Attacking wing chun concept

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Guy!

I got this off another forum, I have the same opinion as the guy that posted this.

I personally prefer to force the attacker to attack then counter instead of playing the waiting game.

What are some concept/techniques/strategies that you guys have experiences with or suggest to apply wing chun aggressively?



"Attacking / Aggressive Wing Chun Techniques

One thing about Wing Chun that I never really liked, but comes from it's Buddhist origins, is that we seldom initiate attacks, we counter. This is a superior tactic most of the time, but I feel it is limiting at times.

My Sifu showed us techniques to use ageist a timid opponent, or one that won’t engage, but once out of the school I found those techniques really hard to use, because the opponents don’t block the way we need them to. For example, we might launch in and throw a punch. Let’s say a low punch to the gut, but it can be the straight punch or whatever. If the guy doesn’t block he gets hit and we closed the gap and can do our thing. If he does block downwards, then we have our bridge. We can the pak his arm into him and punch high or etc. I’ve seen similar tactics in other lineages.

However, this never works when fighting a trained artist, especially of the boxer, kick boxer, etc variety. It’ll work on stupid karate guys and etc, but even then it is questionable. Here is why: most of the opponents avoid that initial punch by simply backing up. Even if you get the bridge and finish trying to close the gap they are still backing away and you almost have to lunge to hit them anyway. And if you try this on a grappler you may find yourself on your back very quickly. They love for you to overextend a punch so they can drop levels and blast into you.

Chasing the guy with chain punches never works either if he has ½ a brain.

My Sifu's preference is to bait the guy better inviting him to make that attack on you so you can counter it, but I have yet to master that one. Since I am more aggressive when I fight when I try to bait they know something is up. I’m working on it, but am not satisfied with that as my only alternative. (However, I am practicing it more all the time, as it is seeming to be the only real way to use the art - you have to give them something you are trained to go off of).

I want to attack and force the guy to make a mistake. Keeping them on the defensive is always my preference. I mean maybe he is a much better attacker than you are a counter-er. Once you are on the defensive from a crazy good striker your Wing Chun may break down and you get knocked the hell out. You see it all the time in MMA and kickboxing, etc. As soon as one guy makes a mistake the other unloads and 90% of the time catches the defender with something and wins. I always want to be the aggressor.

So some of the best attackers are boxer and kick boxers. I mean here are strikers that strike aggressively – they are masters of getting their punches and kicks in on you. And it might behoove some to learn these strikes so you have an aggressive side and countering side, but I don’t like that approach.

What I want to know from some of the fighters is how they, or if they, use the art aggressively and how they go about doing it. Has charging in with chain punches worked for you? How about if the guy is totally avoiding you in an open space? Bridging the gap on trained range fighters can be one of the harder things to learn to do. Got any suggestions? I have about 3-4 things I personally do, but maybe someone can put out some better suggestions or ideas on this matter. (Personally, I’ll jump in with the wing chun jam, or throw a ton of attacks variety levels, angles, and etc until they are overwhelmed or try to counter and give me the bridge I need).



Yes, I understand our mentality, Fingers. And once inside it is a different story. But instead of not sparring, I prefer to learn some better ways of closing the gap on a fighter that wants nothings to do with our "short arm bridge system" as you call it. Any trained and smart fighter will try to take us to the ground or pick us off from range and not let us close the gap. That is how I would fight a Wing Chun guy who is better than me. (I actually spend a decent amount of time thinking about how to fight Wing Chun guys.) Once you screw up and let a good Wing Chun fighter inside then it is over.

So do you have any suggestions for fighting a guy who will not engage in the manner that you are trained to counter? And even more specifically the guy who jabs and gets away, because kicks are easier to close the gap on. You can try to pick up on the guy's timing and hit him as he comes in, but really good guys don't really give you that even. It seems like you have to either be real good at baiting, or form an offensive of your own. And thus my questions about the offensive side of the art for this situation.

A

P.S. As a side note I am starting to get tired of the "street mentality" of Wing Chun. It is used as an excuse. I'm starting to develop the opinion we should train to fight other trained fighters. (You can even keep the kill and maim mentality, don't have to go into sport fighting mentality). Just like with a knife, we should train to fight good knife fighters. That way when an untrained thug tries to come at you with a knife it is nothing to you. And after fighting a Thai fighter with quick jabs, powerful kicks, and tight hooks, and wrestlers with powerful takedowns, when some dumb **** tries to jump you in the street and is throwing big looping punches or trying to tackle you it is nothing. Just a thought. We also rely on punching too much. What if the guy is like Cabbage and can take some good punches, or is on drugs, etc. You better know how to finish him with a choke or controlling techs that work no matter what. No matter how pumped up someone is or how tough they can't function without blood to the brain (or their heart beating depending on how you think blood chokes work.) I think most Wing Chun guys are very arrogant, and it will get them killed or hurt very badly one day."

[reneritchie]

While WCK is certainly informed by the triumvirate of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism, I don't necessarily buy that that is why WCK doesn't aggressively initiate encounters, but for the sake of the thread, it probably doesn't matter.

The duality of seizing initiative vs. waiting for the opponent seems pretty historical, going back to Sun Zi and the 36 Strategies:

Sien Faat Jie Yan - Yan See Yee Gong (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=6)

[kung fu fighter]

While WCK is certainly informed by the triumvirate of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism, I don't necessarily buy that that is why WCK doesn't aggressively initiate encounters, but for the sake of the thread, it probably doesn't matter.

The duality of seizing initiative vs. waiting for the opponent seems pretty historical, going back to Sun Zi and the 36 Strategies:

Sien Faat Jie Yan - Yan See Yee Gong (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=6)

Thanks Rene!

I am familar with Sun Zi and the 36 Strategies, however I feel everything can be improved upon with time and experience.

I personally feel setting up the opponent by keeping him on the defensive is superior to waiting, although both have their place wing chun.

If you take a look at any professional fighter such as boxers, k1 fighters, MMA fighters. They all have offensive as well as defensive skills at the professional level. Perhaps wing chun didn't get a chance to develop to such a level because it wasn't tested against professional fighters. especially since most wing chun sifus are just at the amateur level.


Thanks
Navin

[reneritchie]

Hi Navin,

My sigung changed our Jong Sao from Kim Yeung Man with Tan Wu Sao to just standing naturally with no hands up.

He did this so as not even to telegraph martial knowledge, much less which system (WCK being identifiable).

If no one attacked with any conviction, there was no fight, which suited him fine.

If someone did attack, he countered, and they received what they created.

