Defence Against Front Tackles [Archive]

Vankuen

03-25-2008, 12:29 AM

Do you know why no one has metioned any wing chun solutions to the double leg takedown (or single leg for that matter)? Because that system really doesn't have a said defense against it. That system wasn't designed for that.

The fact of the matter is, not every system has the answer for every attack. So the solution is, to find a defense that works, regardless of where it comes from. Although I personally think that trying to confine one's defenses to a particular system is stupid and dangerous, I will give a pointer on it.

Simply try having a wrestler, or BJJ'er, or MMA'ist friend come at you over and over again. Try using different wing chun techniques, be it the chain punch, a knee, the YGKYM rooting and some attack, a step away and redirection, or whatever you want. Be pragmatic about it and see if it works.

Then, try the defense the way the guys that defend against it all the time do. In other words, try the defense that other wrestlers, BJJ'ers, or MMA'ists do.

See what works for YOU, and stick with it. Loyalty to your style or your teacher is all well and good; but only you are going be responsible for protecting yourself...your grand sifu isn't going to walk around with you to protect you. So my advice is to get as good at wing chun as you desire. Focus on it your whole life if you want, but try and understand the dynamics of it, and don't be afraid to acknowledge it's design limitations (in addition to it's strengths). Honesty is the best policy when talking about fighting. Over-confidence is a killer.

Long story short: just about every martial arts system is simply a quid pro quo method. You give up learning x skill to learn y skill. The reason is because most systems are based on a particular area that the founder was especially good at, thus the reason why the style became popular.

Good luck!

Vajramusti

03-25-2008, 01:45 AM

Do you know why no one has metioned any wing chun solutions to the double leg takedown (or single leg for that matter)? Because that system really doesn't have a said defense against it. That system wasn't designed for that.
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((You are entitled to your opinion-based on what you know))

joy chaudhuri

James O

03-25-2008, 02:27 AM

The whole reason I posted this in the first place was to see what tactics or techniques people may have for a front takedown. Never did I say that it must follow Wing Chun doctrine.
I was then going to assess and experiment with what others had shared until I had something that worked effectively for me.

So far, noone has helped me at all.

unkokusai

03-25-2008, 05:29 AM

Well, the level of ignorance you have expressed so far on the subject can really be off-putting but:

SPRAWL

Start with that and come back when you are ready for more.

James O

03-25-2008, 05:37 AM

Well, the level of ignorance you have expressed so far on the subject can really be off-putting but:

SPRAWL

Start with that and come back when you are ready for more.

Have I done something to personally offend you, or are you usually this rude ?

Vankuen

03-25-2008, 05:58 AM

unkokusai

03-25-2008, 07:33 AM

Have I done something to personally offend you, or are you usually this rude ?

I'm usually kind of rude, to be honest.

Mr Punch

03-25-2008, 08:24 AM

LMAO, it's true, he is.

He's right, though.

Furthermore, when people are trying to point you in the right direction, you come back with nonsense like Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you.straight from the Uncle Ned school of rabbit shooting. Nobody 'charges straight at you' and most grapplers can drop a double leg on you from well within your comfort range as quick as most chunners can find a lop sao.

As people have said, generally the best answer is sprawl. If you're lucky and you are fighting a head-down-charge scrub, a step back, uppercut/knee/box to the ears may just work. It helps if they're drunk. Either way, you need to practice it against someone who knows what they're doing.

Incidentally, in relation to chun, Van is completely correct: there didn't appear to be any kind of shot around when wing chun was developed, and there aren't many in the history of kung fu (I'm being generous - I haven't seen evidence of any but I suppose there may be), so wing chun doesn't have an answer. There may be retrofitted versions:

1) I know there are elements of biu jee and its forerunners that I've found can help some people to understand the dynamics of a sprawl, but in general its like reinventing the wheel and deciding that square is better. Check out an art that specializes in it.

2) 'Footwork footwork footwork' is the mantra from wing chun guys 'in the know', along with 'distancing distancing distancing', 'angles angles angles' etc etc etc... may as well be the diamond sutra or all the good it'll do you against a fast committed wrestler/JJka. Save that one for the scrubs.

tattooedmonk

03-25-2008, 08:37 AM

No one is being rude...and people have already mentioned the correct method of defense.

Tell you what...email Joy. Apparently he's got some secret technique that's been passed down since the wing chun was created that is a sure fire winner against the double leg takedown. So far I've seen no wing chun person that could stop one. Not one. If they do...it won't be a wing chun technique.

Maybe you can get Joy to post up a vid of a skilled fighter trying to take him down and Joy defending it successfully. Fat chance though. No pun intended. And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??

NO wing chun practitioner EVER can defend against a takedown using WC??

I bet you believe that the best fighters in the world are in WEC and UFC and that none of them can be beaten by someone outside of thoses organizations, right??

And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??:rolleyes::eek::rolleyes:

tattooedmonk

03-25-2008, 08:59 AM

I think most of the people on this forum who are no longer CMA practitioners and now are MMA practitioners should check themselves. I mean really. To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid. If any of you took the CMA that you were taught and used them to their fullest potential you would find that there are plenty of answers to the questions that might be asked. But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding. You compartmentalize everything that has been taught to you and do not think of it as a live , moving , continuous and evolving. You were taught it one way you only use it one way.

Ever since it became outlawed , demilitarized ( lacking martial intent and application)and then a business, CMA / TMA have not taught the full and complete scope of their respective arts. I think alot can be learned from ,like the fact that all martial arts at one time were like it. You can not reinvent the wheel . All the moves have been done before.

CMA has always been an MMA.

At one time Shuai Jiao /Chiao li / etc. had kicking / punching/ throwing and grappling. Notice that the grappling is after the throwing?? To me this is an indication that Chin Na can be done on the ground after the person has been taken down. I have never heard , except from MMA guys and CMa guys who only learned CMA on a superficial level, that Chin Na is only used standing up and that there are no strategies for groundfighting ( grappling/ striking).

Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??

I was taught CMA groundfighting over 17 years ago.

James O

03-25-2008, 09:40 AM

Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.

unkokusai

03-25-2008, 10:01 AM

Nice knowin' ya. Good luck with the 'anti head-dives.' I'm sure you'll be the hero of your third cousin's wedding when your drunk Uncle Earl takes a dive at you from 7 feet away, passing out before he even gets to you.

"Cousin Dude! Where did you learn to fight like that?"

"Its a Wing Chun thing, you wouldn't understand."

unkokusai

03-25-2008, 10:05 AM

I think most of the people on this forum who are no longer CMA practitioners and now are MMA practitioners should check themselves. I mean really.

Whoa, you mean really? Well that's different. Why didn't you say so before?

sanjuro_ronin

03-25-2008, 01:11 PM

Sure, they may dance around their opponents at first if that's what you are saying but when they decide to get in close and charge at you trying to tackle you down, they'll charge straight at you. I suppose I used the words 'charging straight' to emphasize their aggressive nature.
Anyway, nobody has expressed any counter tactics or techniques for this attack except to knee them which surely would send you to ground since you would then be on only 1 leg, or to uppercut them in the face which probably wouldn't stop them taking hold on you and bringing you to the ground.

I think that if you really want to have the answer to a well done take down attempt ( not the actual take down, that is a different thing), you need to train with guys that are excellent at take downs, they will open your eyes to the numerous ways they can take you down and from all different ranges and angles, you then take that info and see how to best use it in your system of H2H.
The sprawl is a great place to start because it not only takes your opponents targets away, it put you in a superiour position to launch a counter-attack(s).
If you have issues dealing with the Jab, you train with boxers, issues dealing with the low round kick or strikes in the clinch, you train with MT guys.

Whenever you want to focus on dealing with a specialized skill set, like a take down, train with people that specialize in it.

James O

03-25-2008, 02:37 PM

That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.

sanjuro_ronin

03-25-2008, 03:18 PM

One thing though, and this is very important, training with people well trained in a specific skill set is NOT the same as training with people in your own school or gym that THINK they can do that skill set.
EX:
I took a Shuai Chaio guy to a judo class once and he was thrown around like a rag doll, I then took one of the judo guys to the SC class and HE was thrown around like a rag doll and the skill sets are far more similar than they are different.

Trust me when I say that, defending the take down VS a well trained grappler and doing the same VS a guy that "knows" how to do a take down is quite a different thing.

Vankuen

03-25-2008, 07:12 PM

And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??

NO wing chun practitioner EVER can defend against a takedown using WC??

I bet you believe that the best fighters in the world are in WEC and UFC and that none of them can be beaten by someone outside of thoses organizations, right??

And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??:rolleyes::eek::rolleyes:

Sorry If I offended you with saying that wing chun had no defense for the tackle. But since you would like to know my qualifications and why I said it, I'll oblige.

I've trained in martial arts since I was 5 years old. I'm 31 now. My first style was karate, my first black belt was in TKD. In my teen years, my training focused on fighting styles then like wing chun, boxing, and muay thai; and by the way to this day--those are my longest practiced and strongest skillsets. I've got experience from a number of wing chun people/systems and also a couple of different thai coaches. But from there I started to learn a lot of traditional chinese shaolin martial arts. Jingang Quan and Wu xing Chuan. In the process learned lots of chin na, shiua jiao, tai chi, and weapons. I actually preferred Sanda the best...because we were able to incorporate all the prementioned in a full contact arena where I could use the strikes AND throws. Anyway...since MMA was becoming even more popular, I decided it was time to learn some ground game, because a smart fighter stays with the times and adapts to his or her surroundings. I learned BJJ for almost a year, mainly to keep myself out of trouble so I could get back to my own preferred methods. Now I maintain my wing chun, boxing, and muay thai for the most part.

