Honest HFY Question- [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phil Redmond

01-21-2008, 07:33 PM

Hey Phil!

When was this "secret" revealed? That wasn't part of the 3rd form when I learned it from John Clayton. It also wasn't part of the 3rd form in Master Cheung's book.

First of all Capt'n I want to make it clear that there are no secrets. I don't want to get slammed here again for my joke about it . . .lol
The Gwai Mah has been a part of the form for years. When Sifu Delroi Flood from Bermuda went to Australia in the 80's he saw the Aussies doing the Gwai Mah and showed it to me. We would pratice it but never taught it. Also, I have a video from a 2006 L.A. seminar where Joe Sayah asks Sifu Cheung about the Gwai Mah section of the Biu Jee form that was taught years ago and if we could start teaching it again. Sifu said OK so it's back in the form. There are also kicks on the dummy that many people may not have seen that are taught now. There is footage of Sifu doing the dummy form with those kicks when he went to the VTTA in HK in the late 70's to show the forms. In fact there are things I hadn't seen before myself that have been taught in the last few years. But remember, they aren't secrets but just things Sifu has decided to teach now.
Phil

anerlich

01-21-2008, 11:41 PM

The Gwai Mah was part of the form when I learned it in c. 1991-2 while my academy was still part of the WWCKFA.

I've been taught the 16 kick dummy set, and another chi gerk dummy set, but AFAIK these were not on the curriculum from 1989-1996 (whne I started TWC and when my instructor left the WWCKFA). My instructor had learned them at some earlier time from GM Cheung.

Phil Redmond

01-21-2008, 11:53 PM

osprey3883

01-22-2008, 05:18 AM

John,
In response to your question, HFY does indeed have Gwai Ma.
But I don't think getting this answered is your real motive. Gwai ma is all over the place in traditional Kung Fu systems, and your question is as silly as someone asking if martial art uses arms and legs.
Given your history with Robert hopefully this isn't some cheap attempt to further propogate rumors Robert started about TWC and HFY somehow being stolen or borrowing from each other. If so next thing you know maybe you will take the stance that Choi Lee Fut came from HFY or TWC since they too use Gwai Ma.

Matt

canglong

01-22-2008, 07:40 AM

Honest HFY Question-
no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?By default John through your connection with Robert Chu any question you have for HFY is seen as insincere of questionable motive and in this particular case as a waste of time since the way this question was formed shows a lack of common knowledge on your part no understanding of Chinese and that you are willing to risk looking foolish for some reason when you could have very easily done a search of this forum on your own and formed an intelligent opinion as to the answer and then asked a more credible question.

Even with the trivial and frivolous answer provided by Mr. Punch he comes off as slightly more credible than yourself even if he did have a 50/50 chance of guessing southern arts sometimes have things in common.

I agree with Matt on the surface your question sounds silly but my analogy would be akin to asking a southern martial artist do you use sao in your system. Gwai Ma is present in all southern martial arts in some form or another. Gwai Ma is more a term emphasizing the use of the knee but more times than not any specific use because it is a general term. Any system which emphasizes tin yaan dei as Hung Fa Yi does and being a southern martial art will utilize Gwai Ma but it will not be specific to the Bui Jee level because again it is a general term.

If Robert has any more questions tell him to ask them himself.

drleungjohn

01-22-2008, 08:24 AM

Real good way to win friends and influence people-so because I know Robert I'm guilty of what?

Robert is his own man-I am not his mouthpiece

How about this guys-Yip man lineage doesn't have it in the forms,Yeun Kay San does-so easy to ask a question if I don't know an answer-why "assume"?

How many bs threads and flame wars have I been involved with on this forum?

How often do I post here?

My history on this board is non confrontational !

I have been on good terms to Benny and Gee sifu for a long time.

Why create a problem that isn't here due to knee jerk reaction?

I asked a black and white question-period.

Phil Redmond

01-22-2008, 08:48 AM

I don't think John meant anything bad and I understand how you might feel. HFY and TWC are controversial versions of WC. You should expect queries based on that fact.
People always ask why is your tan sao so high, why do you train to fight on the blindside, YM taught everyone the same, your forms look funny? I could go on. I don't react negatively though. The only way to prove the effectiveness of a fighting art is to fight. Get my point? We fight and what we use works. You're going to get questions so what people say doesn't really matter. I deal with questions from a techniacal standpoint. I don't take it personal. After all NONE of us can claim to know everything about WC history or origins.

canglong

01-22-2008, 09:40 AM

Honest HFY Question-
no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...No one who starts off with a phrase like that is ever taken seriously. It's equivalent to saying "I'm not a racist but..." John, you're on such good terms with Benny why not just ask him your questions.

Phil
It's a two way street if you don't want your question to be taken personal might I suggest that a person not take the answer personal either. Phil you of all people should understand how the insincerity of this particular question was perceived by HFY members. We have local and international students and family members who viewed the question based upon John's relationship to Robert which could never be mistaken as sincere given his history and willingness to instigate ill will and distrust. We contrast with the likes of your own family member Sifu Flood who traveled more than 2,000 miles to a HFY Seminar in Dayton to have his questions answered in person. Sifu Flood as you will remember stated he saw things on the surface that he thought were similar to his previous training only to have the details presented to him in person and find out that things can look similar but provided with the details they can actually be quite different that is the route to finding real answers.

People of questionable character or associates of those with questionable character or a known bias towards the HFY family should expect their questions to be received with some animosity or a watchful eye at the very least. There are many reasons to doubt the sincerity of John's question not the least of which is that he gives no detail for why he raised the question in his original post and later he suggest that for someone who doesn't post very often it makes sense that this inaccurate question was a good reason to post.

So on the contrary if John is trying to insight the whole of the HFY family both local and internationally by posting questions such as this he only risk further widening the distrust created by Robert Chu and angering our members to the point that they do answer him more harshly than I or Matt have already. You get what you put out Sifu Flood has won the admiration of many of our members simply because he was willing to do things in a manner which show sincerity with action over words. So at this point John appears to be more about games and more distrust than he is about positive and sincere action and interaction involved in positive learning and sharing of ideas. Other HFY members have read the post and chose not to answer him but should they meet in person they might be a little more willing to express themselves to him. That is something to take into account as well when phrasing these questions on an international web site.

osprey3883

01-22-2008, 06:28 PM

John,
re-
Why create a problem that isn't here due to knee jerk reaction?

I asked a black and white question-period.

If you look at your original question-
no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...

To me that comes across like you expect a shady answer or some deception, when you ask like that expect to get a response you probably won't like.

Matt

CFT

01-22-2008, 06:49 PM

John,
re-

If you look at your original question-

To me that comes across like you expect a shady answer or some deception, when you ask like that expect to get a response you probably won't like.

MattIf you weren't so wary of shadows that are not there you could have interpreted it as: "no tricks or bait and switch on my (John C) part".

When he is asking for a "yes or no" answer, how can you offer a shady answer? A deceptive one maybe, but that is only a 50-50 possibility.

You're usually more open than others to questions about HFYWCK.

HFYWCK against the world ... rah rah rah ...

sihing

01-22-2008, 08:30 PM

Chee,

Some people/groups are their own worst enemy, I'm starting to think that is the case here:)

James

anerlich

01-22-2008, 11:09 PM

To me that comes across like you expect a shady answer or some deception, when you ask like that expect to get a response you probably won't like.

Actually, it came across more like he really wanted a straight answer and was at great pains to try to avoid incurring the long, rambling, paranoid, accusational rants that you and Tony "five dollar man" Jacobs responded with.

People of questionable character or associates of those with questionable character or a known bias towards the HFY family should expect their questions to be received with some animosity or a watchful eye at the very least.

Maybe some people have a known bias towards HFY because some of you come across as paranoid lunatics with OCD, or talk smack about other lineages in a book.

Duende ande JP at least come across as reasonable, the rest of you need to develop some outside interests. Try bonsai or life drawing.

We have local and international students and family members who viewed the question based upon John's relationship to Robert which could never be mistaken as sincere given his history and willingness to instigate ill will and distrust.

Sure, and he's in constant contact with Osama Bin Laden and Pol Pot's and Mussolini's ghosts as well :rolleyes:

Are you telling me these "local and international students and family members" are constantly scanning forums lookimg for anti-HFY undertones in posts so that they can expose the perpetrators at length?

Jesus, get a friggin' life. You HFY guys are weird.

canglong

01-22-2008, 11:21 PM

When he is asking for a "yes or no" answer, how can you offer a shady answer? A deceptive one maybe, but that is only a 50-50 possibility.CFT,
There is an inherent problem in the fact that you can't give a yes or no answer to an essay question. If John is unhappy with the answer he received to the question he put out he only need look within to understand why that is.

Mr Punch

01-23-2008, 12:08 AM

CFT,
There is an inherent problem in the fact that you can't give a yes or no answer to an essay question. If John is unhappy with the answer he received to the question he put out he only need look within to understand why that is.Frivolous though it may be (though NEVER trivial in my frivolity - b!atch :eek: :p ), you are wrong. The answer was, as previously stated: yes. End of thread, end of drama, end of chat.

Bonsai can be the only way forward.

CFT

01-23-2008, 01:58 AM

To be pedantic, and why not, it beats animosity ...

Matt answered that gwai ma was in HFYWCK as well as other Southern CMA. He did not confirm or deny that it was in the HFY Biu Jee form.

KPM

01-23-2008, 05:51 AM

CFT,
There is an inherent problem in the fact that you can't give a yes or no answer to an essay question. If John is unhappy with the answer he received to the question he put out he only need look within to understand why that is.

What a load of bull! I wouldn't touch HFY with a 10 foot pole! You guys come across like a bunch of lunatic cult members! John asked a simple and straight-forward question that was easily answered with "yes" or "no." He included a short disclaimer in the beginning in hopes of avoiding the kind of animostic response that he got. Matt & Tony....all you've managed to do on this thread is...once again....make the HFY family look bad. Good going! Regardless of whether John has some kind of history with HFY, it was a simple question that he asked. Anyone reading this thread that is new to WCK would wonder just what pile of crap John accidently stepped in here, and just what kind of loonies the HFY guys really are!

Liddel

01-23-2008, 06:38 AM

John asked a simple and straight-forward question that was easily answered with "yes" or "no."

LOL....

Have you tried to read the Book "Mastering Kung Fu" perhaps he should have used the terms "battle arrays" or "Gwai ma science and developement"

If he'd read the book, he would have realised like i have, with these guys...there are no simple answers.

