"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[sihing]

That is exactly the problem (and the basis of the traditional viewpoint) -- you can't trust the source. That's what leads to the fantasy. Do just the opposite: don't trust the source, whoever it is. Trust in evidence and reason. Critical thinking is the only way to discern the truth. But critical thinking is not easy, is a difficult skill to develop, and takes constant, continual effort.



But Dale would even tell you not to take his word for anything -- to go see (the evidence) for yourself. It should never be a case of credibilty.



There is nothing wrong with listening to anyone and everyone. But I think it only prudent not to believe anyone. Sound conclusions only come from evidence (fighting experience, yours and others') and from reason (based on evidence) applied critically.


I see what your saying, the thing is this is a internet forum, and with that comes the problem of absolutely being able to understand what someone is saying and the inability to have direct face to face physical contact with everyone that posts here. The credibility I give the people I mentioned is not of the same level I give someone like Ernie, or Sifu Lam for example, as I have met these gentlemen and learned/trained with them both. I know how good they are personally, whereas you don't since you have never met either of them. I trust their advice and counsel when it comes to WC training and concept because they have proven to me what they are capable of, and that's all I need to believe in what they say.

Regarding your comment about Dale, I don't really have the time to investigate for myself whether or not what he says about submission/BJJ fighting is true, it is a passing fancy and not something I want to invest allot of time into, so I trust up to a point what Dale has to say on the subject. WC is something I want to investigate and that is why I went to LA twice, Toronto a few times, had Ernie up here for a seminar once, and will travel to LA again soon, it all depends on what interests you and what your intentions are as a individual. Mine are to learn WC, and teach it as a pure form to others, simple? How they use it in a fight is up to them, as I will advise them on things and tell them to test it out for themselves, and to search out others with more experience and training than I.

James

[YungChun]

LOL !
Dude, of all the videos to choose from...

Don't you get a kick out of that one--I do..

The guy even does a form demo before fighting.. LOL.. What anyone fighting T should do..Just attack when he starts laughing.. :D

Then he executes his combos and keeps em coming, looks like Hung to me... Bottom line the guy did good looking at the stats.. His opponent was no Chuck Liddel but then he was no Bruce Lee.. :p

Wait a minute, the street tough called him a "kick boxer" ---could that be Terence? :D

[YungChun]

Here's another good one..

Terence as an Englishman doing a karate seminar.. LOL
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f5f_1180038903

My guess, not too far off from T's WCK..

[Graychuan]

Hmmm. This guy was using his "fantasy-based" traditional martial arts (TMA) to take care of a problem he was having. It looks like he was using some sort of fantasy karate TMA. I wonder if the guy he knocked out in the street fight knew he was up against a fantasy-based TMA?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aaec47fa9a&p=1

Oh yea, judging by all the friends of the guy who got knocked out - I am sure the TMA guy would have gotten stomped by multiple attackers if he had attempted a take-down for some grappling, submission or ground & pound.

(I can hardly wait to hear why this fight is not realistic - or how the TMA guy would have been smoked by someone with MMA training.)

I always bet on the fighter - not the style or system. But WCK is a great system because of its tools, techniques, strategies, etc. MMA is just a method of training.





'NOTHING UNDER HEAVEN CAN WITHSTAND MY DIVINE CRUSHING FIST.' LMBAO


~Cg~

[sanjuro_ronin]

This just opens another "can of worms", the infamous " it worked for me so I am happy" can of worms.

While very few train to be able to fight against a trained fighter and one can argue ( I don't but one can) that the chances of meeting a trained fighter are rather slim, The fact is that the training to be able to beat a trained figther is the SAME as the type of training one would do to get the best out of his fighting skills.
To train in a way that allows us to beat a "common thug" but not good enough for a trained fighter, when we have the training available to us that can allows us to beat BOTH, makes no sense to me.

[YungChun]

This just opens another "can of worms", the infamous " it worked for me so I am happy" can of worms.

While very few train to be able to fight against a trained fighter and one can argue ( I don't but one can) that the chances of meeting a trained fighter are rather slim, The fact is that the training to be able to beat a trained figther is the SAME as the type of training one would do to get the best out of his fighting skills.
To train in a way that allows us to beat a "common thug" but not good enough for a trained fighter, when we have the training available to us that can allows us to beat BOTH, makes no sense to me.
Too many shades of grey..

I figure this kid was mid-level in his school.. But who knows for sure he could have trained for less than a year..

Want to see how good or bad he is, then we'd have to see him fight someone better.. We'd have to know how long and hard he trains.. IMO he has some good attributes..

How good of a fighter does one need to beat to qualify as good enough..?

Some folks I know have trained very hard for years and still aint so good.. Still others could whoop ass before training at all...

There are all levels in sport, all levels in life, how good is good?

Surely there's room for "dojo fighters", no?

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are all levels in sport, all levels in life, how good is good?

Surely there's room for "dojo fighters", no?

some of the best fighters I know are "dojo fighters" so yes, there is room, BUT, those same dojo fighters, or "gym fighters" if you pefer, do fight.

