Defence Against Front Tackles

[HardWork8]

Keep yelling alll you want, Basement-Boy, but everyone reading this has seen you exposed over and over as a poseur, a fraud, and a very poorly executed troll.

Way to go!

Keep repeating the lies Drool Boy.

[unkokusai]

You are not getting anywhere here, Basement-Boy. Why don't you go back to the other thread where you tried to look like 'kungfu internal expert' over chin ups (of all things) and you are making an ass of yourself yet again?

[HardWork8]

"Let him Rant, so that all may know him to be mad".

I see that the shame and pressure of being exposed as a liar and a kung fu FAKE has caused a short circuit in your "brain" and you just can't stop repeating yourself. But you had it coming didn't you? You poor soul.

Not that Unko will be complaining about the repetitions, he actually likes them, as they help him (eventually) understand relatively simple statements.;)

[HardWork8]

You are not getting anywhere here, Basement-Boy. Why don't you go back to the other thread where you tried to look like 'kungfu internal expert' over chin ups (of all things) and you are making an ass of yourself yet again?

And why don't you start practicing kung fu so that you can actually make educated remarks on the subject.

That is if you manage to find a school that accepts people with your, ahem, condition. Actually, take my advice and wear a plate under your chin.

They might just accept you that way.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see that the shame and pressure of being exposed as a liar and a kung fu FAKE has caused a short circuit in your "brain" and you just can't stop repeating yourself. But you had it coming didn't you? You poor soul.

Not that Unko will be complaining about the repetitions, he actually likes them, as they help him (eventually) understand relatively simple statements.;)

"Let him Rant, so that all may know him to be mad".

[unkokusai]

Its nice that we can discuss takedown defense like this without being distracted by boring, idiotic, delusional trolls.






Oh that's right, we can't!!! What a shame. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its nice that we can discuss takedown defense like this without being distracted by boring, idiotic, delusional trolls.






Oh that's right, we can't!!! What a shame. :rolleyes:

We shoudl get back on topic, that's true.

[unkokusai]

And why don't you start practicing kung fu so that you can actually make educated remarks on the subject.



Yeah, if I train for just one more year I can catch up to you and be an all-knowing master of ... of... of stuff I can't tell anyone about 'cause its so secret and cool!

[HardWork8]

"Let him Rant, so that all may know him to be mad".


That is it keep putting your fingers in your ears,closing your eyes and repeating that statement, hoping that it will all go away and you can one day go back and give "Kung Fu" advice to the gullible.

Yes, keep hiding and trying to take attention away from the facts that proved you to be a dishonest person and blatant liar.

Bye for now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is it keep putting your fingers in your ears,closing your eyes and repeating that statement, hoping that it will all go away and you can one day go back and give "Kung Fu" advice to the gullible.

Yes, keep hiding and trying to take attention away from the facts that proved you to be a dishonest person and blatant liar.

Bye for now.

"Let him Rant, so that all may know him to be mad".

[unkokusai]

We shoudl get back on topic, that's true.

Maybe then Basement-Boy will STFU and go away, since he has nothing to say about it.

[HardWork8]

Yeah, if I train for just one more year

"More" than what? Zero?

Unkokusai, don't jump the gun. First we need to find that special school that has Drool Drowning Insurance....lol and see if even they accept you......LOL!

Then we will see how many decades it will take you to find your way there on your own.

Then we will calculate, hopefully with the help of some NASA scientists, how long it will take you to get to my level...lol.

Bye for now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

On Topic:

Striking VS the take down.

Typically most advocate either a low line attack, like a knee strike, or even a low round and even a front snap kick, or they advocate striking the back of the head/neck/back, some advocate striking head on or on a slight angle.

First off, striking the head and torso.
The back and back of the neck/head has been discussed so allow me to focus on the head ( top/front) and the side of the neck.
Once saw someone advocate a elbow strike to the head, basically smashing the elbow on the head ( be it forward or angled down) as they come in.
This can work, though its not as simple as just "smashing them as they come in", again something that needs to be drilled over and over.
A good shoot usually involves prior action that causes the target to commit high and leave his core vulnerable.
The elbow does need space to drive, space that tends to disappear quickly in a shoot from the clinch.
I have seen a short stabbing vertical elbow/forearm to the side of the neck work well, I have used it myself.
Since its off an established "guard", its easier to apply, quicker and angles you off as you deliver it.
Also leaves your hands/arms in a great position to control the head after the strike.

[HardWork8]

Holy schneikies....

this guy is still going here too? The last thing I read is when he had no clue about how to reply when questioned by an actual authority on the human body

Another condecending remark and an untrue statement.

If you bother to go back to the thread in question,then you will see that your "actual authority on the human body" possesses your lack of knowledge regarding traditional kung fu methodology.