Just one mans opinion.

DREW

drleungjohn

01-23-2008, 06:48 AM

thanks-but don't waste or bother-

I posted it that way to try and have it be simple-SINCE I DON'T POST MUCH,NOT CONNECTED TO ANYONE POLITICALLY,AND HAVE A PRETTY LEVEL HEADED REPUTATION IN MOST CIRCLES-BUT,they misread it-and read into it because I have a relationship with Robert,and I would guess don't hold to the sacred creedo that HFY is a separate animal from TWC-so that makes me guilty of plots and schemes...sorry but it just means I have an opinion that I usually keep to myself-

I have relationships(patients) with Hookers,Strippers and Porn Stars too-what does that make me?(Lucky?)

I wasn't even on this regularly-if you can call it that-till about a year ago when Duende used me as a reference to try and help his case about HFY vs TWC-

I went to the first HFY seminar in Arizona years ago-why-To see for myself-and up until last year-you nor anyone else really heard a peep out of me about what I thought-

So since I have an opinion that is not shared-I am a bad guy,and obviously on some sort of enemy list it appears--and since I am a friend of Robert's -his puppet

None of their conclusions hold any water-it's ok-

Tony wanted me to write an essay about why I wanted to know-

Well I am a Wing Chun guy-a simple question,not fa kune!

I posted my reasons already in my second post-direct and to the point-

junmo

01-23-2008, 09:23 AM

Did you hear the one about a TWC guy, a HFY guy who walked into a bar?? So the WC guy says.......geez give it a friggin rest will you...I swear you guys were banging on with the same he said she said ****e the last time I was here to try and LEARN something interesting...:confused:

canglong

01-23-2008, 09:45 AM

To be pedantic, and why not, it beats animosity ...CFT,
The difference between the question and the answer only appears that way the animosity is a matter of opinion.What a load of bull! I wouldn't touch HFY with a 10 foot pole!KPM,
Anyone coming to that conclusion based upon conversations made on an internet forum is as irresponsible as they are narrow minded.

There is no need to speculate on answer to a question that is specific to a particular lineage that you can't verify the answer to without more awareness of the system itself. Since everyone here seems to have an opinion based on their own interpretation of the question and their understanding of "Gwai Ma" relative to their experience instead of dwelling on what you perceive as a negative add some positive feed back and answer what you believe "Gwai Ma" is and how it is used in the martial art you practice.

duende

01-23-2008, 09:47 AM

It's true, I used John as a reference on a thread TWC/HFY thread awhile back. I assumed that if he had a difference of opinion then the actual TWC trained instructor who was present at that Seminar (Sifu William Mason), that he would of said something then. As John led us to believe by his behavior that he appreciated the HFYWC system knowledge that we focused on at the Seminar.

Instead he chose to voice his difference of opinion here, years later on KFO...

Call me paranoid, or what have you... but though it's not a "bait and switch-black", it certainly smells the same to me.

Differences of opinion are always welcome in my book.

I just don't have much respect for those who make judgements and act like an expert before they put their time in and have real understanding under their belt.

But if you guys want to keep listening to the "Seminar Sifu's" go right ahead.

Liddel

if you dislike that book so much that my KF brother bought for you... show some class and pass it on to someone else.

KPM

01-23-2008, 03:24 PM

There is no need to speculate on answer to a question that is specific to a particular lineage that you can't verify the answer to without more awareness of the system itself. Since everyone here seems to have an opinion based on their own interpretation of the question and their understanding of "Gwai Ma" relative to their experience instead of dwelling on what you perceive as a negative add some positive feed back and answer what you believe "Gwai Ma" is and how it is used in the martial art you practice.

What another load of bull! Do you guys take lessons in "double speak?" It seems to just keep getting deaper and deaper! :eek:

CHS

01-23-2008, 06:27 PM

duende

01-23-2008, 08:08 PM

:confused: Matt/Canglong,
Why got so sensitive or defensive on a question? Did buddhism (part of HFY philiosophy) teach you that there are always 2 ways to interpret something: constructive way and destructive way? It seemed like you always take things negatively.

Please, it was JUST a question.

If you like it, answer it, otherwise, just don't! Why spending so much energy defending your position on a questionable motive and attacking it?

Here we go again....... :eek:

The forum was quite peaceful until.........

CHS

You know... you're right, and to a large extent I regret that this thread caused so much negative energy.

Unfortunately however, there exist a few individuals who use every chance comparison of HFY and TWC to slander our system in a very bad way. This is unacceptable.

So until these certain few get a grip on there ego's.... you're going to have HFY members on the defensive and innocent people get caught in the crossfire.

I wish it wasn't this way, but it is. I look forward to the day when all this silliness comes to an end.

Sihing73

01-23-2008, 08:22 PM

I wish it wasn't this way, but it is. I look forward to the day when all this silliness comes to an end.

Hello,

One way to start down this path is to ignore the negativity and refuse to feed it. A sure way to deal with an offending person is to return kindness for goodness. Like the Bible says, this is like heaping hot coals upon his head.

Seems to me that to respond without animosity and anger or defensiveness would lend more credence to ones position. Everyone will have differences of opinion but when you permit someone else to make you respond in a certain way, don't you really give them a measure of control over you???

UKBBC

01-23-2008, 08:54 PM

I fail to see why a civil response can't be:

"Thanks for asking. Yes, we have move X in form Y and we apply in manner Z. How do you guys do yours?"

But then, that may be too easy....

JPinAZ

01-23-2008, 09:38 PM

Hello all - Sorry to see how this thread turned out (and started).

no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...
Does HFY have a Gwai ma section in their Biu Jee form?

IMO, when I first read this (regardless WHO posts it - I don't know John), if he was 100% genuine in his question, and always has been, why even post the first half "no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please..."?
It seemed to me he was trying to clear the air up front because of past performances of doing just this (tricks/bait & swtich). If not, why not just ask the question? To me, it seems like a bit of guilty concience to me (and I read this post before anyone else replied)

Then he writes exactly how he expects to be answered "black/white - yes/no" - doesn't leave much room for discussion either does it? To me, this really doesn't sound like someone that is genuinely out to have a conversation or after anything productive. And I'm trying to ignore all the HFY vs. TWC vs. the rest of the WC World crap - I really don't have time for that.

Now, I could be wrong in my first assumption, but why not just simply ask the question, or maybe even give a reason why up front? I can see where this might put someone on guard in posting on the thread.

Funny, before a HFY person even gave an answer (someone else did), this was posted:

Interesting, so does TWC. Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto demonstates it here: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp

No offence inteded to the poster, but before someone from HFY even gave an answer, a comparison between HFY & TWC is already being made. Now, I realize that it wasn't John that posted this, but how does this look?

Regards,
Jonathan

drleungjohn

01-23-2008, 09:39 PM

Yes-you are paranoid---that's the price of being in a secret society,triad,tong,cell group,gang,mafia whatever

Ego-were was the ego in a question?
I wrote it like that to avoid all this bs-you you guys didn't take it like that-sorry an too bad-really

My respect for HFY has nothing to do with my opinion of what it is or where it comes from-that's called maturity
My respect for it and Gee sifu kept me quiet and away from this nonsense for years-that's called being a stand up guy and a gentleman-

As for Bill Mason-so you are saying that I don't know enough about TWC,THAT I AM NOT A FULLY TRAINED SIFU IN IT?

You use the seminar sifu experience to discredit my opinion,when you use Delroi and Mason's-from seminars!

And what qualifications Bill Mason have-he got his "TWC" from Phil Holder-mine came direct from Cheung sifu

Bill Mason said it was A DIFFERENT VERSION-so he is sited as an expert-?!?
Guys in YOUR OWN CAMP-whom out of RESPECT shall be nameless feel one got it from the other-MAKING IT THE SAME SYSTEM

Drew-I didn't read the book-but I did look at the pictures_LOL!

Canglong-you would foster more positive understanding by using terminology that people understand,and not heaven,man and earth flowers-you guys aren't he only game in town for understanding chinese,or using it to separate yourselves from the rest,or try to give yourself a superior sense of knowledge,pedigree or standing

AS AN ASIDE,FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE-I really don't think this marketing strategy is working too well for you--
let's move on---

drleungjohn

01-23-2008, 09:42 PM

exactly-all I wanted was a yes or no answer-no discussion means no bs-
MY ATTEMPT AT TRYING TO KEEP IT SIMPLE WITH THE PREFACE OBVIOUSLY FAILED AND WAS READ INTO

Again-it's a shame

JPinAZ

01-23-2008, 09:48 PM

exactly-all I wanted was a yes or no answer-no discussion means no bs-
MY ATTEMPT AT TRYING TO KEEP IT SIMPLE WITH THE PREFACE OBVIOUSLY FAILED AND WAS READ INTO

Again-it's a shame

John, then why state that you (john) aren't igoing to attempt any tricks or bait/switch? What brought this on, is this something you've done in the past? If not, then why not just state the balck/white yes/no?
Either way, IMO, the demand for a yes/no answer is a bit presumtious don't you think? Were you even interested in conversation?

JPinAZ

01-23-2008, 09:57 PM

Ok, now things become a bit more clear to me.

--that's the price of being in a secret society,triad,tong,cell group,gang,mafia whatever

So, this is what you REALLY think of HFY and its members? I am beginning to understand the inital apprehention of Matt and Tony... Gang? Mafia? Triad?

My respect for HFY has nothing to do with my opinion of what it is or where it comes from-that's called maturity
My respect for it and Gee sifu kept me quiet and away from this nonsense for years-that's called being a stand up guy and a gentleman-

John, now that you are not quiet, what is your opinion? I ask because the impression you are giving makes me think the initial quesiton was a bit loaded now...

...you guys aren't he only game in town for understanding chinese,or using it to separate yourselves from the rest,or try to give yourself a superior sense of knowledge,pedigree or standing

So, that is your opinion, that we use some of the traditional chinese terms so we can give ourselves a "superior sense of knowledge,pedigree or standing"? Hmmm, you don't even know me, but now you assume that since I also am from HFY and also use these terms that this is the reason?!?!? I think you are assuming much too much here.
The picture is getting clearer indeed....

Without knowing anything about you from the start, I am thinking my initial assumption regarding you 'intentions' on the first post was right. You aren't interested in anything more than to start crap. And to think I was giving you the benifit of the doubt....