You see, I've been a mixed martial artist see well before being an mma'er was popular. I've trained in a number of wing chun schools and from a number of lineages. None had a defense for the takedown other than stay away or rotate out of the way. None really worked because one theory was contradictory to the wing chun method of shooting in, and the other just simply didn't work.

Just in case you didn't know, most traditional arts were also formulated from mixing martial arts. None of it is pure my friend. So adapting outside your system or adapting your current system is simply evolution and improvement. The pragmatic process has been lost somewhere though...probably when teachers wanted to retain students and keep them under contract and so someone started talking crap about loyalty to the system and everything can be found in the forms bull. Be loyal to yourself, because it's only you that's going to determine the outcome of any of your fights.

Vankuen

03-25-2008, 07:27 PM

I think most of the people on this forum who are no longer CMA practitioners and now are MMA practitioners should check themselves. I mean really. To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid.

By your own admittance, being a CMA artist is a MMA'ist. I don't care where the technique comes from, as long as it works (for me).

If any of you took the CMA that you were taught and used them to their fullest potential you would find that there are plenty of answers to the questions that might be asked. But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding. You compartmentalize everything that has been taught to you and do not think of it as a live , moving , continuous and evolving. You were taught it one way you only use it one way.

The answer is in the forms right? Most people who want to learn to fight don't have time to study the same form set for 10 years before figuring out how to adapt their system to defend something. It's not about lack of patience, it's about efficiency.

Ever since it became outlawed , demilitarized ( lacking martial intent and application)and then a business, CMA / TMA have not taught the full and complete scope of their respective arts. I think alot can be learned from ,like the fact that all martial arts at one time were like it. You can not reinvent the wheel . All the moves have been done before.

CMA has always been an MMA.

Absolutely correct. So then why are you trying to "figure out" something from your own style when the answers are out there right now being used by people who are proficient in it already? The human body can only be used so many different ways, why does it matter what "style" a move comes from?

At one time Shuai Jiao /Chiao li / etc. had kicking / punching/ throwing and grappling. Notice that the grappling is after the throwing?? To me this is an indication that Chin Na can be done on the ground after the person has been taken down. I have never heard , except from MMA guys and CMa guys who only learned CMA on a superficial level, that Chin Na is only used standing up and that there are no strategies for groundfighting ( grappling/ striking).

Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??

I was taught CMA groundfighting over 17 years ago.

Yep...Shuai Jiao was the predecessor to all of this stuff in my opinion--to Judo and Jujutsu. I've used my chin na in that BJJ class that I took in Florida and people were like WTF?! Because I improvised using what i knew at the time to try and survive in my new environment. They'd never seen a wrist lock done on someone in there since they focus on large joint manipulation as opposed to small joint.

sanjuro_ronin

03-25-2008, 07:30 PM

Sorry If I offended you with saying that wing chun had no defense for the tackle. But since you would like to know my qualifications and why I said it, I'll oblige.

I've trained in martial arts since I was 5 years old. I'm 31 now. My first style was karate, my first black belt was in TKD. In my teen years, my training focused on fighting styles then like wing chun, boxing, and muay thai; and by the way to this day--those are my longest practiced and strongest skillsets. I've got experience from a number of wing chun people/systems and also a couple of different thai coaches. But from there I started to learn a lot of traditional chinese shaolin martial arts. Jingang Quan and Wu xing Chuan. In the process learned lots of chin na, shiua jiao, tai chi, and weapons. I actually preferred Sanda the best...because we were able to incorporate all the prementioned in a full contact arena where I could use the strikes AND throws. Anyway...since MMA was becoming even more popular, I decided it was time to learn some ground game, because a smart fighter stays with the times and adapts to his or her surroundings. I learned BJJ for almost a year, mainly to keep myself out of trouble so I could get back to my own preferred methods. Now I maintain my wing chun, boxing, and muay thai for the most part.

You see, I've been a mixed martial artist see well before being an mma'er was popular. I've trained in a number of wing chun schools and from a number of lineages. None had a defense for the takedown other than stay away or rotate out of the way. None really worked because one theory was contradictory to the wing chun method of shooting in, and the other just simply didn't work.

Just in case you didn't know, most traditional arts were also formulated from mixing martial arts. None of it is pure my friend. So adapting outside your system or adapting your current system is simply evolution and improvement. The pragmatic process has been lost somewhere though...probably when teachers wanted to retain students and keep them under contract and so someone started talking crap about loyalty to the system and everything can be found in the forms bull. Be loyal to yourself, because it's only you that's going to determine the outcome of any of your fights.

I don't know of ANY PRACTICAL MA teacher that is against his or her student learning other systems to "fill in the gaps".
Cross training and mixing MA is the life blood of practical fighting arts and always has been.

History has taught us that.

Mr Punch

03-26-2008, 03:08 AM

And how many NHB fights have you seen with a BJJ guy taking down a Wing Chun guy??... And that unless you are doing Muay Thai and BJJ then you will never be able to defend yourself and are just a larpist , right??:rolleyes::eek::rolleyes:You've got good points, but the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of MMAists so far... I put this down to logical (sparring, full contact etc) training, conditioning and strength combined with the skills: so it really is a question of logic and not a denigration of CMA in any way. But that's just me.

To say that CMA does not have any answers to all the NHB / UFC/ WEC/ BBJ way of fighting is just stupid.I don't see anyone claiming that on this thread, but please, by all means, do continue with your programmed knee-jerk rant! :p :D

But no, most of you do not have that kind of patience and understanding...Now who's jumping to conclusions and making baseless presumptions about who's training what...?

Is it not Tim Cartmell who in his new book shows early 20th century Chinese doing ground grappling??Cool, I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard a lot about it and it sounds great... looking forward to it. He is, as I'm sure you know, in a distinct minority in CMA circles, and you can't really compare his techs to BJJ and MMA grappling. Not because they're faulty, but simply in terms of numbers. I'd love to go to one of Tim Cartmell's seminars and learn some of his stuff, but living in Japan, it's not that likely: and ask anyone which they have more access to; JJ, wrestling or CMA grappling, and I know the answer you'll get.

You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:

1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

Oh, and chill. :)

Mr Punch

03-26-2008, 03:18 AM

Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.Bye!

But before you go:

...The fact of the matter is, not every system has the answer for every attack. So the solution is, to find a defense that works, regardless of where it comes from. Although I personally think that trying to confine one's defenses to a particular system is stupid and dangerous, I will give a pointer on it.

Simply try having a wrestler, or BJJ'er, or MMA'ist friend come at you over and over again. Try using different wing chun techniques, be it the chain punch, a knee, the YGKYM rooting and some attack, a step away and redirection, or whatever you want. Be pragmatic about it and see if it works.

Then, try the defense the way the guys that defend against it all the time do. In other words, try the defense that other wrestlers, BJJ'ers, or MMA'ists do.

See what works for YOU, and stick with it. Loyalty to your style or your teacher is all well and good; but only you are going be responsible for protecting yourself...your grand sifu isn't going to walk around with you to protect you. So my advice is to get as good at wing chun as you desire. Focus on it your whole life if you want, but try and understand the dynamics of it, and don't be afraid to acknowledge it's design limitations (in addition to it's strengths). Honesty is the best policy when talking about fighting. Over-confidence is a killer.

Long story short: just about every martial arts system is simply a quid pro quo method. You give up learning x skill to learn y skill. The reason is because most systems are based on a particular area that the founder was especially good at, thus the reason why the style became popular.

Good luck!

So far, noone has helped me at all.Saying this, after Vankuen's long, helpful, detailed and impartial post is just plain ol' ill-mannered, pal.

That's good advice, thank you Sanjuro.Let's see... sprawl, train with people who sprawl and practice takedowns...? Hmm, nothing that hadn't already been said, which you'd have noticed if you hadn't been so busy pulling your thong out of your ass-crack.

Thank you for the answer but I'm not going to post on this forum again if the members here will not treat each other with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner.So, in conclusion: practice what you preach and **** off until you can treat others with dignity and respect and speak in a civil manner, you pompous ass... :D :D :D

Mr Punch

03-26-2008, 03:19 AM

Good luck with the 'anti head-dives.' I'm sure you'll be the hero of your third cousin's wedding when your drunk Uncle Earl takes a dive at you from 7 feet away, passing out before he even gets to you.

"Cousin Dude! Where did you learn to fight like that?"

"Its a Wing Chun thing, you wouldn't understand."LMAO... that was funny!

Mr Punch

03-26-2008, 03:22 AM

I don't know of ANY PRACTICAL MA teacher that is against his or her student learning other systems to "fill in the gaps".Oh come on, you haven't been out enough to meet the vastly superior-numbered IMpractical MA teachers???! :D

Cross training and mixing MA is the life blood of practical fighting arts and always has been.

History has taught us that.Again, people's definitions of practical are the moot point.