For stuff like MMA in a ring, I understand and agree with setups, but outside MMA, I think if someone else doesn't want to fight, and isn't doing something heinous (like blocking the exit to a burning building), why force a confrontation? (Especially considering what they may be hiding, weapon-wise, in their baggy clothes...)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Navin,

My sigung changed our Jong Sao from Kim Yeung Man with Tan Wu Sao to just standing naturally with no hands up.

He did this so as not even to telegraph martial knowledge, much less which system (WCK being identifiable).

If no one attacked with any conviction, there was no fight, which suited him fine.

If someone did attack, he countered, and they received what they created.

For stuff like MMA in a ring, I understand and agree with setups, but outside MMA, I think if someone else doesn't want to fight, and isn't doing something heinous (like blocking the exit to a burning building), why force a confrontation? (Especially considering what they may be hiding, weapon-wise, in their baggy clothes...)

What about situations where a group of thugs is assaulting a loved one, and you have to attack them to save that person?

[Hendrik]

There is a big misconception on WCK is passive.

Nope, IMHO, it is not. WCK is about Flow and Flow is flowing or dancing with the opponent's dance.

and how I can prove this is the truth? --- the kuen kuit --- come accept...goes...

one doesnt need to attack one just let the opponent to start dancing and then WCner dance with them with min resistance...


thus, there is no counter attack in the paradigm of FLOW.


how easy to do that? difficult, very difficult until one has lots of control or handling of oneself....

peace

[k gledhill]

real fighting reveals its own truth , follow it.....not anyone elses ;)

[Ali. R]

I was always taught to have the mentality of a butcher, but execute with the precision of a surgeon… When one fixes one self in what maybe a ready position, and is within striking range, I was taught to attack his readiness within two second of face off, before his fortitude begins to snowball down hill, giving him no time to adjust mentally…

Those who do not attack when the opportunities presents themselves: are either afraid or unsure of there own abilities or really don’t have a clue on how to attack… All of above in which I have said, through proper training and knowledge can be worked out and fixed…

Remember in the days of the sword the first strike can, and will kill you… Take every fight as if you’re fighting for your life, just as if one has a sword (mentally)… There are no special ways of attacking just do what you do best… If you don’t attack first, then one should always attack the attack…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

When your opponent is tense, his breathing becomes heavy and dry which shows his weakness far as his mind or train of thought, maybe he is unsure of himself or the knowledge that he is trying to apply is not within his muscle memory, maybe because one refuse to drill out that understanding with “mon-sao” or some kind of attacking drills before taking that big leap…

Whatever the case, when you are not calm for whatever reason you begin to breathe very heavy, and when one starts to breathe in air (heavily), right in the middle of that heavy breathing (on his in-take) is one of the many opportune times too attack your opponent… Don’t take my word for it, just try it for yourself…


Ali Rahim

[reneritchie]

Hi Navin,

Yup, that's what I meant by if they are otherwise doing anything heinous. Again, however, this is a level of engagement, not you otherwise running up an assaulting someone who is not an immanent threat.

Hi Ali,

That's in the Kuen Kuet as well. "Viciousness". Once you engage, you don't hold back and continue until the opponent is no longer there.

What I thought Navin was debating was the engagement and the distinction in opponent...

[Ali. R]

That's in the Kuen Kuet as well. "Viciousness". Once you engage, you don't hold back and continue until the opponent is no longer there.

What I thought Navin was debating was the engagement and the distinction in opponent... ...


I was just generalizing in my approach on that particular Kuen Kuet, and didn’t have any other post in mind but the opening post of this thread… But I can really see yours, and others points of views on this thread also…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[AndrewS]

KFF,

cut off the ring. I use escrima, but the idea is in the knives I'm told. Whatever. Cut off the ring- move into the place which makes the other person's motion awkward to find the angle to enter so they can't change. Forward pressure from a distance.

Man sao is a stiff jab.

Andrew

[Ali. R]

“Mon Sao” is an antenna or “asking hands”, in which receives energy on a platform of redirecting forward vector force through structure and sensitivity, based upon the amount of force received… When the “Mon Sao” turns into a jab the hands becomes tight and the forward energy cannot be received to the point of redirection…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Man sao is a stiff jab.

Good call, this is how i view the idea and action of Mun Sao. Anything you give the opponent in effect is an 'asking hand'.

The beauty is, if they do nothing you score damage.

The way i was taught was to not be the first action but to be the first touch. Sounds a little strange to some perhaps, but after years of VT i get my teachers point.

IMO its 'counter fighting' which i believe is harder to become proficent at than being plain agressive.

The counter point to that was latter in learning we were taught the next step which was to be the first touch but using an offencive action as a defence.

IE Jab is Launched at your head, give a nice heavy center punch at the same time....if your good, you can land your punch which will block his simulataneously.

Things like that.

So i think once you make VT yours and your not a slave to it....it becomes more offencive than defencive...

How long has the original poster being doing VT ?

DREW

[Liddel]

“Mon Sao” is an antenna or “asking hands”, in which receives energy on a platform of redirecting forward vector force through structure and sensitivity, based upon the amount of force received…

Thats one way, and situation to use it.


When the “Mon Sao” turns into a jab the hands becomes tight and the forward energy cannot be received to the point of redirection…
Ali Rahim.

Persaonally my 'Mun Sao'... the action from VT form, has attacking force apon contact. This is just like a jab and similar to Fut Sao.... its stiff for a very small moment though. which is what KF is IMO. Knowing when and where to use forces etc.

Also the shape of my arm (Mun Sao in this case) is not the only contributing aspect towards force, structure and redirection. The rest of my body is an integral part.

So if my hand, or even my entire arm is stiff (for arguments sake) i can still have good structure and redirect force with the right level of skill from the rest of my body.

So i disagree with your point here Ali.

DREW

[kung fu fighter]

KFF,

cut off the ring. I use escrima, but the idea is in the knives I'm told. Whatever. Cut off the ring- move into the place which makes the other person's motion awkward to find the angle to enter so they can't change. Forward pressure from a distance.

Man sao is a stiff jab.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

One of my offensive strategies is also to cut off the ring with forward pressure, enclosing the attacker.

What are some of the stepping drills and concepts which you use to apply "cutting off the ring"?

Do you cut off the ring like George Foreman did against mohammed Ali using stacking stepping into his centerline, or do you try to keep the attacker facing away from you while you face him with either side or frontal facing?

Thanks
Navin

[Sihing73]

Hello,

As to the Man Sau, I also view it as asking hands, more of an obstruction that the opponent has to get around in order to attack. A means of taking space and ascertaining your opponents energy as he\she attacks.

Having said that, I was also taught that every "block" is also a strike. For example while you should never meet force with force, should your, Taun Sau for example, meet the incoming strike and find there is no substance behind the strike, then your Taun can become a strike in and of itself. Same with Man Sau, should you place your arm as an obstruction and find there is no energy behind the opponents movement, or nothing to meet, then there is no reason that the Man can not become a strike or attack in and of its own.