You obviously have a low opinion for the HFY lineage, as well as its members, so why do you even care what they have in thier system?

Jonathan

anerlich

01-23-2008, 11:33 PM

No offence inteded to the poster,

LOL, you mean like "no bait and switch, honest question..." etc :p

but before someone from HFY even gave an answer, a comparison between HFY & TWC is already being made. Now, I realize that it wasn't John that posted this, but how does this look?

It sounded to me like the poster of the Ryan Kennedy clip might have thought it worthwhile pointing out that the section existed in TWC's form. After that, in the absence of answers, we had a discussion amongst various TWCers about the history of that section in TWC and who learned it when. Probably only interesting to TWCer's, but some discussions are like that. AS a TWCer, I found it interesting. And civil, up to that point.

If you, osprey and $5 Tony can see sinister overtones in that, you need therapy.

if you dislike that book so much that my KF brother bought for you... show some class and pass it on to someone else.

It may be possible he dislikes it so much he feels that NOT inflicting it on anyone else is the class act. Of course, second-guessing the motives of others makes you out to be a moron, a fact the HFY posters on this thread have manifestly demonstrated.

I didn't dislike the book, though I thought the sections on "internet historians" and "popular Wing Chun" were poorly disguised, undeserved. foolish and immature attacks on other lineages and historians. Anyone who wants my copy (I paid for it) is welcome to it, though they won't get it without an advisory warning on the content (take with a whole shaker of salt).

If you guys didn't jump all over anyone that posts anything + or -, about HFY, people would probably ignore and forget you. Perhaps this animosity comes out of fear of fading into irrelevance?

Ultimatewingchun

01-23-2008, 11:54 PM

It just never ends - the HFY "us against the world" mindset.

And the more it goes on - the more suspicious the HFY "phenomena" appears to be.

It's clearly the same system as TWC - there, I've said it again.

Certain differences around the edges - but basically the same exact system.

Period...and onto the next thread.

CFT

01-24-2008, 12:59 AM

So, this is what you REALLY think of HFY and its members? I am beginning to understand the inital apprehention of Matt and Tony... Gang? Mafia? Triad?Well, HFY claims to be the lineage holders for anti-Qing revolutionary WCK. Who else are the descendants of anti-Qing revolutionary organisations? The modern day triads - what is the "sam hup" in "Sam Hop Wui"? You see why people draw comparisons, even if they are incorrect?

Also the secrecy around proof of HFY lineage. OK you don't have an obligation to make the evidence public, but you can't then ask people to accept something they have not seen. Lineage should not be a matter of faith!

In this day and age who needs to be protected? The communist government in the PRC aren't clamping down on traditional martial artists any more - to the contrary in fact.

Phil Redmond

01-24-2008, 01:03 AM

Funny, before a HFY person even gave an answer (someone else did), this was posted:

No offence inteded to the poster, but before someone from HFY even gave an answer, a comparison between HFY & TWC is already being made. Now, I realize that it wasn't John that posted this, but how does this look?

Regards,
Jonathan
Hello, I made that post just responding to someone who posted that there was a Gwai Mah in HFY Biu Jee. How did you perceive that as something bad? I've never made a negative post about you guys.

JPinAZ

01-24-2008, 01:29 AM

Hello, I made that post just responding to someone who posted that there was a Gwai Mah in HFY Biu Jee. How did you percieve that as something bad? I've never made a negative post about you guys.

Sifu Phil,

I never said this was something bad. Nor did I intend to say that you ever said anything negative about HFY as far as I know. My point more-or-less was that no one from HFY even gave the answer prior to you posting a comparison. I believe it was M.r Punch being a smart a$$, and I pretty sure we all know he is not from HFY.

IMO, each system should stand on thier own, as should they all. But all too often comparisons are being made and people are saying & drawing conclusions that they (HFY/TWC) are the same - and mostly without the necessary experience in BOTH systems to draw any conclusions.

Curious what you found 'interesting' and what made you draw a comparison by saying "TWC has that too" - what does this mean to say? Like Matt pointed out, a lot of MA's have Gwai ma.
And I'm not trying to fight with you here, I am really trying to understand the point and have a conversation.

Jonathan

Liddel

01-24-2008, 01:37 AM

Liddel
if you dislike that book so much that my KF brother bought for you... show some class and pass it on to someone else.

Guy, this is a prime example of your attitude towards this forum....

You've taken offence to what ive said and its offended you to the point of seeing something thats not there....basically the state of this entire thread LOL. :o

Take a breath, relax...

I NEVER posted my POV positive or otherwise towards the book. I only said there are no easy answers from you guys, which IMO is shown in the book.

I read it cover to cover, even got passed the negitive assumptions of my own lineage of VT, written within.:eek: which i found were well off base.

Do i care ?... No. Should you ? No. Chill out mate.

I give Dave props for sending me a copy, but that dont give you 200 bucks for him passing 'GO'....

No wonder you do Kung Fu, guy looks at you wrong and your ready to roll.... just like this thread with a simple question that you've turned into a "war of words".

If a guy baits you (or thats how you percieve it) walk away....in life and on the forum.

DREW

JPinAZ

01-24-2008, 01:39 AM

LOL, you mean like "no bait and switch, honest question..." etc :p

I thought I was pretty clear that this wasn't my intention, but you can read into it whatever you want.

It sounded to me like the poster of the Ryan Kennedy clip might have thought it worthwhile pointing out that the section existed in TWC's form. After that, in the absence of answers, we had a discussion amongst various TWCers about the history of that section in TWC and who learned it when. Probably only interesting to TWCer's, but some discussions are like that. AS a TWCer, I found it interesting. And civil, up to that point.

Fine, but there was a comparison made and was just curious why (touched on this in the previous post to Phil).
No big deal - I have no problem with the discussion regarding TWC or anything else. But thanks for the clarification.

If you, osprey and $5 Tony can see sinister overtones in that, you need therapy.

We each stand on our own. We each have our own thoughts/idea/etc just like you do. Please don't group us together - I am sure you wouldn't like it if I grouped you and other TWC people together. I bet you have your own thoughts and ways of thinking that differenciate you from them.

Besides, I didn't say anyting about 'sinister overtones'. It is quite clear from John's latest few post, it is clear he pretty much dislikes the HFY lineage and it's members. Which is fine, each person can make up his own mind and is entitled to thier own feelings. But now I would ask, I can understnad a little of why someone from HFY would be hesitant to engage him in conversation if this is how he feels (which he probably isn't interested in anyway)?
Disregarding the fact htat the initial post was a bit off, demanding, presumptious, etc.

If you guys didn't jump all over anyone that posts anything + or -, about HFY, people would probably ignore and forget you. Perhaps this animosity comes out of fear of fading into irrelevance?

I was just trying to have a conversation - am I part of this 'you guys'?

anerlich

01-24-2008, 02:22 AM

I was just trying to have a conversation - am I part of this 'you guys'?

I guess that's a fair call. I made the mistake of assuming you had the same attitudes that Tony and osprey displayed. They apparently made that mistake about all non-HFY posters.

I thought I was pretty clear that this wasn't my intention, but you can read into it whatever you want.

I can accept that, though then Tony and osprey would have to ask why they couldn't grant John C the same courtesy when he went to pains to make his intentions clear.

Please don't group us together - I am sure you wouldn't like it if I grouped you and other TWC people together. I bet you have your own thoughts and ways of thinking that differenciate you from them.

Fair enough. AS I said before you sound reasonable. Tony and osprey, viewed as individuals, both sound like hypervigilant obsessive shadowjumpers.

drleungjohn

01-24-2008, 02:23 AM

ok-one more time-and then I am done here with this-it is way too much energy and no positive direction or result-

-Based on History on this Board-anything HFY related turns into a flame war and ****ing contest
-Based on History of participants-it is hard to have a decent discussion on HFY related anything before it goes bad

So how to avoid this and still find out-ask a question or not-if you choose not-then you get no answer-if you ask a question and try and create a scenario where there can be no discussion-and no ****ing contest-you might have a chance--

So how do you phrase it-and who is doing the asking-and in my opinion-just posting a question like this
HFY Question-does HFY have a Gwai Ma in their Biu Jee? Is way too opened and can be construed as questionable then how I wrote it-to quell any discussion,bs,supposition-etc-

Now-

Yes- Jonathan you don't know me so here it is-I dislike wanna be tough guys,wanna be gangsters and wanna be triad members-did I include you-no.
I have seen my share of wanna be warm up suits and chains-and when they start shooting their mouths off in public-usually somebody who is a real somebody just punches them in the face and walks out

History here shows knee jerk reactions,secrecy,come see for yourself marketing,flowery terminology to separate not bring together and one lineages oral history as fact -does not promote brotherhood either-
And for the record-I don't believe the Leung Bik story as well--

Never have I been disrespectful to Gee sifu,or HFY lineage.Educated man,well educated martial artist who can do what he says from what I have seen-In Ohio,in Arizona and in New Jersey- in how he teaches and explains himself-and in the few conversations I have had with him over lunches,informal talks in between,etc-

So where is my low opinion of HFY lineage shown? If HFY oral history is fact then it does come from the triads-like Hung,Southern Praying Mantis and others.

But the Hung guys and SPM folks I know don't act like everything they do,including speaking to others, is some big secret that can't be explained and won't be shown unless you show up-and you would not have to worry about the public vs private version you are getting..

None of this in any or my words has anything to go with Gee sifu or HFY lineage

So that's it-it was simple question for my own knowledge.
Done.

Phil Redmond

01-24-2008, 06:02 AM

Sifu Phil,
I never said this was something bad. Nor did I intend to say that you ever said anything negative about HFY as far as I know. My point more-or-less was that no one from HFY even gave the answer prior to you posting a comparison. I believe it was M.r Punch being a smart a$$, and I pretty sure we all know he is not from HFY.

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? I don't know what lineage he's from. When I read his response I didn't know whether he was speaking from personal knowledge of if he was a HFY student. But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

IMO, each system should stand on thier own, as should they all. But all too often comparisons are being made and people are saying & drawing conclusions that they (HFY/TWC) are the same - and mostly without the necessary experience in BOTH systems to draw any conclusions.

People who don't know the inner workings of HFY all say that outwardly HFY looks more similar in form to TWC compared to mainstream YM Wing Chun. Now I know you say it isn't and I can't dispute that not knowing your system, but that doesn't change what people see. Most people are attracted to WC because of it's analytical practicality. So as long as HFY mantains a veil of secrecy there are going to be all sorts of speculations and conclusions.

