Ngo cho kun

[Steeeve]

Does we have any Ngo cho kun players here?

I read ans see some about this style ....very interesting

Does Ngo Cho Kun have different branch ....

Steeve

[Laukarbo]

Hi,

heres a lot of info... www.konghankungfu.com
I recently stared to learn some ngo cho kun...very interesting style with a different
power than the style I learned... here in Manila chinatown are 2 different branches
Beng Kiam and Kong Han but there are more..:D

[Steeeve]

Laukarbo

Whats the difference between the beng kiam and kong Han? They came from the same source (root)

Thank

Steeve

[Laukarbo]

both of the Grandmasters learned from the same teacher back in Fukien..

[Steeeve]

Laukarbo

Ok but the two lineage seem to have two different way .....but thats the same ...I mean the forms and the principles and concept of the style

Does this chinese MA from Filipino could have some influenced of the Kali (filipino Ma0 or Silat (indonesian) or Bersilat ( Malaysian)...? I know its all different system but chinese MA of southern East (Filipino ,indonesia,malaysia are influenced by they own MA ......Thats why Hung Chia ,chuka and so on are different of the pure chinese MA....:)

BTW I trained and train the kuntao silat de thouars(uncle Bill) ,pekiti tirsia kali ....
All the chinese Ma from Phillipine are very interesting also from indonesian ...I think the old chinese MA came there and are the more near of the source they dont lost the goal .....plus the filipino ,indonesia ,malaysia are more practical ...I mean they keep the fighting way......

Hope you understood What I mean ....My english is so so

Steeve

[Laukarbo]

Hi Steeve,

I know what u mean... both Ngo Cho Kun gyms have the same roots but they went different ways ...thats why there are differences now..for example me and my sihing learned hung kuen from the same Sifu but we teach differently.A few generations later the difference already is really big...
I know that the kong kan gym keeps their ngo cho very close to the way it was taught in Fukien so there are not many fma influences..Alex Co Sifu learned also 7 star mantis,some hung gar and I think also some fma so at Beng Kiam there might be some influences but I never trained there so I only can guess..Sifu Alex Co is a walking martial arts dictionary ..he has a very big knowledge...

[Steeeve]

laukardo

The Sam Chien will be the same .....if not we have a problem:)

take care men I like you;)

[Laukarbo]

:D thanks

Yes sam chien is the same...but in their own interpretation..:D

peace:)

[Steeeve]

Whats you mean by interpretation? not same move ....sam chien is not a fighting or applications form?

Steeve

[Laukarbo]

same moves but with slight differences in position of hands etc.

[Steeeve]

But its the same :)

You said you train Hung Kuen ....Do you cames from the Lao Kim lineage and the Lapunti Abaniko Arnis of GM Jonny Chiu ::) Ur from the fhillipine ?

S5eeve

[Steeeve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tItmXHc-qwI

Here Lao Kim.....thats mean grand auntie........


Streeeve

[Laukarbo]

But its the same :)

You said you train Hung Kuen ....Do you cames from the Lao Kim lineage and the Lapunti Abaniko Arnis of GM Jonny Chiu ::) Ur from the fhillipine ?

S5eeve
I live in the PI, Im from Lau Family in HK
Im the poster of that Lao kim video by the way hehe:D;)

[Steeeve]

Men

Do you have more ......I really like it:):):):):):)

Steeve

[wu-ji]

The proper name for Ngo Cho Kun is Ngo Co Ho Yang Kun or Wu Zu He Yang Quan. This refers to Shizu Cai Yuming's (Chua Giok Beng) teaching of Wuzuquan. There are other non-Chua's NCK, and they mainly come from Malaysia.

Within the Chua's lineage, it can be generalized into 2 different "flavors": Quanzhou and Xiamen.

Quanzhou's lineages come from Chua's early students. They have relatively larger movements. Both Kong Han (from Lo Yan Cu) and Beng Kiam (from Tan Kiong Beng) are Quanzhou. These 2 masters, and correspondingly their sons Lo King Hui and Tan Ka Hong) interchanged the knowledge a lot. So, there are many similarities. There are also differences, of course. Generally, Beng Kiam is considered a "proper text book" NCK. They emphasize the precision of the execution and rhythm. Kong Han has somewhat an emphasis on a quick and hard execution. However, I am not from either of these lineages. So, this is a generalization from an outsider view.

There is also a third lineage in the Philipines, from Kun Tao Ok's lineage. They are lesser known, but are known for the fierceness of the way they fight. Kun Tao Ok is from Liem Kiu Ji's lineage.

Xu Qinghui from mainland China is also a good Quanzhou master. He is from a different lineage (not Kong Han), but received intensive instructions from the late master Lo King Hui.

Lo Ban Teng lineage(s) from Indonesia are also a Quanzhou style. They emphasize on extreme power generation and limbs' conditioning.