FWIW, I am a very non-commital fighter, believing that my opponent will tell me the best way to beat them. Besides, this approach works really good in legal situations when all the "witnesses" can testify that the other guy struck first. :D

Oh, as to cutting off the ring this is great in a sports environment. However, consider Sun Tzu and the idea that an opponent will fight even harder if they have no alternative, no way to escape. Unless one is completely committed or sure of their ability to destroy and totally control the opponent, it is sometimes a good idea to leave a way out. Just thinking out loud...................

[Ali. R]

I other words, in the system that I am taught in, the “Mon Sao” works similar to the “Don Chi Sao”, as it pushes, jerks, receives and pulls as well as redirect forward incoming energies… The “Mon Sao” also jams and wedges forward intent…

It would be hard from the standpoint in which I was taught to make the “Mon Sao” a strike, without changing the shape of the hands… When the shape of the hands changes, that weapon is no longer classified as such…

Because the “Mon Sao” can and does host all kinds of defensive shape while moving in offensively, I’ve never seen it used with an offensive hand shape on entry, Until the offensive and defensive lines are under control with the asking hand first (Mon Sao)…

But it is true that one can turn a block into a strike but I wouldn’t recommend using it that way, far as the “Mon Sao”… The Mon Sao is the probe that helps dictates and foresees your automatic reaction dealing with incoming force just as, the “Don Chi Sao”…


Ali Rahim.

[reneritchie]

The way I learned, Man Sao wasn't/isn't a specific hand shape or bridge path, but any hand extended out. It follows the maxim "asking the way" in that, if we put our hand out and the opponent does nothing, our hand's true nature (a strike) is realize and the opponent gets hit.

If the opponent defends, then our bridge changes and asks again, until the opponent "answers" how they want to be hit.

[Sihing73]

I other words, in the system that I am taught in, the “Mon Sao” works similar to the “Don Chi Sao”, as it pushes, jerks, receives and pulls as well as redirect forward incoming energies… The “Mon Sao” also jams and wedges forward intent…

It would be hard from the standpoint in which I was taught to make the “Mon Sao” a strike, without changing the shape of the hands… When the shape of the hands changes, that weapon is no longer classified as such…

Because the “Mon Sao” can and does host all kinds of defensive shape while moving in offensively, I’ve never seen it used with an offensive hand shape on entry…

But it is true that one can turn a block into a strike but I wouldn’t recommend using it that way, far as the “Mon Sao”… The Mon Sao is the probe that helps dictates and foresees your automatic reaction dealing with incoming force just as, the “Don Chi Sao”…


Ali Rahim.

Hello Ali,

The concept of the Man can be changed and it can become a strike, most likely a Fak Sao or similar. My WC is always in transition thus a Taun can become a strike by turning to a Palm or Fist, but no, a Taun in and of itself is not a strike. By the same token neither is a Man, but it can, IMHO, transition into a strike. However this means stepping outside the box of what that particular "technique" represents and exploring the "concept" of how that "technique" deals with energy.

By not meeting force with force one is always able to change and flow based on the energy given by the opponent. Thus I would never say use technique A against technique B. Rather I would place an obstruction in the path and act according to the energy being received, perhaps Taun, perhaps Bong perhaps something else. Although, having said that, there are ways to shore up ones techniques using body structure. It all depends on how one wishes to interact. My family of WC is quite soft so I tend to try and fold around what I am given rather than crash against it.

Perhaps I no longer am doing pure WC as I tend to blend in the PT Kali and find it to be quite useful and applicable. As I have said many times, I CHEAT and what is important to me at the end is whether or not I walk away. ;)

[kung fu fighter]

Wing chun is not the only chinese art that don't traditionally use attacking strategy. Here is a link to a similar discussion about this delema in the other southern arts: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47597

[Ali. R]

How can one change the “Mon Sao” into a strike when the main function of the asking hand should be controlling the fighting line first, similar to the dominant hand of “Yut Fook Yee”, one hand traps two? The “Mon Sao” usually works first to set up your fighting lines on entry where you are able to make the terrain of you choice in which your army can cross-through while bridge walking, the strike is very much secondary in the case of the “Mon Sao”, as far as I was taught

One of the main purposes of the “Mon Sao” is to take over ones space with an one step entry, jamming, wedging and pinning all simultaneously in one motion using only defensive hands structures (when using the "Mon Sao"), striking is usually always done after the clean success of the “Mon Sao” entry … Could you explained how the “Mon Sao” could be used as a strike before manipulating your opponents structure or fighting lines…

After the lines are controlled an manned, the “Mon Sao” is no longer needed, so it can’t change into anything else but a strike, only after the pin or trap has been done when making an “Mon Sao” entry…


Ali Rahim.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi guys !

when I started this thread, My intention was about angular footwork and flanking positioning strategies to attack (dui ying/sup ying), not man sao. I feel too many wing chun practioners put way too much attention on bridge techniques by becoming a sitting duck just trying to block and trap everything that comes their way, and almost no attention to evasive footwork. In shaolin martial arts evasion and hitting is the highest form of defence.

What type of stepping do you guys have to safely contain an attacker while closing the distance to set him up by cutting angles. How do you apply the knife and pole footwork strategy in empty hand fighting?


Thanks
Navin

[monji112000]

Hi guys !

when I started this thread, My intention was about angular footwork and flanking positioning strategies to attack (dui ying/sup ying), not man sao. I feel too many wing chun practioners put way too much attention on bridge techniques by becoming a sitting duck just trying to block and trap everything that comes their way, and almost no attention to evasive footwork. In shaolin martial arts evasion and hitting is the highest form of defence.

What type of stepping do you guys have to safely contain an attacker while closing the distance to set him up by cutting angles. How do you apply the knife and pole footwork strategy in empty hand fighting?


Thanks
Navin
I agree with you 100%. In my opinion bridging is misunderstood. normally a bridge will last a second, and you may more may not have a chance to use it. When you do its not like the person will hold his hand out like in chi sao. The average person throws a punch better than that.

evasion can come in many forms, and for me footwork, timing, distance,and cover are key. That may include a bridge,but hey I look at a thai clinch as a bridge. I look at wrestling and dirty boxing clinch as bridges too. I'm not skilled in them, but I'v seen them and its a bridge. You can use all your ideas, and still be doing "WC". Granted its not textbook WC, but its applying the ideas on a new subject. After all isn't that what the whole purpose is for? To evolve?

[reneritchie]

Hi Ali,

There's no need to change anything, the punch is Man (Lo) Sao.

