Why there's so much MMA on KFO

[MightyB]

I can only talk from my own experience, but I view all the MMA on KFM as a good thing. I believe that it's positive for the world of kung fu to be challenged by MMA because it helps to break through the dogma that stagnated kung fu for the last 70 or so years.

I have two missed opportunities that I think other people can learn from since I've been involved in kung fu for a long time and have seen a lot of positive changes because of these types of discussions we see on KFM.

In the early 90's, the first UFC came out and shook the world. I could see then that I needed more grappling training. I was wary of all of the new BJJ schools that popped up (I was correct in assuming they were fake), but I was extremely interested in Judo way back then because I figured the instructors were legit. I was discouraged because cross training wasn't an accepted concept in TCMA (crosstraining other styles of TCMA was ok, but not with Martial Arts of other cultures). I missed the opportunity to be way ahead of where I'm at in Judo now cuz I would have started many, many years ago.

Also, around this same time, a legit Muay Thai boxer opened a gym in my area. He claimed he could get anybody ready for the ring who was serious about it in 3 years or less. I was interested in San Shou even then, but again cross training in other martial cultures was discouraged.

Fast forward a bunch of years. Look at the attitude that's being adopted now. Cross training is becomming a norm. We still have a lot of opposition as we see on the board, but it's no longer so taboo for a guy to mix arts, even in the TCMA world. I think KFM is helping because people are reading these discussions and they are taking them seriously. Kung Fu has to be effective to survive. It has to be effective in today's reality, not just 1800's fuedal China's.

I don't regret my Kung Fu training, and my instructor is very open and accepting now of other schools of thought, but I can't help but believe that I would be way more ahead of where I'm now if I would've started cross training in my late teens rather than waiting till my late 20's.

Anyway- MK and LKMFDC make a lot of good points if you're willing to listen, and it doesn't hurt to be open to other concepts in fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is real kung fu and TMA but cross training and MMA ?

Nothing lives in a vacum, certainly not MA.

Fact is, the MMA ruleset is the best we have right now in terms of testing your overall MA skills.

Period.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Which is basically a big blowharded way of saying Kung Fu sux and you won't get any skills if you don't learn BJJ and Muy Thai. :rolleyes:

Sorry, heard it all before, and I am not impressed...

[MightyB]

Which is basically a big blowharded way of saying Kung Fu sux and you won't get any skills if you don't learn BJJ and Muy Thai. :rolleyes:

Sorry, heard it all before, and I am not impressed...

Not necessarily...

I think there's a way that TCMA can be very effective. I could sum it up like this: "Drill like a wrestler, train like a Thai boxer".

[MasterKiller]

Which is basically a big blowharded way of saying Kung Fu sux and you won't get any skills if you don't learn BJJ and Muy Thai. :rolleyes:

Sorry, heard it all before, and I am not impressed...

MMA = Ti Da Shuai Na.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And this is not KFO, it is KFM.

This stopped being KFO when the magazine took over back like 10 years ago now.

They still have no forum, but you can go here for thier site

http://www.kungfuonline.com/

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Not necessarily...

I think there's a way that TCMA can be very effective. I could sum it up like this: "Drill like a wrestler, train like a Thai boxer".

Reply]
Which is also a way of saying Kung Fu suxors and you must "Drill like a blah, blah, blah, blah f you want real skillz because Kung Fu won't do it for you.

Why not just train old school Kung Fu like old school Kung Fu is trained.

If you don't like it, go to Sherdog.

[MasterKiller]

And this is not KFO, it is KFM.

This stopped being KFO when the magazine took over back like 10 years ago now.

They still have no forum, but you can go here for thier site

http://www.kungfuonline.com/

Yeah, and this isn't the gold bullion, women problems, price of oil, stock tips forum either. So, STFU already.

Why not just train old school Kung Fu like old school Kung Fu is trained. Some might argue, reasonably so, that MMA is a return to the old method.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which is basically a big blowharded way of saying Kung Fu sux and you won't get any skills if you don't learn BJJ and Muy Thai. :rolleyes:

Sorry, heard it all before, and I am not impressed...

Bite me forms boy !
:p

If that is what you got from my post than I ask you this, what system Kung Fu or any other TMA is 100% original and not based on a "mixing" of some other systems?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

At least those topics are not 1998 looking for its "Wake up call" thread again. :rolleyes:

This has gotten to the point that they are now beating the horses ghost to death and resurrecting it only to beat it to death again.


If you love BJJ and Muy Thai so much, by all means, go do that. But stop coming here with the Kung Fu sux only BJJ and MT are worthwhile.

No matter how "polite"you phrase your insults, it's still an insult.

[MasterKiller]

At least those topics are not 1998 looking for its "Wake up call" thread again. :rolleyes:


At least MMA is martially related. Take your off topic posts to Yahoo finances or something and quit whining.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yeah, and this isn't the gold bullion, women problems, price of oil, stock tips forum either. So, STFU already.

Some might argue, reasonably so, that MMA is a return to the old method.


Reply]
I was saying that 10 years ago.

It does not change that you don't need to go to MMA, or reference MMA, or even bring MMA into the subject to have solid Kung Fu fighting skillz; nor do you need to imply that Kung FU Sux and only MMA is any good with every 3rd sentence.

We get it, you like whatever it is you do, now go do it and stop insulting everyone who doesn't already.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

At least MMA is martially related. Take your off topic posts to Yahoo finances or something and quit whining.


Reply]
It's not Kung Fu related, and infact you can't have a single post on a thread, where MMA is mentioned, that some sort of direct or sideways insult on TCMA isn't launched also.

You want to insult Kung Fu on a KUNG FU FORUM, I say go **** Your self.

[MasterKiller]

I was saying that 10 years ago. Why don't you practice what you preach, then?

It does not change that you don't need to go to MMA, or reference MMA, or even bring MMA into the subject to have solid Kung Fu fighting skillz; nor do you need to imply that Kung FU Sux and only MMA is any good with every 3rd sentence.

We get it, you like whatever it is you do, now go do it and stop insulting everyone who doesn't already.

MMA is a method, probably the best method, that can be used to solidify your kung fu FIGHTING skills. If your Kung Fu training does not prepare you well enough to compete in an MMA-environment where other styles can and will test your weaknesses, it's flowery punches and embroidery kicks.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why don't you practice what you preach, then?



MMA is a method, probably the best method, that can be used to solidify your kung fu FIGHTING skills. If your Kung Fu training does not prepare you well enough to compete in an MMA-environment where other styles can and will test your weaknesses, it's flowery punches and embroidery kicks.

Reply]
See, that whole thing you just wrote is insulting. You are acting like Kung Fu sx and you must go to the al mighty (Cue heavenly music) *MMA!!* to solve the imaginary problem.

In reality, there is no problem. You just like MMA and feel the need to bludgeon everyone else with your interests.

Real Kung Fu preps you to fight just fine. Your precious MMA has a CHINESE SAN SHOU guy holding a title. You don't see any MMA peopel holding San shou titles, do you?

It seems if you want to have the skillz, you are better off doing Chinese arts than anything else, so shut the F up.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Why don't you practice what you preach, then?

Reply]
Who says i don't?

[MasterKiller]

Reply]
See, that whole thing you just wrote is insulting. You are acting like Kung Fu sx and you must go to the al mighty (Cue heavenly music) *MMA!!* to solve the omaginary problem.

In reality, there is no problem. you just like MMA and feel the need to bludgeon everyone else with your interests.

Real Kung Fu preps you to fight just fine. Your precious MMA has a CHINESE SAN SHOU guy holding a title. You don't see any MMA ppeopel holding Sann shou titles, do you?

It seems if you want to have the skillz, you are better off doing Chinese arts than anything else, so shut the F up.

LOL! What a maroon!

A guy with 2 years of kung fu training as a kid, 8 years of wrestling in highschool and college, and a black belt in TKD is the CHINESE San Shou CHAMPION! Cung Le is the eptiome of MMA!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Cung Le has been doing CHINESE SAN SHOU longer than anything else he's ever done.

It nice and convinent that you ignor that ELEPHANT in the room.

I didn't see him wrestle in his fights. I saw plenty of sweet Chinese Kung Fu though.

[MasterKiller]

It nice and convinent that you ignor that ELEPHANT in the room.

The elephant in the room is that his San Shou training is closer to MMA training than you would like to admit.

[SimonM]

Why not just train old school Kung Fu like old school Kung Fu is trained.


So you are practicing ma bu for an hour a day?
Do you build a lei tai and challenge others to fight you?
Do you resolve grudges with duels?
Do you wander from town to town making a pittance selling patent medicine and performing feats of skill between some bouts of banditry and or mercenary work?

Because what Master Killer, and Ross, and I (and I think Gene has said it too) have been saying is that other than this stuff a lot of "new" MMA pedagogy IS the "old school Kung Fu" way.

The old wude lifestyle is not compatible with modern life. Move with the times doesn't necessarily mean abandon kung fu but it does mean adopting modern pedagogy when it is appropriate.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Blow me!

All the nonsesne you just mentioned has nothing to do with Kung Fu at all, it's juts silly stories you make up form Shaw Bros movies to justify your pathetic need to attack something you don't appear to have an interest in.

Real Kung fu schools do just fine. The old school way has plenty of fully resisting fighting and fight skill training. We don't need *MMA* to come in and promote themselves at our expense.

You guys allways trivialise, or rediculize Kung Fu by injecting these movie derived fantisies that have nothing to do with what goes on in an actual KF school.

It's an attack on kung fu, an attempt to delegitmize it, which is ALWAYS followed by a direction to MMA, which is held up as the only legitimate, credible practice.

It's like a flowcharted formula. We had better scripts when I was telemarketing 20 years ago.

[SimonM]

So, since it's not the "shaw brothers" stuff you are talking about as "old school kung fu" but it's also not resistive drills and full-contact sparring you are talking about what, pray, is "old school kung fu" according to you and how does it differ from what the syncretist group advises?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, since it's not the "shaw brothers" stuff you are talking about as "old school kung fu" but it's also not resistive drills and full-contact sparring you are talking about what, pray, is "old school kung fu" according to you and how does it differ from what the syncretist group advises?