And I'm afraid you'll find many people were skiving off the history lessons...

sanjuro_ronin

03-26-2008, 01:14 PM

You're getting over-defensive: like I said, it's not a qualitative judgment necessarily, but a purely quantative one. For now, I've got two questions:

1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

Oh, and chill.

I have the book in question and it shows some standing and grappling moves that are found in wrestling and judo/jujutsu, which makes sense on many levels, from tha fact that the human body works in finite angles and the fact that grappling moves are consistent through the various cultures.
Tim is a BJJ Black Belt by the way.

sanjuro_ronin

03-26-2008, 01:15 PM

Oh come on, you haven't been out enough to meet the vastly superior-numbered IMpractical MA teachers???! :D

Again, people's definitions of practical are the moot point.

And I'm afraid you'll find many people were skiving off the history lessons...

LOL, you are right, I don't know of any MA teachers that are against cross training, maybe I should get out more.

Mr Punch

03-26-2008, 05:17 PM

I have the book in question and it shows some standing and grappling moves that are found in wrestling and judo/jujutsu, which makes sense on many levels, from tha fact that the human body works in finite angles and the fact that grappling moves are consistent through the various cultures.
Tim is a BJJ Black Belt by the way.Cool.

So, maybe you can answer...

1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

monji112000

03-26-2008, 06:17 PM

Cool.

So, maybe you can answer...

1) How many front tackles does he/you have? (Since that's the subject of the thread...)

2) How do they compare technically to BJJ/wrestling ones?

Everyone knows the best answer to a tackle or a shoot(they are not the same WTF?) is to run away. If you can't run then drop to a low horse stance. Try to channel your chi into your legs. This is what the BJJ schools do, they just don't want anyone to really know. The sprawl is a term Eddie Bravo coined after watching allot of CMA fighters. Redirecting , head control, distance, and timing are all myths. Just Run away... or pull out a gun and shoot him. thats what I do all the time in the gym.

sanjuro_ronin

03-26-2008, 06:53 PM

Everyone knows the best answer to a tackle or a shoot(they are not the same WTF?) is to run away. If you can't run then drop to a low horse stance. Try to channel your chi into your legs. This is what the BJJ schools do, they just don't want anyone to really know. The sprawl is a term Eddie Bravo coined after watching allot of CMA fighters. Redirecting , head control, distance, and timing are all myths. Just Run away... or pull out a gun and shoot him. thats what I do all the time in the gym.

Ninjas have been sent to dispatch you for revealing the ancient Gracie secrets.

sanjuro_ronin

03-26-2008, 06:54 PM

monji112000

03-26-2008, 09:49 PM

sanjuro_ronin

03-26-2008, 09:55 PM

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/u_tech2.html

click on the shoot demo clip, the 13th clip

http://fileserver.uechi-ryu.com/videos/shoot.wmv

No_Know

03-30-2008, 03:58 PM

High charge or in your comfortzone,perhaps (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=19651152)

Lower shoots or charges...work in progress (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=19982541)

Just seems relevant to the first post of this thread (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=19981790)

Some might say some such.

I No_Know

jackmcmanus21

04-01-2008, 10:51 PM

I'll stick with the sprawl....you can also do a variety of chokes from a sprawl as well. I've always found it as the best defense against most kinds of front tackles

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 05:46 PM

When discussing other styles of martial arts with my Sifu, we spoke of Brazillian JuJitsu and how they charge straight at their targets tackling them and taking them to the ground.

Obviously for a Wing Chun pracitioner, this is not where we want to be.
Any thoughts as to a good tactic to counter a front tackle? My Sifu showed me one but it doesn't seem to work for me.

I saw this one on youtube.com and it seems to be rather good:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FtXNPI7YFf0

Thoughts?
Does anyone have any better tactics for a front tackle?

Before I give my advice I would suggest that you ignore the forum retard and anyone else that is being rude to you.

Now, believe it or not there are Wing Chun lineages that practice ground fighting. It is not common to the Hong Kong lineages, but is present in the mainland chinese lineage that I practice.

I will not be able to give you advice on the ground fighting, because I am not at that level of training yet, but I can give you some anti takedown advice.

First of all if you want to prevent yourself from going down, you need to improve your striking yes YOUR STRIKING. Some of the strikers who lose to grapplers, do so because they are lousy strikers and not because they are lousy at grappling.

How many times have seen a grappler brush off the striker's strikes as if they were mere mosquito bites just before or even during the shoot?

Why? Primarily because the striker had not even managed to master his striking techniques before entering the combat.

Let me give you another example, there are many so called Tiger Claw practitioners, who couldn't claw their way out of paper bags. Why? Because, they practice their art superficialy, that is they learn the forms and perhaps do some "hop around" sparring, a la kick boxing and that is it.Real Tiger Claw practice involves turning your "claws" into lethal weapons.

Just as real Wing Chun practice involves turning your fists and palms into effective weapons, by gaining the ability to not just hit hard but with PENETRATIVE force. And that is just what real iron palm training all about.

How do you increase you striking effectiveness? Well, I don't know your level of training but I would say that you need to start praciticing your principle strikes (including the palm strikes), through thousands of times of repetition. At first practice by "hitting" the thin air only.

This will help to loosen your tendons and articulations. In time work the repetions up to 10,000 or more. You will be imprinting these techniques in your subconscious as well as developing "heavy hands".

While you have move up the number of repetitions, then start your iron palm training. In the old days kung fu fighters put great emphasis on iron palm training and the reason is that "stopping" power doesn't just come from wishing for it.

If you are serious about iron palm then ask your sifu and if he is the real deal then he will be able to recommend you a working training program.

Suffice to say, that if you not only hit like a sledge hammer but also with great speed AND from a relatively short distance, then you will be harder to take down.

Assuming that one has the stopping power then he can try something like the following example of being "charged":

Be in a position when you seem to be "offering" a leg to the grappler. As he goes for it, then pull back the leg, turning almost half circle, bridging the head with one hand while striking the side of the head with a palm strike or the back of the head with a hammer fist or chopping strike. A more skilled technique would be to sink the elbow in the back of the neck.

Again, for this to work you need to have the POWER and to PRACTICE it regularly.

I hope that my advice was at least partially relevant to what you were looking for.:)

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 05:51 PM

You really should train with decent grapplers.

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 05:52 PM

Now for the rest of you guys.

James O started this thread with a genuine enquiry. This resulted in a couple of retarded idiots, who wouldn't know real kung fu if it fell on them, coming out with rude remarks and the rest of you just buried your heads in the sand as if nothing had happened.

Shame on you!

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 05:53 PM

You really should train with decent grapplers.

You really should train with decent kung fu men.

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 05:54 PM

Actually, start with some decent kung fu women, and them work your way up. We wouldn't want you to get hurt now, would we?

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 05:55 PM

You really should train with decent kung fu men.

There you go again, seriously, you give crap advice based on what?
7 tears of training with who exactly ?

Drake

04-10-2008, 06:19 PM

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 06:41 PM

I don't know how MMA guys do their tackles, but what's keeping you from pek choi'ing the back of their neck when they come at you? Or lau kiu'ing an arm and then pek choi'ing their neck? Or just using an aikido tech and letting them throw themselves? Never tried the last one, but I've seen it work.

A well paced tackle or shoot (mostly shoots are used) is not a single attack, but usually done off either a fake or as a counter or as part of a combination of moves.
Its difficult at best to meet a tackle head on and while pivoting and angling are ideal, doing that when you DON'T know a tackle is coming is, to say the least, difficult.
Countering an attempted take down is like countering any other move, no one is just gonna throw a left hook at your head, they will throw it in a combination of moves or as a counter, so to think you can do A to counter B is silly because it doesn't take into account what happens before, during and after the event.

Don't know how clear that was...

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 07:04 PM

There you go again, seriously, you give crap advice based on what?

Based on real kung fu, which is something that you apparently haven't come across in your MA journey.

7 tears of training with who exactly ?

With REAL kung fu sifus and not with pseudo kungfu/kickboxers.

And as I said before and that any real martial artist should appreciate, it is the quality and not the quantity.

And then, how the hell am I going to explain kung fu quality to people who crosstrain kung fu with TKD and 10 other MAs at the same time?

For gods sake.

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 07:30 PM

Based on real kung fu, which is something that you apparently haven't come across in your MA journey.

With REAL kung fu sifus and not with pseudo kungfu/kickboxers.

And as I said before and that any real martial artist should appreciate, it is the quantity and not the quality.

And then, how the hell am I going to explain kung fu quality to people who crosstrain kung fu with TKD and 10 other MAs at the same time?

For gods sake.

Names?
Any ??

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 07:52 PM

Names?
Any ??

You will not recognize the name of the sifu I am currently training with. So what difference will it make if I give you his name?

On the other hand my Wing Chun sifu's name will appear on the site very soon when one of his students posts the details of his Siu Lam Wing Chun London Seminar.

Be patient.

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 08:01 PM

You will not recognize the name of the sifu I am currently training with. So what difference will it make if I give you his name?

On the other hand my Wing Chun sifu's name will appear on the site very soon when one of his students posts the details of his Siu Lam Wing Chun London Seminar.

Be patient.

What are their names and how long have you trained with them ?

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 08:17 PM

What are their names and how long have you trained with them ?

I can say anything in the forums. You will not be able to varify them either way. They are not sifus that are known by people such as yourself, so giving their names will be irrelevant.