[Ali. R]

Sorry dude, that’s all good I just don’t like to move around a lot, I’ll rather just fight and get it over with… If he’s moving around I’ll let him do so, because he as to come closer sooner or later to hit me and that’s when the fight is on…

When my opponent gets close enough he might as well stick his arm in a factory fan, because if he’s close enough, he’ll never pull himself out the way(or it will be hard as h*ll to do so), when I stay with what comes and follow with what goes…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Hi Ali,

There's no need to change anything, the punch is Man (Lo) Sao.


Now I see what you guys are taking about, the “Mon Sao” is used similar to the “Garm Sao” (“lo sao”) striking off the “Mon Sao” or same hand, without double line manipulating (squared body control) or pins which is also good… I worry about the second hand so after the “Mon Sao” entry I’ll attack the second hand or the “Woo Sao” on the pin or trap… When controlling your opponents “Woo Sao” on entry it will be hard for your opponent to move his feet, it pretty much nails him to the floor...


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

What type of stepping do you guys have to safely contain an attacker while closing the distance to set him up by cutting angles.

Triangle footwork. Its Mook Jong ON !


How do you apply the knife and pole footwork strategy in empty hand fighting?


I dont. My footwork in each of the weapons is dependent on forces and distance which effects timing.

H2H deals with different forces and is at different lengths.
Getting touched with a hand is not to much of a concern in H2H fighting, its expected, where the slightest touch of a weapon could be game over.

So while i can see someone drawing on the theroies and physical bennifits of the weapons footwork like - dexterity, strenght etc.... for H2H use its not my cup of tea.

DREW

[Ali. R]

I agree with you 100%. In my opinion bridging is misunderstood. normally a bridge will last a second


Good bridge walking can last until your opponent hits the floor…


When you do its not like the person will hold his hand out like in chi sao. The average person throws a punch better than that.


No, they will not hold they arms out that way, because one is not playing chi sao in this instant of attack in which I’m talking about… And if one continues to crowed space when taking over the fighting lines, then the bridge will stay connected automatically making traps and pins with structure alone…

Therefore your opponent’s arms will become stiff or sometimes non-responsive after being hit multiple times just from shock alone, especially when you’re defensive and offensive structure is laying on top of your opponent’s defensive and offensive structure… Bridge walking helps literally take the stress from and out of the attack when understood…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

the knife foot work is different to the bare hand foot work.
bare hands use cutting angles and closer proximity to engage strike and maintain striking distances while the fight moves , never losing the strike zone . The chisao is simply developing an instinctive feel for what side to attack and making your arms able to fight either side seamlessly .
Knives adopt wider moves to the obvious extensions in the hands and the higher potential for death. Knives attack limbs so they can fight a wider perimiter with more mobility to escape any counter slashes...no movie sword fighting clanging knives back and forth. just because you 'land' a cut /stab is no guarantee the guy will stop swinging the machette at you as he is maimed/cut/dying...ergo get away and establish a perimiter again.

To develop the [knife] tactical responses to a given attacking limb [ armed or not ] we train in a method that is random and flowing , delivering a stepping entry with a matching arm to simulate a guy stepping [stabbing] at us with a jab/grab/stab/chop etc... our responses are slow and with bad angles , balance , no punch power ...so we repeat it often and on either side to become adept at SIMPLY striking an attacking side as it comes, in the same timing while using a simple tactic .
Depending on the height we can strike across the arm or catch /parry while hitting with the other. making sure that we train the parry/catching actions to have a lateral force while delivering a linear strike either with the same arm or with plan B alternating arms.
This can be done in each individual arm from inward elbow delivery of strikes alone. a Tan sao teaches to spread the elbow off line while striking on the outside of the forearm, tan never leaves the centerline to chase/block...it would be like punching at a guys punching arm :D silly looking. ANd if the tan is making lateral contact then your training to what ?
The jum sao is using inward elbow along our centerline in a rotational swap out of outside inside of our forearms as we attack the designated 'side' . Regardless of an arm being there or not , due to the positions of our forearms by elbow training we only have to strike /fight flanks, if an arm makes contact with our positions we then use trained reactions to remove or strike throught the actions , the whole time we still maintain an attacking intent /momentum . Attempting to turn our opponent from facing us by any means required...
Due tyo the nature of our fight we need to have both arms able to reach the target in rotation, never 2 arms extended as chisao or SLT for the simple reason that both arms can be blocked with a lateral block ... by maintinaing the concept of constant attacking froma free [ vusao] hand we are never at a loss to respond or strike.
Imagine someone attempting to fight your arms 1 at a time at high speed with only one of theirs alone flanked :D not very fair at all .
So what we strive to do is wait for the opponent to show us what side to attack and when. Constantly angling to our line of fire [centeline] against a target that cant get a shot back at us as we blitz it.
The common mistakes of this idea is to try to keep attacking once the guy has moved away from us...seen as a kamikaze like chain punch in the air down the center , like a charge across a battlefiled into silently waiting machinguns and bayonets, grappling , not very sound tactics ...rather we wait for them to come to us and commit their troops once we see the actions we have a simple idea present ourselves to the fight but never fight head on , simply place a machine gun [ 2 arms] and a rocket launcher [kick] at the sides of our line and attack the those nearest to the flanks [sides] the ensuing fight will not allow the center or far side to fight 'face on' as they would like to be at full strength.
So they might fall back to reface ...here we should [ no fixed plan] attack relentlessly to finish their attempts to regain ground on us and launch another attack. AIf they do we set up a new peimiter and wait again or watch for weakness ....if they fall back and run we win by surviving...no points for killing people.
Combat Mind

being able to maintain an attack delivering hard punches while angling /moving to a fight in motion is the idea. Adopting a second nature angling response to a line of force from chisao, rather than recieving it with 2 extended arms standing in front of it as it accomodates you doing 'poses'. Movement is a key elemnet of surviving any fight. running is one ;) being a hard target is 2 . dont be the heavy bag with arms .

Vt attacks by stalking the opponent for distance that allows a strike by movement on a perimiter that is slowly closing the distances without a charging kamikazee attack aka line of force. No lead legs are adopted until a given flank is attacked . in other word sone doesnt adopt lead leg 'righty' lefty' stance like a boxer. We want to be able to move into a lead leg /jab attempt, but with our movemnent taking us offline to the facing force while being in striking distances , not stepping to strike distnaces. It is hard to control a line of force charge with a lead leg ...knowing this we attack that idea but dont give it back to be done to us ...so we train to move in angles / curves / encroaching on movement off line to its attempts to face us. It becomes a mind game like any other free fight , no fixed applications , no memorized responses to a move that may never come. Simply maneuvering constantly waiting or getting closer without a show of commitment to their centers .

