My 24 form Tai Chi

[Egg fu young]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SrMpOy4pVug

[brucereiter]

hi egg fu young,

looks good, keep it up everyday.

here is a clip of me doing a version of the same form. http://youtube.com/watch?v=HesN9B4xVfA enjoy.

best,

bruce

[Ronin maximus]

Although your "version" might be better than the USSD version.

But I only know what Youtube tells me is real

[jigahus]

Looks like Yang Style.

[Egg fu young]

hi egg fu young,

looks good, keep it up everyday.

here is a clip of me doing a version of the same form. http://youtube.com/watch?v=HesN9B4xVfA enjoy.

best,

bruce

shaolindoiscool,

Good stuff! Thank's for the video. Great feeling knowing other people are practicing this form also. As I'm sure you can tell, I learned from a DVD "Paul Lam" and from watching http://youtube.com/watch?v=jywr8704HQQ. I had a Sifu who teaches 18 form practice with me a few times but I'm stumbling through this one pretty much alone.

Take it easy,

[B-Rad]

Looks like Yang Style.
Which vid are you talking about? The 24 form was taken mostly from Yang style, with a little bit of Sun style in the rocking step, and a couple other slight changes to the postures in spots. If you're talking specifically about shaolindoiscool's version, in addition to the many embellishments to the form, it looks like he might have changed back to a more traditional Yang style stepping method, though he does rock back a little bit. I can't tell if he just didn't feel like rocking back all the way (or can't for some reason) or is going for the Yang style approach.

[Egg fu young]

Sorry about the duplicate youtube replies. Stupid thing kept saying it didnt contact the web page when I hit sent so I sent it a few more times :)

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,

Good stuff! Thank's for the video. Great feeling knowing other people are practicing this form also. As I'm sure you can tell, I learned from a DVD "Paul Lam" and from watching http://youtube.com/watch?v=jywr8704HQQ. I had a Sifu who teaches 18 form practice with me a few times but I'm stumbling through this one pretty much alone.

Take it easy,

keep up the practice. really think about your hands moving with your center. "if one part moves all parts move."

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

Which vid are you talking about? The 24 form was taken mostly from Yang style, with a little bit of Sun style in the rocking step, and a couple other slight changes to the postures in spots. /QUOTE]

as i understand the 24 form it has influence yang, chen, wu and sun. for me i mostly see the yang and sun influence ...

[QUOTE=B-Rad;830266]
If you're talking specifically about shaolindoiscool's version, in addition to the many embellishments to the form, it looks like he might have changed back to a more traditional Yang style stepping method, though he does rock back a little bit.

i perform this form as it was taught to me so i am not sure about the "embellishments".
i do recognize and understand i perform it in a different manner than most.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tLxJsqV6qcM this is i think a common expression of the 24 form. it is not what i am interested in learning though.


I can't tell if he just didn't feel like rocking back all the way (or can't for some reason) or is going for the Yang style approach.
the yang style approach is what i am attempting :-)
i avoid the "rocking back and fourth" type of stepping. i learned this for after practicing another yang style form for some time so i am sure it has influenced my understanding and expression of the 24 form and the method of stepping i use.
as a side note my teacher does not "rock back and forth" when he does this form ...

here are some examples of my yang tai chi chuan practice.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1c90Mrp3ffk

best,

bruce

[GLW]

Just to point something out...

The 24 Posture is a new routine created in the mid 1950's. It is also known as an ORTHODOX routine or form. By that, it is meant that there IS a very definite way to do it with very few deviations.

If you do 24 without the correct stepping - you may be doing Taijiquan but you are NOT doing 24 Posture - 24 has a very defined way to be done to be considered correct.

Ir you were to demonstrate in China or compete - in the US or in China - in a 24 posture division, you would be scored down for each deviation. Keeping in mind that 24 Posture has been required learning in the Wushu colleges in the PRC so it WILL be noticed.

So, where am I going with this - if you choose to USE the 24 Posture routine but modify it, it is no longer 24 so call it Taijiquan but do not call it 24. Sort of like if you were to take a VW beetle and remove the engine and replace it with a front mounted engine - V8 - it would NOT be a VW beetle (I actually knew of someone who did that and won a lot of pink slips racing due to people thinking of it being a beetle.

I am NOT saying what you would be doing is bad or worse than 24 - simply that by modifying a standard routine, you are no longer doing a standard routine.

[B-Rad]

as i understand the 24 form it has influence yang, chen, wu and sun. for me i mostly see the yang and sun influence ...