My main kung fu style is Wing Chun and that is what I have most understanding and experience of and as a result that is what most of my forum input is concerned with. You will know soon enough about my Wing Chun school details.

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 08:24 PM

I can say anything in the forums. You will not be able to varify them either way. They are not sifus that are known by people such as yourself, so giving their names will be irrelevant.

My main kung fu style is Wing Chun and that is what I have most understanding and experience of and as a result that is what most of my forum input is concerned with. You will know soon enough about my Wing Chun school details.

If they would be unknown to me, what's the problem?
Names and how long you have trained with them?
I am sure there are a few here that are curious as to your qualifications to give advice on WC matters, especially over those that have decades in the system, so , names and how long have you trained?

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 08:38 PM

If they would be unknown to me, what's the problem?
Names and how long you have trained with them?
I am sure there are a few here that are curious as to your qualifications to give advice on WC matters,, so , names and how long have you trained?

Since, as you correctly pointed out that I advise on WC MATTERS, then my WC training is what is the relevant experience and not my other kung fu styles.

My experience in WC is no secret. The other kung fu systems that I study are my business and are kind of like aces up my sleave, so I don't wish to reveal that to anyone.

especially over those that have decades in the system

Those decades don't mean a thing if they have trained in McKwoons and you know that. They don't mean a thing if these "experts" come up with idiotic comments such as, "Siu Nim Tao is useless";"kung fu forms are useless"; "chi -kung training is useless"; "There are no internals in kung fu" and other immortally idiotic comments.

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 08:44 PM

Since, as you correctly pointed out that I advise on WC MATTERS, then my WC training is what is the relevant experience and not my other kung fu styles.

My experience in WC is no secret. The other kung fu systems that I study are my business and are kind of like aces up my sleave, so I don't wish to reveal that to anyone.

So who is your WC Shifu and how long have you trained with him?
"Aces up my sleeve"..Dude...seriously.

Those decades don't mean a thing if they have trained in McKwoons and you know that. They don't mean a thing if these "experts" come up with idiotic comments such as, "Siu Nim Tao is useless";"kung fu forms are useless"; "chi -kung training is useless"; "There are no internals in kung fu" and other immortally idiotic comments.

Context is everything.

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 09:06 PM

So who is your WC Shifu

As I said before, info regarding his soon to be held Seminar here in london will appear on this site soon and then you will have your info.

However, if this info for whatever reason doesn't appear here, then I will refer you to a link where you can see the relevant info.

and how long have you trained with him?

You already know how long I have trained Wing Chun and you have even referred to it condecendingly in some of your previous posts in other threads.

"Aces up my sleeve"..Dude...seriously.

You wouldn't have made that remark if you had any notion of what real kung fu can entail. I am not saying that you are a bad martial artist, all I am saying is that you don't know your kung fu, beyond a superficial level, that is.

Context is everything.

Yes, lets help this people hide their idiotic approach to kung fu behind "context is everything".

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 09:09 PM

As I said before, info regarding his soon to be held Seminar here in london will appear on this site soon and then you will have your info.

However, if this info for whatever reason doesn't appear here, then I will refer you to a link where you can see the relevant info.

Fair enough, I guess...

You already know how long I have trained Wing Chun and you have even referred to it condecendingly in some of your previous posts in other threads.

7 years? I wasn't sure that was Total time or with just this system/teacher.

You wouldn't have made that remark if you had any notion of what real kung fu can entail. I am not saying that you are a bad martial artist, all I am saying is that you don't know your kung fu, beyond a superficial level, that is.

You really need to stop making silly assumptions, though they are good for a laugh, they don't really add anything to the discussion.

Yes, lets help this people hide their idiotic approach to kung fu behind "context is everything".

There you go again.

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 09:34 PM

Almost forgot, his website should come on the air soon and when it does, then I will post a link, so that you can satisfy your curiousity.:)

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 09:36 PM

Did you bring this up on Bullshido a few years ago?
About challenge matches in Brasil and your teacher ( or teachers teacher) was Andri something or other ( sorry, I am bad with names) ?
What that you?
Chinese fist or something like that?

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:36 PM

Be in a position when you seem to be "offering" a leg to the grappler. As he goes for it, then pull back the leg, turning almost half circle, bridging the head with one hand while striking the side of the head with a palm strike or the back of the head with a hammer fist or chopping strike. A more skilled technique would be to sink the elbow in the back of the neck.)

Here we go again...

Offering your leg to an experience grappler, unless you happen to be an experienced grappler, is most likely to result in the expected outcome of him taking that leg, despite whatever theories you might be pinning your hopes on.

Folks whose experience with grappling is limited to "You go here, then I go here...wait! I wasn't ready!" 'training' with others in the kwoon just as inexperienced in grappling reinforcing very false expectations about what real grappling is like.

A recipe for disappointment and disaster on wake up day...

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:39 PM

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:40 PM

There you go again, seriously, you give crap advice based on what?
7 tears of training with who exactly ?

Actually, it was just three years of training. The rest of the time was him 'practicing' all by himself down in the basement.

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:41 PM

And as I said before and that any real martial artist should appreciate, it is the quality and not the quantity.

Hahahahaha!

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:42 PM

You will not recognize the name of the sifu I am currently training with. So what difference will it make if I give you his name?
.

HAHAahahahahahaaha!

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:43 PM

The other kung fu systems that I study are my business and are kind of like aces up my sleave, so I don't wish to reveal that to anyone. .

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaaaahahaha!!!

unkokusai

04-10-2008, 09:45 PM

You wouldn't have made that remark if you had any notion of what real kung fu can entail.

See previous comments (x 10)

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 10:14 PM

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2008, 10:14 PM

Yes is was. But I wasn't the one who brought up that name.

No, you didn't it was someone else.
I got it now.

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 10:22 PM

See previous comments (x 10)

Not to worry, I've got used to repeating myself with you the forum retard,who doesn't seem to understand simple statements.

By the way, take it easy with those retard pills, you seem to be laughing out needlessly all over the place.

Aren't those retard pills supposed to be administered by professional mental health carers? Or have you managed to break the spastic proof lids on those medicine bottles? You naughty retard.

Now, call that nice man in the white jacket to come over and to detox you, ok?
There you go now, and as always wipe that drool from your mouth.

HardWork8

04-10-2008, 10:23 PM

No, you didn't it was someone else.
I got it now.

Thanks. I appreciate the discretion.:)

unkokusai

04-11-2008, 12:11 AM

Be in a position when you seem to be "offering" a leg to the grappler. As he goes for it, then pull back the leg, turning almost half circle, bridging the head with one hand while striking the side of the head with a palm strike or the back of the head with a hammer fist or chopping strike. A more skilled technique would be to sink the elbow in the back of the neck.)

Here we go again...

Offering your leg to an experienced grappler, unless you happen to be an experienced grappler, is most likely to result in the expected outcome of him taking that leg, despite whatever theories you might be pinning your hopes on.

Folks whose experience with grappling is limited to "You go here, then I go here...wait! I wasn't ready!" 'training' with others in the kwoon just as inexperienced in grappling as they are only ends up reinforcing very false expectations about what real grappling is like.

A recipe for disappointment and disaster on wake up day...

HardWork8

04-11-2008, 02:14 PM

Here we go again...

Offering your leg to an experienced grappler, unless you happen to be an experienced grappler,

What if the one offering the leg is an experienced and powerful striker? I.e. He knows what he is doing?

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 02:33 PM

What if the one offering the leg is an experienced and powerful striker? I.e. He knows what he is doing?

Two questions:

1- Are you insinuating that all the strikes that have ever fought MMA don't know what they are doing?

2-What grapplers do you train against ?

HardWork8

04-11-2008, 04:04 PM

1- Are you insinuating that all the strikes that have ever fought MMA don't know what they are doing?

No I am not. I may however, be insinuating that most (if not all) so called TCMAs that have fought in MMA did not know what they were doing.

Now, are YOU insinuating that no strikers that ever fought in MMA ever managed to stop a grappler dead cold in his tracks as he was coming in for a take down?

2-What grapplers do you train against ?

I was lucky to have a kung fu brother, who was a good wrestler, here in London in one of the none WC schools that I trained in. He seemed to "approve" of the anti take down techniques. He was good! He would even try to catch sifu out.

A couple of times sifu let the wrestler take him to the ground and made him pay for it there, in the wrestler's own comfort zone, without rolling around the floor for half an hour, I might add.

By the way, sifu = late 50s. Wrestler = mid 30's (I am guessing).

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 04:11 PM

No I am not. I may however, be insinuating that most (if not all) so called TCMAs that have fought in MMA did not know what they were doing.

Now, are YOU insinuating that no strikers that ever fought in MMA ever managed to stop a grappler dead cold in his tracks as he was coming in for a take down?

I am certainly not insinuating that, I can name a few actually, can you?

I was lucky to have a kung fu brother, who was a good wrestler, here in London in one of the none WC schools that I trained in. He seemed to "approve" of the anti take down techniques. He was good! He would even try to catch sifu out.

A couple of times sifu let the wrestler take him to the ground and made him pay for it there, in the wrestler's own comfort zone, without rolling around the floor for half an hour, I might add.

By the way, sifu = late 50s. Wrestler = mid 30's (I am guessing).

And?

