Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

[taijiman7777]

Our latest video discussing basic concepts of tai chi strategy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3y8tLH0M_M
or
http://www.cloudmountainmartialarts.com/page122/page392/page392.php

Feedback would be appreciated.

[extrajoseph]

Since you asked for a feedback, I am afraid that the chance of you trapping a striaght punch with the Taiji beginning move like in 8.13 is very low in a real situation and no one is so stupid as to grab your arm like in 8.53.

No disrespect is intended, it is always good to see someone promote Taijiquan as a fighting art.

[taijiman7777]

You are right, of course. The technique is unlikely to work. In fact, I would go further than that and say that techniques don't work, period. The demonstration is one more of principle than technique.

However, almost any technique can be made to appear to work if rooting and sticking are adequate for the situation.

As for the grab, you are right that it would be foolish for someone to grab like that, unless they are a student helping a teacher to make a point.
On the other hand, a lot of foolish things happen in the heat of combat, especially after the 2nd or 3rd beat of an exchange. I do not expect to avoid doing such foolish things myself, I only hope to be less foolish than the other person.

In the future, I will post some more realistic exchanges that will hopefully demonstrate what these principles look like in a more realistic context.

Thanks.

[cjurakpt]

Since you asked for a feedback, I am afraid that the chance of you trapping a striaght punch with the Taiji beginning move like in 8.13 is very low in a real situation and no one is so stupid as to grab your arm like in 8.53.

No disrespect is intended, it is always good to see someone promote Taijiquan as a fighting art.

to take it a step further, I am curious why people are seemingly so obsessed with "finding" a fighting application in that opening move: I've seen some downright ridiculous things myself that if someone actually tried in a "real" fight would get you killed, and never one that actually makes much sense overall; furthermore, what they all seem share in common is that in order to even work in a theoretical context, they require some if not significant alteration between how it's done in "application" and in the form (e.g. - moving one foot forward / backward, moving off to the side / turing the body); honestly, how much can that opening move drift before it's no longer the same move anyway? I think its a case of "the Lady doth protest too much"...

I say to get over it - it's a preparatory move, it doesn't necessarily have to "mean" anything other than what it is, which is a way to initiate via the respiratory diaphragm's function the ground reaction force through the tensegrity-based connective tissue matrix, in order to establish and differentiate root (gan) in the legs and lightness (hing) in the torso, and then amplify this out through the distal extremities; if you want to talk from a Taoist perspective, it's basically a way to "activate" the micro/macrocosmic orbits and meridian system (starting with the Lung) prior to doing the form, and which arguably got tacked on to the beginning of the form by YLC (notice, the Chen form doesn't start the same way at all...)

[cjurakpt]

You are right, of course. The technique is unlikely to work. In fact, I would go further than that and say that techniques don't work, period. The demonstration is one more of principle than technique.
no, techniques can work - but they need to be practiced in a live manner against a non-compliant opponent to determine if that is the case; otherwise "principle" becomes very context-dependent...

However, almost any technique can be made to appear to work if rooting and sticking are adequate for the situation.
this requires both participants to "agree" to establish and maintain bridging; if one participant won't do that, then most if not all of taiji "theory" goes out the window;

As for the grab, you are right that it would be foolish for someone to grab like that, unless they are a student helping a teacher to make a point.
or a teacher helping a student feel that he is studying something "magical"...

On the other hand, a lot of foolish things happen in the heat of combat, especially after the 2nd or 3rd beat of an exchange. I do not expect to avoid doing such foolish things myself, I only hope to be less foolish than the other person.
which is why pressue testing techniques in as alive a manner as possible as much as possible is an important way to "train out" innappropriate responses

In the future, I will post some more realistic exchanges that will hopefully demonstrate what these principles look like in a more realistic context.
.

I'd be all for that - maybe you could find a conditioned collegiate level wrestler to be your partner and ask them to try to work moves on full on while you demo how all the above stuff would work against him (I suggest a wrestler because they will establish and maintain a bridge for you; if it was a boxer, none of that sticking stuff would apply at all because there would be no establishment / maintenance of a bridge)

[taijiman7777]

Good point.

