky because no matter how close to the real thing we get, we KNOW it isn't.
This is where visualization comes in.
Mushin or no-mind is not just reacting instinctively to a give situation, it is reacting and acting all at once or at least it seems that way since the reaction is actually based on an instinctive "tell" that no one else can see ( sometimes including ourselves) and as such it seems that we acted without though as opposed to reaction in a pre-programmed way ( or not reacting at all).

[Water Dragon]

I think that sometime, we martial artists love to make things a lot more complicated than they really are. If we replace the word 'intent' with 'focus', I think we get a pretty good idea what the old masters were talking about.

[imperialtaichi]

I think that sometime, we martial artists love to make things a lot more complicated than they really are. If we replace the word 'intent' with 'focus', I think we get a pretty good idea what the old masters were talking about.

There is a lot more to it than that.

If you consciously focus on a punch; while the punch would be very effective, you may be vulnerable on other parts of the body because you are ignoring the rest.

While you are focused on reading this post, are you aware of the sensations of the seat on your back? or the tightness of your shoes? or the watch on your wrist?

Your conscious awareness only represents a very small part of the complete picture. You body is continuosly receiving information and processing them and automatically making adjustment to the body. For example, you are not aware of your proprioception; but without the constant feedback you won't even be able to stand up!

Of course, if we are conciously aware of every bit of information that feeds through our senses we will simply get overloaded and break down. But if we can tap more into these senses, or have these information presented to us in a summarized form (may be "Qi" sensation? Intuition?) we will have a better chance to succeed.

That's why, learn to communicate with your Shen, and don't just rely on conscious focusing.

Cheers,
John

[Water Dragon]

I meant focus from a martial arts or sports perspective. Sorry, shoulda been more clear on that.

[imperialtaichi]

....It felt as though my concious mind was just an observer, witnessing everything that the subconcious mind was doing but not attached to it. It seems a though as soon as my subconcious mind felt danger my body magnetically/automatically sinked before doing anything....

Hello KFF,

Nice. This is how it should be. I like how you use the word "Magnetic" because this is exactly how I feel as well.

To a certain degree, everyone has a little natural ability of unifying Shen Yi Qi. The moment your opponents' Shen Yi Qi unites even a little is when they are most powerful/effective. And once you fully understand how your own Shen Yi Qi (subconscious, conscious, body) works together, you can work on your opponents' too and make them ineffective by disrupting their Shen Yi Qi connection.

How the opponents' own Shen Yi Qi works and how to disrupt it completely depends on the opponent. Everyone is different and we must learn to adapt. Hence the Tai Chi saying "因敵變化視神奇" "Change according to the opponent" applies not just to the opponents' physical force, but to the opponent's complete self.

Cheers,
John

[kung fu fighter]

That's why, learn to communicate with your Shen, and don't just rely on conscious focusing.Cheers,
John

How do you train to communicate with your shen? what methods do you use? what should your intention be on?

[iron_leg_dave]

How do you train to communicate with your shen? what methods do you use? what should your intention be on?

You are your shen.

If you "empty" your mind, atleast temporarily... what is left?

Awareness, that's you. The real you. That's shen. It feels/seems like if it is in the body, it is just behind the eyes, but sometimes also in the forehead. Thats why they say, it's location is the upper elixir field.

When you are aware of that, and the location, when that static air/tingling above the skin feeling/qi rises over the head and into that spot, it seems like you are moving around, even growing sometimes.

That's as far as I am. I couldn't tell you about other realms, or telepathy or fantastic experiences or some **** just what I said.

Now, if you are scared, or really worried, it seems like you aren't even in your body, or that your being is seperated/scattered. If you close your eyes, you can't find a center. All that is left then, in the body, according to experiential thinking, is the experiences, convinced that the collection of information and themselves are you.

You feel you, but not you at the same time.

"shen" is a traditional chinese word. This post is just one type of response from that perspective.

[iron_leg_dave]

How do you train to communicate with your shen? what methods do you use? what should your intention be on?

O.k also, you don't need intent or any special method. Just Zazen. While I do Chinese martial arts nowadays, I learned zazen at a judo school.

It is very simple, and if you google it, you can find it easily. That's all you really need, until you know you can really sit still (inside) quietly and relaxed but with a powerfully concentrated mind.

Concentrating on nothing is rediculous at first, but as nothing takes on almost substance, it becomes a little easier.

When you get to that point, then just finding good books is all you need. Really.
The warning they give really only applies to people that don't make it to that level and are trying to lead qi with intent.

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Iron Leg Dave,

Nice descriptions :)

Cheers,
John

[kung fu fighter]

thanks guys!