Not quite. It's mostly Yang, tiny bit of Sun, and no Chen or Wu... When it was adopted into Shaolin-Do I think they were a bit confused about it's origins. At least I first saw it mentioned in Shaolin-Do as the "Shaolin combined 24 form" combining the 5 main styles. It's the first form in the standardized system which does combine all the "major" styles in more advanced forms. I've seen the description corrected more recently... though as GLW pointed out, it appears there's been so many changes (lots added and taken away) it's not really the same form anymore.

[brucereiter]

Not quite. It's mostly Yang, tiny bit of Sun, and no Chen or Wu... When it was adopted into Shaolin-Do I think they were a bit confused about it's origins. At least I first saw it mentioned in Shaolin-Do as the "Shaolin combined 24 form" combining the 5 main styles. It's the first form in the standardized system which does combine all the "major" styles in more advanced forms. I've seen the description corrected more recently... though as GLW pointed out, it appears there's been so many changes (lots added and taken away) it's not really the same form anymore.



at my school in 1999 it was called the "shaolin combined 24 form" i wondered why it had the name "shaolin" attached to it. but as you say it has since been corrected. it was one of my first "questions" about shaolin do ...

[brucereiter]

Just to point something out...

The 24 Posture is a new routine created in the mid 1950's. It is also known as an ORTHODOX routine or form. By that, it is meant that there IS a very definite way to do it with very few deviations.

If you do 24 without the correct stepping - you may be doing Taijiquan but you are NOT doing 24 Posture - 24 has a very defined way to be done to be considered correct.

Ir you were to demonstrate in China or compete - in the US or in China - in a 24 posture division, you would be scored down for each deviation. Keeping in mind that 24 Posture has been required learning in the Wushu colleges in the PRC so it WILL be noticed.

So, where am I going with this - if you choose to USE the 24 Posture routine but modify it, it is no longer 24 so call it Taijiquan but do not call it 24. Sort of like if you were to take a VW beetle and remove the engine and replace it with a front mounted engine - V8 - it would NOT be a VW beetle (I actually knew of someone who did that and won a lot of pink slips racing due to people thinking of it being a beetle.

I am NOT saying what you would be doing is bad or worse than 24 - simply that by modifying a standard routine, you are no longer doing a standard routine.

i have no interest in forms competition:-)
i never refer to my expression of the form as the "standard routine".
my 24 form is very influenced by my other yang tai chi chuan training. (i think that is a good thing)
i will continue to call it "the tai chi 24 form" as that is what my teacher calls it.
as i said before i do it very different than most people.

tai chi chuan in my opinion is a dynamic art.

in my tai chi chuan practice what is important to me is understanding how to apply it to "fighting", becoming more healthy and having fun learning and practicing:-). i am not concerned with wushu competitions or impressing people buy looking exactly like her http://youtube.com/watch?v=jywr8704HQQ . she is very talented as are the millions of chinese who practice in that manner but like i said before that is not what i am interested in but i do recognize it as "standard".

copied from below link (to save typing time) this is one account of the 24 form history.
http://members.aol.com/sltcca/research/taireabs.htm
<<In order to standardize T'ai Chi Ch'uan for wushu tournament judging, and because many of the family T'ai Chi Ch'uan teachers had either moved out of China or had been forced to stop teaching after the Communist regime was established in 1949, the government sponsored Chinese Sports Committee brought together four of their wushu teachers to truncate the Yang family hand form to 24 postures in 1956. They wanted to somehow retain the look of T'ai Chi Ch'uan but make an easy to remember routine that was less difficult to teach and much less difficult to learn than longer (generally 88 to 108 posture) classical solo hand forms
Representatives of the original T'ai Chi families do not teach the forms developed by the Chinese Sports Committee. T'ai Chi Ch'uan has historically been seen by them as a martial art, not a sport, with competitions mostly entered as a hobby or to promote one's school publicly, but with little bearing on measuring actual accomplishment in the art. Their criticisms of modern forms include that the modern, "government" routines have no standardized, internally consistent training requirements. Also, that people studying competition forms rarely train pushing hands or other power generation trainings vital to learning the martial applications of T'ai Chi Ch'uan and thereby lack the quality control traditional teachers maintain is essential for achieving the full benefits from both the health and the martial aspect of traditional T'ai Chi training.
>>

i think the common way of stepping with the 24 form breaks some ideas that seem to be laid down from traditional yang tai chi chuan.

using part the horses mane as an example;
please give me your opinion of the pros and cons of the 2 stepping methods in question from a martial stand point? other than the before stated wushu competition standard ... i look forward to your opinions.