The current active Xiamen styles are mostly from Sim Yang Tek (Shen Yangde)'s lineage. He was the last (indoor) student of Chua. This lineage has a more compact frame and emphasizes on vibration energy. The known successors of this lineage (but not limited to) are Wushuguan group in Xin An village near Xiamen, Beng Seng in Singapore, Giok Beng in Singapore, a master in Taiwan, and a lineage that descends from Liem Tjoei Kang in Solo (Surakarta), Indonesia. There could also be a lineage in Myanmar since Sim lived there for a while before finally migrated to Singapore. However, it is hard to track them due to the lack of communication and political situation.

Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage is unique since it has both Quanzhou and Xiamen flavors. Liem was a nephew of Lo Ban Teng and also an adopted son of Sim Yang Tek.

It is not easy to find instructions in North America. These are some of the list that I would recommend (but are not limited to):

- Kong Han group has Daniel Kun in Vancouver, BC; Jeffrey Yang in Canton, OH; and Milo Ong in LA, CA.
- Beng Kiam has Christopher Rickett in San Diego. However, he doesn't advertise in NCK teaching. He is also a very reputable master of Filipino arts.
- There is someone from Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage in Southern California area. However, this person prefers to go dormant for now and does not wish to teach.

There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions.


About Sam Chien, it will not be the same. "One thousand people have one thousand different Sam Chien." It is not the shape, but the essence that matters.

I hope this helps. Best wishes.

[The Xia]

What forms encompass the style?

[wu-ji]

There is a lot of forms, maybe hundreds of them, since the style is an agglomeration of Southern Tai Cho, White Crane, Monkey, Southern Luo Han, and Tat Mo Ki Kang. Each of the ancestor's forms can be practiced and carried over. There are also forms created by Sujo Chua or his descendants.

The majority of Sujo Chua's students had already been masters in a Fujian style before asked to be a disciple of Sujo Chua. So, each of them could have also been teaching their respective forms.

It was more likely that Sujo Chua taught more of the principles, such as embodied in the Sam Chien, the power generation (ngo ki liat), and methods, much more than the forms.

There are documented 7 chien forms alone. Each of lineage carries different forms.
However, there are common core forms taught such as: Sam Chien )3 battles), Ji Sip Kun (20x punch). Si Mun Pha Kak (4 gates 8 diagrams), and Song Sui (hard to translate, something like Double "Neutralizer").

Yet, so far, I have never seen any identical executions of these forms from each lineage. Kong Han and Beng Kiam closely resemble each other, even in the forms' list, due to the aforementioned interactions.

When this style's practitioners meet, usually they show each other's Sam Chien. Although looking rather simple, Sam Chien is the "thesis" of the practitioner's and the lineage's kung fu. There are sayings such that: "Learning Sam Chien in the beginning, until death learning Sam Chien," "Sam Chien is deeper than it looks," "From the core of Sam Chien will grow 108 branches," or "There should never be 3rd pair of ears while giving instructions for Sam Chien."

Sam Chien, as executed by Alexander Cho, is very "textbook" and "fundamentally correct."

[Steeeve]

Wu ji

Thank for all this information:)

Does some players put more emphazize in one 5 core style ...I mean some more white crane ,some more tai cho and so on

Steeve

[The Xia]

There is a lot of forms, maybe hundreds of them, since the style is an agglomeration of Southern Tai Cho, White Crane, Monkey, Southern Luo Han, and Tat Mo Ki Kang. Each of the ancestor's forms can be practiced and carried over. There are also forms created by Sujo Chua or his descendants.

The majority of Sujo Chua's students had already been masters in a Fujian style before asked to be a disciple of Sujo Chua. So, each of them could have also been teaching their respective forms.

It was more likely that Sujo Chua taught more of the principles, such as embodied in the Sam Chien, the power generation (ngo ki liat), and methods, much more than the forms.

There are documented 7 chien forms alone. Each of lineage carries different forms.
However, there are common core forms taught such as: Sam Chien )3 battles), Ji Sip Kun (20x punch). Si Mun Pha Kak (4 gates 8 diagrams), and Song Sui (hard to translate, something like Double "Neutralizer").

Yet, so far, I have never seen any identical executions of these forms from each lineage. Kong Han and Beng Kiam closely resemble each other, even in the forms' list, due to the aforementioned interactions.

When this style's practitioners meet, usually they show each other's Sam Chien. Although looking rather simple, Sam Chien is the "thesis" of the practitioner's and the lineage's kung fu. There are sayings such that: "Learning Sam Chien in the beginning, until death learning Sam Chien," "Sam Chien is deeper than it looks," "From the core of Sam Chien will grow 108 branches," or "There should never be 3rd pair of ears while giving instructions for Sam Chien."

Sam Chien, as executed by Alexander Cho, is very "textbook" and "fundamentally correct."
Thanks for the information. Do you know much about Ngo Cho Kun outside of SE Asia?

[wu-ji]

Wu ji

Thank for all this information:)

Does some players put more emphazize in one 5 core style ...I mean some more white crane ,some more tai cho and so on

Steeve

You are more than welcome. I am just sharing information.