Curious what you found 'interesting' and what made you draw a comparison by saying "TWC has that too" - what does this mean to say? Like Matt pointed out, a lot of MA's have Gwai ma.
And I'm not trying to fight with you here, I am really trying to understand the point and have a conversation.

Jonathan

Now the tables are turned. What are you saying about me? Are you trying to say that I had some sort of agenda because I find it interesting that two Wing Chun lineages have the Gwai Mah in their Biu Jee form? Ok, I'm just kidding. But see how I could have taken your statement? That's exactlty the kind of attitude the thread got from osprey3883 and canglong. The truth is that I'm interested in all Wing Chun. Aren't you?

JPinAZ

01-24-2008, 07:28 AM

Hello Sifu Redmond,

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? I don't know what lineage he's from. When I read his response I didn't know whether he was speaking from personal knowledge of if he was a HFY student. But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.

Fair enough.

People who don't know the inner workings of HFY all say that outwardly HFY looks more similar in form to TWC compared to mainstream YM Wing Chun. Now I know you say it isn't and I can't dispute that not knowing your system, but that doesn't change what people see. Most people are attracted to WC because of it's analytical practicality. So as long as HFY mantains a veil of secrecy there are going to be all sorts of speculations and conclusions.

I understand what you are saying here, and I can agree.
I also can see the similarities as well when I see pictures or videos of TWC and compare to HFY. And I also agree, they look even more similar when compared to YM WC. My point is more towards the fact that people make final decisions about the systems being 'the same system' when some don't even have one minute personal experience in one of the systems. (I could use victor as an example here - nothing personal toward him. His thoughts are well known, even proven on this thread) This type of thinking is rediculous IMO. And I'm not saying you are one of these people.

What I do find interesting is that one never hears this same thing from HFY people. I can see similarities, but I also see several differences - and that's just surface level! I am not making judgement nor saying one is better than the other (I only have exp. in HFY). But it is suprising that people outside of HFY want to say that HFY & TWC are the same.. Why not just say that the systems look similar on the surface, but until someone experiences both somewhat in-depth, how do we really know. Isn't it possible that past surface-level, they are indeed very different? But everyone is free to think as they wish.
Hah, guess I'm just rambling.

Now the tables are turned. What are you saying about me? Are you trying to say that I had some sort of agenda because I find it interesting that two Wing Chun lineages have the Gwai Mah in their Biu Jee form? Ok, I'm just kidding. But see how I could have taken your statement? That's exactlty the kind of attitude the thread got from osprey3883 and canglong. The truth is that I'm interested in all Wing Chun. Aren't you?

fair enough. And sure, I'm interested in all of WC. I wouldn't mind spending some time with someone that knows TWC to see similarities/differences between the systems myself. Until any of us do that, I don't see how it's fair to draw conclusions.

Regards,

Jonathan

Mr Punch

01-24-2008, 07:30 AM

You assumed that we all know that Mr Punch isn't from HFY? ... But now I'll presume that he isn't based on your comments.LOL, or you could ask me...! But even you Phil, seem to be buying into the net circus here!

Well, sorry, yeah, I was being a smartarse. Why? Because the question had been around for a couple of days and one guy had answered (and yet not). Now, regardless of John's motives a yes or no answer would've ended this craziness right here. No negativity towards HFY, no negativity towards TWC, no probs, just a straight answer. But as soon as I saw the question it was inevitable that it would turn into this load of bullsh!t.

Sooo, I just thought I'd get the ball rolling with an honest answer (I thought I'd read about HFY having gwai ma somewhere - though TBH, I just plumped for any old answer): to provoke anybody who knew into giving the actual answer.

Now, here's the thing: as JPinAZ pointed out, a lot of people know I'm not HFY, and some may remember that I've baited them before. Why? Because it's funny!

I have no animosity whatsoever for HFY. I didn't know anything about them at all until I joined this forum. Contrary to what some seem to believe, not everybody's sifu's suckle them on the wing chun teat of 'HFY is crap' or 'TWC is nonsense' or whatever: my sifu steadfastly refused to say anything about any other lineages. Not like most the people on this board who say they don't but they do. He wouldn't. He always said, "Please go and try other lines," and hgave us dates of seminars from time to time with different folk (Maybe, since he never cared for the net, just maybe he'd never heard of HFY). Being a normal human and not into MA politics or any of this BS, this (going to different seminars, rolling/sparring with different people) was perfectly normal to me until I came online and discovered that you're all nucking futs!

Ever since I came to this forum every time anything about HFY was mentioned, the HFY people (Tony is probably the biggest culprit) go NUTS! I mean, the paranoia, the accusations, the crazed refusal to answer any question straight...! And I still really really honestly don't understand it. But it is still hilarious! :D

I'd like to know what HFY's about. I'd be interested to know the differences between it and some other lines. But I'm never going to know: all I've worked out so far is that most HFYers seem to have no idea of conventional human norms of behaviour, like presenting themselves, like conversation, like humour; that some people think HFY and TWC are similar and that this is a major insult to the Shaolin Temple and its cat; and that extrapolating from that, HFY kung fu is kind of like Woody Allen directing Jackie Chan doing the Ministry of Silly Walks!

Of course, once again, I'm joking. My humour is not to everyone's taste I know, and I know I'm going to get accused of being immature or some such. I still don't care: compared to this farce, I'm all growed up.

Incidentally, I still don't really know about the superficial similarities between HFY and TWC: I don't usually watch forms from other lines other than in a really cursory manner and I usually do it just to see, 'Ahh, OK, so some people do it like this', and then often I don't botehr to remember the details of which line it was. There's no point watching froms with an eye to any deeper conclusion if you don't have any instruction available in that style. I'd prefer to read what people with experience of what they're talking about write online than watching unrelated forms... but maybe that's just me.

I'd still love to find out more about any wing chun, meet any wing chun people (or any other art for that matter). And I still don't diss anyone seriously unless I've met them or unless they've really put up some bull**** (like saying 'This is boxing' when it isn't... or 'This is fighting' when it's chi sao...).

But for now, the answer to this thread is

Yes, they do.

Lock please!

duende

01-24-2008, 04:53 PM

So how to avoid this and still find out-ask a question or not-if you choose not-then you get no answer-if you ask a question and try and create a scenario where there can be no discussion-and no ****ing contest-you might have a chance--

So how do you phrase it-and who is doing the asking-and in my opinion-just posting a question like this
HFY Question-does HFY have a Gwai Ma in their Biu Jee? Is way too opened and can be construed as questionable then how I wrote it-to quell any discussion,bs,supposition-etc-

Simple John... cut out your own BS and do the math.

You can't proclaim us as being the same thing as TWC, and then ask us about our Biu Jee form.

By your own assessment you already have the answer.

So where is my low opinion of HFY lineage shown? If HFY oral history is fact then it does come from the triads-like Hung,Southern Praying Mantis and others.

But the Hung guys and SPM folks I know don't act like everything they do,including speaking to others, is some big secret that can't be explained and won't be shown unless you show up-and you would not have to worry about the public vs private version you are getting..

To be brief...

The Secret Societies of the time during the boxer rebellions and earlier, and the Triads of today are not the same thing. While the Triads did form later out of some secret societies... the initial founding had nothing to do with gangsters and criminal behavior. It was about fighting and imposed government rule by the Manchurians.

But regardless, this has nothing to do with why we would keep some things private.

If you want to learn HFY, then you have to put in the time and energy and EARN IT. It's that simple. However, we do not do seminar certifications.

This is because Kung Fu takes years to learn. With every new layer passed on, the mind must grasp the knowledge and the body must develop it's physical expression. What we in HFY refer to as Body Karma. This simply is not possible via seminars.

As for your other statements.... I'm just going to let them go for now.

But let's be clear here, you are seriously fooling yourself if you think you are a friend to the HFY lineage.

And finally...

Once again..

TWC and HFY are not the same thing. We may share a few general shapes that look similar on the surface, but once you have an understanding of HFY Sup Ming Dim and Tin Yan Dei Body awareness, then it's obvious that they are NOT the same.

We are close cousins and somewhere, somehow in the past our lineage's paths crossed. But TWC and HFY do not share the same system's core concepts and expression.

As I said before... any one of my beginner students can easily see the difference between TWC body mechanics and HFY System expression.

You can not see the difference because your understanding of HFY is superficial at best.

Name drop all you want, but you're kidding yourself if your think otherwise.

couch

01-24-2008, 05:02 PM

We are close cousins and somewhere, somehow in the past our lineage's paths crossed. But TWC and HFY do not share the same system's core concepts and expression.

As I said before... any one of my beginner students can easily see the difference between TWC body mechanics and HFY System expression.

You can not see the difference because your understanding of HFY is superficial at best.

Name drop all you want, but your kidding yourself if your think otherwise.

I think it's the same. End of discussion. Stop ripping off TWC's stuff.

;),
Kenton Sefcik

UKBBC

01-24-2008, 06:29 PM

It is accepted that the variations in interpretations of Wing Chun is part and parcel of Yip Man lineages, despite having common core forms and principles.

I fail to see why people can't accept that HFY and TWC can have different interpretations, even if they once had a common ancestor and share common core forms.

osprey3883

01-24-2008, 07:19 PM

Hello,
John (drluengjohn) I took your question based on some of your previous assertions about the HFY and TWC connection. We all know discussions about this in the past have had interesting undertones, and I assumed the same thing may be present in this disussion as well, especially with people not associated with HFY talking about what it does or does not have.

I fail to see why people can't accept that HFY and TWC can have different interpretations, even if they once had a common ancestor and share common core forms.

This is a great way to address this, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. IMO WC VT Weng Chun etc all come from the same source if you go back far enough. Unfortunately much of it was undocumented, so IMO all we can do is share our oral histories and give each other room to live.

Matt

KPM

01-24-2008, 10:09 PM

all we can do is share our oral histories and give each other room to live.

Matt

No. That's not all we can do! We can also compare and contrast content, strategies and tactics. But with the HFY family being so secretive and tight-lipped, that becomes very difficult to do!

horserider

01-24-2008, 10:35 PM

duende

01-25-2008, 01:03 AM

Why not call it as it is and be done with it.

HFY= TWC + a little chris chan wc + elements of Fu Family wrapped in a Shaolin pastry sprinkled with some buddism and baked in a scientology like oven. Battle arrays etc from 18th century shaolin temple, Please!