After receiving several requests for demonstrations of martial applications of different taiji movements, my shirfu said, "You show me any movement, even if I don't know that style, I will show you application."

So, being a bit of a smarty, a student who will not be named, showed the Vienna waltz. Shirfu, without any hesitation, demonstrated application after application of the waltz, both "literal" applications, and those with slight modifications and follow ups. There were counter strikes, throw, qinna, dian xue, kicks, and sweeps. All effortless and natural. After 15 minutes of non-stop applications, we were all thinking that the Vienna Waltz must be a secret European style of Kung Fu.

Every movement in taiji has applications. Every part of every movement has applications. A good fighter will be able to find applications in the smallest movement. But this is not because of the choreography so much as it is because of the way the choreography is performed.

It is not what we do. It is about how we are.

Seek emptiness. Cut the line between before and after.
Become one with the Universe. There is no enemy.

Technique is incidental.
The form is not tai chi.
The form is the context within which we practice being tai chi.

[taijiman7777]

Some of my students are competitive wrestlers.
I will talk to them this week about doing some videos.

[cjurakpt]

Some of my students are competitive wrestlers.
I will talk to them this week about doing some videos.

a great start; could you also find someone who is not your student and therefore has no psychological inhibitions about taking you down without remorse?

[cjurakpt]

Good point.
After receiving several requests for demonstrations of martial applications of different taiji movements, my shirfu said, "You show me any movement, even if I don't know that style, I will show you application."
So, being a bit of a smarty, a student who will not be named, showed the Vienna waltz. Shirfu, without any hesitation, demonstrated application after application of the waltz, both "literal" applications, and those with slight modifications and follow ups. There were counter strikes, throw, qinna, dian xue, kicks, and sweeps. All effortless and natural. After 15 minutes of non-stop applications, we were all thinking that the Vienna Waltz must be a secret European style of Kung Fu.
of course one can find something in anything - that's because the range of human movement occurs within the context of our inherent morphology - as such, seemingly disparate types of movement systems will contain topological similarities - (for example, Chan Tai Shan once demonstrated about 5 applications of this (http://www.pressurepositive.com/store/The-Original-Backnobber-II-OSCARItem_10+B2.aspx) esoteric weapon on someone before we told him what it really was...)

Every movement in taiji has applications. Every part of every movement has applications. A good fighter will be able to find applications in the smallest movement. .
look, you can say that anytime you are moving your finger up and forwards you are doing an eye poke - it's a case of "seek and ye shall find" - the point is not finding apps, it's about drilling them in a way that tests their worth in a realistic context

But this is not because of the choreography so much as it is because of the way the choreography is performed
example of what you mean by this?

It is not what we do. It is about how we are.
Seek emptiness. Cut the line between before and after.
Become one with the Universe. There is no enemy.
Technique is incidental.
The form is not tai chi.
The form is the context within which we practice being tai chi.
citing Taoist philosophical theory when discussing the relative validity of tai ji in a martial context is confusing the absolute with the relative - you don't need to practice taiji to encompass any of the above - you can "be taiji" doing panything - in fat, you ARE taiji doing anything whether you like it or not; similarly, you can practice taiji your entire life and not embody any of that; there is no secret "unification formula"; to wax classical, "no dust, no mirror" - things are such as they are and don't need to be self-referenced (and in fact "seeking" emptiness won't get you No-where)

[taijiman7777]

Are you seeking argument for its own sake?

[cjurakpt]

Are you seeking argument for its own sake?

no, I'm disagreeing with much of what you write; I though that you wanted feedback?

[taijiman7777]

Good. I was worried that you might be trying to accuse me of being a fraud who was out to deliberately deceive you and my students.
I am glad that is not the case.

I've read your comments a few times now, and I think we actually agree more than we disagree. The format of a forum such as this one can lead to unfortunate misunderstandings.


I have actually spent some time practising applications with a back massager like the one you mentioned, along with the martial artist who manufactured them. It was fun and informative. I've also practised with a Klingon Batleth (sic?), a somewhat fictional weapon which I found more practical than some ancient Chinese weapons.