HardWork8

04-11-2008, 05:44 PM

I am certainly not insinuating that, I can name a few actually, can you?

Does it matter if I can name them? Does it alter the facts? Ok then, what about Igor Vovchanchyn (Russia).

And?

And that is it, I train kung fu and not wrestling.

You can crosstrain all you want, but the fact is, if you dedicate 20 years to a dozen(and sometimes irrelevant) marial arts and if you happen to be in a situation where you are facing another man in the street who has dedicated his 20 years learning an authentic "in your face" style of kung fu- in an authentic kwoon, using the authentic conditioning including Iron Palm, Iron Shirt together with hard and soft chi kung - and has mastered that one art in all its aspects.

Then suddenly it kicks off then you have a good chance of having that "cross-training smile" wiped off your face in seconds. THAT IS A FACT!

That is why these arts are still around without them having been major global sports events, sponsored by big money and etc. If trained properly, they do what they are supposed to do. Very efficiently and very visciously.

Having said that I am not at all implying that your chances of winning against that same person would not have been considerably higher in the sports arena.:)

SoCo KungFu

04-11-2008, 06:14 PM

You can crosstrain all you want, but the fact is, if you dedicate 20 years to a dozen(and sometimes irrelevant) marial arts and if you happen to be in a situation where you are facing another man in the street who has dedicated his 20 years learning an authentic "in your face" style of kung fu- in an authentic kwoon, using the authentic conditioning including Iron Palm, Iron Shirt together with hard and soft chi kung - and has mastered that one art in all its aspects.

Crosstraining is not segregative. That is the flaw in your logic. And why you don't understand the concept. Which is ironic because not that long ago you were arguing about which MA lend to better cohesion...

Then suddenly it kicks off then you have a good chance of having that "cross-training smile" wiped off your face in seconds. THAT IS A FACT!

That is why these arts are still around without them having been major global sports events, sponsored by big money and etc. If trained properly, they do what they are supposed to do. Very efficiently and very visciously.

Your perspective is too narrow. These arts are around for a multitude of reasons most of which have nothing to do with conflict at all. They are around because they are a cultural treasure, they are a tradition, they are values, they are continued as a method to healthy living, they are a window into another civilization, they carry religious importance and in some small portion of the total...some use them for the purpose of conflict...and even then the reasons are multiple and vary from one to another...be it to dominate, to protect, even in that with some measure of accepting the deep dark primitive side of ourselves we can find peace, embrace your own demons so to speak....and some are like me...that do them for all the above and at the same time for no other reason that the above are fun..

I don't think you have come to grips yet with your own personal philosophy yet, to be imparting your ideals onto another...

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 06:20 PM

Does it matter if I can name them? Does it alter the facts? Ok then, what about Igor Vovchanchyn (Russia).

And that is it, I train kung fu and not wrestling.

You can crosstrain all you want, but the fact is, if you dedicate 20 years to a dozen(and sometimes irrelevant) marial arts and if you happen to be in a situation where you are facing another man in the street who has dedicated his 20 years learning an authentic "in your face" style of kung fu- in an authentic kwoon, using the authentic conditioning including Iron Palm, Iron Shirt together with hard and soft chi kung - and has mastered that one art in all its aspects.

Then suddenly it kicks off then you have a good chance of having that "cross-training smile" wiped off your face in seconds. THAT IS A FACT!

That is why these arts are still around without them having been major global sports events, sponsored by big money and etc. If trained properly, they do what they are supposed to do. Very efficiently and very visciously.

Having said that I am not at all implying that your chances of winning against that same person would not have been considerably higher in the sports arena.:)

Funny that you mention IP and chi kung :D
Funny that you mention "authentic "in your face" style of kung fu :D

Those that know me know how truly funny that sounds !
:D

monji112000

04-11-2008, 07:49 PM

Ok...

I will set the record straight...

I am the sifu in question. I did teach him the ultimate anti-grappling style. I call it poking, becouse of the central technique eye poking.

So let it be known, I will be accepting challenges via World of Warcraft only.

I am a dark paladin orc, 5 level mage, and I will give my screen name to anyone who wants to test my anti-grappling skills(Only on World of Warcraft).

Sifu lung dong lip

HardWork8

04-11-2008, 08:15 PM

Funny that you mention IP and chi kung :D
Funny that you mention "authentic "in your face" style of kung fu :D

Those that know me know how truly funny that sounds !
:D

Then please enlighten me.:D

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 08:19 PM

Then please enlighten me.:D

After your last few posts, and that horrid thread you were involved in on Bullshido, I don't think you are able to be enlightened.

HardWork8

04-11-2008, 08:43 PM

After your last few posts, and that horrid thread you were involved in on Bullshido, I don't think you are able to be enlightened.

I just wanted to know your approach to Iron Palm.:D

sanjuro_ronin

04-11-2008, 08:48 PM

I just wanted to know your approach to Iron Palm.:D

You must be new here.

unkokusai

04-11-2008, 08:55 PM

I was lucky to have a kung fu brother, who was a good wrestler, here in London in one of the none WC schools that I trained in. He seemed to "approve" of the anti take down techniques. He was good! He would even try to catch sifu out.

A couple of times sifu let the wrestler take him to the ground and made him pay for it there, in the wrestler's own comfort zone, without rolling around the floor for half an hour, I might add.

By the way, sifu = late 50s. Wrestler = mid 30's (I am guessing).

Ouch! I am believing you so hard it hurts! :rolleyes:

unkokusai

04-11-2008, 09:01 PM

What if the one offering the leg is an experienced and powerful striker? I.e. He knows what he is doing?

If he is "offering the leg" he better be a grappler or he does NOT know what he is doing.

unkokusai

04-11-2008, 09:31 PM

Then suddenly it kicks off then you have a good chance of having that "cross-training smile" wiped off your face in seconds. THAT IS A FACT!

THAT IS FUNNY! Are you every decade-old kungfu cliche, Basement-Boy?

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 07:25 AM

You must be new here.

Well actually, compared to you I am. So come on, I would like to know what Iron Palm means to you? What is your breathing approach to the methodology?

And how do train it? Hitting the makiwara? The sand bag?

Do you hit the sand grains directly, Or do you crosstrain your Iron Palm with wrestling and just roll in the sand?:D

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 07:33 AM

THAT IS FUNNY! Are you every decade-old kungfu cliche, Basement-Boy?

Hello Forum Retard,

I am sorry that I haven't been paying attention to you recently. I have been very busy posting messages to those nice guys, our forum colleagues. If I don't answer their queries quickly, they get upset. You see, many of them are crosstrainers and hence do not have a lot of patients and can't wait for knowledge to come to them in good time, so being an understanding kind of a fellow, I try to give them priority, when replying to their posts.

Furthermore they have a lot more to say than you do,even if I don't agree with some of their views.

I hope that you do understand and forgive me if I don't just come out and kick your forum butt as often as I used to. However, I know that you cherish the attention so I will do my best to attend your wishes as often as it is convenient to me.

Bye for now, and please do keep wiping the retard drool off your mouth, it is so unbecoming of a "rassler".

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 07:35 AM

unkokusai

04-12-2008, 07:59 AM

You see, many of them are crosstrainers and hence do not have a lot of patients (sic) and can't wait for knowledge to come to them in good time.

LOL! You must be a very valuable $tudent for any $chool offering your favorite flavor of Koolaide! :rolleyes:

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 04:08 PM

Please try and understand my views on crosstraining and the logic behind them by reading my posts more carefuly, on on this thread and "the fighting Wing Chun" one. So that you don't end up making incorrect statements.

As far as the traditional chinese martial arts are concerned and their reasons for survival.
You should know that these arts are MARTIAL ARTS. They were developed at and for times of turmoil, to perform a function and that was to dispatch the enemy as quickly and many times as visciously as possible.

If these arts had not performed these functions, then they would not have survived long enough to become cultural icons or national treasures.

As far as the health aspects are concerned. There are many Chi kung methods and systems that are preserved, independent of the fighting systems.

I don't think you have come to grips yet with your own personal philosophy yet, to be imparting your ideals onto another...

And I don't think that you have come to grips yet with reading and understanding posts to make judgmental and negative comments about me.

By the way, if you are going to continue addressing posts to me, then please do so in a manner where I can quote your relevant statements. Thank you.

SoCo KungFu

04-12-2008, 06:56 PM

Please try and understand my views on crosstraining and the logic behind them by reading my posts more carefuly, on on this thread and "the fighting Wing Chun" one. So that you don't end up making incorrect statements.

How can one logically understand that which has no logic? You start off with how you think cross-training is negative, then you say its good, then you start talking about how masters didn't cross-train while at the same time saying the did. All the while you are mish mashing your views in two different threads...you change your opinion like changing underwear....

As far as the traditional chinese martial arts are concerned and their reasons for survival.
You should know that these arts are MARTIAL ARTS. They were developed at and for times of turmoil, to perform a function and that was to dispatch the enemy as quickly and many times as visciously as possible.

What's your point? Who cares what they were created for 200...300...600 years ago? What does that have to do with today? Riding on the backs of people long dead...one of the main issues with why TCMA is the state its in today. My grandfather, father, uncle all served in the military...as do I...doesn't mean I can shoot a gun to save my life though...(I can...but not without practice)

If these arts had not performed these functions, then they would not have survived long enough to become cultural icons or national treasures.