With a risk of overgeneralizing it:

Quanzhou lineages use Tai Cho core since a lot of them are descendat, or somewhat influenced, by Liem Kiu Ji (Some calls him Lim Kiu Lu), who was a Tai Cho master prior meeting Chua Giok Beng.

Xiamen is heavily influenced by White Crane since Sim Yang Tek was a White Crane master prior meeting Chua.

In my very personal opinion, Ngo Cho Ho Yang Kun is more of a thesis than a style, very much like Bruce Lee's fighting methods. Respectively, it allows the practitioners to adapt the principles to be suitable for his/her frame. Even the stances vary widely within lineages in the style and within persons in the lineages.

[wu-ji]

Thanks for the information. Do you know much about Ngo Cho Kun outside of SE Asia?

You are very welcome, again I am just sharing information.

Ngo Cho Kun is very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian. Any representations outside those areas are usually just extensions from those 2 regions.

It is also a small circle. Although we might not know each representation personally, it is easy to check who is who. If you are at a particular location or would like to know about a particular person, I might know or can ask about the person.

[wu-ji]

Steeeve:

I see that you are training with Uncle Bill. He is a great master. I saw some of his and his disciples' clips. Ngo Cho Kun (at least the one that I know) and Uncle Bill's martial arts share identical major principles. Of course, there minor differences and also power generation methods might vary.

One example will be in the sa khak ho (triangular steps). I see that Uncle Bill is big in it from the way he moves. Xiamen lineages also emphasize this.

Quanzhou lineages, especially Lo Ban Teng and Kong Han, prefer tank-like direct approach (although it doesn't eliminate the side stepping).

[The Xia]

You are very welcome, again I am just sharing information.

Ngo Cho Kun is very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian. Any representations outside those areas are usually just extensions from those 2 regions.

It is also a small circle. Although we might not know each representation personally, it is easy to check who is who. If you are at a particular location or would like to know about a particular person, I might know or can ask about the person.
Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

[Laukarbo]

Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

http://www.konghanusa.com/

[Steeeve]

Wu Jia

Im not a student of Uncle Bill ....but I was a student of one of his senior here in Canada.....I trained with Uncle when he came to Canada for visits every years....in fact I was his driver here :)

In kuntao silat and also serak silat or tjimande the entry is the footwork ....the triangle principles ...whats we call langkas tiga...other style used this pattern also like the filipino MA(pekiti tirsia I talk the style I know)

In fact Uncle Bill used mostly the pakua chang ....different of the chinese pakua but some similaritie....I think the Kuntao style of SE Asia keep the fighting or warrior way....

The triangle step is sometime very subtle ...look like a direct entry in straight line

I agree the jurus of silat look a lot like the Ngo cho kun ....

Nice to talk with you

Steeve

[The Xia]

http://www.konghanusa.com/
Thanks Laukarbo. A question for you. Being from a Hung Gar background, how do you like crosstraining in Ngo Cho Kune?

[wu-ji]

Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

I posted this list in a previous posting above:


It is not easy to find instructions in North America. These are some of the list that I would recommend (but are not limited to):

- Kong Han group has Daniel Kun in Vancouver, BC; Jeffrey Yang in Canton, OH; and Milo Ong in LA, CA.
- Beng Kiam has Christopher Rickett in San Diego. However, he doesn't advertise in NCK teaching. He is also a very reputable master of Filipino arts.
- There is someone from Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage in Southern California area. However, this person prefers to go dormant for now and does not wish to teach.

Recommendations are based on personal acquaintance or recommendations of acquaintances.

There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions. These include (there could be more):

- Bonifacio Lim (Beng Kiam)- NJ area
- Ben Asuncion (Beng Kiam) - LA, CA area
- Mark Wiley (Bengkiam) - CO area if I am not mistaken.
- Jose Parman (I forgot) - San Jose, CA area
- John Graham (Chee Kim Tong) - Mobile, AL (more of his students in AL area)
- Kenneth Lim in VA area. He advertises more as a Wing Chun and Hokkian Eng Chun styles, but one of his teachers is from Gui In Lam lineage.
- Kam Lee (A Malaysian lineage that I forgot) in FL
- Lo Ban Teng group as represented by Lo Siauw Gok's lineage is ready to start teaching in USA. Lo Hak Lun, Lo Siauw Gok's son states that hopefully it will happen in less than a year.

It is unethical for me to comment on Bonifacio Lim's skills since I am from a different lineage and I do not know him personally. However, I can say that Alex Cho represents the "standard" of Beng Kiam. So, any good masters from Beng Kiam should move similarly to him. His videos are publicly available for purchase (I am not commercially related to him and don't benefit from the purchase). You can just google "alex cho ngo cho kun" to find them.

Daniel Kun, Bonifacio Lim, Ben Asuncion, and John Graham just met in Alabama in September. Kam Lee and the dormant person were also invited, but could not make it.