[GLW]

The entire idea is to NOT confuse people. If you refer to 24 in any manner, people will automatically think the standard routine. Simply call it Taijiquan. Those interested in the details will understand the idea of “based on 24 Posture standard set but adding back in or taking away…” Only those with a little knowledge ever ask that question. Many don’t even know the difference. They come in to a class wanting to continue Yang style…and then have to be told they are doing 24 or Cheng Manqing’s set. Or even Guang Ping (but usually they know the difference)

The rock step…no martial use…it was put in to reduce knee and ankle strain when teaching beginners. Similarly, there is a step to Ding Bu (toe of one foot by the solid other foot in a transition step) going from one side to the other in Part Horse’s mane and in Brush Knee…but in Yang, this step is NOT done. Again, the point is to encourage correct alignment, reduce the need for more leg strength, and reduce strain on the knee and ankle. The hand technique is almost the same…but the timing is different. There is a rhythm of each Taijiquan set. If you obtain the music used for group performances with 24, you will find that they are always in ¾ time….a waltz rhythm. Yang is more of an even timing – a 4/4 rhythm. Yang is hard due to trying to keep it even and large.

The signature move for Yang – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail – is way different in 24…same names, same order, but the application is reduced. The Yang circles are more compact but more important. Wave hands…totally different. More of a Sun influence in 24 for wave hands.

88 is NOT Yang style. It was created by Li Tianji…and is about as close to plagiarism as you can get – being Yang style filtered through with the rock steps and a couple of other moves added. (Yang Chengfu set is often counted as 85 sometimes as 103…sometimes as 108 but this is less common in the PRC than Taiwan. )

[brucereiter]

The entire idea is to NOT confuse people. If you refer to 24 in any manner, people will automatically think the standard routine. Simply call it Taijiquan. Those interested in the details will understand the idea of “based on 24 Posture standard set but adding back in or taking away…” Only those with a little knowledge ever ask that question. Many don’t even know the difference. They come in to a class wanting to continue Yang style…and then have to be told they are doing 24 or Cheng Manqing’s set. Or even Guang Ping (but usually they know the difference)

The rock step…no martial use…it was put in to reduce knee and ankle strain when teaching beginners. Similarly, there is a step to Ding Bu (toe of one foot by the solid other foot in a transition step) going from one side to the other in Part Horse’s mane and in Brush Knee…but in Yang, this step is NOT done. Again, the point is to encourage correct alignment, reduce the need for more leg strength, and reduce strain on the knee and ankle. The hand technique is almost the same…but the timing is different. There is a rhythm of each Taijiquan set. If you obtain the music used for group performances with 24, you will find that they are always in ¾ time….a waltz rhythm. Yang is more of an even timing – a 4/4 rhythm. Yang is hard due to trying to keep it even and large.

The signature move for Yang – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail – is way different in 24…same names, same order, but the application is reduced. The Yang circles are more compact but more important. Wave hands…totally different. More of a Sun influence in 24 for wave hands.

88 is NOT Yang style. It was created by Li Tianji…and is about as close to plagiarism as you can get – being Yang style filtered through with the rock steps and a couple of other moves added. (Yang Chengfu set is often counted as 85 sometimes as 103…sometimes as 108 but this is less common in the PRC than Taiwan. )

the "entire idea" for me is to understand how to apply the forms i practice. i do not care about forms competitions. at least you are calling what i showed as tai chi chuan lol :-) ...

reduce the need for leg strength ??? why? it is a martial art, it is not supposed to be "easy" if they made it easy for beginners are you supposed to adjust it when you become advanced?

if there is no martial use then why do it?
i think that these competitions have damaged the martial side of tai chi chuan in many ways.
i have no plans on doing the for to the "official music" ... i think that timing is unnatural since every one is shaped different if i did it at the same tempo as a 4'9" 100lbs chinese man it would be very odd. the music is for performance only i think.

having said that i do practice live and let live, so if you enjoy it and harm nobody do what you like ...

using your logic about confusing people let me ask this;
which of these do you think of as yang tai chi chuan? and why? they are all very different. in my opinion most of these are awesome. a few i dont like, which do you prefer?