[Old Noob]

On Topic:

Striking VS the take down.

Typically most advocate either a low line attack, like a knee strike, or even a low round and even a front snap kick, or they advocate striking the back of the head/neck/back, some advocate striking head on or on a slight angle.

First off, striking the head and torso.
The back and back of the neck/head has been discussed so allow me to focus on the head ( top/front) and the side of the neck.
Once saw someone advocate a elbow strike to the head, basically smashing the elbow on the head ( be it forward or angled down) as they come in.
This can work, though its not as simple as just "smashing them as they come in", again something that needs to be drilled over and over.
A good shoot usually involves prior action that causes the target to commit high and leave his core vulnerable.
The elbow does need space to drive, space that tends to disappear quickly in a shoot from the clinch.
I have seen a short stabbing vertical elbow/forearm to the side of the neck work well, I have used it myself.
Since its off an established "guard", its easier to apply, quicker and angles you off as you deliver it.
Also leaves your hands/arms in a great position to control the head after the strike.

Some posters to this forum earlier mentioned the sprawl. I wrestled for a while in HS and we almost always defended the straght shoot with a sprawl and what we called the cross-face. We weren't allowed to punch in HS wrestling, but a good cross face was not a pleasant thing to experience. The sprawler starts with the fist moving accross the bridge of the shooter's nose in route to their deltoid. As your fist moves across the nose, the forearm pushes the shooter's face and head outward away from your body allowing you to spin in the opposite direction and get the takedown. I think this technique would transfer relatively well. First, unencumbered by rules, you could really turn the cross-face into a nasty puch with follow-through (even in HS good, legal cross-faces have broken noses). Second, if the person is a superior grappler, you could use the sprawl/cross-face to gain leverage and disengage back to a standing position. Thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some posters to this forum earlier mentioned the sprawl. I wrestled for a while in HS and we almost always defended the straght shoot with a sprawl and what we called the cross-face. We weren't allowed to punch in HS wrestling, but a good cross face was not a pleasant thing to experience. The sprawler starts with the fist moving accross the bridge of the shooter's nose in route to their deltoid. As your fist moves across the nose, the forearm pushes the shooter's face and head outward away from your body allowing you to spin in the opposite direction and get the takedown. I think this technique would transfer relatively well. First, unencumbered by rules, you could really turn the cross-face into a nasty puch with follow-through (even in HS good, legal cross-faces have broken noses). Second, if the person is a superior grappler, you could use the sprawl/cross-face to gain leverage and disengage back to a standing position. Thoughts?

I have painful memories of a few cross faces.
They work well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to "low line" counters of the shoot/tackle:

Much more tricky than "high line" counters, first your balance is compromised, which decreases the power if your strike, make sit easier to be taken down and makes it hard to get a decent postition and control when you do get takedown.
That said, there are some viable options.
If the person is unskilled enough to initiate a shoot/tackle from a distance in which his moves are seen, a "lunging" knee strike can work very well.
Notice that the term used is "lunging", the knee strike must have LOTS of forward momentum to offset the momentum being applied by the attacker.
As I mentioned before, someone got a flying knee KO against an attempted tackle in a UFC match.
Knees of the sprawl are obvious.
Angling to the side and kneeing is also an option, IF and WHEN we get control of the attackers head/neck/shoulder area so that we can "position ourselves" to deliver the angled knee strikes.
Kicking is a far less ideal counter because, the even more present balance issue aside, kicks are slower than knees in this situation, and they chances of them "sneaking in" like knees do are far less.
Front snap kicks MAY work, on the most unskilled of attackers, though even an unskilled one with a size advantage can bull a kicker over without much effort when the kicker is on one leg.
Low round kicks are an option, but the angle is a bit to tight for most of them for any counter other than a highly telegraphed one from a noticiable distance.

[Old Noob]

In regards to "low line" counters of the shoot/tackle:

Much more tricky than "high line" counters, first your balance is compromised, which decreases the power if your strike, make sit easier to be taken down and makes it hard to get a decent postition and control when you do get takedown.
That said, there are some viable options.
If the person is unskilled enough to initiate a shoot/tackle from a distance in which his moves are seen, a "lunging" knee strike can work very well.
Notice that the term used is "lunging", the knee strike must have LOTS of forward momentum to offset the momentum being applied by the attacker.
As I mentioned before, someone got a flying knee KO against an attempted tackle in a UFC match.
Knees of the sprawl are obvious.
Angling to the side and kneeing is also an option, IF and WHEN we get control of the attackers head/neck/shoulder area so that we can "position ourselves" to deliver the angled knee strikes.
Kicking is a far less ideal counter because, the even more present balance issue aside, kicks are slower than knees in this situation, and they chances of them "sneaking in" like knees do are far less.
Front snap kicks MAY work, on the most unskilled of attackers, though even an unskilled one with a size advantage can bull a kicker over without much effort when the kicker is on one leg.
Low round kicks are an option, but the angle is a bit to tight for most of them for any counter other than a highly telegraphed one from a noticiable distance.