[Laukarbo]

Thanks Laukarbo. A question for you. Being from a Hung Gar background, how do you like crosstraining in Ngo Cho Kune?

no problem,
I have to say I still learn,practise and teach Hung Kuen...
but since I live in Manila/Chinatown I have a big access to Ngo Cho Kun..
I was really curious about the style..to ur question I just recently started and learned Sam chien and my limited knowledge about ngo cho kun only tells me so far that the style really compliments hung fist. Its a good addition for short distance fighting,and learning short power generation...
Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other

[wu-ji]

Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other

Tian Te Lin Chien will feel more similar to Tit Sin Kuen. They actually share the same elements and purpose. The Philippines lineages don't emphasize that much pressure and tension as compared to Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar lineages. Some lineages, like the Lo Ban Teng lineages from Indonesia have strong emphasis on the tension.

[Laukarbo]

Tian Te Lin Chien will feel more similar to Tit Sin Kuen. They actually share the same elements and purpose. The Philippines lineages don't emphasize that much pressure and tension as compared to Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar lineages. Some lineages, like the Lo Ban Teng lineages from Indonesia have strong emphasis on the tension.


thanks for the info...
very interesting.

[Steeeve]

Wu ji are you a ngo cho player.....Men you have a lot of informations:)

From what I heard and read a lot of chinese MA from the SE Asia is call Kuntao
A generic term (hokkien)Does the Ngo Cho kuen have some influenced coming from Filipino kali , indonesian silat or malaysian bersilat ?

and also maybe the NGo Cho have influenced some of this style?


Laukarbo ...the Hung kuen from GM Lao Kim have influenced a lot the Lapunti Arnis De abaniko of Carbunay...Do you train from this lineage (Lao Kim)?

Steeve

[wu-ji]

I have received a full permission from my teacher to open my own school years ago after more than 13 years of training. However, I do not have time to teach now due to my activities. With work and family, I can only spare time for personal training.

We (NCKers) also have rather an international network. So, we can share and pass information easily.

Kun Tao is the fujian (min an) dialect for Quan Dao, the way of the fist. There is an intertwining relationship between Fujian arts and SE "native" arts. Some Fujian masters taught local people, some have to use it for a self-defense, some make a good relationship with the locals and change knowledge, ..., and some people just steal, imitate, then claim an "indigenous" invention. Some steal from watching, some steal because of fighting interaction (when you fight someone, you can also learn his movements). Not pointing fingers to anyone or start a flame, but this is the fact. Some Silat lineages are very respectable and very independent of Fujian influence, some have a strong influence and admit it, some have the influence and don't admit it.

The point is not about stealing. MA adapts. "Necessity is the mother of invention." Because it is needed (for self-defense), Fujian arts in SE Asia grows. Silat follows the same story and also grows.

[wu-ji]

By the way, just to share a little bit about Fujianese martial culture.

No self-respectable Fujianese master ever calls himself sifu or master in the first person. It is just a part of the humbleness culture. They usually rather be called "ah cek" (or uncle), just like Uncle Bill. The term "suhu" (sifu) or "sinshe" (learned man, or master) is usually used by a 2nd person who respects the master. Another example is Daniel Kun, a Kong Han master residing in Vancouver, BC. He prefers to be called coach Daniel by his students. The general idea is it is not culturally accepted to self-promote: let praise (if any) comes from another persons. Another consequence of this culture is usually an excellent master does not advertise. They never boast about their own skills and they let other people see it as is. So, students need to be convinced by the master's reputation, and not by self-promotion. Students are expected to trust and pursue the knowledge. Teaching environment is usually much more informal with a lot of personal interactions. This is especially true for the indoor students whose interactions with their teachers are more like family.


So, I am very sure there are NCK masters in North America that just hide there.

My new favorite saying: "Work kills kung fu.

[Steeeve]

Interesting what you write

What I think is mostly all Chinese M.a(kuntao) practice in SE asia are the old style(village style) ....I mean came from immigrate master before the classification of the style with names for each styles like today....This old style was simple with probably less of 10 forms maybe less ....and 3 or 4 weapons

All native system ...like silat have been influenced by some Kuntao ...

the Fukien are mostly the White crane players...(southern)...Does the wing chun ,southern mantis and Fujian white crane have the same roots? like the pak mei and dragon (lung ying )have the same root? What Do you thing

Sorry my english is not very good ...sometime im probably hard to follow:)

[wu-ji]

No worries about English. I am also a non-native speaker.

The number of forms is never a good measure. Forms can be short or can be long. The contents are what's more important. Students of the arts need to digest it to experience (not just to understand) the fighting theories and methods of the arts.

No NCK lineages share identical movements on the forms. Forms can be created as necessary to assist students to understand the arts. Other than the aforementioned fighting methods and theories, forms also contain logical sequences that are the "wisdom of experiences" from those who created the forms. Hence, forms without the duida (counterform) has a lesser value. Practiced solo, forms are also an aid for power generation, precision, and speed training. However, forms training, even with the duida, is not sufficient. Without various degrees of sparring practices, proper timing and distance calculation cannot be developed.

Respectively, masters of the arts can have different philosophy in teaching. Some prefer short, but plenty, forms. Some prefer more condensed, but fewer, forms. Some goes from simple to more complex forms.