One of the strengths of BJJ /grappling isnt so much the hands on but the intent to finish / get in and end the fight ...good tactical thinking rather than jab /x back off...lead leg tentative jab / back off...etc...Vt & BJJ work in their intent seamlessly to end a fight asap once engaged. The concepts of Vt are to maintain the attack to finish rather than applications to be seen in the fight like a movie.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Knife work.
The "secret" is in the attack, the REALISSIM of the attack ( and subsequent attacks).

[AndrewS]

Hey Navin,

Hi Andrew,

One of my offensive strategies is also to cut off the ring with forward pressure, enclosing the attacker.

What are some of the stepping drills and concepts which you use to apply "cutting off the ring"?

Do you cut off the ring like George Foreman did against mohammed Ali using stacking stepping into his centerline, or do you try to keep the attacker facing away from you while you face him with either side or frontal facing?




Sounds like we're using similar ideas- the kinda 'meta' idea I use is to develop an eye for where to step so as to restrict the other persons motion in a direction, then make my next step and attack through that direction. The simplest example of this is seeing someone who crosses their feet while precontact, move to make them cross their feet, then crash during that moment. Against better people the mistakes are smaller, but the idea is the same- find the dead spot in the other person's motion where they aren't on 'point', where they're not free to move in all directions.

I used to do this by using what has been described to me as knife footwork- square stepping to the outside of the other person's feet, then enter on the triangle (d*mn, this is hard to verbalize). I'd keep aimed up the middle, but step to the outside of the other person's feet. This makes it so they tend to step to a place where I can just step forward and hit them, if they lose control of range during their stepping.

Now, after some coaching by Mr. Latosa, I do something similar, but use subtle shoulder shifts and less obvious footwork.

Drills to develop this
- 'stalking'- no strikes, one person moves however (and can try to execute the above ideas) while the other tries to keep the range fixed, stay on point, and deny angles no matter how the other steps and moves (forward, back, fast, slow, slipping, etc)
-above, + fixed range person steps to break range when they feel it
- add above to pure defence drills w/ hands (CM)
-add above to jab sparring
-add above to free boxing various intensities
- add above to legs only
-add above to free, low intensity
Can continue after engagement or just agree to disengage after a few seconds and work on free motion again
Same thing holds with sticks, and gets more obvious as a stick attack comes on a plane as opposed to a line.
Lock and block stick drills
Any free or cycled stick drill can use this.
Empty hand vs weapons, different weapon lengths, etc.

Hope this makes sense,

Andrew

[Ali. R]

And is that what one does when training in whatever system or art when preparing for: REALISSIM of the attack?


Ali Rahim.

[AndrewS]

Ali,

it's part of how I prepped for 1 amateur MMA match, and how we prepped 2 of my partners for low level pro matches.

If you're looking for REAL FOR THE STREET or whatever RBSD slogan you care to use, this will build a pretty nice game, but you have to compress time more. For that, I use drills where a random attack initiates as soon as you turn so you have to respond to an immediate sight picture.

Andrew

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Navin,




Sounds like we're using similar ideas- the kinda 'meta' idea I use is to develop an eye for where to step so as to restrict the other persons motion in a direction, then make my next step and attack through that direction. The simplest example of this is seeing someone who crosses their feet while precontact, move to make them cross their feet, then crash during that moment. Against better people the mistakes are smaller, but the idea is the same- find the dead spot in the other person's motion where they aren't on 'point', where they're not free to move in all directions.

I used to do this by using what has been described to me as knife footwork- square stepping to the outside of the other person's feet, then enter on the triangle (d*mn, this is hard to verbalize). I'd keep aimed up the middle, but step to the outside of the other person's feet. This makes it so they tend to step to a place where I can just step forward and hit them, if they lose control of range during their stepping.

Now, after some coaching by Mr. Latosa, I do something similar, but use subtle shoulder shifts and less obvious footwork.

Drills to develop this
- 'stalking'- no strikes, one person moves however (and can try to execute the above ideas) while the other tries to keep the range fixed, stay on point, and deny angles no matter how the other steps and moves (forward, back, fast, slow, slipping, etc)
-above, + fixed range person steps to break range when they feel it
- add above to pure defence drills w/ hands (CM)
-add above to jab sparring
-add above to free boxing various intensities
- add above to legs only
-add above to free, low intensity
Can continue after engagement or just agree to disengage after a few seconds and work on free motion again
Same thing holds with sticks, and gets more obvious as a stick attack comes on a plane as opposed to a line.
Lock and block stick drills
Any free or cycled stick drill can use this.
Empty hand vs weapons, different weapon lengths, etc.

Hope this makes sense,

Andrew

Hi Andrew!

Is this concept similar to the male and female triangle of kali or the dummy footwork?

Thanks
Navin

[AndrewS]

Navin,

those are patterns, this is more about how to read and feel.

Andrew

[monji112000]

What's "the dead spot", and "on Point"?

Are these footwork close to what you do?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=raFk_pQrMsQ



just a friendly question... why would you put all you body weight on you back foot? I have seen people use a 60/40 ... I believe strongly that someone can easily push you over, and that when you do land a punch you have little behind it. It just seems like the footwork is so un-natural (just an observation)... not trying to call you out or anything.

[kung fu fighter]

Sounds like we're using similar ideas- the kinda 'meta' idea I use is to develop an eye for where to step so as to restrict the other persons motion in a direction, then make my next step and attack through that direction. The simplest example of this is seeing someone who crosses their feet while precontact, move to make them cross their feet, then crash during that moment. Against better people the mistakes are smaller, but the idea is the same- find the dead spot in the other person's motion where they aren't on 'point', where they're not free to move in all directions.

Andrew

What's "the dead spot", and "on Point"?

Are these footwork close to what you do?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=raFk_pQrMsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLvs4-q6tE&feature=related



I used to do this by using what has been described to me as knife footwork- square stepping to the outside of the other person's feet, then enter on the triangle (d*mn, this is hard to verbalize). I'd keep aimed up the middle, but step to the outside of the other person's feet. This makes it so they tend to step to a place where I can just step forward and hit them, if they lose control of range during their stepping.
Andrew

Is this what you mean by the knife footwork?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsLiENU7NE

Are you referring to the sam gok ma footwork, where you step to the outside with the left foot and slide the rear right foot through to become the new lead foot ( like the first section of the dummy form)?

thanks
Navin

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Guys!

Here is an old full contact match, What do you guys think about thes cutting off the ring footwork being used by the wing chun fighter and how can it be improved upon? Could he have done better using triangle stepping?