Exactly. Aside from the lunging or angled knee responses you mention, the kicks seem, unless your timing is uncannily good, to have too low a percentage chance of success and, from a balance/body-dynamics point of view, actually assists the shooter's momentum.

[Samurai Jack]

Yes, those cross face thingys are a killer. We didn't call them that in any of the grappling arts I've practiced, but the technique is the same and very painful.

I know that merely placing a hand on the back of the shooter's head and driving his face into the mat is often derided as "low percentage", but combined with a sort of sprawl "transition" it works very well for me, and essentially ends up turning the floor into the surface pressing into the shooter's face backed up by his bodyweight and momentum.

My aikido teacher did it to me once and my lips were cut all to hell by my teeth, the back of my neck was tweaked pretty bad (took a month to get back to 100%), and I had two black eyes. I honestly felt like I'd been in a car wreck. On concrete I might've been killed.

'Course that's what happens when you get ****y with someone who's a lot better than you.

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

'Course that's what happens when you get ****y with someone who's a lot better than you.

Ooops, some one spilled the beans on the uber secret !!

[unkokusai]

I know that merely placing a hand on the back of the shooter's head and driving his face into the mat is often derided as "low percentage", but combined with a sort of sprawl "transition" it works very well for me, and essentially ends up turning the floor into the surface pressing into the shooter's face backed up by his bodyweight and momentum.




The problem with that idea is that anyone who has any kind of serious experience with takedowns is NOT going to end up with his face planted in the mat as a result of a sprawl. That's the kind of thing that is only going to happen with someone who does the 'eyes closed, arms outstretched, dive blindly' thing that passes for a leg shot in typical 'grappling' training in the dojo/dojang/kwoon outside actual grappling training.

Its possible that someone will end up in a face down position, but that will most likely be the result of a very low shot (like a low outside single) or through the fight to finish or counter that takes place after a shot has been at least partially stopped. Anyone who goes from standing to face in the mat is a fish, and I don't think you want to train for that level of incompetence from your opponent.

[SoCo KungFu]

That is it, make false and dishonest statements about a fellow forum poster and then tell to go away instead of responding.

I will "go away" as soon as you guys stop making false and dishonest statements about me and as soon as you stop pretending that you actually practice traditional kung fu, because that claim and any advise based on that is dishonest as well.

He asks looking at the mirror.;)

You didn't need to. The presence of you and some of your glorified kickboxer forum buddies, provide more than enough poo references. Thank you.

However, you should do something about your obsession with ****s and poo. You keep bringing these subjects up MA threads.

It was meant to draw attention to the dishonest statements made towards my person. Such as the ones made by yourself.

Remember? The ones that when challenged, you conveniently avoided to provide proof, by going silent on me.

I wouldn't have needed to do that if some of you had attention spans that were at least slightly higher than that of a rabbit's.

You just don't want attention drawn to your lies and dishonest remarks.

Before you respect anyone else, try and develop a little self respect, so that you don't go around TELLING LIES and MAKING DISHONEST STATEMENTS about your fellow posters.

This would mean that then you would not have to hide behind your dog's you know what, nor that of cjurakpt, when challenged about those very statements.;)

You should be on lithium....

This guy is the reason I support human euthanasia.

[SoCo KungFu]

From the way it was described, I'm trying to picture the cross-face in my mind. If its the way I'm thinking it is, it would seem like that would be a not so bad setup for a kimura if you took the shot and instead used it to sorta jar them and while pulling guard, reach through and set the key lock. I guess they could just pull tight and clasp their hands behind your back and jam the key lock, but then you can still sweep them and take topside and if you still have the grip, pull kimura then....

I know its not actually defending against the take-down...

what do you think?

[unkokusai]

From the way it was described, I'm trying to picture the cross-face in my mind.


Why don't you ask some of the guys you roll with? Understanding the cross face is key to the next thing I wanted to suggest to you.

[unkokusai]

the take home message I remember was that, for a sport that ostensibly disavowed the use of striking, a lot of what he showed me had a healthy dose of "incidental" elbow and forearm strikes mixed in with the other stuff



Yeah, a good cross face is mighty similar to flat-out punch, and if the ref is in the right position it can be EXACTLY like one! :cool:

Lost count of how many times I've broken my nose! :D

[unkokusai]

how long it will take you to get to my level.



And what is your level, Basement-Boy, after all of three years?