My personal beliefs is that high-level martial arts look similar in fighting. The training methods can be different, but human body only has one body, one head, 2 arms, and 2 legs. Just how many possible combinations can exist and be used efficiently?

Southern Chinese arts should share similar principles just like Northern Chinese arts do. The principals are very similar, if not identical, but the interpretations could be different and causing variations in training methods.

[Steeeve]

Wu ji

The duida ....you mean the two men set ? for sure sparring is a necessity....and train the attribute (physical)

Since we talk about SE asia system

Muay thai(Kabri Kabrong....weapons thai system) and Bando (burmenese Boxing) or leithwe are really realistic system with a old tradition...and very good training method....

Steeve

[wu-ji]

Yes, duida is the 2-person set.

From what I researched, old Muay Thai (non-ring) shares many common attributes with the monkey side of NCK. Very nice. NCK also emphasizes limb conditioning to the various degrees. NCK also has weapon trainings (along with the duida sets). But old style weapons become more and more irrelevant for urban life (who's gonna go to the mall and carries a guan dao?). So, it becomes of less interests among the younger generations.

"Leitai" is also the old name for a match bout in Chinese dialect.

About "realistic systems." People always say that they want a realistic system, but are they willing to pay for the price? The more realistic it is, the greater is the risk of injuries. Other than pain, it is also downtime for training (for recovery). A good system has a balance between these. In the western world, the matter gets more complicated with the legal issues.

In the western world, the usage of excessive force in self-defense carries consequences in both jail time and financial terms. Unless, of course, the situation is life threatening. In addition, the procurement of firearms is very easy as well. Martial arts becomes irrelevant for self-defense and suits more the needs of people who want to get exercises or participate in a form of MA competition.

On the other hand, in SE Asia, where corruptions prevail with the legal systems/enforcement are dubious at best and the procurement of firearms is not easy, MA as a form of self-defense prevails. It is just a matter of necessity. We always joked that supposed we get involved in a sketchy situation yet we still have doubt about the situation, just hit first. Things can be solved later one way or the other.

[Laukarbo]

@ WuJi,thanks for all the informations..u have a great knowledge.For me NCK is a new world and very fascinating.


@ Steeve,I learned my Hung Kuen in Hongkong not in the Philippines..I learned it from Sifu Mark Ho and still learn.(u never stop learning:D) but I know about Lao Kim and one of his students in Cebu mixes it with FMA..but Lao Kim didnt teach Hung Kuen..its clf and a village style...

[The Xia]

no problem,
I have to say I still learn,practise and teach Hung Kuen...
but since I live in Manila/Chinatown I have a big access to Ngo Cho Kun..
I was really curious about the style..to ur question I just recently started and learned Sam chien and my limited knowledge about ngo cho kun only tells me so far that the style really compliments hung fist. Its a good addition for short distance fighting,and learning short power generation...
Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other
Sounds great. :)

[The Xia]

How would you describe the Ngo Cho Kun monkey?

[Laukarbo]

as far as I know its mainly the footwork

[Steeeve]

Laukardo

Lao Kim style was the dragon-Tiger style ...call Hong Cha

Johnny Chiuten and Rene navarro was his disciple in Phillipine



take a loook

http://www.beta-sigma.org/jc1.swf

[wu-ji]

How would you describe the Ngo Cho Kun monkey?

Evasive footwork, cruel hands (targeting weak spots), full of tricks, fluidity, attack/counter attack that uses body momentums - sometimes used as sacrificed counter techniques. Suitable for people with a smaller frame.

[Laukarbo]

Laukardo

Lao Kim style was the dragon-Tiger style ...call Hong Cha

Johnny Chiuten and Rene navarro was his disciple in Phillipine



take a loook

http://www.beta-sigma.org/jc1.swf


yeah I seen this site before,very interesting.
I know personally a few students of Lao Kim and even learned one of the forms..they said its village hung gar..hong chia is mandarin same meaning...
Tiger dragon style is more possible and it has more a CLF feel than hung fist..
Even the dynamic tension kiu sao was performed with 2 fingers ...:eek:
this seems to be a rare style actually..but not really hung fist

[boh]

Hi, sorry I came in a bit late into this conversation.

Xia, the Monkey description here may interest you.

A preamble: I am from the Malaysian, Chee Kim Thong Ngo Cho School. Have been practising it for > 30 yrs.

Speaking from our lineage's perspective, lets see if I can describe our art in a way that is less confusing.

NCK consists of 5 styles, sort of melded into 1. The 5 styles each contribute their respective characteristics, which include the physical movements/strokes, the footwork, power generation, internal Qi development & deployment.
for e.g.

White Crane, BaiHe whipping, explosive power, fluid & fast arm
techniques, some footwork, mostly long &
mid-distance, with some close-in techniques.
Strikes are mostly with open palms, fingers and
phoenix-eye.