How would this wing chun fighter's footwork fair up against today's western fighters such as in MMA or boxing?

http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/m/90645


Thanks
Navin

[AndrewS]

Navin,

frankly, that guy looked like he was doing what he needed to for the guy he was fighting. There are things he could have done better, but that's vintage 50s HK use of the knife footwork to cut the ring, stepping wide to the outside of the other guy's foot to limit his motion. Against someone with good legs and low kicking being that wide can get you in some trouble, but that's a fair example of some of what I've been bringing up.

Andrew

[kung fu fighter]

Navin,

frankly, that guy looked like he was doing what he needed to for the guy he was fighting. There are things he could have done better, but that's vintage 50s HK use of the knife footwork to cut the ring, stepping wide to the outside of the other guy's foot to limit his motion. Against someone with good legs and low kicking being that wide can get you in some trouble, but that's a fair example of some of what I've been bringing up.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

So are you saying that your footwork is similar to the footwork in that clip? If not what are the differences besides having a stance that wide?

Thanks
Navin

[AndrewS]

Navin,

well, I do it on two legs, too. . .

I don't go as wide, I use my shoulders to cut the outside lines off rather than my feet, I don't switch my lead as much, go parallel, or frankly lose control of my lead (it doesn't look to me like that guy is keeping track of where his feet are- he switches and goes parallel in front of the other person, leading to that mutual fall). I'll use an arrow step variant off the angle to enter sometimes. Beyond that, it gets more complicated than is easily amenable to description. Try the drill sequence I described without striking, trying to step in and project the other person, maybe that will help you understand what I'm getting at.

Andrew

BTW- the crash at 23-25sec is a nice example of finding a dead spot on which to enter.

[Phil Redmond]

Some examples of WC attacking closing the line of attack forcing the opponent to react.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDkPpWYYoI

The second fighter in this clip used a bong to cover the line while closing the gap. As most Lei Tai fighters know punches to the side of the headgear get more knockouts than straight punches to the front of the cage. We trained our guys to use WC round punches to achieve that goal.
(Yes, WC has round punches as seem in some lineages Biu Jee)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

[monji112000]

We trained our guys to use WC round punches to achieve that goal.
(Yes, WC has round punches as seem in some lineages Biu Jee)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI
Its nice to hear someone else say that. I like to use them for uppercuts and hooks. Its not 100% the same as a boxers, but its similar in a way.

[couch]

Its nice to hear someone else say that. I like to use them for uppercuts and hooks. Its not 100% the same as a boxers, but its similar in a way.

In one of Gary Lam's DVD's, he talks about how you need to be able to "straight punch" at different angles.

I agree with this, as you can easily (and quite straightly - is that a word?) hit around a straight line with a slightly "round" or curved line. Curved line beats straight line!

[kung fu fighter]

Here is a clip of wing chun failing once again because of lack of angular footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90guNZ_QhjU

[KPM]

Here is a clip of wing chun failing once again because of lack of angular footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90guNZ_QhjU

I'm not sure that's why he lost the fight. I think he lost because he ran out of gas near the end.....his conditioning wasn't the best. I would have had him ahead on points up until the end when he got tired and the MT guy landed his good shots.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm not sure that's why he lost the fight. I think he lost because he ran out of gas near the end.....his conditioning wasn't the best. I would have had him ahead on points up until the end when he got tired and the MT guy landed his good shots.
I'd agree with you Keith. At around 5:20 into the fight the WC guy ran out of gas. The indicator was his hands down by his side. Those gloves get really heavy when you're tired. With a little more conditioning he could have won the fight since he was ahead on points.

[kung fu fighter]

I also agree that he was out of gas. But I think he would have probably done much better and possibly ended the fight earlier had he been able to land clean shots from angles instead of going after the MT fighter in straight lines and trading punches.

[KPM]

I also agree that he was out of gas. But I think he would have probably done much better and possibly ended the fight earlier had he been able to land clean shots from angles instead of going after the MT fighter in straight lines and trading punches.


That could be true. But those bulky gloves would have likely gotten in the way and reduced his ability to "land clean shots from angles". I don't like boxing gloves. I'd rather spar with MMA gloves and headgear to get the same level of protection. And you have to admit....even though this WCK guy lost the fight, he looked better than a whole lot of other WCK guys we've seen sparring on video, and most of the time it actually looked like WCK! :D

[Phil Redmond]

That could be true. But those bulky gloves would have likely gotten in the way and reduced his ability to "land clean shots from angles". I don't like boxing gloves. I'd rather spar with MMA gloves and headgear to get the same level of protection. And you have to admit....even though this WCK guy lost the fight, he looked better than a whole lot of other WCK guys we've seen sparring on video, and most of the time it actually looked like WCK! :D
I agree Keith, the guy didn't look terrible. I'm not pointing to anyone in particular but it's usually the people who never competed that are the most critical of fight clips.
Why, I have no clue.

[kung fu fighter]

That could be true. But those bulky gloves would have likely gotten in the way and reduced his ability to "land clean shots from angles". I don't like boxing gloves. I'd rather spar with MMA gloves and headgear to get the same level of protection. And you have to admit....even though this WCK guy lost the fight, he looked better than a whole lot of other WCK guys we've seen sparring on video, and most of the time it actually looked like WCK! :D

I agree with you Keith, however it becomes alot easier to land direct clean shots if you are at the other fighter's flank, catching him unexpectedly. Most knockouts happen when a fighter doesn't see the shot coming from a blindside, therefore he doesn't prepare to take it. That's why good boxers use circling footwork to get an angle on his opponent. Props to the wing chun fighter for stepping into the ring, however the reason that I posted this clip was to start a discussion about what can be learnt from it, and how we as wing chun fighters can improved our foot work angles and general fighting.

[Vajramusti]

Navin-Per discussion request:

1.Praise to both participants for getting into the ring.Tougher to participate than comment-
admittedly.

2. The "wc" guy seemed to be winning at first- but faded towards the end.
In part could have been conditioning.

3.The MT guy went down or slipped at one point but the wc guy didnt seize the moment
and then the referee intervened. Possibly a rules issue.

4. FWIW I dont think footwork was the main issue. Whatever line the wc guy came from- he seemed to lack structure and therefore wing chun punching power. He reached the mt fuy often enough with his hands- but power appeared to be absent.

5. If trained properly- a wc person (if not empty handed)can adjust to those gloves.

joy chaudhuri

[Matrix]

Joy,

As usual you bring some good insights into the discussion

4. FWIW I dont think footwork was the main issue. Whatever line the wc guy came from- he seemed to lack structure and therefore wing chun punching power. He reached the mt fuy often enough with his hands- but power appeared to be absent.That's pretty much how I see it as well. For example, if you look at the punch at 4:12 and the subsequent slow-mo replay you can see that it's more of a pushing motion that being delivered. In fact, he even appears to be falling back himself so the power is not max'ed.