[HardWork8]

aside from all his random silliness, this is what I find so sad in terms of the way so-called traditional "internalist" types run their train wrecks of thought:



to recap: Hardwork used the term "tendon loosening/linking"; he did not qualify it by saying he meant tendon in context of TCM, which undiferentiates tendons, muscles and ligaments as all part of the sinew system; because he did not do this, I called him on it, stating that tendons, as defined by current anatomy knowledge, cannot intrinsically "loosen"; I asked him to provide evidence to the contrary; he did not; he then launches into some sort of guru-like attitude, "guiding" me towards some sort of understanding of what he actually meant by "tendon loosening/linking", even though a) he still misses the point that I was calling him on an incorrect use of the term in regards to the contemporary definition - that's it, nothing else - he never seem to get that, no matter how I tried to explain it; b) I already have a very clear idea of what it involves in terms of my own internal practice (having done a rather comprehensive version of yi jin jing for ~12 years now which has very specific exercises to "loosen" the sinews - of course, there is a "western" physiological explanation for this effect, which I could provide in detail if people were feeling particularly masochistic...); c) I don't really care about his particular version, mainly because he's only been doing it for a few months anyway, so what could he possible have to say about it that would be of interest to me 12 years in;

so of course, because I tried to stay focused and on topic about that, he takes it as evidence that I have no idea about so-called internal practice at all - which is really funny, because if he wants to get into a classical discussion about it, I have no problem with that (although my interest, as I've stated elsewhere on the forum over and over again, is to create a context of being able to describe internal practice entirely from a non-"classical" perspective, and I firmly believe that this is possible - I mean, what's the point of chewing the "classical" terms over and over? they have been fully developed over centuries by others to a very high level - so nothing to really add there - which is why I am interested in breaking new ground...)

instead, he thinks I got lucky and that I am just confused; evidently Mr. Traditional is such an "expert" at internal himself, to the point where he is able to discern the level of someone else's practice based on a few paragraphs of text:


well, it's not really my gig to waive my "credentials" around, but FYI, here's my current teacher's (~12 1/2 years w/him) website: qigongtherapy.com
you can scroll down to the bottom and see the group pic from our latest Chinese New Year's event; would you like to know where I am sitting (hint - it's kinda close to the Chinese gentleman in the middle); any clue as to what that might suggest?
that aside, my previous teacher for ~5 years was GM Chan Tai Shan; do a little search on the forum for his eponymous thread; you may get a better idea of what my level of exposure to "traditional" training was...
I have also had the honor of briefly learning for from several other Chinese sifu, including Chan Wei Gwan and B P Chan for ~a year each;
again, i write this not to impress, rather simply to establish a context out of which I come
of course, I am guessing you will say that none of that matters, that I still clearly have no clue about internal, etc.; etc.;


I think that you have a very narrow bandwidth of understanding in terms of what constitutes "traditional" kung fu; but that's ok, when I was you "age" in the arts, I had a similar perspective - one day you may loose the whole "I am the one who understands, no one else does, because they don't write to me in a way that validates my own projections about what constitutes traditional practice"; try to be a little more open minded - there are many people out there who have a very deep understanding of internal and all that, but some times they don't fit the mold of what someone else might think they ought to be like or how they talk / write...some have actually developed somewhat heretical perspectives, based on having spent a great deal of time infused in these traditions: this is actually a well-described phenomenon (if you know where to look), so don't be so quick to judge...

anyway, this will be my final post on this thread in regards to this, only because all this came up while this thread had drifted way off topic, but now it appears to have gotten nicely back on track, so I don't want to drag it off again; apologies for the brief interlude...

I have touched a nerve I see, truth does that generally.

Inspite of your new found civility and with all your "credentials" you still don't know what I mean by tendon linking exercises, nor the tendon loosening ones.

Furthermore, based on your behavior towards me in your OTHER posts, you are still a FORUM LOW LIFE, SHAME ON YOU!

HardWork8

PS.Apologies for the brief interlude as well and I will leave you in the care of "Unkokusai's" intellect to continue discussing the subject matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

as regards the cross-face issue - though not having wrestled myself, a good friend in college did and we compared notes about our respective "styles" on several occasions - the take home message I remember was that, for a sport that ostensibly disavowed the use of striking, a lot of what he showed me had a healthy dose of "incidental" elbow and forearm strikes mixed in with the other stuff

Funny how that works out isn't it? :D

[SoCo KungFu]

Why don't you ask some of the guys you roll with?
Well...I was kinda hoping to sneak it out on em and be like ;) and they'd be all :eek: and I'd like :cool:
But...
I will, hopefully I can get in tonight. I might not make it again til next week though as I was just given word that I have to teach a class on Security Procedures tomorrow, which is really funny considering I only have been in this unit a short time now, and they have no sort of training program in place. I haven't carried a gun in a security function in about 3 years......So I've got to get into a refresher for myself today and plan out the curriculum tonight.....

Understanding the cross face is key to the next thing I wanted to suggest to you.