Monkey, HouQuan quick, tight footwork, tight,close-in defense &
attack, locks & takedown, a lot of quick sneaky
techniques. Hands are in 'monkey paw' (open
hand with thumb tucked in). Has superior use of
body-mechanics, allowing smaller frame persons
to take larger opponents. We have low squat
stances, a few tumbles and somesaults, but far
lesser than other monkeys styles I've seen.

TaiZu very hard linear style (hardly any circular
movements), using the forearms & hands as
knives. Lots of power chops and slices, and
spearhand thrusts. Emphasizes a very upright
and 'face front' posture with very tight & solid
defences and attack, mainly at middle-distance,
with some long and short techniques.

LuoHan Similar to TaiZu with a very bold, upfront
posture, but with powerful but more 'looser'(less
close-in) movements, both circular and linear;
and a different power generation system. Mid to
long distance.
More use of fists.

TatMo Does not contribute physically to the forms, but
contributes the breathing, meditative and Qi
development aspects, to complement that of the
above arts.

* note: 'long-distance' means distances between outstrecthed arms to kick-reach.
'mid' is between out-stretched arm to forearm length distance.
'short/close-in' is anything less than above.

For us there are 18 forms, starting with Sam Chien of course. In the forms, each of the 5 styles are blended in, so within the 18 forms, we don't have a Monkey or Crane form, they are Ngo Cho forms. But within the froms, with some strokes, you can tell quite clearly its from Crane or Monkey etc.. With other you can't. For e.g. our Sam Chien is about 75% Crane.

In addition to the 18 forms, our lineage also has Sam Chien for each of the 4 styles, ie: one for Monkey, Crane, TaiZu, LuoHan, which you get to learn when you're more senior.

So when you learn Ngo Cho, you learn Ngo Cho, and not Crane, TaiZu etc.... at least in the beginning. But having said that, as you get to master Ngo Cho, you also get to understand/learn the specific techniques of its component styles. Once you can do that, you can then 'manifest' a stroke, say a block, with the nuances of Crane, together with its power generation/Qi techniques. OR combine a Crane type strike with Monkey footwork.... this is when it gets really interesting! Learn Ngo Cho and get 4 styles for the price of one! But seriously, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

Also, in our lineage, we emphasize a lot in the internal Qi development, as musch as (or more?) than the so called "internal martial arts".
We also emphasize a lot on 'sticking & listening' (like Wing Chun ChiSao), for profficiency with sensitivity with hand-to-hand contact. 'Hardening' and hand-conditioning' exercises are standard, and bruises on forearms are not uncommon during training.

For us, we neither call our style hard of soft, close-in or long distance, because we have it all. The 5(4) styles give a profficient Ngo Cho practicioneer many techniques to choose from, in application. For example, in an exercise/sparring our techniques may start of soft, but power thru with a hard attack, then change to soft again... Part of the mastering the art is to be able to switch fluidly between the different power-systems/techniques, hard or soft, close-in, mid, long distance.

We also have this thing called "heavy hands", which means being able to deploy power to the arms so that its difficult for an opponent to deflect or block an attack. And this "heaviness" can be used irregardless of whether the stroke is hard or soft, at long, mid, short distances. To develop this we do a lot of 2 man exercises, where we use the 'sticking & listening' with 'heavy hands'. And this is not just 'push-hands' or 'roll-hands', but with fairly powerful push/pulls, strikes and blocks; where if an opponent makes a mistake, he may be 'bounced' 2 or 3 steps backwards. The 'heaviness' and sensitivity training is intricately linked with the 'internal' aspects of the art.

[The Xia]

Hi, sorry I came in a bit late into this conversation.

Xia, the Monkey description here may interest you.

A preamble: I am from the Malaysian, Chee Kim Thong Ngo Cho School. Have been practising it for > 30 yrs.

Speaking from our lineage's perspective, lets see if I can describe our art in a way that is less confusing.

NCK consists of 5 styles, sort of melded into 1. The 5 styles each contribute their respective characteristics, which include the physical movements/strokes, the footwork, power generation, internal Qi development & deployment.
for e.g.

White Crane, BaiHe whipping, explosive power, fluid & fast arm
techniques, some footwork, mostly long &
mid-distance, with some close-in techniques.
Strikes are mostly with open palms, fingers and
phoenix-eye.

Monkey, HouQuan quick, tight footwork, tight,close-in defense &
attack, locks & takedown, a lot of quick sneaky
techniques. Hands are in 'monkey paw' (open
hand with thumb tucked in). Has superior use of
body-mechanics, allowing smaller frame persons
to take larger opponents. We have low squat
stances, a few tumbles and somesaults, but far
lesser than other monkeys styles I've seen.

TaiZu very hard linear style (hardly any circular
movements), using the forearms & hands as
knives. Lots of power chops and slices, and
spearhand thrusts. Emphasizes a very upright
and 'face front' posture with very tight & solid
defences and attack, mainly at middle-distance,
with some long and short techniques.

LuoHan Similar to TaiZu with a very bold, upfront
posture, but with powerful but more 'looser'(less
close-in) movements, both circular and linear;
and a different power generation system. Mid to
long distance.
More use of fists.