No one would care UKBBC if all they claimed was a different interpretation of a common twc- hfy ancestor. However they claim far,far more than that . Read their book or the years of postings they have made.

Our oral history goes back to the Shaolin temple. Yes this is true. Many other WC lineages also share this common ancestry.

As for Battle arrays. Are you naive enough to think that breaking up the rules of engagement into timeframes is a modern concept???

Or are you the type of WC'r who expects your opponent in a fight to immediately start from a Chi Sau position???

In HFY we have Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu and Chi Sau. All have certain tools and individual rolling platforms that deal with different ranges of combat and facings... Or TIMEFRAMES. Unlike strictly Chi Sau which just deals with close range and primarily utilizes Tan, Bong, Fook.

With all due respect, TWC has neither Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau.

FWIW, none of my friends who study under GM Chan, do anything remotely similar to HFY. Do they care that we are different?? No. They just want to be able to fight!

What do you really care about Horserider?? That we have a book out and you don't?? That we have made more posts on KFO then you???

I suggest you get over it.

JPinAZ

01-25-2008, 01:10 AM

osprey3883

01-25-2008, 01:26 AM

Horserider,
HFY= TWC + a little chris chan wc + elements of Fu Family wrapped in a Shaolin pastry sprinkled with some buddism and baked in a scientology like oven. Battle arrays etc from 18th century shaolin temple, Please!

Interesting theory, but why the hell would GM Gee come up with some new systems when he already has an extensive background in Wu Tang? Anyone who has spent any time with GM Gee would definitely see the above statement as a joke.

As a total side note I have studied MA in a chinese "MMA" environment in my past and the HFY system IMO is way too cohesive to be mixed and matched from GM Gee's background. Just my 2 cents.

Matt

Phil Redmond

01-25-2008, 01:31 AM

. . . . With all due respect, TWC has neither Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau. . . . .

Please explain Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau. Since you don't know the inner workings of TWC like I do I can tell you whether or not we have the same things under a different terminology.

duende

01-25-2008, 03:21 AM

Please explain Chi Kiu or Kiu Sau. Since you don't know the inner workings of TWC like I do I can tell you whether or not we have the same things under a different terminology.

Phil,

At work so I will have to make my reply short.

I'm sure you are aware of the importance of bridging at all ranges. In my post to Horserider, I was NOT trying to imply that TWC is "lacking" in this area, only to further demonstrate that how our perspective systems understand and train these tactics are unique unto themselves.

In my meetings with TWC Sifu's, I have yet to see any of them use the same techniques, concepts or drills with regards to HFY Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu. On the flipside, I've no doubt that TWC also utilizes concepts and principles just as well that HFY doesn't.

I'll answer your question better, when I get free from work.

Phil Redmond

01-25-2008, 04:49 AM

Phil,

At work so I will have to make my reply short.

I'm sure you are aware of the importance of bridging at all ranges. In my post to Horserider, I was NOT trying to imply that TWC is "lacking" in this area, only to further demonstrate that how our perspective systems understand and train these tactics are unique unto themselves.

In my meetings with TWC Sifu's, I have yet to see any of them use the same techniques, concepts or drills with regards to HFY Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu. On the flipside, I've no doubt that TWC also utilizes concepts and principles just as well that HFY doesn't.

I'll answer your question better, when I get free from work.

Thanks, I'll be looking for your reply. Maybe we can exchange clips by email to see the differences in bridging drills/concepts.

duende

01-25-2008, 10:50 AM

To Phil Redmond and fellow WC'ers,

First off let me just say that in my descriptions that follow I'm not trying to one up any other lineage. I don't care for that kind of politics and ego nonsense.

I am just trying to share in a positive neutral way with you what I've both learned in HFY and experienced having met with Sifu's and students from many other WC families. And like many of my HFY brothers, I didn't start my WC journey in HFYWC, but in YMWC.

Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu along with what we in HFY sometimes refer to as "Tan Bong Fook" Chi Sau all three together make up HFY Chi Sau.

It is not a "sensitivity/reaction" drill like other WC lineages, although of course this is part of it. To put it very simply, Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu, and Chi Sau all represent different ranges of combat. Another words.. In HFY Chi Sau is used for fighting. But it is much more complicated then that, as there is different body mechanics and tools that must be learned to fully express each one properly.

Just like you all have Chi Sau and use drills such as poon sau and tools such as Tan Bong and Fook to practice what is generally known as Chi Sau. So does HFY have rolling platforms, drills and tools that are specific to Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu.

But the notion of Kiu Sau/Chi Kiu is not unique to HFY. Many other Southern KF systems also employ Kiu Sau. Most notably Southern Praying mantis and Hung Gar. You can find variations of it in most systems that trace their history back to Southern Shaolin temple, because Kiu Sau is a gift from the knowledge of our Shaolin ancestors.

But somehow during around 1850 during the time of the WC Opera troops, Kiu Sau started fading away, Maybe it didn't translate good on boats I don't know... but now you have no Kiu Sau at all in most modern day WC.

All you have is the close-range time frame... what is now generally considered Chi Sau. I've said this before, and I'll say it again here. Chi Sau without Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu is like having an old 3 speed standard transmission in your car with out any first or second gear. Just third gear.. So that when you try to start it up and use it... you just stall out.

THIS is why most WC out in the public today think that Chi Sau is not for fighting, and only a "sensitivity drill"

Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu provide the tools to bridge and "close the gap" at longer ranges and different angles of facing. They also provide a strong Shaolin foundation of grappling and Chi Na tools based on TIN YAN DEI body structure for what we refer to as "momentary control". As opposed to Jiu Jitsu and wrestling that utilizes "fully-committed control".

That is the best that I can describe Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu. Many of our members who came from other systems will tell you the same thing... especially the ex-Sifu's.

They will all tell you that Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu understanding can not be written in words. And instead must be experienced first hand through physical interaction.

That's it for now.

Best,

Alex

LoneTiger108

01-25-2008, 12:07 PM

...because Kiu Sau is a gift from the knowledge of our Shaolin ancestors.

But somehow during around 1850 during the time of the WC Opera troops, Kiu Sau started fading away, Maybe it didn't translate good on boats I don't know... but now you have no Kiu Sau at all in most modern day WC.

Alex, I do love these generalised comments that ultimately insult many of the Wing Chun family. What do you know about 'all' of the Wing Chun families?

Actually, a better question for you is, what do you 'think' Chum Kiu is?

It's all great to find another way of learning, I commend people that strive for improvement, but I feel that the majority of practitioners that switch from WC to other 'ways' tend to not have a firm understanding of WC in the first place. This comment from you says exactly that I'm afraid!

No offence to you intended, but this thread is in need of a reality check imo...

anerlich

01-25-2008, 01:30 PM

They also provide a strong Shaolin foundation of grappling and Chi Na tools based on TIN YAN DEI body structure for what we refer to as "momentary control". As opposed to Jiu Jitsu and wrestling that utilizes "fully-committed control".

LOL at this "analysis" of Jiu Jitsu.

First off let me just say that in my descriptions that follow I'm not trying to one up any other lineage. I don't care for that kind of politics and ego nonsense.

But somehow you manage to do it anyway. Statements like that above trivialise other arts. There are a wide variety of types and degrees of control used in Jiu Jitsu, and they differ further when you treat it as JJ used in MMA. This sort of sweeping statement with generalisations about things your statements show you know zip about, coupled with hifalutin jargon and neologisms, erode your credibility.

Many of our members who came from other systems will tell you the same thing... especially the ex-Sifu's.

I'm sure the ex-Sifus are an illustrious bunch :rolleyes:

KPM

01-25-2008, 05:25 PM

And people wonder why every time there is a thread that involves HFY it tends to go downhill....... And so many people blame it on the members of HFY. Such a joke.

This thread went downhill long before horserider made his contribution. And it was taken in that direction by the HFY members that posted.

Phil Redmond

01-25-2008, 05:45 PM

duende

01-25-2008, 07:14 PM

LOL at this "analysis" of Jiu Jitsu.

But somehow you manage to do it anyway. Statements like that above trivialise other arts. There are a wide variety of types and degrees of control used in Jiu Jitsu, and they differ further when you treat it as JJ used in MMA. This sort of sweeping statement with generalisations about things your statements show you know zip about, coupled with hifalutin jargon and neologisms, erode your credibility.

I'm sure the ex-Sifus are an illustrious bunch :rolleyes:

Hey Anerlich,

I think your blowing what I wrote out of proportion, because I definitely wasn't trying to trivialize anything. I have way too much respect for ALL versions of WC, other MA's and certainly Jiu Jitsu.

My usage of the phrase "fully committed control" was not trying to pigeon hole Jiu jitsu or any other grappling art, but merely describe one way it which it is different then the grappling techniques found in kiu sau. No doubt there is much much more to the art.

For instance if you grab some one with your wrist... then that arm is committed for the duration of the grab. If you go to the ground, you are committed to the ground. Not dissing anything.. just making an observation.

duende

01-25-2008, 07:19 PM

Alex, whenever you make contact with an opponents' limb you've created a bridge. Other WC systems have bridging drills other than chi sau. In TWC we have cross arm and parallel arm drills both predetermined and random. We don't just do the standard chi sau. There are only so many things you can do when you make contact. I just can't believe that only one system knows how to deal with a bridge. I'd be willing to make a clip of some of our Kiu drills and I'd like to see how different yours are.
Phil

No doubt, all WC has bridges and make good use of them. I've met many a skilled Sifu in my day from other WCs. That's not my point however. My point is that I've yet to find another WC system that do it with the same leverage, body mechanics and range priority awareness that I've experienced in HFY.

Best

horserider

01-25-2008, 07:28 PM

Ah Kui Sau. When HFY came out there was no talk of Kui Sau not one word. Nothing in Murphy right up for complete wing chun. Nothing at any of the early GRandmaster Gee workshops nothing on any forums or message boards not a peep about Kui Sau lots of other stuff but not that. Then miracle happens Andreas Hoffman does Ohio seminar and teaches about Weng Chun Kui Sau . Then guess what. Hard to believe , HFY starts talking about they have Kui Sau too so this proves we are old from shaolin like Weng Chun story.

Let's see before Andreas no Kui Sau after Andreas Kui Sau. Just another HFY coincidence I am sure

Chango

01-25-2008, 08:05 PM

Alex,
your post gave great explination. Some people on here seem to think your intentions are to say HFY has etc.... and this system doesn't. But I think those who read your words with out prejudice can see your point.