Sweet

although I've never been called a forum low-life - it makes me feel...so dirty...feelings of self-loathing surround me; oh the humanity....

Sling a few poop jokes...embrace the dirty...

[Old Noob]

From the way it was described, I'm trying to picture the cross-face in my mind. If its the way I'm thinking it is, it would seem like that would be a not so bad setup for a kimura if you took the shot and instead used it to sorta jar them and while pulling guard, reach through and set the key lock. I guess they could just pull tight and clasp their hands behind your back and jam the key lock, but then you can still sweep them and take topside and if you still have the grip, pull kimura then....

I know its not actually defending against the take-down...

what do you think?

Disclaimer: Outside of wrestling, I don't have much MMA-type experience (no BJJ or judo). In collegiate wrestling, you never wanted your back on the mat and all the defenses were geared towards 1. being taken down in the first place and 2. barring that, going to your stomach so you could escape or switch. The sprawl and cross-face had to be done together and were pretty much the best response to the double-leg takedown. If your reaction time is pretty good, the shooter almost never got his arms wrapped completely around you. Usually, they would be on your upper hamstrings. So the defender would throw his legs back to put weight on the shoother and protect against going over on their back. The cross-face was used to break their grip on your legs and give you sideways momentum to spin to their backs and reverse their takedown attemp. Assuming they shot with their head to your right side, you'd use your right hand to do the cross face. Basically, as you are throwing your legs back and putting weight on them, you rip your fist and whole forearm across the bridge of their nose, pushing the whole time so that their head is force uncomfortably to your right, their left. You would continue with your cross-face motion until you right hand was grabbing the shooter behind his left deltoid with his head essentially smooshed between your right bicep and his left shoulder. The defender could then spin clockwise to achieve the takedown or simply push the shooter away and remain standing. I hope that's clear as mud. I'm not sure if either of thos positions puts you in a good place to do the kimura.

[Mr Punch]

this is a poor example of trolling 101 - he cites my lack of knowledge of "internal" credentials; I provide him with specific information to the contrary; so now he tries to make me look like I am scrambling or something, stating that he's touched a nerve;
this is why i think all troll applicants to KFMF need to be screened much more rigorously
oh, and, of course, I still have no idea what he's talking about :rolleyes:Well put, Chris. In addition to your previous post, which was nicely put. And your posts before that, which were nicely put.

Well, I vote this forum lowlife for the troll-fighting medal in this thread.

And thanks to Unko and the other serious responders.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The problem with that idea is that anyone who has any kind of serious experience with takedowns is NOT going to end up with his face planted in the mat as a result of a sprawl. That's the kind of thing that is only going to happen with someone who does the 'eyes closed, arms outstretched, dive blindly' thing that passes for a leg shot in typical 'grappling' training in the dojo/dojang/kwoon outside actual grappling training.

Its possible that someone will end up in a face down position, but that will most likely be the result of a very low shot (like a low outside single) or through the fight to finish or counter that takes place after a shot has been at least partially stopped. Anyone who goes from standing to face in the mat is a fish, and I don't think you want to train for that level of incompetence from your opponent.

Unko, you make a lot of good points, but man....you don't ever seem to take into consideration chance, accident, loss of balance, etc.

I've never seen anyone 100% correct 100% of the time. Remember when Couture slipped and got rocked? He was one of the best.

**** happens. There's no such thing as perfection in any art, ever.

[unkokusai]

....you don't ever seem to take into consideration chance, accident, loss of balance, etc.




Well sure, but are you gonna base your training on such unpredictable variables? It seems to me that you want to base your trainng on most likely reactions/responses/results against at least reasonably trained opponents.

[BM2]

or in the words of the Immortal Bard:

"In cases of defence 'tis best to weigh
The enemy more mighty than he seems:
So the proportions of defence are fill'd;
Which of a weak or niggardly projection
Doth, like a miser, spoil his coat with scanting
A little cloth."

- Henry V, Act II, Scene IV

You will never see anyone quoting like that on Bullshido:D
**** **** **** **** ****!!!!!!!!!!... just had to get that out. Just go to a bjj school and check them out:rolleyes: You just might like it:eek:
ANYWAY,
If the Gracie family had been rolling a couple of hundred years ago in China, we all would be doing a Gracie Gar form.:cool: The Shao LIn monks would want some of that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

or in the words of the Immortal Bard:

"In cases of defence 'tis best to weigh
The enemy more mighty than he seems:
So the proportions of defence are fill'd;
Which of a weak or niggardly projection
Doth, like a miser, spoil his coat with scanting
A little cloth."

- Henry V, Act II, Scene IV

Correctumondo !