TatMo Does not contribute physically to the forms, but
contributes the breathing, meditative and Qi
development aspects, to complement that of the
above arts.

* note: 'long-distance' means distances between outstrecthed arms to kick-reach.
'mid' is between out-stretched arm to forearm length distance.
'short/close-in' is anything less than above.

For us there are 18 forms, starting with Sam Chien of course. In the forms, each of the 5 styles are blended in, so within the 18 forms, we don't have a Monkey or Crane form, they are Ngo Cho forms. But within the froms, with some strokes, you can tell quite clearly its from Crane or Monkey etc.. With other you can't. For e.g. our Sam Chien is about 75% Crane.

In addition to the 18 forms, our lineage also has Sam Chien for each of the 4 styles, ie: one for Monkey, Crane, TaiZu, LuoHan, which you get to learn when you're more senior.

So when you learn Ngo Cho, you learn Ngo Cho, and not Crane, TaiZu etc.... at least in the beginning. But having said that, as you get to master Ngo Cho, you also get to understand/learn the specific techniques of its component styles. Once you can do that, you can then 'manifest' a stroke, say a block, with the nuances of Crane, together with its power generation/Qi techniques. OR combine a Crane type strike with Monkey footwork.... this is when it gets really interesting! Learn Ngo Cho and get 4 styles for the price of one! But seriously, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".

Also, in our lineage, we emphasize a lot in the internal Qi development, as musch as (or more?) than the so called "internal martial arts".
We also emphasize a lot on 'sticking & listening' (like Wing Chun ChiSao), for profficiency with sensitivity with hand-to-hand contact. 'Hardening' and hand-conditioning' exercises are standard, and bruises on forearms are not uncommon during training.

For us, we neither call our style hard of soft, close-in or long distance, because we have it all. The 5(4) styles give a profficient Ngo Cho practicioneer many techniques to choose from, in application. For example, in an exercise/sparring our techniques may start of soft, but power thru with a hard attack, then change to soft again... Part of the mastering the art is to be able to switch fluidly between the different power-systems/techniques, hard or soft, close-in, mid, long distance.

We also have this thing called "heavy hands", which means being able to deploy power to the arms so that its difficult for an opponent to deflect or block an attack. And this "heaviness" can be used irregardless of whether the stroke is hard or soft, at long, mid, short distances. To develop this we do a lot of 2 man exercises, where we use the 'sticking & listening' with 'heavy hands'. And this is not just 'push-hands' or 'roll-hands', but with fairly powerful push/pulls, strikes and blocks; where if an opponent makes a mistake, he may be 'bounced' 2 or 3 steps backwards. The 'heaviness' and sensitivity training is intricately linked with the 'internal' aspects of the art.
Thanks for the information!

[wu-ji]

Greetings again,

I am just complimenting information that senior Boh gave.

Most of the lineages have sticky hand training for close range applications although it varies.

This "stickiness" training is sometimes attributed to a 6th "ancestor", a female "hian ni" (xuan nu) figure that emphasizes to the soft energy. Some lineages acknowledge this master and practice the soft art. Some practice it without having a clear description about it. Some don't recognize it.

In our lineage, the "soft" art is practiced and given during sticky hand/close quarter training. This is transmitted as the teacher sees how the students can perceive it. Like the Tat Mo ancestor, there is no specific forms for it and it is more of methods/ways than movements. It is very internal, but not as the northern internal families(Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc.) interpret it. In our lineage, this is more of our "yin" energy for "listening" and "bridge making/crossing" while Tat Mo ancestor is more on the "Yang" energy for hard (attack) jin and iron shirt applications.

I know that Chee Kim Tong lineage practices it somehow, but I am not too familiar with their teaching methods. So, it is best for senior Boh to describe it.

In my opinion, NCK is more of a family of concepts than of a style. It is more of the synthesis of the cores of Fujian main arts. For example, (Ngo Cho) Ho Yang Kun is just a branch of the arts as how Sujo Chua Giok Beng synthesized it while Chee Kim Tong's lineage follows a different synthesis from another master.

Hence, there is a great variation and it is hard to describe what "Ngo Cho Kun" is. If you are familiar with the Canine world, it is like Jack Russell Terrier is more of a strain than a breed. We can recognize a Jack Russell Terrier individually, but it is hard to precisely describe it due to its variations (and differences in the ancestors).

[wu-ji]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSjQBpnZDk

This form, Chong Hap Kun, is a compilation form when masters from different lineages met and synthesized a compulsory form for competition. It has a bit of flavor from different lineages. The performer is Xu Qinghui and his student surname Zhang. Since Xu is from Quanzhou, this performance has a Quanzhou flavor.

[boh]

hi,

Thanks for the perceptive comments by wu-ji. Since the issue of 'hian ni'/'xian nui' is brought up, here is an interesting anectdote as related by our Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong. It may be more legend than fact but is interesting nevertheless.