Family systems...closed door schools....athletic associations....go get an intro to asian studies book and learn up on how much value as a culture they place on family traditions...hmmm tradition...hey isn't that one of the reasons TMA become so popular in the west anyways?

As far as the health aspects are concerned. There are many Chi kung methods and systems that are preserved, independent of the fighting systems.

True but if you are going to speak of TCMA you must also account for the fact that it is inseparable to TCM. To say that TCM hasn't influenced TCMA is not only ignorant but you discredit the very masters you so covet.

And I don't think that you have come to grips yet with reading and understanding posts to make judgmental and negative comments about me.

Negative, maybe...judgmental, no....actually I think its great that you have taken such an interest into MA...I mean you could be out selling dope to kids. But enthusiasm is leading to make the same mistakes that have been made the past 2 or 3 generations...but if you want that's your decision...

By the way, if you are going to continue addressing posts to me, then please do so in a manner where I can quote your relevant statements. Thank you.

Copy and Paste...cross-train that with your quote function

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 07:37 PM

If you read my previous posts carefully, then you will see that any mish mash regarding my statements is purely in your mind.

No one is riding on the backs of lond dead masters. We are however trying to learn from them through their arts. If you don't see any significance in that approach then why do you practic kung fu? Or do you practice a modernised pseudo-kung fu?

As far as martial arts surviving just for the sake of tradition. You are wrong there again. Try to understand that things do not become traditions over night. And to not disappear "overnight" they will need to perform the fuction for which they were designed. After performing that function for centuries then they have become part of the tradition.

Do you believe that anyone in china can go to the government and say. Hello my family and I just invented a new fighting system can you declare this a cultural heritage and treasure? Of course, not even you will believe that.

Your example of your grandfather or other family members being in the military was a bad one. It really was.;)

And here you miss the point about TCMs, they would exist independent of Kung Fu, if that was the case. Or do think that all Chinese medical practitioners are somehow required to study kung fu.

Anyway, as the case it they both work and perform the function they were designed for.

As far as selling dope goes. I was never ever in danger of getting involved in that kind of business. I am happy to leave the dope selling to our security agencies (CIA et al) who seem to be doing a grand job of poisoning our youth.

Copy and Paste...cross-train that with your quote function

As I have said before, I don't like to crosstrain in irrelevant things. So why don't you post your statements like everyone else and save us all a lot of hassle.

SoCo KungFu

04-12-2008, 08:11 PM

If you read my previous posts carefully, then you will see that any mish mash regarding my statements is purely in your mind.

I haven't been kicked in the head that many times...nice try though....maybe you should be in politics

No one is riding on the backs of lond dead masters.

Quite the contrary...90% of TMA does this very thing

We are however trying to learn from them through their arts.

And you repeatedly fail to grasp one of their greatest of lessons....the story of the 3 young disciples and the willow tree comes to mind

If you don't see any significance in that approach then why do you practic kung fu?

I can and I do....you however, mostly likely a lost cause....

Or do you practice a modernised pseudo-kung fu?

This very statement shows why you failed in to quote you,"learn from them through their arts."

As far as martial arts surviving just for the sake of tradition. You are wrong there again.

If only this were true...

Try to understand that things do not become traditions over night. And to not disappear "overnight" they will need to perform the fuction for which they were designed. After performing that function for centuries then they have become part of the tradition.

To the contrary..there are a number of traditions which serve no purpose to modern man what-so-ever...
And as far as MA are concerned...I can think of 3 people off the top of my head that practiced MA for no reason other than the fact they're dad forced them to when they were young. They have no concern for fighting at all...why do they do it then? Because its in their family history!!

Do you believe that anyone in china can go to the government and say. Hello my family and I just invented a new fighting system can you declare this a cultural heritage and treasure? Of course, not even you will believe that.

Correct, and not that long ago to do so would get you death by firing squad. Another contributing factor to the downfall of kung fu. How do you think a lot of the kung fu now days survived? Because it was pasted down from generation to generation. I'm starting to think you live under a rock somewhere..must be expensive for an apartment in the UK...

Your example of your grandfather or other family members being in the military was a bad one. It really was.;)

You never had a connect-the-dots book when you were a kid, did you?

And here you miss the point about TCMs, they would exist independent of Kung Fu, if that was the case. Or do think that all Chinese medical practitioners are somehow required to study kung fu.

TCM can very well exist on its own....however you're an idiot if you can't see that TCMA would not be where it is today if not for influences from TCM. Evolution...the core to every single thing I just posted. And as to the leap from fighting to health? You see those guys back in the day...they new that most people are probably more likely to die from illness and injury rather than battle wound. So they made sure that even though the resources available for the average man were limited, they did the best they could to ensure that their practice not only would help them hopefully defend themselves (though many never fought) but also to stay healthy and live long life. Care to refute this? I guess you believe Buddhism never existed in the Shaolin temple either huh? Now which aspect do you think is more popular now-days? Fighting or health? Need help? Look at Taiji...

Anyway, as the case it they both work and perform the function they were designed for.

They did, but like anything they must evolve....and that requires those involved to do so as well....this is what everyone here is trying to tell you

As far as selling dope goes. I was never ever in danger of getting involved in that kind of business. I am happy to leave the dope selling to our security agencies (CIA et al) who seem to be doing a grand job of poisoning our youth.

As I have said before, I don't like to crosstrain in irrelevant things.

Yeah judging by those clips of your so called WC groundfighting...I can see you really have an idea about what is relevant

So why don't you post your statements like everyone else and save us all a lot of hassle.

Everyone else? Who do you think I learned to post from? Go practice your webfu

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 08:56 PM

Everyone else? Who do you think I learned to post from? Go practice your webfu

I'll leave the webfu to you and guys like you and the way I see it, that will be the only fu you will be good at.

You haven't told me anything new in your last post. You butted in the thread and got what you had coming.

If you think that I don't believe that kung fu has been evolving for thousands of years and will keep evolving long after we are gone, then you are very confused.

My issue is with people who try to evolve an art after gaining a superficial understanding of it. Now, read that line a few times so you will understand where I am coming from.

You must also make a distinction between tradition that is cultural heritage and tradition that is inside the cultural heritage of that particular family which could be a kung fu style or even shoe makers. Try to make give the correct examples for the correct subjects.

With your remark about tradtitions being passed down the family through generations you are implying the people who made those styles and practiced them were idiots. I will inform you that they are not. The idiots are the people who discount these art as useless ornmants. This shows ignorance and short sightedness.

By the way, the people on this planet who live most under a rock (an intellectual one) tend to be military personnel. Something for you to think about while your are inventing your own modern martial arts style in your garage.

While I did have a book whereby I connected the dots when I was a kid, I did not do it for too long as I was reading books from a very young age, while you still seem to be with your dot dot books. If you like connecting dot then do so regarding a good kung fu school. Believe me, you need one.;)

As far as the groundfighting clips are concerned, the question was wether there was groundfighting training in kung fu and I said yes while some of the others who have "practiced kung fu" (as well as bjj, judo, tkd,karate,wrestling,ju jitsu,FM), said no. So, that is my proof.

If you have technical criticisms regarding any of those schools or masters/sifus, please feel free to go and show it to them in PERSON. It is easy to criticise sitting behind your keyboard.

Again the question was, is ground fighting addressed in kung fu, most of the "experts" said no, and they were wrong.

This has happened to me in another forum as well. First nobody believes it, but when it is proven, they say of but BJJ is better, which had nothing to do with the question in the first place.

unkokusai

04-12-2008, 09:02 PM

This has happened to me in another forum as well. .

Maybe if you weren't such an ******* you wouldn't keep getting run off forums all the time.

HardWork8

04-12-2008, 09:13 PM

Maybe if you weren't such an ******* you wouldn't keep getting run off forums all the time.

OH more stars, it so nice of you my retarded friend. Always sending stars, sometimes referring to me as your champ. You really are a retard with a heart.

While you are here, why don't you try and take down SoCokungfu, just a while back he was looking for a retard to take him down to the ground.

I am not sure of his motivations, but I am sure that the both of you will have a lot of fun rolling on the ground, forever and forever.

There you see I have found a new forum friend for you. If you get to like each other, he may even get to wipe off your retard drool for you.
Now, you'd like that wouldn't you?

SoCo KungFu

04-12-2008, 09:28 PM

I'll leave the webfu to you and guys like you and the way I see it, that will be the only fu you will be good at.

You haven't told me anything new in your last post. You butted in the thread and got what you had coming.

I did?! What'd I win?:p

If you think that I don't believe that kung fu has been evolving for thousands of years and will keep evolving long after we are gone, then you are very confused.

My issue is with people who try to evolve an art after gaining a superficial understanding of it. Now, read that line a few times so you will understand where I am coming from.

Because you truly speak with the deepest levels of understanding...

You must also make a distinction between tradition that is cultural heritage and tradition that is inside the cultural heritage of that particular family which could be a kung fu style or even shoe makers. Try to make give the correct examples for the correct subjects.

With your remark about tradtitions being passed down the family through generations you are implying the people who made those styles and practiced them were idiots.

No...well..some...like the ones that thought their iron vest would protect em from bullets....but what I'm implying is that a family tradition of kung fu may be passed down through from parent to child...and yet said family members may not have fought at all...for generations....