Someone once said that you are only as good as your last fight or at least, what you have learned form your last fight.
Very few of us have access to train with the top 5% of the fighters in the world, what we can do is train like them though.

[nschmelzer]

Too many shades of grey..

I figure this kid was mid-level in his school.. But who knows for sure he could have trained for less than a year..

Want to see how good or bad he is, then we'd have to see him fight someone better.. We'd have to know how long and hard he trains.. IMO he has some good attributes..

How good of a fighter does one need to beat to qualify as good enough..?

Some folks I know have trained very hard for years and still aint so good.. Still others could whoop ass before training at all...

There are all levels in sport, all levels in life, how good is good?

Surely there's room for "dojo fighters", no?


Bingo. Good post. That was my point of posting the real (albeit humorous) video.

[YungChun]

some of the best fighters I know are "dojo fighters" so yes, there is room, BUT, those same dojo fighters, or "gym fighters" if you pefer, do fight.

Someone once said that you are only as good as your last fight or at least, what you have learned form your last fight.
Very few of us have access to train with the top 5% of the fighters in the world, what we can do is train like them though.
My guess is that kid does/did spar..

His performance was stylized but, again, I see some good attributes--clean KO, power, visual focus, hand/eye, continuity of attack, distance awareness..

I can't believe he only did forms, etc..

[sanjuro_ronin]

If we are gonna talk about fantasy:

[Knifefighter]

I started this thread in order to suggest the BJJ may not be the paragon of "functional" or "reality" martial arts that Terrence and Dale would have us believe.

Yesterday I was reading the latest issue of "Martial Arts Masters Magazine" and came across an interesting interview. It was entitled "An Inconvenient Truth." That article contained the following quote:

"Today, nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners are being taught and focusing their efforts on preparing for competitions, including the Mundial. The problem is that 95% of what is being used in competition does not apply, and will not work in a real fight."

That is a comment from Ryron Gracie, son of Rorion, grandson of Helio. and the primary instructor at the Gracie Academy. It suggests the strong possibility that Ryron would agree that there is an element of "fantasy fu" in BJJ, just as in other martial arts. Granted...its a matter of degree. But again, perhaps BJJ isn't the paragon of "reality" fighting that Terrence and Dale would like us to believe. Just thought I would close out my involvement on this thread with words from someone who should have good insight into BJJ itself.

Does BJJ have some fantasy foo? Yep... I've noted before that just about all of the "self-defense" in BJJ is mostly B.S.

BJJ's "self-defense" is very TMAish with compliant partners, no sparring, and theoretical techniques. Fortunately, it is a very small, if not nonexistent, part of most BJJ programs.

When I trained at Ryron's school, I used to ask for my money back whenever we did a full class of nothing but "self-defense".

[Knifefighter]

Hmmm. This guy was using his "fantasy-based" traditional martial arts (TMA) to take care of a problem he was having. It looks like he was using some sort of fantasy karate TMA. I wonder if the guy he knocked out in the street fight knew he was up against a fantasy-based TMA?

Notice how all his "form" completely fell apart once he started fighting. Either one of those kids could have won that fight. The TMA guy's wild punch just happened to be the first one to land.


Oh yea, judging by all the friends of the guy who got knocked out - I am sure the TMA guy would have gotten stomped by multiple attackers if he had attempted a take-down for some grappling, submission or ground & pound.

LOL... since when does standing up make you impervious to being jumped by your opponent's friends? Some of you guys are really out of touch with reality.

[Knifefighter]

This is also true of any other martial art.
I am also curious. What are the other differences do you see from the 'street mma' and the 'ring versions'?

~Cg~

Street MMA:
- Add biting and eye gouges (not the little eye flicks that most TMA guys think of as eye gouges) from the basic MMA/BJJ ground control positions.
- Choke to unconsciousness and follow with joint breaks.
- Replace applying controlled submissions with multiple, ballistic movements designed to compound injuries to the joints.

[Graychuan]

Street MMA:
- Add biting and eye gouges (not the little eye flicks that most TMA guys think of as eye gouges) from the basic MMA/BJJ ground control positions.
- Choke to unconsciousness and follow with joint breaks.
- Replace applying controlled submissions with multiple, ballistic movements designed to compound injuries to the joints.




Is there a 'safe' way to strangle vs. using a choke in competiton.? I know strangulation is more potentially lethal since you are actually cutting off blood supply to brain but from what Ive seen it works quicker. Chokes(cutting of the air) seems to take a few seconds longer and the guys are usually concious enough to tap. Shamrock finished off Baroni with a strangle. You can tell because he dropped unconcious immediately. Couldn't even tap. Ref had to do it for him.

~Cg~

[Knifefighter]

Is there a 'safe' way to strangle vs. using a choke in competiton.? I know strangulation is more potentially lethal since you are actually cutting off blood supply to brain but from what Ive seen it works quicker. Chokes(cutting of the air) seems to take a few seconds longer and the guys are usually concious enough to tap. Shamrock finished off Baroni with a strangle. You can tell because he dropped unconcious immediately. Couldn't even tap. Ref had to do it for him.