My points, if you are still interested, are as follows: that method trumps technique, that root is superior to strategy, and that the video was a demonstration of principles.

And while I do have student and training partners who are competitive wrestlers and boxers, I am not prepared to video myself in a real fight for reasons which would hope are obvious to everyone. I don't think that is really what you are asking for, anyway.


Practising technique against a non-compliant opponent is one way in which some technique-based schools train the evolution of a method. They keep practising the technique until they find a way to make it work fairly often against one particular training partner. Then they try to do the same thing with partners of different sizes, strengths and skill sets. J. Kano was famous for being able to make any technique work against almost anyone. The fact that most people can't get a technique to work in a realistic situation seems to me to prove that there is more than technique at play here.

I see a limitation in the reliance of technique, especially when they are only practised against a compliant opponent. That said, there are many schools that insist on practising techniques only with a compliant opponent because if the the opponent is resisting the technique, it is the wrong technique.

The method of application includes understanding when the technique is inappropriate, and should be replaced with another. Whether practising close, long or mid range techniques, the person who wins is usually the last person to make an appropriate change.

A method based approach is one which does not rely primarily on specific techniques but on the universal principles that make all techniques work. This is the taiji strategy. It breaks it all down to an understanding of yin and yang. When one understands the method, the techniques are incidental. That is why, when I demonstrate techniques, I don't attach my self to a particular technique, or even a literal interpretation of the movement. The application results not from a predetermined technique that will perfectly mimic the form. Instead, the application evolves from the conditions that exist between the posture the person in the posture, and the way in which the "attacker" interprets his or her relationship with my posture.
The method then is to simply "stick and follow in a circle," neither resisting nor giving way.

Tuishou and tai chi strategy in general is about not resisting and not being resisted. It is about following, joining, sticking and adhering in a way which complies with the part of the opponent's mind that wants to get knocked over.

Tuishou practise gives a full range of options, from a totally compliant partner who agrees to be followed to a totally non-compliant partner who breaks contact or wrestles and tries to strike, kick, sweep, and throw. Tai Chi theory is built for that. It does not, as you say, "go out the window" in the face of real combat.



Your comment about a "teacher helping a student feel that he is studying something "magical" could be applied to any martial art, including MMA. I agree that such dynamics are not helpful to the student, the teacher or the art. But it is something my teachers and I have cautioned against for years. If anyone applied such a judgement to me I would be quite upset.



As for wrestlers or boxers maintaining or not maintaining the bridge, I see either of those tendencies as a limitation created for the sake of the sport. I don't advocate maintaining or avoiding the bridge, but rather flowing effortlessly from one state to another without resistance. Resistance against a more powerful opponent is futile, and against a superior opponent is impossible.



Regarding your comment about me citing Daoist philosophy. I wasn't meaning to do so at the time. I was referring to taijiquan, not the concept on which it is based.

"It is not about what we do. It is about how we are.
Seek emptiness. Cut the line between before and after.
Become one with the Universe. There is no enemy.
Technique is incidental.
The form is not taijiquan.
The form is the context within which we practice being taijiquan."

This is not some airy philosophical concept. It is a practical and proven approach to martial combat. It was the most concise way I could think of to express principles that we work with in training every day. For those who have not had a tangible experience of these principles, I am afraid I don't have time to explain them here. But I know many martial artists who teach them.

When Ueshiba Morihei said "the true spirit of Budo is Love," he was not mere stating an axiom of an idealistic religion. He was expressing a spiritual and psychological principle which, when understood and practised, would make one a better fighter.

But I find it unfortunate that many of us cannot see the practical applications of philosophy. We either try to live the philosophy only in our heads, or we eschew philosophy as if it were just a pile of dead leaves with no value to the trees. (Dead leaves were once an substantial part of the deciduous forest biomass in North America, before the immigrant European earthworms ate the leaves and changed everything.)

This may be my last word on this thread. It is quite time consuming, and I do tend to digress.

I will keep reading though.

I do appreciate the feedback.

[brucereiter]

i like how he talked about being proactive.

good stuff