If I could I would like to maybe change the tone of this thread a bit. I think we all would benifit from a perspective that we are all brothers in terms of Chinese martial arts and even more so wing chun.

So with that being said we can say that in HFY Chi Kiu and Kiu sau have a very specific meaning in HFY. This understanding in HFY aids in identifying a dealing with very specific time frames. This is not to say that other WC families do not have things that help them to do this. I'm simply saying this is the HFY method.

As a Ving Tsun Museum committee member, I personally have seen and met and trained with many different WC Grand masters and lineage representatives. Of those I have met only one system that shared kiu sau as a method. However they approached kiu sau from a very different perspective and they did not use Chi kiu to address this particular time frame. I personally spend much time appreciating the differences but more so the simularities. I guess this is my nature as I'm a Glass half full type of person LOL!

I think we all must all keep in mind that all lineages and families have something to bring the table here. We must not knit pick so much if we are going to move to a place where we can share the gifts we all have from our Sifu's and ancestors. We all here are train really hard to develope our craft so it should be understood and kept in mind while posting. I think this would bring this thread to a more positive light. :D

Phil Redmond

01-25-2008, 08:30 PM

. . . . As a Ving Tsun Museum committee member, I personally have seen and met and trained with many different WC Grand masters and lineage representatives. Of those I have met only one system that shared kiu sau as a method. . . .
The key word here is shared. Without us knowing what Kiu Sau is to HFY. You can't say who has it or not. Just like I can't say what HFY has or doesn't have. Not everything is shared in a seminar. And I'm implying the HFY/TWC controversey. I'm just talking from a martial arts perspective.

Chango

01-25-2008, 09:26 PM

Hello Phil,
It's always a pleasure talking with you. I think your point is valid. I personally do not like to say one system has or doesn't have. So let me begin there, The term kiu sau roughly translates to bridging arm. However in many southern Shaolin it generally refers to skills developed to train from the elbow to the wrist. This can be anything from conditioning them or sensitivity etc....

In HFY kiu sau represents a development of such skills but it's approach identifies it as a specific time frame. From my point of view this only stands to reason as in HFY maxium efficiency of time, space, and energy is the goal and signature. The formula allows us to Q check if we are maintaining this signature. So other approaches to kiu sau in other arts should of course reflect their signature.

I'm at work I'm out of time gotta go. sorry about the incomplete thought I'll get back with you later.

Chango

anerlich

01-26-2008, 06:04 AM

I think your blowing what I wrote out of proportion, because I definitely wasn't trying to trivialize anything. I have way too much respect for ALL versions of WC, other MA's and certainly Jiu Jitsu.

OK, Fair enough. I apologise for overracting, and appreciate your not doing the same.

That said, I don't buy the analogy. You can take the opponent to the ground and not be fully committed.

"Fully committed" might mean something different in HFY to what it does to the rest of us, and we might have other ways to reach the goals of Kiu Sau / Chi Kiu, but...

If your group have your private terminologies and other people misconstrue them, that isn't the other person's fault and the onus is not on them to decode the meaning of what you are saying.

Some people on here seem to think your intentions are to say HFY has etc.... and this system doesn't.

Did we ever establish whether or not HFY's Bil Jee has a Gwai Ma section?

duende

01-26-2008, 11:16 AM

OK, Fair enough. I apologise for overracting, and appreciate your not doing the same.

That said, I don't buy the analogy. You can take the opponent to the ground and not be fully committed.

"Fully committed" might mean something different in HFY to what it does to the rest of us, and we might have other ways to reach the goals of Kiu Sau / Chi Kiu, but...

If your group have your private terminologies and other people misconstrue them, that isn't the other person's fault and the onus is not on them to decode the meaning of what you are saying.

Did we ever establish whether or not HFY's Bil Jee has a Gwai Ma section?

No need to apologize... we're cool. ;) And I'm sure you know what you're talking about in regards to Jiu Jitsu etc.

FWIW, I understand people here might have a difficult time with HFY terminologies. But more importantly, people need understand that it takes actual experience to really comprehend what I'm talking about in regards to HFY Kiu Sau/Chi Kiu.

The common ground here of course is "Tan-Bong-Fook" Chi Sau. And as Phil mentioned earlier it does have many extensive drills such as crossing arm and parrallel.. but that is not what I'm referring to in Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu.

That is because in HFY, Tan-Bong-Fook Chi Sau exists in what we would call San Sau (free form) timeframe, as it relies heavily on a flowing energy/control in close range.

On the contrary HFY Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu is based on what we call system body mechanics and reference point energy. This is because these reference points provide a strong structure in space and can allow bridging at greater ranges.

There... I tried my best to not use HFY "private terminology". :p ;)

In regards to Gwai Ma in our Biu Jee... I didn't answer the question, because I felt it was a stupid question to begin with. It's like asking someone if they use their teeth when they bite.

Also though... while I'm all for discussing certain things here online. There is also much that I will NOT discuss because it is simply not for the general public.

If anyone truly wants to learn the info, they have to earn it by actually taking the time to learn our system.

anerlich

01-26-2008, 01:56 PM

There... I tried my best to not use HFY "private terminology".

You failed, smileys or no.

Also though... while I'm all for discussing certain things here online. There is also much that I will NOT discuss because it is simply not for the general public.

If anyone truly wants to learn the info, they have to earn it by actually taking the time to learn our system.

I'm afraid this comes across as a load of condescending crap. ducking the direct questions indicates you don't actually HAVE any info worth sharing.

We must not knit pick so much if we are going to move to a place where we can share the gifts we all have from our Sifu's and ancestors.

Well, so much for that pompous bullsh1t, eh Chango? BTW, I have no interest in being anyone here's brother, thanks all the same.

KPM

01-26-2008, 04:49 PM

In regards to Gwai Ma in our Biu Jee... I didn't answer the question, because I felt it was a stupid question to begin with. It's like asking someone if they use their teeth when they bite.

Also though... while I'm all for discussing certain things here online. There is also much that I will NOT discuss because it is simply not for the general public.

If anyone truly wants to learn the info, they have to earn it by actually taking the time to learn our system.

What another load of bull! What's so stupid about that question? Your analogy is what is so stupid! Teeth when you bite? That implies that Gwai Ma should be naturally a part of everyone's Bui Gee just as teeth are naturally a part of everyone's mouth. My Biu Gee doesn't have Gwai Ma. Let's see, I've seen Biu Gee from many YM lineages....WSL, Yip Chun, Leung Ting, Augustine Fong....none had Gwai Ma. So are you saying that HFY has Gwai Ma in Biu Gee or not? Its not a stupid question. Its a perfectly valid question. Why is it such a big secret? Are you afraid of comparisons with other WCK systems? The best way to understand each other short of directly studying the other's system (which is not always practical or possible) is to compare and contrast what we do...including how we do our forms. So why all this ridiculous secrecy???? :confused:

Phil Redmond

01-26-2008, 07:28 PM

Hazards of secrecy
Excessive secrecy is often cited as a source of much human conflict. One may have to lie in order to hold a secret, which might lead to psychological repercussions. The alternative, declining to answer when asked something, may suggest the answer and may therefore not always be suitable for keeping a secret. Also, the other may insist that one answers the question. Nearly 2500 years ago, Sophocles wrote, "Do nothing secretly; for Time sees and hears all things, and discloses all." Around the same time, Gautama Siddhartha, the Buddha, once said "Three things cannot long stay hidden: the sun, the moon and the truth".

sihing

01-26-2008, 08:20 PM

What another load of bull! What's so stupid about that question? Your analogy is what is so stupid! Teeth when you bite? That implies that Gwai Ma should be naturally a part of everyone's Bui Gee just as teeth are naturally a part of everyone's mouth. My Biu Gee doesn't have Gwai Ma. Let's see, I've seen Biu Gee from many YM lineages....WSL, Yip Chun, Leung Ting, Augustine Fong....none had Gwai Ma. So are you saying that HFY has Gwai Ma in Biu Gee or not? Its not a stupid question. Its a perfectly valid question. Why is it such a big secret? Are you afraid of comparisons with other WCK systems? The best way to understand each other short of directly studying the other's system (which is not always practical or possible) is to compare and contrast what we do...including how we do our forms. So why all this ridiculous secrecy???? :confused:

I have to agree with Keith here, the question was not a stupid one, and was prefaced with the statement that no trouble was intended by asking the question. I for one have never met Dr John C, but from what I have heard he is a stand up guy. The problem began when some HFY posters read something into it, that IMO was not there. I've always stayed neutral when it came to HFY vs other WC lineages, as they have always treated me well, but sometimes the behaviour exibited by "Some" of the people involved in that group, seems a bit extremist if you ask me. Yes I can understand the need to have people that are curious about your art actually come down to experience it in person, as I too believe this is the only way to truly understand something like Wing Chun, but all the secrecy and tall tales of this or that legend, combined with almost worship/god like treatment towards your GM leader, and the way some in the HFY group treat others that disagree with them, it quite frankly puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'm so happy I am involved with people that say, James you are a free man, do what you want with the information provided, we are always here to support you:)

James

duende

01-26-2008, 10:44 PM

I'm afraid this comes across as a load of condescending crap. ducking the direct questions indicates you don't actually HAVE any info worth sharing.

Condescending crap? I was totally up front with you and left out all the original Chinese terms in order for use to communicate better, and this is what I get??

Nice!

So if someone wants more info and you refuse them... then they accuse you of not knowing.

Talk about bait and switch... I had believed you Anerlich were above this kind of behavior.

Whatever... this 5hit is silly. Anyone who has ever visited us (seminars or not) has only been treated kindly and had a great exchange of knowledge. The internet is not a substitute for person to person hands on interaction and sharing.

duende

01-26-2008, 10:56 PM

What another load of bull! What's so stupid about that question? Your analogy is what is so stupid! Teeth when you bite? That implies that Gwai Ma should be naturally a part of everyone's Bui Gee just as teeth are naturally a part of everyone's mouth. My Biu Gee doesn't have Gwai Ma. Let's see, I've seen Biu Gee from many YM lineages....WSL, Yip Chun, Leung Ting, Augustine Fong....none had Gwai Ma. So are you saying that HFY has Gwai Ma in Biu Gee or not? Its not a stupid question. Its a perfectly valid question. Why is it such a big secret? Are you afraid of comparisons with other WCK systems? The best way to understand each other short of directly studying the other's system (which is not always practical or possible) is to compare and contrast what we do...including how we do our forms. So why all this ridiculous secrecy???? :confused:

Keith,

So are you saying your WC does not employ any knee techniques (kneeling horse) in it's system? Are you saying you don't use your knees to strike, defend, check/subvert angles of attack???

