San Shou $$$ to Compete

[ngokfei]

Was wondering why San Shou tournaments are charging competitors so much.

Isn't it kind of double dipping since the event makes considerable $$ off of the spectators?:confused:

I was never charged anything to compete in amateur Boxing or Kickboxing events.

Do MMA charge their competitors $$, how much?

The average for San Shou seems to be between $75 and $100, and that is for the Novice as well as the Advanced.:eek:

so I'd recomend Beginners to seek out Boxing/Kickboxing venues to gain experience in the basics of striking.

[lkfmdc]

Most TCMA events offer you 2 to 3 FORMS events for like $60 but charge you $75 t0 $100 JUST to do San Shou.... seems like a ripp off :rolleyes:

It's yet another reason the sport is going no where. Fighters are tired of being taken for granted and being ripped off

[Andy Miles]

I think tournaments are by and large a rip off. Martial arts are extremely popular. You don't need to go to a tournament to play basketball, you also don't need a tournament for sparring.

Go visiting instructors and ask politely for sparring partners. Use the internet to find someone. There must be some place for martial artists to meet up and compete.

This is what I currently pay to compete.

1 cup- $15
1 mouthguard $5-20
Grappling gloves- got mine for 20 bucks, they go up to $75
5 cents to print off a liability form.

Assuming that you reuse your equipment, the costs of this divide everytime you spar.

Then if you do go to a tournament, the quality of the fighters will be better and people will actually want to watch. Right now, I could learn more about fighting by watching a river than most matches in the US. I certainly wouldn't pay to see it.

San shou itself is pretty lame. No joint locks, no ground game, no knees, no elbows. I used to compete in it, but whats the point? By the time you turn your kung fu into this sport, you could just have easilly have learned groundfighting and be competing in MMA, Pancrase, Sambo or another combat sport with more training relevence for kung fu.

[Pork Chop]

The highest charge here in san antonio for competing in amateur muay thai is the medical exam.
I guess they require blood work and a physical prior to competing.
My coach said it was a high cost, but didn't hear an exact number- probably in the ballpark of the san shou fee.

[MightyB]

I've always assumed that it was a insurance liability issue. Boxing and Kickboxing seem to have bigger crowds- so the promoter can pass the cost on to the spectators. The smaller crowds at Kung Fu and traditional Karate events means that the promoter has to pass the cost on to the participants.--- this is my assumption, I've never promoted a martial arts event so I can't know for sure.

[xcakid]

I have helped out arranging tournaments in the past while in CA, as well as organizing shooting competitions more recently here in TX.

I can tell you, the profit margin on full contact sports and any type deemed "dangerous" can be very thin. Sometimes outright loss.

The highest cost is insurance. Next is the **** paramedics that will charge anywhere from $100 upwards to $500 an hour. Now insuring a non to light contact tournament is much much cheaper. That is why these "open" tournaments pop up every week. Some state also require you to register with the amateur boxing commission if you are going to have an "organized" full contact fights with prizes(medals and trophies are considered prizes).

If I recall correctly, the last tournament I help organize(Late 80's or so). We paid nearly $5K for the liability insurance. Another $600-1000 for the paramedics. Then you have all the marketing cost. All of which are initial outlay prior to incoming cash. Back then we did not have the internet or email. So all marketing materials were printed and mailed. Now you have the cost of website and bandwidth. Suppose it kinda evens out.

The take can vary depending on attendance and spectators. So marketing is the key here. Also reputation of the promoter.

Money to be made. Absolutely if done right. Money lost, absolutely, if done incorrectly. There has to me a happy medium between being able to pay for the bills and pocketing something, and not overpricing yourself.

[lkfmdc]

I've promoted since 1994.... the only way to loose money is if you are a poor business person and don't do it properly, and COME ON! do you think these HUGE kung fu tournaments are losing money? :rolleyes:

The fact is that San Shou/fighting is sort of distained by the mainstream CMA community, and San Shou is the red headed step child. And so promoters try and milk them.....

[SimonM]

Which is why we get kung fu schools up this way that mainly compete in JJ and boxing tournaments... like mine.

[lkfmdc]

Which is why we get kung fu schools up this way that mainly compete in JJ and boxing tournaments... like mine.

It's why the REAL San Shou/San Da Gyms (the "Big 7") stopped dealing with the kung fu tournaments, ie guys who don't know anything about running a fighting sport and could care less about us....

Yet, they still rake in the cash from unsuspecting TCMA students who want to do "san shou" :rolleyes:

[SimonM]

Fair enough. My school seems to have also given up on Kung Fu tournaments for much the same reason. However we have a great program going for boxing and our JJ team has been winning some medals. I remember, YEARS back, we were doing some actual Kung Fu tournaments but they were doing point sparring and our school was having trouble with the format as we practiced more in a boxing / kick boxing format at that time... concentration on combos and duck/slip defense doesn't work well with tap and run fighting.