I will inform you that they are not. The idiots are the people who discount these art as useless ornmants. This shows ignorance and short sightedness.

By the way, the people on this planet who live most under a rock (an intellectual one) tend to be military personnel. Something for you to think about while your are inventing your own modern martial arts style in your garage.

Oh wow...nice one...As opposed to say...In my basement? Hey didn't Unko ask you one time if you ever trained in Japan? No right? Hmm I have...I guess I like to take my rock with me....And while I care not to argue the issue with you...because now you are showing you are a royal @$$clown...you think your second hand force feeding of information that you call the morning news is adequate to tell you anything of what goes on overseas? More than those of us that have actually been there seeing it face-to-face?

While I did have a book whereby I connected the dots when I was a kid, I did not do it for too long as I was reading books from a very young age, while you still seem to be with your dot dot books.

ACTUALLY...if you must know...I've moved on to finger painting :D

If you like connecting dot then do so regarding a good kung fu school. Believe me, you need one.;)

Nope nope nope....my kung fu school is at the star that means you finished the picture :)

As far as the groundfighting clips are concerned, the question was wether there was groundfighting training in kung fu and I said yes while some of the others who have "practiced kung fu" (as well as bjj, judo, tkd,karate,wrestling,ju jitsu,FM), said no. So, that is my proof.

The only thing you proved was that your friends are totally inept to ground concept

If you have technical criticisms regarding any of those schools or masters/sifus, please feel free to go and show it to them in PERSON. It is easy to criticise sitting behind your keyboard.

Again the question was, is ground fighting addressed in kung fu, most of the "experts" said no, and they were wrong.

To say that kung fu addresses the issue of groundfighting means that it has found a method which by to render favorable results in resolution of said problem (the fight goes to the ground)....it has done no such thing. The people..do for themselves this...by dah dah dah....cross-training

This has happened to me in another forum as well. First nobody believes it, but when it is proven, they say of but BJJ is better, which had nothing to do with the question in the first place.

For your sake, I really hope you don't have to learn what people are trying to tell you the hard way....

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 01:35 AM

While you are here, why don't you try and take down SoCokungfu

Well, unlike you (100% unlike you) I actually could help him work on takedowns, and without vague references to absent 'masters' or illogical 'proof' of effectiveness by way of ancient history, or secret skills only taught to 'indoor' or 'senior' students or the like.

SoCo KungFu

04-13-2008, 02:19 AM

I actually do need work on me takedowns...the wrestler guys own me in BJJ....

position before submission position before submission.....

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 02:41 AM

I actually do need work on me takedowns........

Remember, a good set-up is more important than speed.

SoCo KungFu

04-13-2008, 02:54 AM

Remember, a good set-up is more important than speed.

I'm starting to realize that...its insane what some of these guys do....

One second they are in your face the next they got your leg. I try to cut em off but the way they can catch a flank and shoot in at your angle. Try to adjust and sprawl cuz thats really the only defense I know at this point but inevitably they can drive through and catch a leg while I have to go back to maintain balance. Next thing I know I'm in half gaurd or side trying to fight off my back.....

SoCo KungFu

04-13-2008, 03:44 AM

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 05:11 AM

Actually I do have a question...
When I can on a stroke of luck pull a half way successful sprawl and manage to keep my legs out of their reach, typically I end up trying to maintain control of the head/neck (that just seems like the only thing that stops their progress). After that though I'm a bit at a loss. It seems like everything I try ends up putting me in a compromised position and then I either have to try and pull into a guard and start from there or else eventually they take hold of something and drop me into a worse position. And being as small as I am...most of em got at least 25-30lbs on me, working under a mount or side is really tough for me now. I just get worn out.

What can I do to try and turn the table so I can put them on the defensive in hopes of catching a dominate position? Unfortunately most of the stuff I've learn thus far deals with once on the ground as opposed to arriving there in favorable positioning.

Wow, a lot of things you can work on from there.

Probably the simplest way at this point to train your finish after you've sprawled is to focus on getting behind him. To do this you need to clear at least one arm as you move around and behind. Easier said than done many times.

One way to do this is to try to take a front headlock after you have sprawled. Try to get yourself out in front of your opponent and take the head and one arm. Of course you need to be aware that this is just where he may be trying to drive through your sprawl, so timing is important. If you are 'spending time' after a sprawl you might be better off with a wizzer, crossface, and slightly off to one side. However, it you want to take the front headlock you'll have to get out directly opposite. By keeping the arm tight to the head with the headlock you can make it easier to clear that arm. Clearning an arm is one of the biggest challenges to getting behind him. It should be easy enough to get the leg on the same side as the arm you have trapped past that arm. To clear the second leg you can sort of open your hips forward and throw that leg behind you such that he will have a tough time catching it as you move past.

A lot of times its gonna end up a scramble anyway. A way to give yourself an advantage as you are trying to move behind is to try and extend the sprawl. Few people who know anything about takedowns are gonna end up completely sprawled out flat on their stomach no matter how well you time the sprawl (despite some ridiculous 'anti-grapple' theoretical defenses), but you can try to get more leverage once you have the front headlock by yanking that head and arm forward and down (and keeping your own hips back) in a really hard, violent motion. This can pull him further out away from his own base, getting his hips ahead of his knees, and put you in a more advantageous position. You have to do it like mean it, or he can just use it to power through your sprawl though. If you time it just right sometimes the exact moment he is reacting to this is when you can make your move to clear the arm and get behind him.

Once you've taken his back you've got lots of options.

There are a load of other ways to try and finish after a sprawl, but this is one orientation you could work on to get yourself into a good position after you've responded to the shot.

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 08:10 AM

Well, unlike you (100% unlike you) I actually could help him work on takedowns, and without vague references to absent 'masters' or illogical 'proof' of effectiveness by way of ancient history, or secret skills only taught to 'indoor' or 'senior' students or the like.

And of course, you would also fit in the category of the "retard" he requested in the first place.

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 08:16 AM

People are actually trying to talk about the topic now, Basement-Boy. Why don't you run along and make a fool of yourself elsewhere?

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 08:17 AM

That is it guys. Turn this kung fu thread into a wrestling thread.

You know, sometimes no matter how hard some of you guys try to intellectualize over kung fu, sooner or later you show your true colors.:rolleyes:

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 08:25 AM

For your sake, I really hope you don't have to learn what people are trying to tell you the hard way....

And for your sake I hope one day you find out how to read posts properly, oh ye master of "Japanese kung fu".

You have understood my posts the way you have chosen to understand them and that is fine. Good luck with your BJJ and make sure your balls don't get in the way when you are rolling on the floor.

By the way, I was on the phone with that chinese master from the video, the one you wouldn't fight if your life depended on it, yes that one. You were right, his hands ARE very small. He did however guarantee that he would have no problems squeezing your brain.:p

zapruder_bjj

04-13-2008, 09:31 AM

And for your sake I hope one day you find out how to read posts properly, oh ye master of "Japanese kung fu".

You have understood my posts the way you have chosen to understand them and that is fine. Good luck with your BJJ and make sure your balls don't get in the way when you are rolling on the floor.

By the way, I was on the phone with that chinese master from the video, the one you wouldn't fight if your life depended on it, yes that one. You were right, his hands ARE very small. He did however guarantee that he would have no problems squeezing your brain.:p

*shakes head* You do realize that people on this board actually know about kung fu right? They actually know about Chinese culture and history....right? You can go blow some smoke up some high school girls bum, and try to get some stinky on that tiny dangle of yours, but here you aint fooling us.

zapruder_bjj

04-13-2008, 09:35 AM

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 09:53 AM

Good luck with your BJJ and make sure your balls don't get in the way when you are rolling on the floor.

Don't you have a time machine to catch back to the 80s or something?

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 05:53 PM

Don't you have a time machine to catch back to the 80s or something?

Time machines exist in the confused minds of retards only.

Having said that and this is serious, so listen, if I needed wrestling advice I would come to people such as yourself who actually know what you are talking about and have the knowledge and arsenal to do what you have to in a ground situation, using your own actual arts. Please give others this credit regarding the practice of their own particular arts.

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 06:07 PM

Interesting that more than a few earnest devotees of kungfu have called your views, claims, and assumptions "into question" (to put it very kindly). Particularly those with much more experience than yourself.

You have responded with whiny, defensive petulance and little else. Like this little gem: "I am too much for you pseudo kung fu pretenders."

........

SoCo KungFu

04-13-2008, 06:10 PM

Wow, a lot of things you can work on from there.

Probably the simplest way at this point to train your finish after you've sprawled is to focus on getting behind him. To do this you need to clear at least one arm as you move around and behind. Easier said than done many times.

One way to do this is to try to take a front headlock after you have sprawled. Try to get yourself out in front of your opponent and take the head and one arm. Of course you need to be aware that this is just where he may be trying to drive through your sprawl, so timing is important. If you are 'spending time' after a sprawl you might be better off with a wizzer, crossface, and slightly off to one side. However, it you want to take the front headlock you'll have to get out directly opposite. By keeping the arm tight to the head with the headlock you can make it easier to clear that arm. Clearning an arm is one of the biggest challenges to getting behind him. It should be easy enough to get the leg on the same side as the arm you have trapped past that arm. To clear the second leg you can sort of open your hips forward and throw that leg behind you such that he will have a tough time catching it as you move past.