The 4 masters were discussing and 'touching hands', determining which strokes and techniques to incorporate into the Ngo Cho forms, a young lady passed by, observed their activities and giggled at them. The masters were obviously annoyed and enquired from the young lady what she found amusing. "Your techniques are all so hard, you should have some softer techniques!", she said. Of course this prompted the masters to invite her to show them, whereby she promptly overcame them. Shortly after, the young lady left, and the masters never found out her name or what style she represented, so they just refered to her as 'xian nui', which literally means "the lady in the blue dress". Realising this, the master incorporated the softer aspects into Ngo Chor. Hence she is attributed to be the mysterious 6th ancestor.
(My suspicion is that she is from the Wumei (NgMui - cantonese) school, but that's just my guess.)

But having said that, Grandmaster Chee did teach (only one?) Xian Nui form, and also of WuMei (where he learned from a different master).

Our lineage of Ngo Chor is from a master named Lim Yean who taught only 2 students, Grandmaster Chee and his (Lim Yean) grand daughter.

I'd like to add a few more comments on top of wu-ji's, "NCK is more of a family of concepts than of a style" as I beg to differ. I would like to think of it as a distinct style, as the its forms is different from those of its components styles. I think the NCK masters have done a wonderful job of integrating the different styles into one, so that they 'synergise' ie: so that techniques of one style leverages on the tehcniques of other styles, and the whole thing fits together seamlessly.

Also, the way we train, the exercises and so on are different from that, for e.g. practised by a (pure) Crane school. Yet it has been able to preserve the essence, in terms of core techniques both internal & external of the component styles. And once you gain more mastery of the style, can then diassemble and assemble the different components, mix and match and that makes it very interesting, both from a research/learning point of view as well as application! This gives the profficient NCK practioneer a very wide range of techniques to choose from, or he may decide to focus his training into one direction (like Crane for e.g.) and adapt/inteprete the other strokes into a 'Crane Way' of execution. Hence, that's why "the whole is truly greater than the sums of its parts".

Having said all this, NCK is not hard to learn, but may be hard to master! But you will pick up some key concepts fairly early on, like "stable stances", "heavy hands", "listening". That's how its taught in our lineage anyway.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZASjKEQloKk

Hopefully, to clarify, this' a video posted by Eric Ling. He visited us in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and we were exchanging techniques. The first part was Eric demonstrating his Whooping Crane applications, from 0:36 onwards I was explaining some applications from Sam Chien, and from 1:30 sticky hands (done with 'heavy hands' to uproot the opponents stance).

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=55J56LQWHxg

This clip shows a short Hian Ni/Xian Nui form, performed by Yap Cheng Hai in QuanQou Nan Shou Lin Conference 2004(?).

[wu-ji]

Senior Boh,

Are you Yap Boh Heong, by any chance?

What I meant as "family" is a synthesis, much eloquently described, then summarized by you with the Gestalt notion of "the whole is larger than the sum of its parts."

That's a very nice demonstration of you. From my eyes, it looks like you were using hianni energy with crane hands/distance. Nice bridging/controlling and sinking.

Thank you for the explanations.

[boh]

yes, I am Yap Boh Heong.

you have extensive knowledge on ngo cho.
But I dont see any info on your public profile, so have we met? ;-)

you can contact me via private msg/mail.

[wu-ji]

Thank you. I still have much to learn. I just wish to share information to the interested gentlemen (and ladies) here.


PS: Private message sent.

[The Xia]

What are the stances in Ngo Cho Kun?

[wu-ji]

Greetings,

I am answering your question here: http://ngochokun.proboards52.com

Thank you.

[diego]

Good thread you guys...interesting style!. I would love to see more of the Monkey combat usage...I do a derivative of Hop Gar and I'm 6 foot four 185 pounds cut...My great grand father was 6 foot 4 and 150 pounds when he won a bronze medal for boxing in the world war 2 olympics and he was in the navy...that reach for a tall fit person is impeccable against the average joe...most people are about 5 foot ten...:) Hop Gar long fists fit my frame perfectly. What yall wrote about the monkey is good for small guys sounds like the oppossitte of what I train, and that really intrigues me!.

[IronWeasel]

Hi guys.


Can someone tell me how "Ngo Cho Kun" is pronounced?


Thanx

[Piercinghammer]

I'm pretty sure its like.... No so Kune.

so I've been told.

[wu-ji]

"ng" requires a nasal voice. so "ngo" is pronounced like "go" with a nasal voise. It means "five". The Japanese pronunciation of "go" is identical to it. This sound is not available in English. Some Fujian dialects pronounce it as "go". So, if it is hard, "go" is find (like in "go away"). "Cho" is pronounced like "joe" but with "ch" instead of "j", a bit lighter. "kun" is like "goon" but with a "k" instead of a "g"

[bakxierboxer]

...My great grand father was 6 foot 4 and 150 pounds when he won a bronze medal for boxing in the world war 2 olympics....

What WW2 Olympics?
There were no Olympic Games held during either WW1 (1916) or WW2 (1940 & 1944).

[IronWeasel]

Thanx for the replies so far, guys.

[wu-ji]

You will find more info if you go to the board I mentioned above. NCKers are congregating there.