You will never see anyone quoting like that on Bullshido
**** **** **** **** ****!!!!!!!!!!... just had to get that out. Just go to a bjj school and check them out You just might like it
ANYWAY,
If the Gracie family had been rolling a couple of hundred years ago in China, we all would be doing a Gracie Gar form. The Shao LIn monks would want some of that.

Correctomundo squared !

[David Jamieson]

Gracie family started with trad jj as far as the story goes and turned it into what it is today.

just a decent bjj club with an instructor who is articulate and able to show and convey the lessons is enough. It is definitely a useful skillset for any kungfu guy, or karate guy or whatever to learn tat will improve him/her as an ma-ist and bring their game to the table fresh and spicy!

just get past the gay stuff. lol

[Vankuen]

BJJ evolved from Japanes Judo...which previously evolved from Japanese Jujutsu...or so I thought.

[Henry123]

I believe essentially it was/is Kosen judo.
Kosen Judo tended to focus mainly on newaza. It ws a pre WW2 form of judo.

[hafoc]

A variation of this technique seems to work fairly reliably against the two-legged front tackle.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sumigaeshi.htm

Saw a video of a Russian fighter (can't remember his name unfortunately) use it in the octagon once.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A variation of this technique seems to work fairly reliably against the two-legged front tackle.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sumigaeshi.htm

Saw a video of a Russian fighter (can't remember his name unfortunately) use it in the octagon once.

If the tackle is high.

[hafoc]

If the tackle is high.


Generally speaking, I'd say that's true. I've used it against one and two leg tackles against MMA guys, but I'd say that as far as I can remember, they kept their butts up when they came in, which I think is what you mean when you say "high". Haven't tried it in sparring against the tackle when the guy keeps his butt low as he shoots. But I think there's a way to modify the technique to deal with that situation too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The very nature of sumi geshi, much like tomoe nage, is you must get UNDER your opponents center of gravity, well under it, and that is very hard to do on a low shoot/takedown where his center is basically "on the ground".

[hafoc]

The very nature of sumi geshi, much like tomoe nage, is you must get UNDER your opponents center of gravity, well under it, and that is very hard to do on a low shoot/takedown where his center is basically "on the ground".

Granted. But there is also this, which is similar but involves a roll over the shoulder or to the side and does not require you to be so much under the opponent, which is what I tend to do anyway. http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/hikikomigaeshi.htm

We'll just have to try it out and see what happens, won't we? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Granted. But there is also this, which is similar but involves a roll over the shoulder or to the side and does not require you to be so much under the opponent, which is what I tend to do anyway. http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/hikikomigaeshi.htm

We'll just have to try it out and see what happens, won't we? :)

Hikikomi Gaeshi is one of the better ones, if they opponent goes in real deep and you can angle out, you can even grab the leg instead of the belt, seen it once in a wrestling match.

[Vankuen]

I've seen it work by grabbing at the waistline of whatever the person is wearing, shorts, pants, whatever.

I've been noticing also that many of the judo components are very similiar to my high school wrestling moves...

[hafoc]

I've seen it work by grabbing at the waistline of whatever the person is wearing, shorts, pants, whatever.

I've been noticing also that many of the judo components are very similiar to my high school wrestling moves...

Yes! Judo and wrestling have a lot in common.

[CoolHead]

Try a piledriver. There is usually a bunch of open fingers at the beginning of a tackle too. Here is the thing- Most grapplers don't expect a striker to go to town on their open gates: they must connect their torso to yours to begin. The grappler has decided to use his art on you- decide to use yours on him first. Grab an old book on Judo and give it a quick study, there is one in most public libraries.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Try a piledriver. There is usually a bunch of open fingers at the beginning of a tackle too. Here is the thing- Most grapplers don't expect a striker to go to town on their open gates: they must connect their torso to yours to begin. The grappler has decided to use his art on you- decide to use yours on him first. Grab an old book on Judo and give it a quick study, there is one in most public libraries.

This is true and if you can find a good hard cover and heavy book of judo, even better because at least with that you can smack him in the face with it.

[HardWork8]

Try a piledriver. There is usually a bunch of open fingers at the beginning of a tackle too. Here is the thing- Most grapplers don't expect a striker to go to town on their open gates: they must connect their torso to yours to begin. The grappler has decided to use his art on you- decide to use yours on him first. Grab an old book on Judo and give it a quick study, there is one in most public libraries.

Interesting. I find that a lot of strikers who lose to grapplers do so not because they are bad at grappling,but because they are bad at Striking and in their own arts, holistically speaking, that is.

HW8

PS. Don't worry about Sanjuro's comments regarding the Judo book. Some people here do not respect newcomers and besides, he wouldn't be able to read a book if his life depended on it, so if he is not hitting someone with a book then he probably is chewing on it.;)

[unkokusai]

Interesting. I find that a lot of strikers who lose to grapplers do so not because they are bad at grappling,but because they are bad at Striking and in their own arts, holistically speaking, that is.