Reply]
Again with the degrading assumptions.


Old School KungFu Is:

-Heavy basics and conditioning

-Heavy on skill development drills

-Heavy on two man application (compliant to full resisting), strategy and practical use exercises, focused on the styles over all methodology and implementation.

-Competition testing in Kuo Shou, or San Shou for modern times, or erecting Letai's and full on no rules fighting in ancient times.

-Use in real environments, like body guard or caravan protection services in ancient times, and occupations such as local law enforcement, special tactical units and military today.

Example, I know a traditional Tai Chi teacher who had US Navy Seals learning his TRADITIONAL Tai Chi fighting methods. One of my old teachers was a Cook County sheriff assigned to a special unit that reclaimed Bail jumpers (Bounty hunters are not used in IL.)

-Forms taught last as advanced body mechanics exercises and methods of final refinement as well as documentation of the curriculum, OR taught at the end of a unit or level to officiate the completion of that level only after all other skills of said level have been developed to proficiency (IE you can fight).

[MightyB]

The elephant in the room is that his San Shou training is closer to MMA training than you would like to admit.

A good TCMA lesson on San Shou
http://www.wushu.org/eng/sanda.php

[MightyB]

But MK is correct. San Shou is and was always MMA
http://www.wushu.org/eng/sanda.php

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The Whampoa military instructors studied the existing Chinese martial arts traditions and created San Shou. The military San Shou curriculum, designed to prepare military personnel for CQC, addressed what the Chinese had long considered the four basic martial arts skills;

"Da" (Striking) use of fist, open hand, elbow, fingers, head

"Ti" (Kicking) kicking, sweeping, kneeing, stomping

"Shuai" (Throw) wrestling, throwing, takedowns

"Na" (Seizing) joint locks and chokes, i.e. submissions

Reply]
And there you go.

[TenTigers]

Tools is Tools, Training is Training. Period. Most TCMA guys have embraced the concept that they have to evolve, and that they are going to have to include a ground game in their skills if they want to prepare for what they are now going to be facing on the street.
Do they have to become "Un-Chinese" in their training, and incorperate Muay Thai and BJJ? No. There are Shuai-Jiao people out there who include groundwork in their repitoire, you just need to find the right people. If you examine Joi Bot Sien-many of those techniques are in there-BUT-do you have the eye and knowledge to find it? You might have to go outside to find what is inside.
Some might argue otherwise, fine. It doesn't really matter to me.
On the subject of Muay Thai-face it-they have a simple direct, and powerful tyechnique. But it's simply learning tools. If your style has a roundhouse kick, there is nothing wrong with learning a more effective method of deploying your weapons, and incorperating it into your fighting. It does not water down your Kung-Fu. How can adding more technique, weaken your skills?
One of my teachers, Sifu Chow, is in his seventies. Real old school, was friends with CTS, even was awarded the same National Treasure Scroll from China. Teaches me Hung Kuen, Shuai-Jiao, iron palm, and some medicine, and also studied Tai Shing Pek Kwa under gen Duk-Hoi. His creds go on and on. Head of Guangzhao Medical orgs, Martial arts orgs, yadda-yadda.
It don't get any more old school than this old man. Now, check this out: He incorperates roundhouses, and other kicks in his Hung Kuen. Why? Because he says that you need to always develop yourself and your skills. If Southern styles don't practice other kicks, they won't be able to defend against them. He has no problem adding techniques into his teaching if he thinks they are effective tools.
He is in his seventies and still evolving.
Frankly, on this forum, I really don't think there are many people who feel that all you need is forms and sets and you can fight. Sure those guys exist, but the larpers and such usually come from made-up systems. The guys who devote themselves to learning and UNDERSTANDING TCMA, usually are the ones who are open to change and evolution. They UNDERSTAND that TCMA was always growing, always taking from what's around them, always MMA.

Wong Fei-Hung-took Siu-Lum, Fujien Bak-Hok, Hop-Ga, and other systems and incorperated into his Siu-Lum to create Guongdong Hung-Ga.

Tung Hai-Chuan took masters from different styles and taught them his eight mother palms and circle walking theories and they incorperated into thier respective arts.

Lum Wing-Fay incorperated what he learned from Lee Siem and Chung Yel Jung to create his version of SPM

Shaolin Temple was a melting pot-the "original Shaolin Art" was the result of many styles being sythesized into a core art.

Yang Lu-Chan combined his Shaolin art with Chen Family boxing.

Tools is Tools, Training is Training. Period

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Whampoa military instructors studied the existing Chinese martial arts traditions and created San Shou. The military San Shou curriculum, designed to prepare military personnel for CQC, addressed what the Chinese had long considered the four basic martial arts skills;

"Da" (Striking) use of fist, open hand, elbow, fingers, head

"Ti" (Kicking) kicking, sweeping, kneeing, stomping

"Shuai" (Throw) wrestling, throwing, takedowns

"Na" (Seizing) joint locks and chokes, i.e. submissions

Reply]
And there you go.

Thanks for making everyone's point.

[TenTigers]

I think everyone here, for the most part is on the same page.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Tools is Tools, Training is Training. Period. Most TCMA guys have embraced the concept that they have to evolve, and that they are going to have to include a ground game in their skills if they want to prepare for what they are now going to be facing on the street.
Do they have to become "Un-Chinese" in their training, and incorperate Muay Thai and BJJ? No. There are Shuai-Jiao people out there who include groundwork in their repitoire, you just need to find the right people. If you examine Joi Bot Sien-many of those techniques are in there-BUT-do you have the eye and knowledge to find it? You might have to go outside to find what is inside.
Some might argue otherwise, fine. It doesn't really matter to me.
On the subject of Muay Thai-face it-they have a simple direct, and powerful tyechnique. But it's simply learning tools. If your style has a roundhouse kick, there is nothing wrong with learning a more effective method of deploying your weapons, and incorperating it into your fighting. It does not water down your Kung-Fu. How can adding more technique, weaken your skills?
One of my teachers, Sifu Chow, is in his seventies. Real old school, was friends with CTS, even was awarded the same National Treasure Scroll from China. Teaches me Hung Kuen, Shuai-Jiao, iron palm, and some medicine, and also studied Tai Shing Pek Kwa under gen Duk-Hoi. His creds go on and on. Head of Guangzhao Medical orgs, Martial arts orgs, yadda-yadda.
It don't get any more old school than this old man. Now, check this out: He incorperates roundhouses, and other kicks in his Hung Kuen. Why? Because he says that you need to always develop yourself and your skills. If Southern styles don't practice other kicks, they won't be able to defend against them. He has no problem adding techniques into his teaching if he thinks they are effective tools.
He is in his seventies and still evolving.
Frankly, on this forum, I really don't think there are many people who feel that all you need is forms and sets and you can fight. Sure those guys exist, but the larpers and such usually come from made-up systems. The guys who devote themselves to learning and UNDERSTANDING TCMA, usually are the ones who are open to change and evolution. They UNDERSTAND that TCMA was always growing, always taking from what's around them, always MMA.

Wong Fei-Hung-took Siu-Lum, Fujien Bak-Hok, Hop-Ga, and other systems and incorperated into his Siu-Lum to create Guongdong Hung-Ga.

Tung Hai-Chuan took masters from different styles and taught them his eight mother palms and circle walking theories and they incorperated into thier respective arts.

Lum Wing-Fay incorperated what he learned from Lee Siem and Chung Yel Jung to create his version of SPM

Shaolin Temple was a melting pot-the "original Shaolin Art" was the result of many styles being sythesized into a core art.

Yang Lu-Chan combined his Shaolin art with Chen Family boxing.

Tools is Tools, Training is Training. Period

Cross training and mixing MA has ALWAYS been the TRADITIONAL way of training.
MMA is TMA training.

[MightyB]

Tools is Tools, Training is Training. Period

And now we HAVE to deal with groundfighting and real fighters with experience. We have to take MMA and BJJ seriously.

There's another reason for San Shou that you won't find printed anywhere... but... it goes something like this: The Chinese sent a team of fighters to fight Thai fighters in a competition not unlike the modern day SE Asian Games. The Thais demolished the Chinese team in full-contact competition. Having lost face, the Chinese decided they had to adapt to the realities of fighting Thai Fighters in the ring... the result was San Shou.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

None of this requires ANY imput from BJJ or Muy Thai.

None of this has anything to do with MMA people coming on here and insulting CMA practitioners with a bunch of made up nonsensical fantasies that have no basis in reality, and then concluding TCMA is useless without an infusion of MT/BJJ cross training.

TCMA DOES NOT need BJJ and MT to develop fighting skills. It is not deficient, it is not lacking and it is not some empty roll playing game in need of the MMA world to educate it.

If you come from an old school Kung Fu sifu, there is NOTHING a BJJ or MT boxer can give you that you are not already getting at home. It's about time these people just get off thier high horse and mind thier own back yard.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And now we HAVE to deal with groundfighting and real fighters with experience. We have to take MMA and BJJ seriously.

There's another reason for San Shou that you won't find printed anywhere... but... it goes something like this: The Chinese sent a team of fighters to fight Thai fighters in a competition not unlike the modern day SE Asian Games. The Thais demolished the Chinese team in full-contact competition. Having lost face, the Chinese decided they had to adapt to the realities of fighting Thai Fighters in the ring... the result was San Shou.

Reply]
San Shou is still made up primarily if Chinese Kung Fu. They just went back to the old school ways of training it, and added a few modern upgrades, like viynal dipped sparring gear.

[TenTigers]

I think the breakdown is something like this:
TCMA folks who are serious about their training,evolving, etc-70%
LARPERS-15%
Nutriders-15%
It's just that the other guys are a heluva lot more vocal and obnoxious

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That makes sense. The 70% STFNHUP and train.

[SimonM]

Reply]
Again with the degrading assumptions.



I believe the assumption - that saying MMA is GOOD equates to saying that traditional kung fu is bad - is the faulty assumption. This is what I've been trying to get across to you.


Old School KungFu Is:

-Heavy basics and conditioning


Check - also done by most MMA coaches.


-Heavy on skill development drills


Vague. What do you mean by skill development drills?


-Heavy on two man application (compliant to full resisting), strategy and practical use exercises, focused on the styles over all methodology and implementation.


Here we disagree. Compliant drilling is of VERY limited use. As soon as somebody CAN execute a technique compliantly with any level of success they should cease drilling that technique compliantly.


-Competition testing in Kuo Shou, or San Shou for modern times, or erecting Letai's and full on no rules fighting in ancient times.


The argument that you seem to have been arguing against is that there is largely no significant difference between san shou and MMA so that doesn't support your hypothesis that strongly. As for "full on no rules fighting" I'm strongly in favour of that as a training technique. Unfortunately police and the courts tend to disagree.


-Use in real environments, like body guard or caravan protection services in
ancient times, and occupations such as local law enforcement, special tactical units and military today.

Ok... so mercenary work and banditry. Well you know my position on that.


-Forms taught last as advanced body mechanics exercises and methods of final refinement as well as documentation of the curriculum, OR taught at the end of a unit or level to officiate the completion of that level only after all other skills of said level have been developed to proficiency (IE you can fight).

My position on forms is something I have discussed at length on other threads. It doesn't need to be rehashed.

[SimonM]

I think everyone here, for the most part is on the same page.

Yep. Some people just don't want to admit that MMA might ALSO be right.

[MightyB]

Pioneering Grandmaster Qian Yuanze:

"When it comes to mixed martial arts, sanda's rules state that when you fall, you lose, so there aren't any ground-fighting skills needed. We need to develop more ground-fighting skills to catch up with MMA fights. I estimate it won't take long for China to develop some good ground-fighting skills. There are some clubs in China starting to train MMA, too."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=749

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

And now we HAVE to deal with groundfighting and real fighters with experience. We have to take MMA and BJJ seriously.

reply]
Cung Le went into MMA, and fought EXACTLY like he fights san shou. His anti take down skills from resisting throws and take down attempts in San Shou worked just fine in MMA.

He demeostraighted no Ground skills at all because no one successfully took him down long enough to do any BJJ on him.

So apparently BJJ and MT are not the threat they make themselves out to be. Which make thier constant assaults on us even more annoying.

They "Paint" us in a light that is not a real reflection of what we are, and then debate that fantasy as if it was real. It's just a psychological marketing tactic that is not really any different than the brain washing methods cults like OYD use so successfully...and everyone falls into it like any other cult.

[lkfmdc]

Why not just train old school Kung Fu like old school Kung Fu is trained.



I never realized the masters of old learned forms from video tapes :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Cung's school teaches BJJ. LOL.

[TenTigers]

I never realized the masters of old learned forms from video tapes :rolleyes:

How many legends have we heard of and movies that we've seen where the guy finds the secret manuscript, or learns from the secret cave paintings, and presto-change-o, a Master is born.

Doshin-so said he vistited the Shaolin Temple and was inspired by the frescos on the walls to create Shorinji-Kempo.

People are going to have a twisted view of reality, and all it takes is for something to feed it. They see the above examples as validation.

[MightyB]

Pioneering Grandmaster Qian Yuanze:

"When it comes to mixed martial arts, sanda's rules state that when you fall, you lose, so there aren't any ground-fighting skills needed. We need to develop more ground-fighting skills to catch up with MMA fights. I estimate it won't take long for China to develop some good ground-fighting skills. There are some clubs in China starting to train MMA, too."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=749

Pioneering Grandmaster Qian Yuanze:

"When it comes to mixed martial arts, sanda's rules state that when you fall, you lose, so there aren't any ground-fighting skills needed. We need to develop more ground-fighting skills to catch up with MMA fights. I estimate it won't take long for China to develop some good ground-fighting skills. There are some clubs in China starting to train MMA, too."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=749

[MasterKiller]

So apparently BJJ and MT are not the threat they make themselves out to be. Which make thier constant assaults on us even more annoying.

No one ever says MT and BJJ are the only ways. San Shou is a fine stand up art. My own student won a cage fight using San Shou because that's our stand-up base. He head-kicked a boxer and stunned him, but then finished him with a guillotine choke. BJJ is not the only ground system -- freestyle and greco wrestling, Sambo, Judo, etc. all provide legitmate ground skills.

[SimonM]

Perhaps the miscommunication is that RD thinks MMA and immediately goes MT+BJJ.

The fact that nobody else is making that assumption may be where the breakdown is.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I believe the assumption - that saying MMA is GOOD equates to saying that traditional kung fu is bad - is the faulty assumption.

Reply]
It is not an assumption, it's WRITTEN in just about every pro MMA thread on this board over, and over again. Even when the poster is trying to "Appear" nice, he's still implying digs at Kung Fu.

This is what I've been trying to get across to you.

Reply]
Then why is it that you always see these pro MMA posts and threads (Like this topic) that CANNOT promote MMA without somehow maligning Kung Fu?

It's like someone is handing out scripts and flowcharts and everyone else is reading them verbetum. THAT is what I am trying to get across to YOU.

You MMA types have made a career out of generating false pictures of what Kung fu is, and using that LIE to compare and promote your MMA.

I could care less wabout the MMA way, it's similarities or differences to Kung Fu. What i am upset about is the CONSTANT dissing of Kung Fu EVERY time MMA is brought up.

It's really gotten old now, and I really fail to see how MMA has ANY superiority to Kung Fu at all.

[Pork Chop]

Reply]
Real Kung Fu preps you to fight just fine. Your precious MMA has a CHINESE SAN SHOU guy holding a title. You don't see any MMA peopel holding San shou titles, do you?


Umm, you don't see a whole lot of pure traditionalists holding san shou titles either....

Actually, "Bad" Brad Burrick is a MMA fighter who holds/held major titles in amateur san shou and san da. He came up in a non-chinese traditional style with some judo background. He did mma before he did san shou. He competes mainly in MMA now and I believe is a pro.

In the old days it was all about the fighting.
You stayed with your master if he still had stuff left to teach you & always supported him out of loyalty. If he thought it appropriate, he may send you off to someone else if they had something useful for you to learn. People were more worried about developing their own skill & being able to fight better, versus waving the banner of some style.

As others have said, if the old masters were alive today they'd be looking for the guys with the most fights and the highest level of skill to see what they could pick up from them.
This is mma (and sport fighting) at it's very heart.

At first you had Gracie Barra and the Lion's Den as hot spots to train. Then Brazillian Top Team & Chute Box. Then Milletech and Team Quest. These days it's Greg Jackson's camp and the American Top Team crew. Different techniques are becoming popular, strategies & training methodologies are evolving. Guys like Jeremy Horn or GSP, who bounce around a lot, greatly resemble some of the old masters in their quest to improve their skill.

At the very least people fought, and often fought in public.
The ones that fight are very open minded & respectful in my experience; always looking for some way to improve.
I've never met a san shou person who bashed mma or waved the san shou banner to the exclusion of all else.
If you look online you can see clips of Thai trainers training Chinese san shou people in mainland China; because the Chinese wanted to improve their own skill any way that they could.

Closing your mind is definitely NOT the mindset of a fighter, which is what sets off red flags to certain people who do fight about people who just claim to.
A lot of "us mma folks" come here to contribute and give our view points.
I have a lot of friends here that I like to chat with.
If anything I'd like to see the good within kung fu promoted & expanded upon, but a lot of times it's just not worth putting up with the BS.
I don't think you're in any position to be telling anyone who can or cannot come to KFM.

I quit going to a kung fu school coz I got real tired of being told not to do/train sport fighting, as if the results of my competition, the intensity of my training, and the experience I would gain would somehow be a great detriment to the school. Granted, my focus was slipping off of lion dance & forms competitions, but I wasn't giving them up completely.

These days I still bust out some taiji before i do a muay thai workout - to get my breathing right, to relax myself, and to prepare my body for a tough workout.
I still use a lot of the sensitivity & "tricks" I gained from countless hours of taiji push hands training in my early days of kung fu.
I still do kung fu/wushu style warm up kicks to improve my flexibility.
I'll use centerline theory when I'm trying to stop a guy punching at me with my push kick - to stop his momentum.
I even still use kung fu breathing (to the dan tien) to keep me going in hard workouts.

What about kung fu "sounds" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMqV8FtA1-c)? You see close cousins of them in boxing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvE4-yXJBFo) and muay thai. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmzvTo1NsWQ)

Bet you'd never think you'd see a sow choy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqf42bsTXnY) from Chuck Liddell, huh?

I think the sport fighting mindset is a lot more "correct", a lot more geared to producing a good fighter, than the "traditional" mindset. Sport fighters will take anyone else's idea, even if it's ugly, as long as they can make it work. Traditional mindset is very resistant to change, which is funny because the tradition it's trying to carry on originally had a much different mindset.

So, while you may see some traditional-looking techniques in sport fights, it's not the traditional training environment/mindset that got them there.

Fighting is fighting; shouldn't matter where it came from if it works; should be able to provide concrete evidence of it working if it works.

[lkfmdc]

Umm, you don't see a whole lot of pure traditionalists holding san shou titles either....



A TCMA person has NEVER beaten a fighter from one of the "Big 7" San Shou/San Da programs. That is a truth that has remained constant for more than a decade.

Big 7" San Shou/San Da programs, which are MMA programs, have DOMINATED US San Shou/San Da and continue to do so

[1bad65]

BJJ is not the only ground system -- freestyle and greco wrestling, Sambo, Judo, etc. all provide legitmate ground skills.

True. Somehow RD has missed this fact.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the sport fighting mindset is a lot more "correct", a lot more geared to producing a good fighter, than the "traditional" mindset. Sport fighters will take anyone else's idea, even if it's ugly, as long as they can make it work. Traditional mindset is very resistant to change, which is funny because the tradition it's trying to carry on originally had a much different mindset.

Reply]
That depends on your idea of "Traditional". Most people think of heavy forms and more modern athletic, recreational activity stuff as traditional, but it is not the old school Kung Fu I am talking about. It is it's own thing.

[1bad65]

If you come from an old school Kung Fu sifu, there is NOTHING a BJJ or MT boxer can give you that you are not already getting at home. It's about time these people just get off thier high horse and mind thier own back yard.

After reading this, what's your take on Rudy Abel's instructor?

[sanjuro_ronin]

After reading this, what's your take on Rudy Abel's instructor?

Can you stop please ??

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the sport fighting mindset is a lot more "correct", a lot more geared to producing a good fighter, than the "traditional" mindset. Sport fighters will take anyone else's idea, even if it's ugly, as long as they can make it work. Traditional mindset is very resistant to change, which is funny because the tradition it's trying to carry on originally had a much different mindset.

Reply]
That depends on your idea of "Traditional". Most people think of heavy forms and more modern athletic, recreational activity stuff as traditional, but it is not the old school Kung Fu I am talking about. It is it's own thing.

Yes, and it was closer to what the majority of MMA people do as opposed to what the majority of TCMA people do.

[1bad65]

Can you stop please ??

It's a legit question related to the topic at hand.

RD is comparing KF to MMA. That fight was just that; KF vs MMA. It's completely relevant.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have never trained under him, I don't know how he teaches.

Rudy seemed to be handling most of the takedown attempts well. His footwork was good, and I think he did well against a larger, stronger opponent, so his teacher must be doing something right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a legit question related to the topic at hand.

RD is comparing KF to MMA. That fight was just that; KF vs MMA. It's completely relevant.

No, it isn't and you know it isn't.

[SimonM]

[I]Then why is it that you always see these pro MMA posts and threads (Like this topic) that CANNOT promote MMA without somehow maligning Kung Fu?


Except that nobody is maligning Kung Fu.

Challenging people (of any martial art) who use inappropriate training techniques, sure.
Suggesting that cross training and syncretism are better than adherence to any single style, definately.
Questioning if what you believe to constitute traditional Kung Fu methodology is substantially different from modern MMA methodology, absolutely.

None of these things is, in fact, maligning Kung Fu.

[1bad65]

No, it isn't and you know it isn't.

I say it is.

And RD gave me answer.

I don't troll. I'm straightforward to a fault.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I say it is.

And RD gave me answer.

I don't troll. I'm straightforward to a fault.

I assume that the only TCMA you know is Rudy and his teacher, that is why you brought him up?
Since RD doesn't even know Rudy's teacher.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, and it was closer to what the majority of MMA do.

Reply]
Which is fine, I have been saying that for over 10 years now.

What i don't get is the obsessive need to trash TCMA in order to promote MMA. It has gotten so intrenched in the conversational culture people do it without even considering how insulting they are.

It's just old and nauseating.

[1bad65]

In the early UFC days the Gracies were downright arrogant. They had that 'our technique is the best' attitutude down solid. And their style was dominant back then.

Now look at them. They swallowed their pride and cross-train. They know they must in order to remain competitive.

[MightyB]

and this isn't about that fight 1bad

it's about how crosstraining is accepted more in TCMA because we're willing discussing it more and we're learning to deal with other systems. We're not keeping our heads in the sand so to speak.

[MightyB]

Reply]
Which is fine, I have been saying that for over 10 years now.

What i don't get is the obsessive need to trash TCMA in order to promote MMA. It has gotten so intrenched in the conversational culture people do it without even considering how insulting they are.

It's just old and nauseating.

How is discussing MMA trashing TCMA?

I'm trashing a dogmatic mind set. I'm saying that discussions like this have productive results.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

RD is comparing KF to MMA.

reply]
No I am not, I am complaining about how MMA people cannot mention MMA without trashing TCMA (even when it is worded nicerly)on this forum, as the original poster did.

I don't care to compare MMA to TCMA. That is not my issue.

[1bad65]

I assume that the only TCMA you know is Rudy and his teacher, that is why you brought him up?
Since RD doesn't even know Rudy's teacher.

Incorrect. I know MK and Ross cross train. I've seen Cung Le fight.

And I wanted RDs opinion on Rudy's instructor because we saw one of his high level students in a real fight vs a BJJ/MMA stylist.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

How is discussing MMA trashing TCMA?

I'm trashing a dogmatic mind set. I'm saying that discussions like this have productive results.


Reply]
Just reread the original post. It's just subtle, as opposed to overt.

One problem I have is that the MMA brain washing is so complete even TCMA people subconsciously do it now.

[1bad65]

and this isn't about that fight 1bad

it's about how crosstraining is accepted more in TCMA because we're willing discussing it more and we're learning to deal with other systems. We're not keeping our heads in the sand so to speak.

Many KF schools and practitioners aren't keeping their heads in the sand. I think some still are, RD is a perfect example.

Rudy and JFS were on record as saying BJJ/MMA would never work against them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Incorrect. I know MK and Ross cross train. I've seen Cung Le fight.

And I wanted RDs opinion on Rudy's instructor because we saw one of his high level students in a real fight vs a BJJ/MMA stylist.

Silliness.
Fine.

[Pork Chop]

That depends on your idea of "Traditional". Most people think of heavy forms and more modern athletic, recreational activity stuff as traditional, but it is not the old school Kung Fu I am talking about. It is it's own thing.

(from thefreedictionairy.com)

tra·di·tion·al (tr-dsh-nl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or in accord with tradition: a traditional wedding ceremony.

I'm referring to people who have a tradition that they're trying to uphold as their main priority ahead of becoming the best fighter they can be. I am referring to people who tend to p!ss and moan when people recommend to them to test their stuff out & exchange with sport fighters (who test their stuff frequently). Referring to people who often prioritize forms competitions and lion dance over achieving true fighting skill. I'm referring to most close-minded people in general actually.

[MightyB]

Reply]
Just reread the original post. It's just subtle, as opposed to overt.

One problem I have is that the MMA brain washing is so complete even TCMA people subconsciously do it now.

It just happens when you cross train and when you compete in full contact events.

I learned the hard way-- I was d@mn near knocked out by a pure San Shou fighter on a lei tai mat. Doesn't happen anymore cuz I cross train. Plus my application and understanding of TCMA is lightyears ahead of where it used to be because of cross training. Even my forms are better :)

another thing happens is that you realize that nothing is exclusive. If it works- sooner or later everybody is going to do it.

and- all hard corpse San Shou guys and Judo guys are more humble than traditional martial artists. They really respect each other cuz they know it takes guts to step on a lei tai mat. Doesn't matter if you win or lose, just doing it is the key.

[sanjuro_ronin]

(from thefreedictionairy.com)

tra·di·tion·al (tr-dsh-nl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or in accord with tradition: a traditional wedding ceremony.

I'm referring to people who have a tradition that they're trying to uphold as their main priority ahead of becoming the best fighter they can be. I am referring to people who tend to p!ss and moan when people recommend to them to test their stuff out & exchange with sport fighters (who test their stuff frequently). Referring to people who often prioritize forms competitions and lion dance over achieving true fighting skill. I'm referring to most close-minded people in general actually.

The tradition of TMA is COMBAT, no TMA was ever created to be ineffective in combat.
All the TMA that developed and given TMA were cross trainers (maybe even cross dressers for all we know), they "competed" in MMA type of events.
MMA training IS TMA training.

[lkfmdc]

all hard core San Shou guys and Judo guys are more humble than traditional martial artists. They really respect each other cuz they know it takes guts to step on a lei tai mat. Doesn't matter if you win or lose, just doing it is the key.

you just KO'ed the correct with a nice right cross :D

people who train MMA methodology, ie that train with contact and resistance, also learn rather quickly where they are in the food chain, it's hard to have an overinflated unrealistic image of yourself when guys (and gals) are beating you and tapping you out every day

[MightyB]

you just KO'ed the correct with a nice right cross :D

people who train MMA methodology, ie that train with contact and resistance, also learn rather quickly where they are in the food chain, it's hard to have an overinflated unrealistic image of yourself when guys (and gals) are beating you and tapping you out every day

I think that's because you don't have that enormous burden of carrying a myth. It's really liberating to know that you don't have all the answers and that you don't have to be perfect. It free's you up to the purity and fun of training. I enjoy sparring now. When you're hard corpse traditional, you can't enjoy it cuz supposably you have to be able to destroy anybody who's your junior. That's a rediculous burden to carry... plus you aren't free to explore.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I am reminded of the guy sittin' on the curb, holdin' a hand-full of his own teeth, and yellin'.. yeah, well.. your form sucked...

Be well..

[Pork Chop]

The tradition of TMA is COMBAT, no TMA was ever created to be ineffective in combat.
All the TMA that developed and given TMA were cross trainers (maybe even cross dressers for all we know), they "competed" in MMA type of events.
MMA training IS TMA training.

The guys that started the "tradition" were not really "traditionalists"; they were just fighters who wanted to get better at fighting.

The original spirit of the "tradition" and the current meaning of a "traditionalist" are two totally different things.

Once the priority becomes what belt level someone is, their lineage, the number of forms they play, and not their fighting ability, then they stop becoming fighters and start becoming "traditionalists".

Once the mind becomes closed to other methods or schools of thought, in an effort to promote "one true way", abandoning the quest for personal refinement, in favor of things not related to fighting skill, then one becomes a "traditionalist".

It implies the buying-into of a certain dogma.

Nobody's bashing those who have looked outside of their school's "box", those with an open mind, those who've cross-trained, those who've tested their stuff against skilled opponents, those who've come up in the "tradition" but still pursue the quest of self-refinement.

[Pork Chop]

...I enjoy sparring now. When you're hard corpse traditional, you can't enjoy it cuz supposably you have to be able to destroy anybody who's your junior. That's a rediculous burden to carry... plus you aren't free to explore.

wow, mightyb's making the correct his b!tch today...

[SimonM]

Mighty B is making it very hard to be his official foe today.:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

wow, mightyb's making the correct his b!tch today...

Yes, he is.
For that he gets a reward !

[KC Elbows]

As much as the phrase is a little too new agey for me, train with aliveness, make sure you have an answer for as much of the stuff you might face as possible, and you'll be fine.

MMA is only relevant right now, because it's an easy place to do some of that. Other than that, it's not necessarily an easy thing to define, it's really just a fighting format, not a style, so the name itself is really just a fancy way of saying an open tourney with rules that allow for it to be open to as many styles as it allows, but, and I might be wrong about the ruleset, not supporting throwing styles to a great extent in the ruleset, so it's not the ideal, just a step closer, but not the whole way.

However, having only one teacher in kung fu was not a universal, so it cannot be projected onto all of kung fu as an explanation of a real, or, in some cases, imagined stagnation. There are gyms that competed all along in full contact tourneys. Why were they stagnant? Probably not. Additionally, people project their idea of the lack of full contact kung fu onto China based on American experiences, which is not very reliable.

If you don't like a rival school, traditional response was sometimes to steal what they had that was useful.

On the other hand, the odds are that someone who went from not fighting in kung fu to fighting in mma did not go to a kung fu school that trained as I said above, and many such people tend to forget that they actually never knew kung fu, they knew forms and unrealistic drills, so, in that sense, when such people project their experience onto schools that did train realistically, I have to agree with RD. I don't think this thread was started in that light, but I have known many guys who never so much as used their kung fu on a heavy bag who think they know something from mimicking forms, and then project this onto all kung fu from their limited experience when they do find a fighting school. I also know tkd guys who did this. This does not define all, but I think such posters often get a free ride from people who know better because they agree on minor points, and so the mob mentality will cause the good fighters to let the sycophants, who are usually just as deluded as the worst kung fu folk about they can actually do, spout, while holding the traditionalists to a completely different standard.

Mind you, I don't actually care, this is just an internet thing. In the real world, there's bjj guys who have no standup experience outside of bjj and no awareness of why this is bad, and no real intention of finding out, there's guys who actually train in their styles to fight with them, and most of the latter have limited posting time and interest in this discussion.

[KC Elbows]

Hard corpse traditional schools have real rigor.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As much as the phrase is a little too new agey for me, train with aliveness, make sure you have an answer for as much of the stuff you might face as possible, and you'll be fine.

Correctamundo !!

If you don't like a rival school, traditional response was sometimes to steal what they had that was useful.

Yes.

I have known many guys who never so much as used their kung fu on a heavy bag who think they know something from mimicking forms, and then project this onto all kung fu from their limited experience when they do find a fighting school. I also know tkd guys who did this.

Too many in too many TMA do this.

n the real world, there's bjj guys who have no standup experience outside of bjj and no awareness of why this is bad, and no real intention of finding out, there's guys who actually train in their styles to fight with them...

Yepper.

And for that, you get this:

[SimonM]

Please, in the love of all that is holy, flag NSFW content as such.

[KC Elbows]

Continue on without me, I need some time alone with that link.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please, in the love of all that is holy, flag NSFW content as such.

NSFW ???
What's that?

[SimonM]

That's called some of us only go to KungFuMagazine.com while at work.

[KC Elbows]

That's called some of us only go to KungFuMagazine.com while at work.

Clicking on S-R's links should solve that problem quickly enough.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's called some of us only go to KungFuMagazine.com while at work.

Ah, I see, sorry I though the word NUDE would make it clear...;)
LOL !
Dude, my stuff, though always PG Rated, is rarely safe for work :D

[KC Elbows]

By PG, are you referring to a character from a James Bond flick?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

That's called some of us only go to KungFuMagazine.com while at work.

Reply]
He should not have to mark things NSFW. His REPUTATION precedes him. :D

[KC Elbows]

Reply]
He should not have to mark things NSFW. His REPUTATION precedes him. :D

That's not his reputation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hard corpse traditional schools have real rigor.

As in mortis?
:D

[KC Elbows]

It's hard to find a hard corpse traditional school that trains with aliveness.

[MightyB]

Here's some good reading material for ya RD.

http://www.ngvc.org/

More practical than Teslamotors.

[MightyB]

It's hard to find a hard corpse traditional school that trains with aliveness.

Like I said in the original post... these types of discussions are sparking that type of practice and are breaking down barriers.

[Vankuen]

And now we HAVE to deal with groundfighting and real fighters with experience. We have to take MMA and BJJ seriously.

reply]
Cung Le went into MMA, and fought EXACTLY like he fights san shou. His anti take down skills from resisting throws and take down attempts in San Shou worked just fine in MMA.

He demeostraighted no Ground skills at all because no one successfully took him down long enough to do any BJJ on him.

So apparently BJJ and MT are not the threat they make themselves out to be. Which make thier constant assaults on us even more annoying.

They "Paint" us in a light that is not a real reflection of what we are, and then debate that fantasy as if it was real. It's just a psychological marketing tactic that is not really any different than the brain washing methods cults like OYD use so successfully...and everyone falls into it like any other cult.


You're using cung le as your only viable argument to the testament of gung fu. The only thing is...Cung himself was a crosstrainer and his core arts are all but chinese in origin (unless you want to reach with the vietnamese gung fu). Additionally Cung Le was coached (as he said himself in his Shamrock fight) to escape from ground attacks by a jj guy or mma guy if I recall correctly. Until Shamrock he fought no one worth a ****...which is expected being new to the mma game. So your argument there holds no merit.

The modern Sanshou is a modern iteration of sport fighting based traditional chinese martial arts. It has more commonalities with MT and kickboxing than you seem to understand. Why? Because they all work. Simple as that. In a nutshell, it's kickboxing with throwing, or basic gung fu with shiua jiao, boxing with kicks, throws, and leg sweeps; whatever way you want to say it...but it is what it is.

[bawang]

I only knew about BBJ from that gay forum bullshido and hated it and thought i never want to learn it, but then i met some friends that do BJJ and they are very humble and respect traditional styles. so i would understand if someone only knows about bjj from the internet
stealing and exchanging techniques is common in kung fu, i think more kung fu people should learn techniques from modern mma. theres a lot of indian tibetan and mongolian etc. stuff in kung fu already so i dont think mixing is taboo.

[Lucas]

I ONLY open Ronin Links when I KNOW I am safe to peak at some booty.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You're using cung le as your only viable argument to the testament of gung fu.

Reply]
No, I am pointing out the attacks on Kung Fu are not warranted and utterly ridiculous.

The only thing is...Cung himself was a crosstrainer and his core arts are all but chinese in origin (unless you want to reach with the vietnamese gung fu).

Reply]
Some TKD and Wrestling in his youth hardly qualifies as a "Core art". Has he been wrestling during his sanshou career? No, I don't think so. his "Core" art is CHINESE San shou. THAT is what he has been doing the longest, and has been the most successful with.

He did not wrestle in any of his MMA bouts, he did not do BJJ AT ALL, what he did do is the same exact San Shou he allways does, and THAT is all the traditional Kung Fu.


Additionally Cung Le was coached (as he said himself in his Shamrock fight) to escape from ground attacks by a jj guy or mma guy if I recall correctly. Until Shamrock he fought no one worth a ****...which is expected being new to the mma game. So your argument there holds no merit.

Reply]
Yet he didn't do any BJJ. When Shamrock invited him down he looked at him like he was crazy. Instead of doing BJJ, he stuck to his CORE methods which is all TRADITIONAL Chinese Kung Fu from his Chinese SAN SHOU background.

If his core art was highschool wrestling, he would have used it, he didn't. If his core style was Muay Thai, he would have done more of it, not just one kick on rare occasions. Instead he relied almost exclusively on traditional Chinese Kung Fu techniques; many of which are right out of common long fist forms.

Agian, all you are trying to do is malign Kung Fu by making a sad attempt to convince everyone Cung le is really an MMA guy DESPITE the fact that the core art, what he has put the most time and effort into, for the longest duration is a pure Chinese fighting method built on traditional Chinese fighting techniques.

[lkfmdc]

You're using cung le as your only viable argument to the testament of gung fu. The only thing is...Cung himself was a crosstrainer and his core arts are all but chinese in origin (unless you want to reach with the vietnamese gung fu). Additionally Cung Le was coached (as he said himself in his Shamrock fight) to escape from ground attacks by a jj guy or mma guy if I recall correctly. Until Shamrock he fought no one worth a ****...which is expected being new to the mma game. So your argument there holds no merit.

The modern Sanshou is a modern iteration of sport fighting based traditional chinese martial arts. It has more commonalities with MT and kickboxing than you seem to understand. Why? Because they all work. Simple as that. In a nutshell, it's kickboxing with throwing, or basic gung fu with shiua jiao, boxing with kicks, throws, and leg sweeps; whatever way you want to say it...but it is what it is.

Excellent post....

but more directly to the point, San Shou/San Da is MMA. It is training based upon aliveness, contact and resistance.

It isn't what you train, it is HOW you train....

Cung, any san Shou/San Da fighter, isn't an example of how TMA works, they are examples of how MMA works!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Now THAT was utterly ridiculous.

[SimonM]

Or, bringing this discussion full circle, you could say that Cung is a good example of how MMA and TMA are, in essence, only two different words for the same array of ideas, when applied correctly.

[MightyB]

"You may absorb traditional kung fu training in sanda, but basically, if you choose sanda, then just train all the techniques for sanda. In today's training, sanda and taolu are completely separate. In sanda, there's no time to show what kind of kung fu system you are practicing, except maybe during the bow in. If you have some winning movement, everyone else will learn it very quickly and use it. Sanda is beyond system."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=749

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but more directly to the point, San Shou/San Da is MMA. It is training based upon aliveness, contact and resistance.

Reply]
Of course it is based on that. THAT is what makes it traditional.

What amazes me too no end, the same people that will trash TCMA will hold up San Shou as if it is the not the same thing.

San Shou is no different than Traditional Kung Fu. It just has some moder additions like vynile dipped foam sparring gear...which just about every other MA school has anyway.

Traditional Kung Fu has all the same aspects to it that MMA has. yet MMA people will tear down TCMA and in the next breath prop up the same qualities in MMA.

Honestly, I don't see ANYTHING MMA has to offer that is any different than real old school TCMA.

[MightyB]

"You may absorb traditional kung fu training in sanda, but basically, if you choose sanda, then just train all the techniques for sanda. In today's training, sanda and taolu are completely separate. In sanda, there's no time to show what kind of kung fu system you are practicing, except maybe during the bow in. If you have some winning movement, everyone else will learn it very quickly and use it. Sanda is beyond system."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=749

I think this guy knew old-school kung fu...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

"You may absorb traditional kung fu training in sanda, but basically, if you choose sanda, then just train all the techniques for sanda. In today's training, sanda and taolu are completely separate. In sanda, there's no time to show what kind of kung fu system you are practicing, except maybe during the bow in. If you have some winning movement, everyone else will learn it very quickly and use it. Sanda is beyond system."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=749

Reply]
That is pretty much what Old School Kung Fu is too. The forms have ALLWAYS been separate. They were taught last, only to advance practitioners as a form of certificate, to document the curriculum, and put the final polish on the body mechanics.

Since the form is out of the picture for the learning process, what is left but techniques drills heavy conditioning and fighting? THAT is traditional Kung Fu, which is pretty much what San Shou is. I have yet to see any MMA have anything to offer as an improvement on real Kung Fu.

[SimonM]

It would appear that RD can't see far enough past the chip on his shoulder to notice that NOBODY IS DISSING UP TMA IN THIS THREAD!!!!

Thank you.

[Vankuen]

No, I am pointing out the attacks on Kung Fu are not warranted and utterly ridiculous.[I]

Fair enough. But again, no one here has said that kung fu sucks...only asked the mind opening question of how the training methods utilized by MMA can help all martial arts. At least to me and how I've interpreted this thread. Part of communication is being open enough to actually process the information being given and seeing it for what it is, as opposed to a pre self percepualizing it into what you think it is.


Some TKD and Wrestling in his youth hardly qualifies as a "Core art". Has he been wrestling during his sanshou career? No, I don't think so. his "Core" art is CHINESE San shou. THAT is what he has been doing the longest, and has been the most successful with.
Actually he does use wrestling throws, and he's said himself in interviews of how he uses it to amplify his performance in Sanshou. To me, Sanshou is a venue with rules and regs, just like MMA, just like muay thai, just like olympic TKD. Anyone of any style can be a Sanshou fighter. He rose through the ranks of Sanshou with his skills as a fighter...it was the venue that he was successful in, that's it. It's not a style per say, it's the same round kicks, the same punches, the same knees, the same throws you'd see in a number of other styles. There's nothing unique about it in my opinion outside of it's ruleset. There's stuff all over the net that talks about modern sanshou...it's current iteration is not traditional gung fu in the least bit.


He did not wrestle in any of his MMA bouts, he did not do BJJ AT ALL, what he did do is the same exact San Shou he allways does, and THAT is all the traditional Kung Fu.
Again, that's because he fought guys who are worth about nothing, up until Frank; and with Frank, it was agreed that it would be a standup match. Cung was smart to control the fight...and all along he was expecting Frank to break his word and shoot in...which is why Cung's defense didn't have as much upper body movement (his words). He would have very well done BJJ and wrestling if need be, the need simply didn't arise. And once more, Sanshou isn't traditional gung fu.


Yet he didn't do any BJJ. When Shamrock invited him down he looked at him like he was crazy. Instead of doing BJJ, he stuck to his CORE methods which is all TRADITIONAL Chinese Kung Fu from his Chinese SAN SHOU background.

If his core art was highschool wrestling, he would have used it, he didn't. If his core style was Muay Thai, he would have done more of it, not just one kick on rare occasions. Instead he relied almost exclusively on traditional Chinese Kung Fu techniques; many of which are right out of common long fist forms.
Were we watching the same fight? I saw boxing hands, side kicks, and round kicks that looks awefully close to things out of TKD and MT respectively. He punched often, and kicked often, and used a couple of leg sweeps. Once more, it was agreed to not go to the ground...


Agian, all you are trying to do is malign Kung Fu by making a sad attempt to convince everyone Cung le is really an MMA guy DESPITE the fact that the core art, what he has put the most time and effort into, for the longest duration is a pure Chinese fighting method built on traditional Chinese fighting techniques.
Not at all. I love gung fu. But Cung Le still isn't a "chinese martial artist" by any means. He's simply been the most successful there. Again, his words--he likes Sanshou because it combined the punching and kicking with throwing. Now he's moved onto MMA because it's combined another facet of real fighting...groundwork. He goes where he's able to use the most of his tools it seems.

But enough about Cung, because unless we both know him personally, the points made are moot without concrete facts to back them up...and I for one don't have tapes of all his interviews.

[unkokusai]

You're using cung le as your only viable argument to the testament of gung fu.

Reply]
No, I am pointing out the attacks on Kung Fu are not warranted and utterly ridiculous.

The only thing is...Cung himself was a crosstrainer and his core arts are all but chinese in origin (unless you want to reach with the vietnamese gung fu).

Reply]
Some TKD and Wrestling in his youth hardly qualifies as a "Core art". Has he been wrestling during his sanshou career? No, I don't think so. his "Core" art is CHINESE San shou. THAT is what he has been doing the longest, and has been the most successful with.

He did not wrestle in any of his MMA bouts, he did not do BJJ AT ALL, what he did do is the same exact San Shou he allways does, and THAT is all the traditional Kung Fu.


Additionally Cung Le was coached (as he said himself in his Shamrock fight) to escape from ground attacks by a jj guy or mma guy if I recall correctly. Until Shamrock he fought no one worth a ****...which is expected being new to the mma game. So your argument there holds no merit.

Reply]
Yet he didn't do any BJJ. When Shamrock invited him down he looked at him like he was crazy. Instead of doing BJJ, he stuck to his CORE methods which is all TRADITIONAL Chinese Kung Fu from his Chinese SAN SHOU background.

If his core art was highschool wrestling, he would have used it, he didn't. If his core style was Muay Thai, he would have done more of it, not just one kick on rare occasions. Instead he relied almost exclusively on traditional Chinese Kung Fu techniques; many of which are right out of common long fist forms.

Agian, all you are trying to do is malign Kung Fu by making a sad attempt to convince everyone Cung le is really an MMA guy DESPITE the fact that the core art, what he has put the most time and effort into, for the longest duration is a pure Chinese fighting method built on traditional Chinese fighting techniques.




You are trying way too hard, you whiney little *****.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Were we watching the same fight? I saw boxing hands, side kicks, and round kicks that looks awefully close to things out of TKD and MT respectively. He punched often, and kicked often, and used a couple of leg sweeps.



Reply]
I barely saw MT, all his kicks, punches, footwork, were pretty much typical Long Fist right from the forms. I have no idea where you see TKD an Boxing. The MT was ONE Kick. Everything else was typical Chinese Kung Fu.

Again, Cung Le has done Chinese San Shou longer than everything else he has done combined. The majority of his arsenal of techniques are commonly found in Traditional Chinese Kung Fu system and are right out of common Chinese forms.

But again, no one here has said that kung fu sucks

Reply]
It was implied in the very first post, and I referenced others doing so as they did them throughout the entire thread.

[lkfmdc]

for both his inability to use the quote function, and his inability to absorb facts, I've decided to just ignore RD.... the list is growing

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't know what the obsession is with the quote function, I use it all the time.

[unkokusai]

I don't know what the obsession is with the quote function.




You continue to annoy people with your childish obstinance. Be careful you don't get chased off this forum as well.

[1bad65]

for both his inability to use the quote function, and his inability to absorb facts, I've decided to just ignore RD.... the list is growing

RD is in a world all his own. ;)

[1bad65]

A pure KF guy would not do very well in MMA.

A pure BJJ guy would not do very well in MMA.

In order to be successful you need to cross train. You need to work striking, clinch, and ground. This involves a mix of arts. It's not a hard concept to grasp, assuming you have at least a room temperature IQ.

[Pork Chop]

I barely saw MT, all his kicks, punches, footwork, were pretty much typical Long Fist right from the forms. I have no idea where you see TKD an Boxing. The MT was ONE Kick. Everything else was typical Chinese Kung Fu.


I'm going to give you an 9.5 for this trolling attempt - an extra point because so many of us bit; but then again i think a lot of us were desperate....

and just to throw one more on the fire....
Cung was using moves from Long Fist forms that he's never learned? hmmm :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I'm going to give you an 9.5 for this trolling attempt -



the sad part is, he isn't trolling, in his twisted little mind he believes that :rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I'm going to give you an 9.5 for this trolling attempt - an extra point because so many of us bit; but then again i think a lot of us were desperate....

and just to throw one more on the fire....
Cung was using moves from Long Fist forms that he's never learned? hmmm :rolleyes:

Reply]
He uses Chinese san shou, most of which comes from traditional Long Fist.

It's not too hard to figure out. A traditionally trained fighter, fighting in a traditional Chinese venue would be using traditional techniques.

[TenTigers]

[I]
Reply]
I barely saw MT, all his kicks, punches, footwork, were pretty much typical Long Fist right from the forms. I have no idea where you see TKD an Boxing. The MT was ONE Kick. Everything else was typical Chinese Kung Fu.


which kick is which?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Th MT round kick is identifiable, everything else is common long fist

[Lucas]

My kungfu is fierce, and it weilds firearms and curses.

[1bad65]

the sad part is, he isn't trolling, in his twisted little mind he believes that :rolleyes:

Being a VHS/DVD master will do that.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You need to fight me. After I beat you silly I will tell you which videos you need to watch to improve.

[David Jamieson]

some of it is plane and simple liver chewing, and some of it is legit crosstraining dudes who can't wrap there heads around traditional training, some of it is nutriding beligerent idiots who don't actually train tma but are long winded in tehir criticisms because they watched some Matt thornton video or something and occaisionally slap fight with their friends :p, some of it is nancyboy posing and so on and so forth.

you can still have kungfu in any martial endeavour including mma.

In short, it's irrelevant. If it's about martial arts, meditation, qigong, healing, health, exercise, positive living, then I really don't give a **** what "camp" it's coming from. :)

[1bad65]

You need to fight me. After I beat you silly I will tell you which videos you need to watch to improve.

Oh Jesus Christ! Not this sh!t again.

Just post some video showing us your awesome skills.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, you have challenged everyone but me, I feel left out.

How about a weapons fight, I will use a VHS against your DVD.

[TenTigers]

Th MT round kick is identifiable, everything else is common long fist


could you be more specific?
Better yet, could you be extremely specific?
Which kick, how, in what way is it different?
Go into detail. How is the MT round kick different than your Northern Shaolin round kick.
I will say this-when I learned Northern Shaolin, the kick folded before. But I have also seen other people from Northern Shaolin, not fold.

[1bad65]

No, you have challenged everyone but me, I feel left out.

How about a weapons fight, I will use a VHS against your DVD.

I have challenged no one.

And DVD is alot better than VHS. ;)

[unkokusai]

You need to fight me. After I beat you silly I will tell you which videos you need to watch to improve.

:rolleyes:



some of it is nancyboy posing.


Like the RD's Ass has as his avatar!

[Fox]

KFSS has ground game as well as striking. I love my core art!! I have crossed tained as well. The more tools you have, the better fighter/instructor you become.

[lkfmdc]

I love my core art!! I have crossed tained as well. The more tools you have, the better fighter/instructor you become.

why is it so hard for some people to say stuff like that? Really, that's all there is... no need to create castles in the sky to justify undefensable positions

[Fox]

Who knows. I am always willing to learn something new. Maybe some people just do not get it:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread needs an enema.

[Old Noob]

This thread needs an enema.

For not posting a pic to go along with that statement.:D

[MasterKiller]

could you be more specific?
Better yet, could you be extremely specific?
Which kick, how, in what way is it different?
Go into detail. How is the MT round kick different than your Northern Shaolin round kick.
I will say this-when I learned Northern Shaolin, the kick folded before. But I have also seen other people from Northern Shaolin, not fold.
Northen Shaolin kicks snap from the knee. You raise the leg, turn the hip, then snap the kick out. See Rudy Able's video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bQv0IrEwg60

The MT kick is more like a baseball bat where the knee is not chambered. Some other 'purists' have insisted this is actually the mysterious Chinese Whip Kick.

You can see the way Cung throws his roundhouses here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nInaTMNAvAU&feature=related

I love the way he is "NOT WRESTLING" at the 12 second mark.
The kick that breaks Shamrocks arm is at 2:00.

[TenTigers]

yeah, I was hoping Rd could answer that.

[SimonM]

So... what have we learned?

1) RD doesn't like syncretism.

2) Everyone else thinks that syncretism either a) is a tradition of kung fu or b) should be.

3) Even after the recent fiasco with Rudy and 1 bad it took less than 10 pages for the internet challenge gauntlet (https://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=865914&postcount=3) to be thrown down.

[lkfmdc]

So... what have we learned?



With your last post, that probably only 10% of the forum knows what syncretism is.

Certainly, CJurakPT will know!

He will even "deconstruct it" for you! :D

[SimonM]

Syncretism: Mixin' stuff together from different stuff to get new stuff. :D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

yeah, I was hoping Rd could answer that.


Reply]
I was going to say what MK said, but add that I have not seen the round kick in the really old Kung Fu systems. Lots of inside crescents, but not a round kick.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

1) RD doesn't like syncretism.

Reply]
This is funny because my own method is a mix of all sorts of things I picked up along the way.

I just don't like the idea that you *HAVE* to go to MMA to learn to fight because it really says that Kung Fu is somehow deficient.

You should be learning to fight in your Kung Fu style, and not have to go to outside sources. If you are not,then it's not time to go seek MMA, but rather time to get back to the core basics of your training.

What is the essence of martial training? Well, my answer would be the development of fighting skills, so if you are weak in that area, then you should focus on fighting a lot.

You don't need to go to BJJ to learn take down defenses, your style should be full of them. Kung Fu has way better striking than I generally see in MMA, and we have our own methods of ground and pound to deal with Ground fighting. I just don't see any reason to go to MMA to learn this stuff.

As I keep saying too, I have YET to see MMA offer anything vastly superior to good Kung Fu. A lot of what I see is actually inferior.

I am starting to think people have been convinced that MMA is the Shiznits, and have become blinded to what they already have.

It's one of those "Grass is greener on the other side" deals.Only once you jump the fence it's not any more so than what you had in the first place.

[1bad65]

You don't need to go to BJJ to learn take down defenses, your style should be full of them.

BJJ is about fighting on the ground, not takedown defense. Judo and wrestling are better styles for takedown defense. This may shock you, but a BJJ guy wants the fight to go to the ground.

Kung Fu has way better striking than I generally see in MMA,

So all these professional fighters are stupid, while a VHS/DVD master like yourself knows what the real facts are. Idiot.

and we have our own methods of ground and pound to deal with Ground fighting. I just don't see any reason to go to MMA to learn this stuff.

As I keep saying too, I have YET to see MMA offer anything vastly superior to good Kung Fu. A lot of what I see is actually inferior.

Then get your head out of the sand. On top of the Rudy/Anthony fight, here's another one. In this one eye gouges were allowed:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4

I am starting to think people have been convinced that MMA is the Shiznits, and have become blinded to what they already have.

It's one of those "Grass is greener on the other side" deals.Only once you jump the fence it's not any more so than what you had in the first place.

Then show us proof of a PURE Kung-Fu guy beating an MMA guy.


While your at it, post some video of yourself showing us all what effective KF you have.

[Fox]

Not trying to be a ****, but did you talk to the guy from cushing. He is pretty fast. He tapped me once, and I kneed him in the throat. Just ask him he is cool about it.

[lkfmdc]

1bad65.... why even waste your time?

It's pointless, you're always going to have guys who claim they "can fight" or that they can "defeat the guard" while doing it from their living room, and never testing their THEORY against an actual fighter.

It's been more than a decade now, if they haven't gotten the concept by now, they never will

[1bad65]

1bad65.... why even waste your time?

I realize I won't change RD's mind. He is a lost cause. No doubt about that.

I look at it this way; I want the other people reading and contributing to the thread to see my points vs his points and make up their own minds, which cannot be as closeminded as his is. That's why I do it.

[1bad65]

It's been more than a decade now, if they haven't gotten the concept by now, they never will

It really has been 15 years since UFC 1. My how time flies.

[SimonM]

1) RD doesn't like syncretism.

You should be learning to fight in your Kung Fu style, and not have to go to outside sources.

So, like I said, you don't like syncretism because you believe "your Kung Fu style" to be all that should be needed for training.

My sifu teaches 3 arts at his school: boxing, jj and TCMA. Yesterday he concentrated on JJ, mostly knee, ankle and heel locks. He said, in class, that the thing that is single-most hurting CMA is slavish adherence to thre traditions of the previous generation.

He found, as a teenager in Hong Kong, that the kung fu being taught around him had two big problems: 1) lack of a ground game. 2) Too much showy, inefficient, hand striking. So he looked around. He had multiple teachers, he learned a lot - without worrying about whether or not what he was learning was part of his "kung fu system" Now his school is one of the most respected in the city, one of our members is a provincial championship winner in JJ and he's also trained some **** fine boxers. You know what: it still says "wu shu" on the sign.

Merging strong elements of jj and boxing INTO his kung fu - which was, in and of its self, a syncretic blend of northern and southern styles made his kung fu better... and improved the quality of his JJ and boxing too.

[KFNOOB]

Isnt it just the fact that MMA fighters (especially the ones you actually get to see on TV because they are among the best) simply train hard, train smart and are in tip top physical condition? They are tough guys that know how to fight and train specifically to fight. I dont think its a style verse style thing but more of a training/conditioning thing.

[MasterKiller]

Isnt it just the fact that MMA fighters (especially the ones you actually get to see on TV because they are among the best) simply train hard, train smart and are in tip top physical condition? They are tough guys that know how to fight and train specifically to fight. I dont think its a style verse style thing but more of a training/conditioning thing.

Which is why Ross said it's how you train, not what you train.

[Fox]

You are right MK. Everyone has their own way of training/fighting/teaching.

[Pork Chop]

You should be learning to fight in your Kung Fu style, and not have to go to outside sources. If you are not,then it's not time to go seek MMA, but rather time to get back to the core basics of your training.


"Should" and "are" are two totally different conditions.
You're not being asked to learn mma, you're being asked to compete in mma.
If you were really learning to fight with your kung fu, that should be a no-brainer.

In a boxing or muay thai gym, from the first time you walk in the door, within 6 months there's already been an evaluation of some sort to determine whether you are going to fight or not.
By the 6 month period you've either been in the ring sparring, or have already been asked to fight.
If you're slow picking up the skill set or need a lot of training to get into decent shape, then between the 1 and 2 year mark you'll be considered for competing.

Sanshou at smaller kung fu tournaments is a bit different from the larger san shou circuits.
The traditional schools don't do as well on the larger scene (as Ross can attest).

I can remember when the original recommendation for san shou at taiji legacy was having over 5 years of kung fu experience - it was definitely an in-house recommendation if not a tournament requirement. How many people actually have the patience to wait 5 years to compete? How many people even stick around 5 years?

This is the only in-style outlet for kung fu people to litmus test their skills (aside from BS "medium contact" continuous sparring), and it's not even the main focus of the training. Most sanshou programs at most kung fu schools are a subset of the students doing extra work outside of their normal training. That should tell you something.

What is the essence of martial training? Well, my answer would be the development of fighting skills, so if you are weak in that area, then you should focus on fighting a lot.

not a bad idea, but the focus of most schools i've been at has been strictly forms (occasionally apps), tournament stuff (pretty forms, bs continuous sparring), lion dance, or a mixture of all 3.

You don't need to go to BJJ to learn take down defenses, your style should be full of them.

Learning is not necessarily the reason you're being advised to cross-train.
Testing your takedown defenses against someone who's actually competent at takedowns is more important than learning their style of takedown defense.
capiche?

A judo guy or a wrestler's gonna have good takedowns, so you'll know where your takedown defense stands with them.

A boxer's gonna have great punches, so you'll know where your punches & punching defense stands with them.

A muay thai guy's gonna have great kicks, punches, & clinch, so you'll know where you stand on those things with them.

Kung Fu has way better striking than I generally see in MMA, and we have our own methods of ground and pound to deal with Ground fighting. I just don't see any reason to go to MMA to learn this stuff.

Fancier does not equal better.
If you want to go test out your striking go try mma or muay thai and see how your stuff holds up; you don't necessarily have to learn it - but if you get beaten with something, you may want to learn what you got nailed with & the strategy that lead to it.

As I keep saying too, I have YET to see MMA offer anything vastly superior to good Kung Fu. A lot of what I see is actually inferior.

don't take offense, but would you mind sharing your credentials to make such a claim?
what pro mma guys have you fought that tells you their stuff is inferior?
what televised/taped fights have you had that can let you judge another tape so matter-of-factly?
One of the klitschko brothers said once (kinda paraphrasing):
"in chess: everyone plays, but few claim to be an expert.
in (fighting): few play, but everyone claims to be an expert."

I am starting to think people have been convinced that MMA is the Shiznits, and have become blinded to what they already have.

I don't even like mma that much, I'd rather watch amateur boxing or amateur muay thai most times than professional mma; it's just not my preference. But I'm a huge fan of cross training and I think there's a heckuva precedent for it in tcma.

It's one of those "Grass is greener on the other side" deals.Only once you jump the fence it's not any more so than what you had in the first place.

Anybody who knows me well can tell you that I've been at much greater peace of mind about my training since leaving traditional kung fu (and all of it's unknowns) for sport fighting.

ps- if i hear one more time "oh you just didn't train at a traditional school", I may just start dropping names, and watch a lot of people get really p!ssed off...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Learning is not necessarily the reason you're being advised to cross-train.
Testing your takedown defenses against someone who's actually competent at takedowns is more important than learning their style of takedown defense.
capiche?

A judo guy or a wrestler's gonna have good takedowns, so you'll know where your takedown defense stands with them.

A boxer's gonna have great punches, so you'll know where your punches & punching defense stands with them.

A muay thai guy's gonna have great kicks, punches, & clinch, so you'll know where you stand on those things with them.


Very well said.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

A judo guy or a wrestler's gonna have good takedowns, so you'll know where your takedown defense stands with them.

Reply]
so do san shou fighters. why must we cross train with judo or wrestlers, when we already have our own fighters to test with?

A boxer's gonna have great punches, so you'll know where your punches & punching defense stands with them.

Reply]
So do Chinese fighters, why do we need to specifically test against a boxer?

A muay thai guy's gonna have great kicks, punches, & clinch, so you'll know where you stand on those things with them.

Reply]
And so does the Chinese arts.

The Chinese Kung Fu has great stand up, take downs grapling and brutal ground and pound all in one stop. You don't need to runaround everywhere trying to learn some hands here, and legs there with footwork that does not really support any of it. In Kung Fu it is all integraated into really efficient, stream lined fighting.

I really do not see why these arts that everyone holds so high are any better than anything I have seen in Chinese Kung Fu.

All the Kung Fu people I have seen are tough SOBs, and are just as skilled, and often more skilled than JJ MT or boxers I have met in the past.

One of my teachers showed me how to catch a boxer's Jab in one lesson. It's easy as can be and ends in a takedown and a Chin na that can dislocate a shoulder. I have never seen anyone else do that. Heck, I have mentioned this in years past and was laughed at because you guy think it is impossible.

I think you guys just like the currently popular arts and that is all there is to it.

[MightyB]

A judo guy or a wrestler's gonna have good takedowns, so you'll know where your takedown defense stands with them.

Reply]
so do san shou fighters. why must we cross train with judo or wrestlers, when we already have our own fighters to test with?

A boxer's gonna have great punches, so you'll know where your punches & punching defense stands with them.

Reply]
So do Chinese fighters, why do we need to specifically test against a boxer?

A muay thai guy's gonna have great kicks, punches, & clinch, so you'll know where you stand on those things with them.

Reply]
And so does the Chinese arts.

The Chinese Kung Fu has great stand up, take downs grapling and brutal ground and pound all in one stop. You don't need to runaround everywhere trying to learn some hands here, and legs there with footwork that does not really support any of it. In Kung Fu it is all integraated into really efficient, stream lined fighting.

I really do not see why these arts that everyone holds so high are any better than anything I have seen in Chinese Kung Fu.

All the Kung Fu people I have seen are tough SOBs, and are just as skilled, and often more skilled than JJ MT or boxers I have met in the past.

One of my teachers showed me how to catch a boxer's Jab in one lesson. It's easy as can be and ends in a takedown and a Chin na that can dislocate a shoulder. I have never seen anyone else do that. Heck, I have mentioned this in years past and was laughed at because you guy think it is impossible.

I think you guys just like the currently popular arts and that is all there is to it.

San Shou is beyond style dumb arse! If it works, a San Shou guy will do it. That's why there's sooooo much Judo, boxing, and Thai in San Shou.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

BJJ is about fighting on the ground, not takedown defense. Judo and wrestling are better styles for takedown defense. This may shock you, but a BJJ guy wants the fight to go to the ground.



So all these professional fighters are stupid, while a VHS/DVD master like yourself knows what the real facts are. Idiot.



Then get your head out of the sand. On top of the Rudy/Anthony fight, here's another one. In this one eye gouges were allowed:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4



Then show us proof of a PURE Kung-Fu guy beating an MMA guy.


While your at it, post some video of yourself showing us all what effective KF you have.

Reply]
Anytime you want to come to Chicago i will be more than willing to prove to you.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

San Shou is beyond style dumb arse! If it works, a San Shou guy will do it. That's why there's sooooo much Judo, boxing, and Thai in San Shou.

Reply]
Most of what you are calling"Judo" is Chinese throws and take downs right out of the Chinese forms. I don't know where you see "Boxing" in san shou. The hands I see are all what is seen in the common Kung Fu forms.

The only MT I ever see is thier round kick.

You believe these things because that is what you have been programed to believe.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So all these professional fighters are stupid, while a VHS/DVD master like yourself knows what the real facts are. Idiot.

Reply]
No, they just want to do everything form the BJJ perspective, so good hand skills are not emphasisized. In Kung Fu the ground is seen as a bad place to be, so they work thier hand skills more. It's that simple.

[MightyB]

Reply]
Most of what you are calling"Judo" is Chinese throws and take downs right out of the Chinese forms. I don't know where you see "Boxing" in san shou. The hands I see are all what is seen in the common Kung Fu forms.

The only MT I ever see is thier round kick.

You believe these things because that is what you have been programed to believe.

wow- it's like trying to have a discussion with a brick wall. You're more stubborn than LKMFDM in your beliefs--- and I salute you. But- in this case, you're wrong. If you knew anything about San Shou and how it's trained, you'd realize how it's truly a stand up MMA and really isn't kung fu anymore. Bag work, hand drills, striking--- all boxing. Actually boxing got so popular in San Shou that they had to limit face striking combos to just two to get people to not western box so much.

Shuai started in Mongolia and probably traces it's roots to Greece- who traces their roots to Egypt- But that's a long and debatable story.

Do yourself a favor, read the links I posted and enroll in a San Shou gym- You're in Chicago so there has to be a good one around.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

not a bad idea, but the focus of most schools i've been at has been strictly forms (occasionally apps), tournament stuff (pretty forms, bs continuous sparring), lion dance, or a mixture of all 3.

Reply]
That is not Traditional Kung Fu. That type of training is new in the last 3 generations at best, many lines less than that.

What you described above is a modern, recreational program centered arund traditional *Cultural* activities, not real Traditional Kung Fu. It is often marketed as being traditional Kung Fu but it really is not.

Only the schools that focus on real functional self defense/fighting skills, leaving forms for last are teaching traditionally.

[Fox]

RD, I was taught by Bill Lasiter KFSS. He trained us to go to the groun and pound way. You use everything you were taught to win.

[MightyB]

Pioneering Grandmaster Qian Yuanze:

"When it comes to mixed martial arts, sanda's rules state that when you fall, you lose, so there aren't any ground-fighting skills needed. We need to develop more ground-fighting skills to catch up with MMA fights. I estimate it won't take long for China to develop some good ground-fighting skills. There are some clubs in China starting to train MMA, too."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=749

do yourself a favor, Read it

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

anymore. Bag work, hand drills, striking--- all boxing.

Reply]
Actually it's all traditional Kung Fu. Especially when the hands are being used to set up and execute throws and take downs, which is what san shou is all about.

You never see boxers trying to throw each other. Heck, it's not even part of thier rule set.

[Pork Chop]

so do san shou fighters. why must we cross train with judo or wrestlers, when we already have our own fighters to test with?
So do Chinese fighters, why do we need to specifically test against a boxer?
And so does the Chinese arts (why do we need to test against muay thai?).


And why aren't you listening to 3 san shou fighters on this board TELLING you that we cross train with Judo, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, and/or Sambo players/trainers?

The Chinese Kung Fu has great stand up, take downs grapling and brutal ground and pound all in one stop. You don't need to runaround everywhere