It's a stupid question because beside your WC, knee's are used in MA's all over the fricking place.

It's a stupid question because it gives no background or basis for why it's being asked.

It's a stupid question because it comes from someone who has already made up their mind that he believes TWC and HFY are the same thing.

It's a stupid question because if he really gave a ****... he'd give one of our member's (who he is "on good terms with") a simple phone call, catch up, and avoid all this internet BS.

canglong

01-27-2008, 01:12 AM

KPM

01-27-2008, 02:42 AM

First you need to establish a degree of understanding "Gwai Ma" relative to the lineage that is describing the understanding to date no one else has been willing to do that. In a thread discussing "gwai ma" most people are just b*tching and moaning about the answer given instead of providing answers to questions when asked. Keith you seem to know how to run your mouth for everything but an answer. You say you don't have "gwai ma" in your own bui jee but yet we should believe you have a certain understanding of what "gwai ma" is for others. What is your understanding of "Gwai Ma" ?

Fair enough! No one has really clarified what we mean when we talk about "Gwai Ma" in the Biu Gee form. By "Gwai Ma" I mean the "hanging horse".... a pivoted stance in which the "back" leg is bent to the extent that it is only about 6 inches from the ground. This, BTW, is evidently what Phil Redmond understood John C. to be asking about because the clip he posted of the TWC Biu Gee form included this movement. So...defining "Gwai Ma" in this way....it is NOT a stupid question to ask whether this specific movement is found within the HFY Biu Gee form. I realize now that many of us have forgotten that the HFY family tends to define things in their own way and seem to always try to remain as vague as possible.

So lets clarify the original question once and for all.......Does the HFY Biu Gee form contain a kneeling position similar to the one that was demonstrated in that clip provided by Phil Redmond?

Wayfaring

01-27-2008, 07:02 AM

I have to agree with Keith here, the question was not a stupid one, and was prefaced with the statement that no trouble was intended by asking the question. I for one have never met Dr John C, but from what I have heard he is a stand up guy. The problem began when some HFY posters read something into it, that IMO was not there. I've always stayed neutral when it came to HFY vs other WC lineages, as they have always treated me well, but sometimes the behaviour exibited by "Some" of the people involved in that group, seems a bit extremist if you ask me. Yes I can understand the need to have people that are curious about your art actually come down to experience it in person, as I too believe this is the only way to truly understand something like Wing Chun, but all the secrecy and tall tales of this or that legend, combined with almost worship/god like treatment towards your GM leader, and the way some in the HFY group treat others that disagree with them, it quite frankly puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'm so happy I am involved with people that say, James you are a free man, do what you want with the information provided, we are always here to support you:)

James

James,

I was staying out of this one, but you're generally one of the usual suspects here that is a little more willing to look at all sides.

no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...

You think that starting out a question with an implied insinuation that there are usually tricks and bait and switch with questions directed at HFY members is stating that no trouble was intended by the question? Maybe they do things differently up north....

Now that part could be ignored, but it does sound like someone is walking around with a chip on their shoulder or something to prove. And I'm sure that's what set off some of the HFY folks, and for better or worse HFY students tend to stick together.

I personally don't think John C meant a whole lot of evil intent by the bait and switch comment, but was just making a flippant comment that probably got taken wrong. And with all the easy-going folks on this forum with their extremely tolerant nature, naturally everyone will let all that slide and not whip it up into a huge ordeal. Not!!!!

The secrecy of HFY is somewhat part of its culture - it was secretly taught until GM Garrett Gee decided to make it public. It is what it is. I haven't heard a lot of tall tales or legends so I can't comment on that. I don't worship GM Gee either, but he is an amazing dude if you ever meet him.

I haven't found anyone in HFY that doesn't tell me I'm a free man that can do whatever I want with the information provided.

If seeing people react to a negative statement on the internet and then band together to protect each other leaves a bad taste in your mouth, then I don't know what to tell you. But things certainly aren't what they seem.

Regarding the Gwai Ma question, I just don't think it's a simple yes or no. The forms simply exist to teach concepts and help the body learn and train them. At times things change in how they are performed depending on what is being emphasized at the moment, and where we are at in understanding it. Duende was trying to get at that I think.

I'm not going to say the question was stupid or had ill intent. However, by how it was phrased it placed the answer in a box. Yes or no, and no discussion necessary. Any discussion would be interpreted as "secrecy, bait and switch, or trciks". It's really not that simple. But I am not reading anything into the question - I really don't know John C at all.

Now, back to all the regularly scheduled bickering...

Wayfaring

01-27-2008, 07:09 AM

It's clearly the same system as TWC - there, I've said it again.

Certain differences around the edges - but basically the same exact system.

Period...and onto the next thread.

And all non-Italians look alike, right Victor? Therefore they are all the same. You don't actually need to get to know any of them.

If HFY and TWC are the same then why don't you or one of your masters know what Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu is and how they fit into the platform? That's like emphasized throughout the whole training in HFY.

I will say with my limited knowledge HFY and TWC look more alike on the surface than other families. But that's the extent I will speculate.

Wayfaring

01-27-2008, 07:21 AM

LOL at this "analysis" of Jiu Jitsu.

Hey anerlich I still do BJJ. I think the comparison stuff with tin yan dei is just saying that the emphasis is striking options and mobility rather than going for submissions.

sihing

01-27-2008, 07:43 AM

James,
The secrecy of HFY is somewhat part of its culture - it was secretly taught until GM Garrett Gee decided to make it public. It is what it is. I haven't heard a lot of tall tales or legends so I can't comment on that. I don't worship GM Gee either, but he is an amazing dude if you ever meet him.

Yes, I've read the MKF book, and understand the secret society/revolutionary outlook surrounding HFY. As a matter of fact, I've always had this outlook on Wing Chun history, as TWC has basically same the same story in their lineage. There are plenty of tall tales, buddhist rituals and such surrounding GM Gee if you look hard enough on the HFY forum, I've read them, so I know. The way some in the HFY clan kiss his a$$, it sure looks like worship to me. I'm not saying it is you in particular, but it is there. Now I'm sure GM Gee is a amazing guy in all aspects, there are plenty of amazing Martial Artists out there to meet and train with, that are also interesting people.

I haven't found anyone in HFY that doesn't tell me I'm a free man that can do whatever I want with the information provided.

Then please share some video of Chi sau, Chi Kiu, and Kiu Sau drills from HFY of yourself on Youtube, and then I will believe you:)

If seeing people react to a negative statement on the internet and then band together to protect each other leaves a bad taste in your mouth, then I don't know what to tell you. But things certainly aren't what they seem.

What was the negative statement made by the initial post by Dr John? He asked a question, a few other from outside HFY answered, and then the 5hit hit the fan. The over reaction by some from the HFY clan left a bad taste in my mouth, and from what I've read on this thread, it has done the same for a few others.

Regarding the Gwai Ma question, I just don't think it's a simple yes or no. The forms simply exist to teach concepts and help the body learn and train them. At times things change in how they are performed depending on what is being emphasized at the moment, and where we are at in understanding it. Duende was trying to get at that I think.

It is a simple yes or no question. In TWC, I learned a section of the Bui Jee form that wasn't taught publicly that contains what I understand to be Gwai Ma, so yes it is in TWC. Simple, yes or no. If you wanted discussion, I'm sure Dr. John would have provided some for you.

I'm not going to say the question was stupid or had ill intent. However, by how it was phrased it placed the answer in a box. Yes or no, and no discussion necessary. Any discussion would be interpreted as "secrecy, bait and switch, or trciks". It's really not that simple. But I am not reading anything into the question - I really don't know John C at all.

Now, back to all the regularly scheduled bickering...

James........

KPM

01-27-2008, 04:34 PM

---I'm not James but.......

no tricks or bait and switch-black and white-yes or no please...

You think that starting out a question with an implied insinuation that there are usually tricks and bait and switch with questions directed at HFY members is stating that no trouble was intended by the question? Maybe they do things differently up north....

---Maybe they do! They certainly do down south! Because that's certainly how I read John C's intent. He started his question in that fashion exactly because he knew the HFY guys would think that there was "tricks or bait and switch" involved. He was trying to AVOID trouble by making that statement. Evidently it didn't work! Its seems pretty clear now that it was a "no win" situation. Regardless of how sincere his question was or how he asked the question the HFY family is going to assume the worst.

Now that part could be ignored, but it does sound like someone is walking around with a chip on their shoulder or something to prove.

---Exactly! Every one of the HFY guys that responded negatively!!!! :eek:

I personally don't think John C meant a whole lot of evil intent by the bait and switch comment, but was just making a flippant comment that probably got taken wrong.

---I also don't think John had any evil intent. I don't think his comment was flippant. And it most definitely got taken wrong!!

I haven't found anyone in HFY that doesn't tell me I'm a free man that can do whatever I want with the information provided.

---But you just said that secrecy was part of the HFY culture. Are you truly free to talk about anything you've learned of HFY publically?

Regarding the Gwai Ma question, I just don't think it's a simple yes or no. The forms simply exist to teach concepts and help the body learn and train them.

---Here we go with the vague generalities again. Is that part of the "HFY culture"? Its really a very simple question! Does the HFY Biu Gee form contain a specific motion that is similar to that shown in Phil's clip of the TWC Bui Gee form...the "hanging horse" position with one knee approximately 6 inches from the ground? Since you are a "free man that can do whatever I want with the information provided", you should be able to give us a straight-forward "yes" or "no" answer. If you then want to discuss or qualify that answer, then fine. I for one would be glad to carry on the conversation.

Wayfaring

01-27-2008, 05:22 PM

Yes, I've read the MKF book, and understand the secret society/revolutionary outlook surrounding HFY. As a matter of fact, I've always had this outlook on Wing Chun history, as TWC has basically same the same story in their lineage. There are plenty of tall tales, buddhist rituals and such surrounding GM Gee if you look hard enough on the HFY forum, I've read them, so I know. The way some in the HFY clan kiss his a$$, it sure looks like worship to me. I'm not saying it is you in particular, but it is there. Now I'm sure GM Gee is a amazing guy in all aspects, there are plenty of amazing Martial Artists out there to meet and train with, that are also interesting people.