[lkfmdc]

We have Lama as a base, we would go to KF tournaments in the days of "point sparring" and get DQ'ed all the time... when NACMAF started doing San Shou in 94 we were thrilled.... until NACMAF became USA WKF and the crap started

We did some boxing, even had some semi-finalists in golden gloves, but found the format (especially for amateur) wasn't condusive to the skill sets we were trying to achieve.

Now we do san shou/san da when we can, lots of Muay Thai and MMA

[SimonM]

We are beginning to transition towards MMA competition. Right now we just have a few guys and mostly in their mid teens doing it. I am going to start when I drop the spare tires and get back into shape... starting up my JJ training again on Tuesday.

[Oso]

David, what does insurance run for your events?

[lkfmdc]

Depends upon rules, safety features, what equipment is used, sanctioning body and your RECORD as a promoter.... but to put in in perspective, I can insure a PROFESSIONAL MMA event with elbows, knees, and striking to the head on the grund for arund $1500. I've been boxed out of promoting in NY for a long time due to commission nonsense, but I used to pay around $600. Again, if you're a moron and can't get a show going and sell tickets, of course you can lose money.... but charging san shou competitors almost twice what the forms crowd is doign is just wrong

[Oso]

location is an issue for most. we're driving 8 hours to compete...NY is out of the question, much less the west coast, as we can't afford to fly just to fight.

a vicious circle I guess since san shou won't grow until it gets out of the regions it's in and spreads across the US and until then there won't be enough competition for any of us stuck out in the sticks to get enough better to venture out and spend the money to travel for better competition.

but, yea, they should not be charging full contact fighters as much as they are...enough to cover admin fees, maybe.

[Oso]

that's about what I figured it would be...in your experience would a strictly san shou event cost less since it's at most knees to the body while standing?

[lkfmdc]

that's about what I figured it would be...in your experience would a strictly san shou event cost less since it's at most knees to the body while standing?

today, insurers are willing to insure MMA, but want you to pay for it. So doing an amateur KB event with head gear, shin pads, etc is very "low risk" for them for the turn over in fees. Plus, I should have mentioned, if you are a school owner with an existing policy you can also get a ryder (sp?) for the insurance which is even cheaper!

You SHOULD travel, we always did, we still do! If you want to be a fighter, if you want to get better, you should go to where the fights are

August 3rd for example is teh US Open San da at Mohegan Sun Casino in CT, you can make a nice vacation out of it as well

[Oso]

today, insurers are willing to insure MMA, but want you to pay for it. So doing an amateur KB event with head gear, shin pads, etc is very "low risk" for them for the turn over in fees. Plus, I should have mentioned, if you are a school owner with an existing policy you can also get a ryder (sp?) for the insurance which is even cheaper!

yea, I figured that too.


You SHOULD travel, we always did, we still do! If you want to be a fighter, if you want to get better, you should go to where the fights are

I totally agree. However, the budget doesn't. It's not like we don't want to.

August 3rd for example is teh US Open San da at Mohegan Sun Casino in CT, you can make a nice vacation out of it as well

I wish. but that would end up being 300-400 per person if we drove and that's a bit far to drive in a day.

I'd like to have an event down here in 1-2 years. With Chris H.'s students and the few from the CACMA group that would compete I think we could get something going...

[xcakid]

I can insure a PROFESSIONAL MMA event with elbows, knees, and striking to the head on the grund for arund $1500.


That is pretty cheap. You know if they do shooting competitions? Can you give me the name of the insurance company? PM it to me perhaps.

[SanShou Guru]

We are looking into doing "smokers" at our new gym in Boston (Cambridge actually). If we did it would be no charge for the fighters and about $10 for spectators. Our gym insurance would cover the event and there would be no prizes. As a promoter I would never charge the fighters (they would have to pay their own license fee if needed). I believe, at least with the USKBA, if you pay their sanctioning fee they insure the event. You would not make $1 if it was not for the fighters. We hope to hold some more events in the Boston area in the next few years.

IKFMDC has run some nice events and the fighters were well treated. The events were packed as well.

[lkfmdc]

IKFMDC has run some nice events and the fighters were well treated. The events were packed as well.

NY was great for San Shou/San Da for a long time, then the commission shut us down for three years as part of the campaign to kill MMA here :rolleyes:

We eventually got permission to do AMATEUR events, but no professional, killing the pro league we were just getting started. :mad:

Then, because there are always *******s in the world, some idiots started doing illegal undeground MMA fights and the commission started threatening venues if they rented to martial arts events of any kind. We lost the PAL gym, which we used to PACK :mad:

California, the other mecca of san shou/san da , where Cung used to do his events, is worse, even amateur San Shou/San Da is illegal there now.... :mad: