Jeen Kuen

[nospam]

..here is a look at one of our fighting sets performed by a young practitioner of Bak Hsing Fut Gar at one of our tournaments in the 1980s. It picks up close to the end of our hoi jong. This was categorised Brown Belt Level.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dKN15h5RZB0

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[diego]

..here is a look at one of our fighting sets performed by a young practitioner of Bak Hsing Fut Gar at one of our tournaments in the 1980s. It picks up close to the end of our hoi jong. This was categorised Brown Belt Level.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dKN15h5RZB0

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

dude, I forgot that haircut exists:D straight 80's cartoon skateboarder with the blond bangs over the eyes...now that I think about it asians use that cut but trimmed short and more fashionable when they rock the shiny outfits:)...Cool form man, I like this thing called CLF.pz

[nospam]

..funny.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[CLFNole]

Uuussssaaaa!!! Cobra Kai for life, baby.

[nospam]

Sup Ji Jeen Kuen teaches us how to utilise our more advance fighting techniques through use of particular stance work in combination with execution of technique.

It is when the practitioner takes certain elements from the jeen kuen and begins to train the advanced usage of our fighting philosophy that the essence of our style truly begins to manifest. This generally starts to open new doors of understanding in how to use what previously was thought of as advanced. With this, the practitioner begins to re-work all they had known. Of course certain elements of our philosophy have been integrated throughout the course of training, but as we all have experienced in our progression, even little perception changes can have profound impact on the most basic of technique.

Sup Ji Jeen Kuen, as is Sup Ji Kuen, is a tool or key to help the advanced student unlock the nuances of our fighting method and moreso shed light on our fighting philosophy. Without key ingredients that are introduced in a progressive manner, what one student within our system does at year 2 is different than a student in year 4. A diligent student that has trained for 6 years will see all kung fu with a different eye or a lense that allows an ability to thread movement together where others may not or can not see it themselves. It is a gung that allows our students to read movement in its most natural state.

This is one reason why Bak Hsing does not require many fist patterns. Having less patterns does not make us good fighters as so many believe. This is a fallacy, no different than what has been written or described about us being rawer than the other branches. We could have many patterns but there is no need. More is not better as less is not better. It synthesizes down to our method of teaching: when the practitioner has been provided the ingredients (techniques/philosophy) more is not needed. The most basic ingredient of our philosophy I have posted already. One person that viewed one of our Bak Hsing's videos commented: "What style is this? It looks like CLF?" The difference was the movement. Another practitioner that observed us fighting at a tournament clearly saw something unique in our approach as we were 80% more mobile than those we fought. This teacher wanted to learn how. But even in this most obvious difference in fighting philosophy, it is but one of many pieces of a puzzle.

So, why does Bak Hsing have less patterns? Because our Founder didn't learn all of the Hung Hsing forms? No. Because he spent his time fighting? Not exactly accurate. Because he developed a unique fighting perspective and turned this into a deadly fighting philosophy (deadly meaning effective) that to this day has not been duplicated and only poorly imitated. You can learn Bak Hsing patterns, but you will not be able to interpret them. You can throw a chop choy or leopard fist (whatever you like to refer to it as) and declare there is no difference, but it is not the Bak Hsing way. As some of my Bak Hsing brothers have stated on this forum, it is more than shared technique or as some call seeds. And like others here also say: this technique and that technique are not unique..we all have lin wan and chop, and gwa, and sow. Indeed, we all do. But what we all do not have is the teachings of Tam Sam.

I hope this helps shed a little light on how Bak Hsing Kwoon rolls. This is not a post about how we are different or better than others. If this is how you read this, we simply view gung fu differently. Just like any style out there, a practitioner needs to stick with their style to fully comprehend. And just as with Life and the truths of learning, it is a progressive journey and the gung is developed along the way.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[chasincharpchui]

couldn't have worded it better myself

[diego]

Sup Ji Jeen Kuen teaches us how to utilise our more advance fighting techniques through use of particular stance work in combination with execution of technique.

It is when the practitioner takes certain elements from the jeen kuen and begins to train the advanced usage of our fighting philosophy that the essence of our style truly begins to manifest. This generally starts to open new doors of understanding in how to use what previously was thought of as advanced. With this, the practitioner begins to re-work all they had known. Of course certain elements of our philosophy have been integrated throughout the course of training, but as we all have experienced in our progression, even little perception changes can have profound impact on the most basic of technique.

Sup Ji Jeen Kuen, as is Sup Ji Kuen, is a tool or key to help the advanced student unlock the nuances of our fighting method and moreso shed light on our fighting philosophy. Without key ingredients that are introduced in a progressive manner, what one student within our system does at year 2 is different than a student in year 4. A diligent student that has trained for 6 years will see all kung fu with a different eye or a lense that allows an ability to thread movement together where others may not or can not see it themselves. It is a gung that allows our students to read movement in its most natural state.

This is one reason why Bak Hsing does not require many fist patterns. Having less patterns does not make us good fighters as so many believe. This is a fallacy, no different than what has been written or described about us being rawer than the other branches. We could have many patterns but there is no need. More is not better as less is not better. It synthesizes down to our method of teaching: when the practitioner has been provided the ingredients (techniques/philosophy) more is not needed. The most basic ingredient of our philosophy I have posted already. One person that viewed one of our Bak Hsing's videos commented: "What style is this? It looks like CLF?" The difference was the movement. Another practitioner that observed us fighting at a tournament clearly saw something unique in our approach as we were 80% more mobile than those we fought. This teacher wanted to learn how. But even in this most obvious difference in fighting philosophy, it is but one of many pieces of a puzzle.

So, why does Bak Hsing have less patterns? Because our Founder didn't learn all of the Hung Hsing forms? No. Because he spent his time fighting? Not exactly accurate. Because he developed a unique fighting perspective and turned this into a deadly fighting philosophy (deadly meaning effective) that to this day has not been duplicated and only poorly imitated. You can learn Bak Hsing patterns, but you will not be able to interpret them. You can throw a chop choy or leopard fist (whatever you like to refer to it as) and declare there is no difference, but it is not the Bak Hsing way. As some of my Bak Hsing brothers have stated on this forum, it is more than shared technique or as some call seeds. And like others here also say: this technique and that technique are not unique..we all have lin wan and chop, and gwa, and sow. Indeed, we all do. But what we all do not have is the teachings of Tam Sam.

I hope this helps shed a little light on how Bak Hsing Kwoon rolls. This is not a post about how we are different or better than others. If this is how you read this, we simply view gung fu differently. Just like any style out there, a practitioner needs to stick with their style to fully comprehend. And just as with Life and the truths of learning, it is a progressive journey and the gung is developed along the way.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

How does your Sow differ from Chan fam?:)

[Yao Sing]

"This is not a post about how we are different or better than others. If this is how you read this, we simply view gung fu differently."

Sorry but that's pretty much how I read that post. Maybe it wasn't your intent but it sounds to me like more of the SOS.

So while everyone else might have "lin wan and chop, and gwa, and sow" they don't have "the teachings of Tam Sam" which means what? Is that your way of saying you're special?

I don't understand. How is this any different than the Hung Sing BS going on in the other thread?

Not looking to start an argument here but it's getting old. You see the same thing going on in almost all the CMA.

[WinterPalm]

I don't see what the big deal is.
Hung Sing is different from Buk Hsing is different from chan or whatever.
They have strengths that the players use to their advantage and think makes them special. Nothing wrong with that.
Some tools and systems of thought work better for some than for others. What makes one a champion won't do the same for another. What one group thinks is essential to kung fu, another disagrees. Each have reasons and statements and personally verified experiments for why they are right, doesn't mean they are or aren't...just means they're different.
Do what you do, with what you have, and don't be jealous or angry because someone else has something else. Nor is there any reason to belittle it.

There is something special...without a doubt. Why would a boxer stay with the same trainer if it's all just jab, cross, hook???

nospam,
I'm pretty sure Rob showed me that form and went through it with me. All the applications I garnered were based on my black tiger training...not CLF. However, if I had the understanding and was a CLF guy like you, the applications and movements would make a different type of sense. So it's all good when it's good kung fu. I imagine your mode of thought is based on Buk Hsing so that when you see good kung fu, you immediately reference it to what you intrinsically know and do, and see how you would utilize it according to your ingrained movement patterns.
Good post! Although not a CLF guy, what you guys are doing is about the only other type of kung fu I'm interested in.

[seisei]

well thought out statement.
m

[nospam]

The only way anyone can understand is to learn from a Bak Hsing practitioner. I invite you to train with me for 2 years and you will understand the difference and will have some skill on using it effectively.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[diego]

The only way anyone can understand is to learn from a Bak Hsing practitioner. I invite you to train with me for 2 years and you will understand the difference and will have some skill on using it effectively.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

:D in the immortal words of Phil Hartman from Saturday Night Live "Allll Right" pz

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What is the character for the word 'Jeen'? I don't know this word...what does it mean? I haven't heard it before...

[Golden Arms]

Not to be off topic, but can I just say that that is probably the best music I have heard in a MA clip, ever? Awesome!

[Yao Sing]

Iron Maiden rocks!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

wait, I just read an earlier post....

Do you mean Sahp Jih JEET Kuyhn??

Jeet as in Intercept....why are you saying Jeen??

Not being antagonistic, just trying to clarify....

I thought everyone heard of Jeet Kuyhn Doe?

[lkfmdc]

maybe it was just a typo when he created the post?

wait, I just read an earlier post....

Do you mean Sahp Jih JEET Kuyhn??

Jeet as in Intercept....why are you saying Jeen??

Not being antagonistic, just trying to clarify....

I thought everyone heard of Jeet Kuyhn Doe?

how about we argue about it for 15 pages :D

[nospam]

戰

It can also be spelled: Jin and means War, altho we use it as Fight or Combat.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[lkfmdc]

It can also be spelled: Jin and means War, altho we use it as Fight or Combat.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

ah, well, I know that character and it makes sense (but is different than "jeet" as in "intercept")

"Jin" is often associated with San Sao (applications)

[nospam]

Jeet Kune Do. I was reading a little bit on that. Interestingly enough, I think he used Bak Hsing concepts. We all know he was impressed with the style.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[diego]

Jeet Kune Do. I was reading a little bit on that. Interestingly enough, I think he used Bak Hsing concepts. We all know he was impressed with the style.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

I heard that he trained with kajukenbo who was doing mma in the 50's, maybe he did some hop ga style as well in sf...he was buddies with BS GM's the Lacey Brothers:)

what concepts do you feel he plagarized sp?.

[nospam]

My thoughts about Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do & the Bak Hsing Kwoon.

Here is where I read the info on JKD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do

Lee almost always chose to put his power hand in the "lead," with his weaker hand back, within this stance he used elements of Boxing, Fencing and Wing Chun. Just like fencing, he labeled this position the "On Guard" position. Lee incorporated this position into his JKD as he felt it provided the best overall mobility. Lee felt that the dominant or strongest hand should be in the lead because it would perform a greater percentage of the work.

This is a Bak Hsing Kwoon method.

Lee felt the dynamic property of JKD was what enabled its practitioners to adapt to the constant changes and fluctuations of live combat. Lee believed that these decisions should be done within the context of "real combat" and/or "all out sparring". He believed that it was only in this environment that a person could actually deem a technique worthy of adoption.

This mirrors Bak Hsing Kwoon training.

Bruce Lee did not stress the memorization of solo training forms or "Kata", as most traditional styles do. Lee believed that real combat was alive and dynamic.

Again, Bak Hsing Kwoon.

When confronting an incoming attack, the attack is parried or deflected and a counter attack is delivered at the same time. Not as advanced as a stop hit but more effective than blocking and counter attacking in sequence. This is also practiced by some Chinese martial arts.

A tenet of Bak Hsing Kwoon.

JKD practitioners believe they should target their kicks to their opponent's shins, knees, thighs, and mid section. These targets are the closest to the foot, provide more stability and are more difficult to defend against.

Although we have Northern kicks, low is the real way to go and make up the primary Bak Hsing Kwoon kicking way.

Now I realise this is more universal but regardless quite representative of Bak Hsing:

Five Ways Of Attack

* Single Angular Attack (SAA) and its converse Single Direct Attack (SDA).
* Hand Immobilization Attack (HIA) and its counterpart Foot Immobilization attack, which make use of trapping to limit the opponent's function with that appendage.
* Progressive Indirect Attack (PIA). Attacking one part of the opponent's body followed by attacking another part as a means of creating an opening.
* Attack By Combinations (ABC). This is using multiple rapid attacks, with volume of attack as a means of overcoming the opponent.
* Attack By Drawing (ABD). This is creating an opening with positioning as a means of counter attacking.

A philosophical approach:


Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is.

Now many will say this is how they perform their gung fu but many still do not. I am still learning and practising in this regard, as this is the highest of skill and understanding and must be applied or reworked through an entire style. And I also believe there are many levels of achievement in this regard..as is the only natural way.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[Golden Arms]

I don't know that it is the highest form of understanding, but it is a pretty good high level functional method. There are however, guys that know more in their chosen methods out there as well.

[TenTigers]

jeen kuen can be War, or Battle Fist, or Arrow Fist. Saam Jeen Kuen (Three Battles Fist), Hung-Ga Jeen Kuen (Arrow Fist) Sam Bo Gin (Jeen) Three Step Arrow. (In our line we call it Sam Bo Ging-Three Step Power, but that's another story)

[nospam]

Expressing gung fu as simple and natural movement is not its highest form? I disagree. Of course along with that expression comes other abilities such as the development of ging.

For me, gung fu is a study in movement. All styles break movement down and slowly, methodically bring it back together to its natural state. Any athlete/practitioner no matter the specialty breaks the whole down to its individual parts then practises, trains and develops these parts in their various stages, all the while adding back each part to the whole until the whole becomes a part of the practitioner. Why do you think people of this ability are called Masters. They have undertaken the journey and understand the movement of their specialty to their uniqueness. They have joined with the movement: they are the movement. Be like water.

To put it bluntly Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[diego]

My thoughts about Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do & the Bak Hsing Kwoon.

Here is where I read the info on JKD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do

Lee almost always chose to put his power hand in the "lead," with his weaker hand back, within this stance he used elements of Boxing, Fencing and Wing Chun. Just like fencing, he labeled this position the "On Guard" position. Lee incorporated this position into his JKD as he felt it provided the best overall mobility. Lee felt that the dominant or strongest hand should be in the lead because it would perform a greater percentage of the work.

This is a Bak Hsing Kwoon method.

Lee felt the dynamic property of JKD was what enabled its practitioners to adapt to the constant changes and fluctuations of live combat. Lee believed that these decisions should be done within the context of "real combat" and/or "all out sparring". He believed that it was only in this environment that a person could actually deem a technique worthy of adoption.

This mirrors Bak Hsing Kwoon training.

Bruce Lee did not stress the memorization of solo training forms or "Kata", as most traditional styles do. Lee believed that real combat was alive and dynamic.

Again, Bak Hsing Kwoon.

When confronting an incoming attack, the attack is parried or deflected and a counter attack is delivered at the same time. Not as advanced as a stop hit but more effective than blocking and counter attacking in sequence. This is also practiced by some Chinese martial arts.

A tenet of Bak Hsing Kwoon.

JKD practitioners believe they should target their kicks to their opponent's shins, knees, thighs, and mid section. These targets are the closest to the foot, provide more stability and are more difficult to defend against.

Although we have Northern kicks, low is the real way to go and make up the primary Bak Hsing Kwoon kicking way.

Now I realise this is more universal but regardless quite representative of Bak Hsing:

Five Ways Of Attack

* Single Angular Attack (SAA) and its converse Single Direct Attack (SDA).
* Hand Immobilization Attack (HIA) and its counterpart Foot Immobilization attack, which make use of trapping to limit the opponent's function with that appendage.
* Progressive Indirect Attack (PIA). Attacking one part of the opponent's body followed by attacking another part as a means of creating an opening.
* Attack By Combinations (ABC). This is using multiple rapid attacks, with volume of attack as a means of overcoming the opponent.
* Attack By Drawing (ABD). This is creating an opening with positioning as a means of counter attacking.

A philosophical approach:


Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is.

Now many will say this is how they perform their gung fu but many still do not. I am still learning and practising in this regard, as this is the highest of skill and understanding and must be applied or reworked through an entire style. And I also believe there are many levels of achievement in this regard..as is the only natural way.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

I read that some hop ga schools only taught through fighting, the teacher shows you a move and expects you to go out and try it...everyone does this but hop ga you have to try it to make it work. every move is full force you can't spar hop ga you can only fight it. this sounds all dandy and that and I don't know hop ga persae but when I look at some of the techniques i have been shown i can see that theory applied. I was shown things like catch the kick and scoop the groin at the same time...many of the defensive hands I was shown are actually attacking hands as they swallow the opponnents strike as you step into him with full body technique...your video about always moving forward was very interesting to me....when I step back into horse only my rear leg plants backwards like I don't step back it's more like rear leg leans back while lead leg arrows in for side horse stance and you will catch his strike and then follow up with another stance and full body strike. Ross mentioned how in Lama style a lot of the seed fists are used like western boxing where you slip the punch and follow through, deflect with your forearm and same fist hits opponnent which you have to practise through fighting at full speed it's not something that can be mastered with two man sets...:)

[Golden Arms]

Expressing gung fu as simple and natural movement is not its highest form? I disagree. Of course along with that expression comes other abilities such as the development of ging.

For me, gung fu is a study in movement. All styles break movement down and slowly, methodically bring it back together to its natural state. Any athlete/practitioner no matter the specialty breaks the whole down to its individual parts then practises, trains and develops these parts in their various stages, all the while adding back each part to the whole until the whole becomes a part of the practitioner. Why do you think people of this ability are called Masters. They have undertaken the journey and understand the movement of their specialty to their uniqueness. They have joined with the movement: they are the movement. Be like water.

To put it bluntly Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

I didn't say it wasn't good, I said that it is not its highest expression. I train with several guys that have trained longer than Bruce Lee was alive. He was not the pinnacle of what is or was out there, he was however, open with his thoughts, which I am very thankful for.

[nospam]

Ah..you are talking about Bruce.

It's all good.

nospam
:cool:

[Golden Arms]

I was speaking about him, as well as the concepts presented. :D