Not to bring up the past too much, but look at some of your own comments on this forum regarding first sifu Carl D and then sifu Gary Lam and tell me if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black. Yes there are more amazing martial artists in the world other than GM Gee. He'd be the first to agree.

Then please share some video of Chi sau, Chi Kiu, and Kiu Sau drills from HFY of yourself on Youtube, and then I will believe you

Dude, whatever. Send me private clips of Ernie's stuff. Or post it on the internet. Respecting culture or a way of training doesn't mean you're not free.

What was the negative statement made by the initial post by Dr John?

The "no trickery or bait and switch".

It is a simple yes or no question. In TWC, I learned a section of the Bui Jee form that wasn't taught publicly that contains what I understand to be Gwai Ma, so yes it is in TWC. Simple, yes or no. If you wanted discussion, I'm sure Dr. John would have provided some for you.

So for a public facing answer respecting what you were taught privately the answer is no. If you don't want to respect keeping private material private, the answer is yes. Yeah, real simple answer.

sihing

01-27-2008, 06:07 PM

Not to bring up the past too much, but look at some of your own comments on this forum regarding first sifu Carl D and then sifu Gary Lam and tell me if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black. Yes there are more amazing martial artists in the world other than GM Gee. He'd be the first to agree.
Carl D??? Yup, I'm guilty of bragging about Sifu Lam, and my bro Ernie, that is just my way of showing respect and sharing some truth about their abilities, but I certainly don't worship them and say things like I've read on the HFY forum regarding G Gee, somethings that really are not even about how good he is as a instructor/practitioner but more about esoteric things that seem to put him on a pedestal looking down to his followers. For example, it is my understanding that due to Gee's Buddhist beliefs, that he is not allowed to have any photographs of himself taken for the next few years. If this is not weird to you, then maybe it is just me:)

Dude, whatever. Send me private clips of Ernie's stuff. Or post it on the internet. Respecting culture or a way of training doesn't mean you're not free.

I don't have to send you private clips of Ernie, as he has freely shared ton's of video with people on his own website over the last years (see below link), the same holds true for Sifu Lam, who has something like 10 clips of himself in action on his site, and a few more on Utube, not to mention the 8 or 9 DVD's about his system that are out there right now. Also, if you haven't been reading the other thread going on, Sigung Wong has a ton of video material out there as well. There are no secrets to the WSL/GL VT method, it is all out there in print and in video, but I still haven't seen a single clip yet of anyone in authority from the HFY clan, as I understand video taping of HFY is striclty forbidieen, due to some ancient tradition which says that one can ONLY LEARN thru instructor/student contact. I do agree that ultimately this is the best way, but vid's do help as long as one is already in the learning process under a qualified instructor, and also they at the least allow the uninitiated the chance to "see whay you got". Believe it or not, not all of us can afford a $400 seminar for non memebers, or fly down to San Fran for a look at it ourselves. If a HFY club was near me, I would have already been there to check them out, too bad that is not the case.

The "no trickery or bait and switch".
"No trickery or bait and switch" implied by asking the question. How is that negative, unless the person reading it has a negative outlook towards the poster?

So for a public facing answer respecting what you were taught privately the answer is no. If you don't want to respect keeping private material private, the answer is yes. Yeah, real simple answer.
I was shown something that wasn't publicly taught, but I was never told to keep it secret. Are you guys being told that? Trust me dude, revealing if Gwai Ma is in your BJ form won't make you vulnerable all of a sudden:)

my last thoughts on the subject, I'd rather be training:)
James

Ultimatewingchun

01-27-2008, 06:58 PM

"If HFY and TWC are the same then why don't you or one of your masters know what Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu is and how they fit into the platform? That's like emphasized throughout the whole training in HFY." (Wayfaring)

***I GUARANTEE YOU...that if you, or anyone else in the HFY world, would be FINALLY willing to thoroughly explain what YOU mean by Kiu Sau or Chi Kiu - or better yet post a vid of the two....

that I could point out the TWC equivalents.

But if you or anyone else start to dodge the question again with mumbo-jumbo words and phrases meant to entice but not thoroughly explain - or instead once again suggest to me that I have to travel for hours-and-hours for attend a seminar in order to see WHAT I KNOW THAT I ALREADY KNOW...

LOL. It ain't gonna happen.

The two systems are not just superficially similar - they are ESSENTIALLY one and the same.

And I'm not driving for 4-5-6 hours each way to prove that to someone. It's just not worth my time. I've got better and more important things to do.

Savi

01-27-2008, 09:06 PM

***I GUARANTEE YOU...that if you, or anyone else in the HFY world, would be FINALLY willing to thoroughly explain what YOU mean by Kiu Sau or Chi Kiu - or better yet post a vid of the two....

Well Vic, I answered John's question about the WC formula back on pg 14 of this forum (closed thread) here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46625). So dodging questions aren't my thing. I took time out of schedule to sit down and answer his question. I do feel that certain generalizing statements like "anyone else in the HFY world, would be FINALLY willing to thoroughly explain" is not a fair one to make.

I've also posted two threads about HFY's Kiu Sau here (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2231) and another about HFY's Gee Ng Kiu Chi Sau (which isn't the same as Tan/Bong/Fuk Chi Sau) here (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2200), and those have been up for a long time...

that I could point out the TWC equivalents. Here's your chance.

anerlich

01-28-2008, 12:46 AM

Talk about bait and switch... I had believed you Anerlich were above this kind of behavior.

OK, let's talk about bait and switch.

We had Chango with a lot of hifalutin platitudes about all being brothers in love with the study of Wing Chun, and how we need to get to a place where we can share the art's rich harvest, yadda yadda yadda.

Several TWC people answered the question from their POV. One even posted a vid of the entire form. We're prepared to share.

Phil calls Chango on this, the question of sharing is too complicated for Chango to consider at work and he has to go home to think about it.

I ask the question again and you give me this crap about it not being shared with those not inside HFY., i.e. the "general public" or "wogs" (Scientology parlance for those not indoctrinated).

So much for all that brotherhood and sharing crap. CLASSIC bait and switch. You made Chango out to be a pompous liar. You talk the talk about sharing, but it's quite obvious you have no intention of walking the walk.

The problem with you people is that you demand the acceptance of the rest of the WC community, but only on your own unacceptable terms and conditions. You're blind to your own hypocrisy.

And not in a position to criticise anyone else's behaviour.

Someone else on here mentioned how Delroi Flood had travelled 2000 miles to find out for himself about HFY.

There a big local HQ of the Church of Scientology about two blocks from my workplace. I get invited there regularly by fresh faced clean cut grinning young people, promising major paradigm shifts in the way I view the world and exposure to methods and concepts I won't find anywhere else. Sound familiar?

It would cost me time, money and effort to go to the US to experience HFY, true. But the principal reason I don't bother is exactly the same as the reason I decline the invitation of the acolytes of the other org. Who needs this crap?

Another thread goes South.

anerlich

01-28-2008, 01:09 AM

duende

01-28-2008, 01:19 AM

OK, let's talk about bait and switch.

We had Chango with a lot of hifalutin platitudes about all being brothers in love with the study of Wing Chun, and how we need to get to a place where we can share the art's rich harvest, yadda yadda yadda.

Several TWC people answered the question from their POV. One even posted a vid of the entire form. We're prepared to share.

Phil calls Chango on this, the question of sharing is too complicated for Chango to consider at work and he has to go home to think about it.

I ask the question again and you give me this crap about it not being shared with those not inside HFY., i.e. the "general public" or "wogs" (Scientology parlance for those not indoctrinated).

So much for all that brotherhood and sharing crap. CLASSIC bait and switch. You made Chango out to be a pompous liar. You talk the talk about sharing, but it's quite obvious you have no intention of walking the walk.

The problem with you people is that you demand the acceptance of the rest of the WC community, but only on your own unacceptable terms and conditions. You're blind to your own hypocrisy.

And not in a position to criticise anyone else's behaviour.

Someone else on here mentioned how Delroi Flood had travelled 2000 miles to find out for himself about HFY.

There a big local HQ of the Church of Scientology about two blocks from my workplace. I get invited there regularly by fresh faced clean cut grinning young people, promising major paradigm shifts in the way I view the world and exposure to methods and concepts I won't find anywhere else. Sound familiar?

It would cost me time, money and effort to go to the US to experience HFY, true. But the principal reason I don't bother is exactly the same as the reason I decline the invitation of the acolytes of the other org. Who needs this crap?

Another thread goes South.

Dude... lots of words, but your argument is flawed. I'm not Chango. And I personally could care less about being "peer pressured" into sharing anymore than I already have.

Which BTW... if truth be told.... was/is a hell of alot more than most of my "WC Brothers" have on this stupid thread.

As far as another thread going south??? Hell this thread was never north of anything!

Savi

01-28-2008, 01:35 AM

...The problem with you people is that you demand the acceptance of the rest of the WC community, but only on your own unacceptable terms and conditions. You're blind to your own hypocrisy.

And not in a position to criticise anyone else's behaviour."The problem with you, Andrew, is that you attempt to characterize the whole HFY family, but only on your own inaccurate understandings and limited perception. You are limited by your lack of face to face communication with the HFY family.

You are not in a position to criticize anyone else's family."

Come on, dude...

General statements like yours never get you far, and holds NO credibility on any level. You don't speak for the HFY family, obviously. Unacceptable terms and conditions? Nonsense, Andrew... there are no such things. Less than a handful of HFY members interact here, and none of us (HFY) speak on behalf of the entire HFY family; only ourselves.

And just because someone can post a question doesn't mean that it has to be answered. It would be polite, of course. However, there are threads of HFY topics here that have ended horribly; practically everyone of them! So it is no surprise there exists a lot of skepticism when seeing a HFY thread here... ya? And I'm sure the reasons for such are many, and I'm not interested in going into that for productivity sake.

How does a single yes or no question warrant an entire thread? Someone may post a yes, no, or nothing at all... so what? No big deal. At the same time, it is no big deal to use a thread for a simple yes or no question; also no big deal. No one on this forum owes anyone anything. You don't owe me any respect, and vice versa. If I asked a member of TWC a question, and got no answer, I wouldn't complain (I'm only speaking for myself, needless to say but said it anywayz). The world is a lot bigger than my expectations, and I respect people's right to choose what they want to do with their time.

Which BTW... if truth be told.... was/is a hell of alot more than most of my "WC B