5. If trained properly- a wc person (if not empty handed)can adjust to those gloves.While I think the gloves are a limiting factor to some degree, the wing chun attributes that we train to develop should be helpful even with big gloves like these. I found it interesting that if you watched the WC do his form at the beginning of the clip that those body mechanics translated directly into his fighting - as one would expect it to be.

Sure, it's easy to be a keyboard warrior. I just don't think WC or MT would look to either of these guys as a good example of their art. Of course they won't be looking at me either. :)
and I think Phil would have taken either one of them out in 30 seconds or less.

Bill

[Vajramusti]

Sorry for a couple of key board-ing errors.

joy

[kung fu fighter]

Navin-Per discussion request:

1.Praise to both participants for getting into the ring.Tougher to participate than comment-
admittedly.

2. The "wc" guy seemed to be winning at first- but faded towards the end.
In part could have been conditioning.

3.The MT guy went down or slipped at one point but the wc guy didnt seize the moment
and then the referee intervened. Possibly a rules issue.

4. FWIW I dont think footwork was the main issue. Whatever line the wc guy came from- he seemed to lack structure and therefore wing chun punching power. He reached the mt fuy often enough with his hands- but power appeared to be absent.

5. If trained properly- a wc person (if not empty handed)can adjust to those gloves.

joy chaudhuri


Thanks Joy!

I know master Ho Had a couple of students that fought against thaiboxers such as Lu Min Fai and Tam Tam, how did they compare to the wing chun fighter in that clip? Did they also attacked straight down the center with basic punching and kicks? or did they control their opponent with better structure and jamed him up? Any comments about how they approached their bouts with the muai thai fighter would be greatly appreciated?

Also if you have any clips of the fights, can you post them!

Thanks
Navin

[Matrix]

Sorry for a couple of key board-ing errors.Joy,
Please, no need for apologies. Keyboarding errors are of no consequence. Just keep on bringing your positive energy to the discussion from time to time. :)

Peace,
Bill

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Bill

Navin- several of Ho kam Ming's students have done well against MT.

Tam Kam Hinh, Lui Ming fai and Chen Tinh Yan as well as A. Fong.

Sorry -I dont have any films. Tam used to have a web site of his own but I havent seen it lately.
He used to have pics of his bout against a MT person.

I realize that the first WC/MT encounters didnt go well but things began to change in the second and third go arounds.But folks are often stuck on the info from first round, and dont know about the others.

I have seen good MT in Bangok stadiums. Since then good MT has spread to Holland, Japan etc.

The key is how well one has trained and whether the WC folks know how to play their WC.

Say hello to Roy for me.

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Bill

Navin- several of Ho kam Ming's students have done well against MT.

Tam Kam Hinh, Lui Ming fai and Chen Tinh Yan as well as A. Fong.

Sorry -I dont have any films. Tam used to have a web site of his own but I havent seen it lately.
He used to have pics of his bout against a MT person.

I realize that the first WC/MT encounters didnt go well but things began to change in the second and third go arounds.But folks are often stuck on the info from first round, and dont know about the others.

I have seen good MT in Bangok stadiums. Since then good MT has spread to Holland, Japan etc.

The key is how well one has trained and whether the WC folks know how to play their WC.

Say hello to Roy for me.

joy chaudhuri


No problem!

I will When I see him, I recently got engaged and moved out of his nabourhood so i don't get to see Roy as much as I would like to any more.

Thanks
Navin

[Vajramusti]

Navin- congratulations!

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Joy!

How is everything going with you?
Got a quick question for you, pm me if you prefer.

I noticed master Augustine Fong uses a different type of footwork than master Ho Kam Ming does to advance. it's combination of shifting while advancing or retreating. Here is a clip of the footwork that I am refering to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE16oTCYDzw&feature=related
I was just wondering where he picked it up from. if it's from the Pin Sun/ gulao system?
I like master Fong's stepping better because it doesn't give a flank, But I would like to know where it comes from, since i have never seen it anywhere in the Yip Man linage, except through Master Augustine Fong line.

Thanks
Navin

[Matrix]

I will When I see him, I recently got engaged and moved out of his nabourhood so i don't get to see Roy as much as I would like to any more. Navin,
Is Roy still down on The Danforth?

Bill

[kung fu fighter]

Navin,
Is Roy still down on The Danforth?

Bill

Yea he is, His school is at Danforth and greenwood where he teaches wing chun, sayoc kali, and wushu.
How do you know him?

[Vajramusti]

Navin- some points:
1. I dont speak for Master Fong-he speaks for himself-and in his May seminars in Tucson he speaks of what he does freely and at great length.He is not active in chat lists and does not have a chain of schools.

2. In my opinion both Fong and his sifu -Ho- operate from the same fundamental principles.
The square bodied two handed approach and a solid structure without tightening up is in both their kung fu. I dont know how you got Gu lao and Pin Sun into the discussion. Ho was a long standing close student of Ip Man and Fong was a long standing student of Ho. The roots are the same. There is no Gu Lao/Pin Sun in there. Nor is there anything but wing chun there.

3.After "graduation" in most dynamic fields-there is individuation even when using the same principles.Ho calls his wing chun- Ho Kam Ming Wing Chun-just as Fong's is Fong Wing Chun.
No cookie cutter or robotics there.

4.Fong's footwork is very dynamic-videos don't do justice---but all the footwork and moving stances are there in the forms and the jong and the weapons training. In the jong alone- chor ma, biu ma, huen ma---they are all there when properly understood.

5 Ofcourse there are amazingly wide variations among Ip Man's students-but you have to figure out who, studied what, when, how and for how long. That may account for the differences-quantitaively and qualitatively.

Opinions anyway.Good night. Tomorrow night is a big Tuesday in the US-Tex, Ohio, Vermont etc.

Joy Chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Here is another wing chun fighter with poor attacking strategy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk

How could this wing chun fighter have improved his attacking strategy, or set his opponent up using timing and distancing to his advantage?

[bakxierboxer]

Here is another wing chun fighter with poor attacking strategy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk

How could this wing chun fighter have improved his attacking strategy, or set his opponent up using timing and distancing to his advantage?

Nothing like over-reaching.
He was matched against Joko Ninomiya......

[Liddel]

How could this wing chun fighter have improved his attacking strategy, or set his opponent up using timing and distancing to his advantage?

First off - when greedy with punches mind your empty space -

This is a common saying in Kung Fu which it seems this guy wasnt thinking off.
He's all arms and not mixing his actions up, which made him predictable for a start.

A better approach would be to group actions and reset. Launch what you want call it a blast if you want then move reset and begin again.

Constant attack means you leave yourself open somewhere and make yourself less able to interupt your actions if your opponent is good at countering.