Tung Ying Chieh
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ldAmH1zA7jU

Tung Huling
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rZHm-eNePI8&feature=related

Fu Zhongwen
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rRZLJVfT6h4

Yang Zhenduo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_hCCTTG3UY

cheng man ching
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

Master Yang Jun
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7pna9ajZHKY

Liu Gaoming
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8

dont know the name (yang 48)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IFZUIgaxlsI&feature=related

wu tunan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QRj4aqLsu8&feature=related

Nui Chunming
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EnxokIPLzJM&feature=related

Master Ma Ping
http://youtube.com/watch?v=verv_b7TEGQ&feature=related

[mawali]

I no longer use the 24 Form name but I do refer to it while preferring Beijing Yang short Form or Beijing shi taijiquan. In my teaching I prefer to use Yang style characteristics meaning I limit sitback and pivot and repulsing monkey with its exaggerated head/neck looking back and a few other 'small points'.

Another preference is to tell my students is to build gong because doing the form itself has limited 'health benefit'. It is good for stretching and invigorating jingluo, relaxing the arteries bit it is too short a routine buy itself.

You want to build the gong of Beijing shi taijiquan. Here are some strategies:

a. If doing the 24 form /aka Beijing shi taijiquan (reference) , increase the 3 repetitions parts to 6 or 9 repetitions i.e. yunshou, brush knee, parting horses mane.

b. Do 15+ repetitions per day or more.

c. Do more post standing (zhanzhuang), ding shi, and taijizhuang. These are the roots of gong building! With (c), you can do 5-10 repetitons as opposed to 15+.

[GLW]

Tung (Dong) Yingjie and Fu Zhongwen were with Yang Chengfu. Fu learned only from Yang Chengfu..being a nephew through marriage. He was often criticized for…strangely enough … looking TOO much like his teacher, Yang Chengfu, when doing Taijiquan. Fu was reported to have felt that he was better trying to preserve than further what Yang Chengfu created. Tung Huling is one of the next generation or is it the third from Dong Yingjie. Fong Yingjie learned some Wu and a bit of Chen as well. He claimed that he and Yang Chengfu were working on a Yang fast set but no one else in the Yang family knew of this. Dong’s lineage has the fast set and does things a little different so it is becoming its own branch.

Cheng Manqing – made enough changes that many would argue that it is a separate style from Yang Chengfu altogether. Yang Jun is Yang Zhenduo’s grandson…and therefore 2 generations removed. Yang Zhenduo is the youngest of Yang Chengfu’s children and was 9 or 10 when his father died.

Wu Tunan learned other styles but was also reported to have had one leg almost 4 inches shorter than the other…which undoubtedly affects how he approached everything.

48 is NOT Yang. It is a combined routine …and has been incorrectly dated by some to 1976…but was created a few years after 24 Posture as a follow up…and definitely was created before the Cultural Revolution. It uses a substrate of 24 to hold things together and switches from style to style….but again, it is NOT Yang.

Fu Zhongwen is closer in posture to Yang Chengfu according to many…but he also suffered from gout…which affected his stepping a bit. He liked seafood and coconut milk…which didn’t help his gout any. I am a bit biased in favor of Fu – but that is due to lineage.

Currently, there are two major Yang family branches, Fu’s and Yang Zhenduos. Their sequence is the same but there are different flavorings. I will say that Yang style is the easiest style of Taijiquan I know to do – badly…and very difficult to do well…

[brucereiter]

Currently, there are two major Yang family branches, Fu’s and Yang Zhenduos. Their sequence is the same but there are different flavorings. I will say that Yang style is the easiest style of Taijiquan I know to do – badly…and very difficult to do well…

i have to agree about fu zhongwen, i like his stuff i also like the tung/dong way of doing things ...

[GLW]

Given that Dong Yingjie studied not only with Yang Chengfu, but with Yang Shao Ho (YCF's brother), with a Wu/Hao teacher, and with one of Wu Jianquan's sons - a melding of the four approaches would be understandable.

If you look at something like Guang Ping Taiji, the trace theris back to Yang Banho...and it is definitely different from Yang Chengfu's approach.

Dong has a lot more slant in his movements than people like Fu Zhongwen. He also puts a lot more back bend and twist than Fu or Yang Zhenduo. Personally, I attribute this to the influence of the other 2 styles of Taijquan in his Yang Chengfu routine. This is not a statement of good or bad...just an observation.

I personally like the cleanness of Fu Zhongwen's approach. Since Fu only studied with YCF, I would tend to think his is closer to what YCF did.