That is not the case. In cases of grapplers vs strikers the strikers almost always land at least several strikes and the grapplers almost always execute several of their go-to techniques. The strikers tend to lose when they find themselves in grappling range without grappling skills. Certainly, the same can happen to grapplers in striking range but, contrary to what some would have you believe, landing a punch does not gaurantee a knock out. Niether does finishing a takedown gaurantee an immediate end to a conflict. The difference is that grapplers understand the latter and too many strikers don't want to acknowledge the former. Grapplers can move from striking to grappling range more easily than strikers can move from grappling to striking range.

[HardWork8]

That is not the case. In cases of grapplers vs strikers the strikers almost always land at least several strikes
They FAIL to strike with telling Blows. This is sometimes due to the grapplers' skills, but a lot of times it is due to the strikers' lack of striking abilities. Meaning I am not trying to take anything away from the grapplers.

Any valid system of MA should address groundfighting and many do, including some kung fu styles. However, as far as kung fu styles are concerned the fight should not go there. If it does then no one can afford to be a "fish out of water" either, hence the ground training in some styles of Kung Fu..

but, contrary to what some would have you believe, landing a punch does not gaurantee a knock out.
I am aware of that fact but what I was referring to were telling blows and not merely landing a punch and hoping for the best which seems to be the case in many NHB contests (and many street fights too).

Niether does finishing a takedown gaurantee an immediate end to a conflict. The difference is that grapplers understand the latter and too many strikers don't want to acknowledge the former.
Luckily for me I am not one those strikers.

Grapplers can move from striking to grappling range more easily than strikers can move from grappling to striking range.
Agreed! and of course it is easier for the human body to move forward rather than backwards.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree, and wonder why you believe that is the case; my thinking is that successful grappling more effectively disrupts a striker's structure than successful striking disrupts a grappler's; or that, in a similar vein, the striker is trying to do two things: hit and remain standing; the grappler on the other hand is concerned with getting a submission, but doesn't care if it goes to the ground; not saying this is definitively the case, just throwing out some ideas

Most grapplers can't strike their way our of a paper bag COMPARED to a trained striker, the difference is that they don't strike to KO, they strike to submit ( a different ball game) or to get the sub.
They strike "well enough" for their end goals.

Anyone that has done the "game" with anyone with decent grappling skills knows the very small "window of opportunity" you get to take out a grappler with a strike while standing.
The only way to expand that window is to train strikes VS graplers not VS other strikers and the vast majority of striker do not do that.
Whereas its pretty easy for most grappplers to deal with the "typical" striker that doesn't know how to strike a grappler.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF, and this is a crucial IF, one of the partcipants ina fight wants to take it to the ground there is a better than average chance that it will go there, eventually.
Experience has taught us this ( at least it has to those that have sought it out and not stayed in the comfort of their own dilusions).
Look how hard it is to KO someone in a striking environment ( if it was easy everyone would be a KO artists) and that is when we are striking in an ideal situation ( one we train for on a regular basis).
Now, take out the "ideal" opponent ( another strike since most train VS them) and add a grappler, someone that stands different, moves different, has different footwork and timing, has a different approach, throws different technqiues and set-ups at you, presentes you with different targets.
See what I mean?
Unless you drill, constantly, striking someone that is facing you with the tools and attributes of a grappler, your chances of success are minimal.
Its common sense.

[CoolHead]

Sanjuro put it well- You have to approach the subject with application, but again there is an underlying disadvantage you are accepting that must be considered-
Grappling is an ultimate solution for 1 on 1 but against multiple attackers? How often is self defense 1 on 1? You hear alot of things about grappling arts being the ultimate martial art, but from Greek Wrestling down to Olympic Judo and Gracie bouts it is one on one, you never see a third party stepping in and stomping the prone combatant to prove a point. It's foundation is competition basically, kung fu's foundation is mortal combat; you don't get jumped and discuss the rules like "no balls, no eyes, no friends helping.." You could challenge a boxer and say you're art is superior then say the match involves no punching.
You also don't see grapplers worried about killing their opponents, they approach matches eagerly-(Though God knows grapplers can easily kill.) By the same token there are many kung fu styles that are barely legal with the traditional moves created in pre-forensic times- Outside of a self defense situation how many of us have the resolve to rip someone's body parts off like flower petals?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you can't beat 1, the chances of beating more than 1 are ZERO.

[unkokusai]

Outside of a self defense situation how many of us have the resolve to rip someone's body parts off like flower petals?

.................................................. . :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

.................................................. . :rolleyes:

I must admit, ripping peoples limbs off like the petals of a flower is something I tend to do more often than I admit.
It's more fun than a barrel of Ninjas !