The VT guy should also feel very confortable countering. Pak Bil Lop etc etc are all good countering methods IMO. IME its good to attack then reset range and posture and wait to counter when your opponent retaliates. (which should be a very quick follow up if your opponent is good)

If you are intent on blasting - group attack actions in sets, after each combo change angles. i.e he could have chain punched 4 or 5 times then used triangle stepping to the outside while launching body shots or even elbows if they were allowed etc etc. then back to the center again.

Constantly changing angles and height of attacks keeps the opponent guessing.
He was to predictable and lacked power because of his base.

IMO it seemed as though he wasnt that experienced.

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is another wing chun fighter with poor attacking strategy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk

How could this wing chun fighter have improved his attacking strategy, or set his opponent up using timing and distancing to his advantage?

There has been some debate about the validity of those "WC fighters".
And this coming from a kyokushin Nidan.
They certainly were not the best representatives of WC of CMA.

And to echo what Bakxierboxer said, he was fighting Ninomya, one of the best in his time.

[tjwingchun]

IMO it seemed as though he wasnt that experienced.

DREWHe was simply cr@p, not a fighter and no power, trying to hurt an obviously confident fighter with what I term "wet lettuce" strikes.

Give him credit for having a go but question the instructor that told him he was ready to compete.

[UKBBC]

I noticed master Augustine Fong uses a different type of footwork than master Ho Kam Ming does to advance. it's combination of shifting while advancing or retreating.
I like master Fong's stepping better because it doesn't give a flank, But I would like to know where it comes from, since i have never seen it anywhere in the Yip Man linage, except through Master Augustine Fong line.


That's the bracing footwork you are referring to right? Yeah, I haven't come across that in other Yip Man lineages I have encountered, it's a very useful piece of footwork, adds lot of power in a short step.

[bakxierboxer]

And to echo what Bakxierboxer said, he was fighting Ninomya, one of the best in his time.

IIRC, he was in the top tier of the Oyama All-Japan Tournaments for @ 7 years.... "only" winning once, but "place" or "show" in that kind of competition is nothing to sneeze at... and I think his first time in it was at @ 19.

(aaaaannnd.... why do I "know" "so much" about him? :D )

[sanjuro_ronin]

IIRC, he was in the top tier of the Oyama All-Japan Tournaments for @ 7 years.... "only" winning once, but "place" or "show" in that kind of competition is nothing to sneeze at... and I think his first time in it was at @ 19.

(aaaaannnd.... why do I "know" "so much" about him? :D )

Yes, all that is quite correct, for those that are unaware, kyokuhsin was fought ( and still is in some places) with NO weight categories and Ninomiya was never that big.
His Enshin is top notch by the way.
Why do you know so much about him ?

[bakxierboxer]

Yes, all that is quite correct, for those that are unaware, kyokuhsin was fought ( and still is in some places) with NO weight categories and Ninomiya was never that big.
His Enshin is top notch by the way.
Why do you know so much about him ?

At one time, Chung Sifu was "tight" with Tadashi Nakamura of NYC, and I got on rather well with Shigeru Oyama in Bridgeport (& then Fairfield), Ct.
Tournaments would occasionally find us together at ringside making/trading disparaging remarks about "other styles" (and guys named "Yu")
In any case, Oyama's dojo is where Ninomiya ended up doing most of his training/teaching and one of the students there (of the Italian persuasion) had "connections" in "da Siddy" and they were trying to set up a pro match between Ninomiya and me(?)

The Italian kid had been taking Shotokan from another Italian guy in Stamford and decided he'd like to spar with me.... shortly thereafter, he started looking for "better" training.... and, as luck would have it, Oyama opened up.
He improved enough where he got around to asking to spar again.... and ended up deciding that he'd found "just the ticket" for a good match, since his results with me were "about what he'd ended up with against Ninomiya"

It never got past the talking stages, but during those talking stages, I found that I had a rather heightened interest in my potential opponent.

[Vajramusti]

I finally got to see the clip. I had seen it before. An Oyama folks handpicked showcase.Not taking anything away frim Ninomiya- (had
a good pre Pearl Harbor class mate by that family name: father was in the consulate in Calcutta and the family left just before Pearl Harbor).

That WC guy is an example of problems in wing chun- his wing chun was junk- just firing sloppy
punches. Go back and look at his fundamentals- his forms in the clip.X%^&GRR- junk...no structure, center,proper motion or power. Dont know where he is from.

Since wc became "popular" much of what came out of the woodwork is junk!

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

At one time, Chung Sifu was "tight" with Tadashi Nakamura of NYC, and I got on rather well with Shigeru Oyama in Bridgeport (& then Fairfield), Ct.
Tournaments would occasionally find us together at ringside making/trading disparaging remarks about "other styles" (and guys named "Yu")
In any case, Oyama's dojo is where Ninomiya ended up doing most of his training/teaching and one of the students there (of the Italian persuasion) had "connections" in "da Siddy" and they were trying to set up a pro match between Ninomiya and me(?)

The Italian kid had been taking Shotokan from another Italian guy in Stamford and decided he'd like to spar with me.... shortly thereafter, he started looking for "better" training.... and, as luck would have it, Oyama opened up.
He improved enough where he got around to asking to spar again.... and ended up deciding that he'd found "just the ticket" for a good match, since his results with me were "about what he'd ended up with against Ninomiya"

It never got past the talking stages, but during those talking stages, I found that I had a rather heightened interest in my potential opponent.

Nakamura was a hardass and so was Oyama from what I gathered.
Ninomya is a pure class act all the way.
If there was an Enshin Dojo, I would be there.
His judo influence is in it too.

On a side note: so many of Ninomya's contemporaries went on the creat other systems, including one of Ninomya';s teachers, Ashihara.
Royama
Soeno
Azuma.

[bakxierboxer]

Nakamura was a hardass and so was Oyama from what I gathered.

You gather good.

Ninomya is a pure class act all the way.

I won't say otherwise.

If there was an Enshin Dojo, I would be there.


If I understand correctly, they are in somewhat of an expansion mode....

His judo influence is in it too.

His initial "root".

On a side note: so many of Ninomya's contemporaries went on the creat other systems, including one of Ninomya';s teachers, Ashihara.

True, dat.

[kung fu fighter]

That's the bracing footwork you are referring to right? Yeah, I haven't come across that in other Yip Man lineages I have encountered, it's a very useful piece of footwork, adds lot of power in a short step.

The only other linage that I have seen it in is the Duncan Leung linage!

[bakxierboxer]

The only other linage that I have seen it in is the Duncan Leung linage!

What little I've seen of Duncan Leung has been exceedingly good.
He's also got some very fine kicking skills.