A lot of times its gonna end up a scramble anyway. A way to give yourself an advantage as you are trying to move behind is to try and extend the sprawl. Few people who know anything about takedowns are gonna end up completely sprawled out flat on their stomach no matter how well you time the sprawl (despite some ridiculous 'anti-grapple' theoretical defenses), but you can try to get more leverage once you have the front headlock by yanking that head and arm forward and down (and keeping your own hips back) in a really hard, violent motion. This can pull him further out away from his own base, getting his hips ahead of his knees, and put you in a more advantageous position. You have to do it like mean it, or he can just use it to power through your sprawl though. If you time it just right sometimes the exact moment he is reacting to this is when you can make your move to clear the arm and get behind him.

Once you've taken his back you've got lots of options.

There are a load of other ways to try and finish after a sprawl, but this is one orientation you could work on to get yourself into a good position after you've responded to the shot.

Awesome thanks. I think I'm going to focus of working from the headlock first. That seems to be the most natural reaction for me at the moment.
The MT guys tend to afford me more time to think about what I'm doing but the wrestlers....its just too fast.

And I know that's part of my problem. I'm too aggressive sometimes. And that can get me into trouble because I bite their setup and its costs me. So I need to work on that too.

So this week in class I'm going to focus on not getting faked. React to the shot, take the headlock/control the arm. I'm really going to work what you said about the weight and extending the sprawl. Thats probably going to be a big thing for me, leverage and all....I'm already giving up a lot of lbs. to some of these guys so I need to make sure my base is stronger than theirs.

Man I wish I got into wrestling more in HS instead of football. I know a lot of it at this time is just inexperience to this zone. I just tell myself if I can get one more tool a week, it will work out.

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 06:14 PM

*shakes head*

Don't shake your head too much. We wouldn't want your pea-sized brain rolling out of one your ears.

You do realize that people on this board actually know about kung fu right?

Of course there are people on this board who actually know about kung fu,but not as many as you would think.

This board seems to attract a lot of jack of all trades, who have not dedicated enough time to kung fu practice to qualify them to make some of the idiotic and sweeping statements regarding kung fu.

Yes, this forum does attract none kung fu martial artists who are too ready to get in there and have a go on "discussing" kung fu. You, yourself being another prime example. Your qualification: BJJ

Case closed.

They actually know about Chinese culture and history....right?

To "know" chinese culture and history you would need to read books.
To "know" kung fu, you need dedicated practice in an AUTHENTIC school.

You can go blow some smoke up some high school girls bum, and try to get some stinky on that tiny dangle of yours, but here you aint fooling us.

I have no intention of foolin anyone, specially BJJ practitioners and crosstrainers. To each his own. I only take issue when non-kung fu martial artists feel qualified to make sweeping and idiotic generaliztions based on their at best, shakey experience of what they call "kung fu".

The fact that none kung fu people such as yourself, hang around in kung fu forums to "prove" whatever that it is you feel the need to prove, demonstrates that it is not me who has issues with his "dangle".

I am afraid that you fit in this category more than any kung fu poster. You are out of your area here. This is not a bjj thread nor a MMA one. You got some chip on your soldier.

So, I would suggest you go and have your dangle operated, so that in the future you wont feel the need to go outside of your own "gym" to prove yourself.;)

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 06:20 PM

To "know" chinese culture and history you would need to read books.
To "know" kung fu, you need dedicated practice in an AUTHENTIC school.

Says the guy who can barely string a sentence together, and 'trains' all by himself down in his basement.

... :rolleyes:

SoCo KungFu

04-13-2008, 06:33 PM

When you sprawl keep your legs back and your weight on your opponent. If you want to keep the fight standing work a quarter nelson:

http://www.wrestlingcoach.com/****zer_3_quarter_nelson.htm

http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=3250

You can always just back out and stand instead of turning them or taking them to the ground.

Thanks for the links...I didn't know about those websites. gonna take some time to check em out.

Right now I'm going to try to focus on taking to the ground. It is BJJ class after-all:) I'm really having a lot of fun with the ground game. Most fun I've had getting my @$$ kicked in a long time :D

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 06:43 PM

Interesting that more than a few earnest devotees of kungfu

"Ernest devotees" says who? I have news for you. They can say what they want, but cross training kung fu with another dozen irrelevant martial arts is definitely not a sign of a "devotee" to kung fu. Hence their "confused" comments.

If you are going to train your kung fu in superficial way and as part of a mish mash of martial arts styles, then that is fine. By crosstraining you can feel in the gaps and by live practice you tone your fighting skills.

No arguments from me there. This approach works too. BUT my advice to people who take this approach is: "Don't call what you do kung fu, and don't make sweeping statements about it, as you have not practiced it profoundly".

It works the other way too. I don't know you, but you seem to know your wrestling. If I were a practitioner of wrestling and another dozen arts, then I would not have the specialist knowledge that you presumably have. That means I would be very careful on the types of statements that I made regarding the subject matter, specially if I had the audacity to enter a Wrestling forum to give advice.

have called your views, claims, and assumptions "into question" (to put it very kindly). Particularly those with much more experience than yourself.

Their time of practice is irrelevant, if they have been "learning" kung fu in McKwoon. It is a fact that most kung fu schools are not the real deal, even if some are better than others and can teach you some fighting.

Anyone can tell you that, and percentage wise I am talking about the high 90's. And some of these "experienced" kung fu gurus are the living proof.........

You have responded with whiny, defensive petulance and little else. Like this little gem: "I am too much for you pseudo kung fu pretenders."

........And that make them pseudo kung fu pretenders.;)

Eventhough, the "I am too much" remark, was a play with the wording of the other poster, as you obviously knew, when you quoted me.

unkokusai

04-13-2008, 06:57 PM

Your desperately transparent attempts at fabricating some kind of 'elitism' for yourself (after three whole years of actual training) is just sad, and the more you try to justify it the sillier you make yourself look.

SoCo KungFu

04-13-2008, 07:07 PM

"Ernest devotees" says who? I have news for you. They can say what they want, but cross training kung fu with another dozen irrelevant martial arts is definitely not a sign of a "devotee" to kung fu. Hence their "confused" comments.

San Bao Pai+Hung Gar+now a very small amount of BJJ....that's only 3...I mean maybe math works differently in your world...

If you are going to train your kung fu in superficial way and as part of a mish mash of martial arts styles, then that is fine. By crosstraining you can feel in the gaps and by live practice you tone your fighting skills.

Because you know so much about live practice in your basement.

No arguments from me there. This approach works too. BUT my advice to people who take this approach is: "Don't call what you do kung fu, and don't make sweeping statements about it, as you have not practiced it profoundly".

Interestingly enough...the man that organized the first kung fu system I studied was also a Judoka. Are you going to tell me that after 40 years he doesn't know what kung fu is? Nevermind the fact that worked as a professional body guard.....

It works the other way too. I don't know you, but you seem to know your wrestling. If I were a practitioner of wrestling and another dozen arts, then I would not have the specialist knowledge that you presumably have. That means I would be very careful on the types of statements that I made regarding the subject matter, specially if I had the audacity to enter a Wrestling forum to give advice.

Blind reverence...this is how cults happen...

Their time of practice is irrelevant, if they have been "learning" kung fu in McKwoon. It is a fact that most kung fu schools are not the real deal, even if some are better than others and can teach you some fighting.

Ironically you are part of that same crowd...whether you realize it or not...

Anyone can tell you that, and percentage wise I am talking about the high 90's. And some of these "experienced" kung fu gurus are the living proof.........

........And that make them pseudo kung fu pretenders.;)

Eventhough, the "I am too much" remark, was a play with the wording of the other poster, as you obviously knew, when you quoted me.

Keep it up and you wont get the pink ranger outfit....

HardWork8

04-13-2008, 07:25 PM

:DYour desperately transparent attempts at fabricating some kind of 'elitism' for yourself (after three whole years of actual training) is just sad, and the more you try to justify it the sillier you make yourself look.

Sillier to whom? The so called kung fu practitioners who don't see the significance of forms practice in kung fu? Who don't know the significance of the internals in kung fu? Who keep searching for aspects of fighting, some of which are present in their core arts, only if they bother to look?

No, I don't want their approval. I just want these type of "kung fu" experts posting in the MMA forums. That is all.

You know that I have more than 3 years under my belt. I have told you that before in other threads. Just like I am telling you now, I continue to train kung fu in a kung school , It is Wing Chun that I train on my own and with my sifu only when I meet him. So my training is 7 years PLUS. You are chosing to ignore those facts to enable you in "confused" mind to score points.

My more than 7 years of kung fu experience is 7 YEARS MORE THAN YOUR EXPERIENCE, yet you feel free to go around the kung fu forums dishing out empty in****s to whoever you please. If this forum was frequented by as many REAL kung fu experts that claim to be experts, then you would have had your butt kicked out a long time ago, by the members themselves and not even by the moderators.

Why, because a lot of our modern "kung fu" fighters relate more to a retarded idiot who doesn't practice kung fu, then to other kung fu people who are here actualy contribute and say something about KUNG FU.

Furthermore, what I say has nothing to do with elitisism and everything to do with AUTHENTISISM. And when it comes to authentisism, then even 6 months of training will put our knowledge of REAL kung fu ahead of pseudo kungfukickboxers, who have practiced for decades.:D