[sanjuro_ronin]

so the way to counteract this, as you say, is to train context specific as much as you possibly can, against someone that is going to give you a sufficiently high degree of interference - meaning that, if you are a beginner stiker, you not only have to adapt to a new situation, you have to deal with a variable that is trying to disrupt you as well - meaning that as a beginner, you want to weithe train against a not very good grappler, or a good one who modified what they are doing to at least give you a chance to get in some tries and have some sort of limited success - the trick here is, how long do you keep it this way, and when do you know to turn up the volume so to speak, and also how? do you, as the grappler, come in faster? stronger? add feints? use different techniques? in other words, how do you structure the prctice in order to get the best results, not only within a given practice session, but sequentially over multiple sessions (retention) and finally is there transfer if the stikre then faces a different grappler (transfer)?

on the other hand, if you are an "advanced" striker, you can focus most of your attention to adapting your delivery system to the new situation
and pay less attention to your own intrinsic mechanics, right? well, it depends: if you are a pro-boxer, it might actually b harder, because you have become so specialized at hitting a certain way, that if you take someone out of that specificity, they might actually be worse than someone with no experience - again, it depends on the individual (some people are just intrinsically are better at transferring skills) and how far outside of their box they are relative to how specific they are trained

which is why the whole "deadly arsenal of kung fu" argument doesn't work: unless you train your "eagle tears out the noodle" on a skilled grappler who is trying to not let you get near their vital parts (and I think I'm safe in saying that your average grappler has a fair idea of what it's like to get hit in the face, throat, etc. purely in context of "accidents" that happen in training and competition); the difference between punching someone in the head and poking them in the eye / clawing their throat is negligible, is that in the latter case you have much smaller target areas that the brain is reflexively designed to protect more so than pretty much any other parts of the body (same with the groin - people thin it's so easy just to kick someone there - sure, if the guy is stupid and stands still with his legs spread...); so if you want to be able to use those deadly techniques, you better have some opportunity to practice them against a live, fully-resisting opponent, or you can't really rely on those as an ace-in-the-hole

Correct, specificity is the rule.

Beginners need to focus on the basic to get their striking to its highest levels possible - impact force.
Then they need to adapt that not only in a VS striker context, but a VS grappler and VS MMA context too.
Reason is not only target accessibility but also the issue of timing.
Timing is crucial in the striking game and when one is used to "MT timing" or "WC timing" its a different ball game when exposed to "Grappler timing", know what I mean ?

Now, there are some ways around this for the "advanced" practioner, but on a whole the simplest and best way is to train it and drill it consistently VS what you wanna use it against.

[SoCo KungFu]

I surprised this thread is still going hahaha!

I been out of it for a few weeks. I had an issue, my neighbor was gunned down and I tried to help him. Got blood all over me, I had a laceration on my hand from a broken glass washing dishes the day before. Didn't know the guy or what he mighta had...so had to take off of contact training for a bit til the docs cleared me. All the blood tests (mine and his) are back negative though so now trying to get back into the groove.

It just sucks because I was just finding my swing when I had to drop off...actually starting to pull submissions...I hate when that happens.

Well guess I still got my health :D

Gonna get back into it and work some more defenses, I wanna try the crossface stuff here soon. That and I need to work my sweeps.

[Vankuen]

Correct, specificity is the rule.

Beginners need to focus on the basic to get their striking to its highest levels possible - impact force.
Then they need to adapt that not only in a VS striker context, but a VS grappler and VS MMA context too.
Reason is not only target accessibility but also the issue of timing.
Timing is crucial in the striking game and when one is used to "MT timing" or "WC timing" its a different ball game when exposed to "Grappler timing", know what I mean ?

Now, there are some ways around this for the "advanced" practioner, but on a whole the simplest and best way is to train it and drill it consistently VS what you wanna use it against.

Sorry I'm coming in kinda late here. Perhaps I look at things more simplistically, but the way I see it, you simply want to train with as many different people (in as many different skill sets) as possible.

Given that almost all of my friends are martial artists, and that I train in a couple different environments, it's pretty easy to train "this vs that" and in my opinion that is one of the best ways to go about doing things.

When I used to teach in Florida, we worked on a number of things, some things from wing chun, some from muay thai, some from traditional gung fu, some from BJJ, etc. Depends on what we wanted to do that day. One drill we used to do a lot was the grapper vs grappler, striker vs stiker or course (anything goes) -- but then we'd vary things up and go with striker vs the grappler, hands vs striker, or hands vs feet, or anything goes vs boxer, whatever the case may be. It was meant to help build skills in using whatever the skillset was against another skillset. The good thing was that we had people from a number of striking arts and grappling arts so it worked out.

[wiz cool c]

You ever seen ufc # 4 Royce Grracie vs Keith hackny. Hackny had a good defence at the begining of the match sprawl and punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT0O3-hKuv8