~Cg~

Strangle and choke are basically synonyms. When I use the word choke in terms of technique, I am talking blood choke (cutting off the blood supply), as this is the preferred method.

[anerlich]

It's arguable strangles are safer than chokes - by cutting off the air supply you have more chance of damaging the windpipe.

IIRC people have been getting choked out for a century at the Kodokan with no fatalities, and some BJJ schools in Brazil have regular no tap sessions where you can choke out or be choked out. Unless you have some anatomical weakness or the guy holds it on for far too long, chokes/strangles in training or competition are unlikely to cause damage.

So they're hardly "lethal" - or at least far less so than knockouts from head trauma.

[Knifefighter]

It's arguable strangles are safer than chokes - by cutting off the air supply you have more chance of damaging the windpipe.

IIRC people have been getting choked out for a century at the Kodokan with no fatalities, and some BJJ schools in Brazil have regular no tap sessions where you can choke out or be choked out. Unless you have some anatomical weakness or the guy holds it on for far too long, chokes/strangles in training or competition are unlikely to cause damage.

So they're hardly "lethal" - or at least far less so than knockouts from head trauma.

The paradox of the blood choke:

You can render someone completely helpless in 3 to 5 seconds, yet it is perfectly harmless when release soon after unconsciousness occurs.

Hold on to the choke for too long and you can cause irreversable brain damage or death.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just as a point of reference, in catch wrestling circles it's said that a "choke" attacks the windpipe (throat) and therefore cuts off the air needed to breath - and a "strangle" attacks the blood flow to the brain by pressuring the carotid arteries on the sides of the throat.

[nschmelzer]

LOL... since when does standing up make you impervious to being jumped by your opponent's friends? Some of you guys are really out of touch with reality.

The reality is, friends are much more likely to jump in and stomp once the guy is on the ground. Anyone with any experience will know that to be true. You lose what little credibility you have when you deny this obvious fact.

Also, I concede it was a lucky hook punch that ended the fight. But maybe it was the guy's TMA training that gave him the confidence and spirit to throw that punch in the first place, and at the right time? That's the point. TMA is not only the shapes and tools of MMA - it can improve a fighter's best weapons - his mind and his spirit.

[KPM]

Hey Nick!

Keith...you should actually train in some BJJ before commenting on it.

---Since when is that a requirement in any discussion forum? And besides, I have posted on this thread previously that I have done some basic BJJ.

There are four expressions of BJJ - Gi, No GI, MMA and street. Helio and sons dont like Gi and No Gi because of
a) the points system and time limits (meaning you can stall to a win )
b) the neglecting of the traditional self defense curriculum (a specific set if techniques)
c) The positions that would leave you vulnerable to striking on the street (e.g. half guard)

---While you don't actually say you agree with me, you prove my point. There is a good amount of "fantasy-fu" is BJJ, as in other arts. And you have just stated that Helio Gracie...the Grandmaster of GJJ agrees with that idea.

But what makes BJJ so effective and what remains constant no matter what the expression (sport or non sport) are.....

---No doubt! If you have been reading this thread you will note that I never said bad things about BJJ, and stated that I admire it. My point has been that it has a "fantasy-fu" element just like other arts. Hence the title of this thread.

---Its funny, and I guess just human nature....you can get people to argue with you until you are blue in the face, but its hard to get people to actually agree with you on a given point, regardless of how obvious it may be.

[KPM]

Hey Dale!

Does BJJ have some fantasy foo? Yep... I've noted before that just about all of the "self-defense" in BJJ is mostly B.S.

---Really! If you noted that on this thread, I guess I must have missed it! My apologies for that! Since, given the title of this thread, it would have been a very appropriate thing for you to post!

[Nick Forrer]

If you have been reading this thread you will note that I never said bad things about BJJ, and stated that I admire it. My point has been that it has a "fantasy-fu" element just like other arts. Hence the title of this thread.

---Its funny, and I guess just human nature....you can get people to argue with you until you are blue in the face, but its hard to get people to actually agree with you on a given point, regardless of how obvious it may be.

Keith,

You are twisting what im say so it fits in with your preconcieved ideas (i.e. 'see BJJ is just like wc...they both have fantasy!'). But your preconcieved ideas are wrong and come from a lack of experience (no, some basic bjj lessons doesnt cut it and is in fact worse since you think you know what youre talking about when really you dont).

Fantasy Fu is thinking something will work when in reality it doesnt. This is not the case with BJJ. All the techniques in BJJ work in their proper context as opposed to not working at all i.e. so called sport techniques work in sport BJJ....so theres no element of fantasy...as long as people understand that some techniques dont carry over from one to another (e.g. collar chokes dont transfer to nogi or mma but do to the street). Again though that is not equivalent to there being a fantasy element in BJJ.

I hope thats now clear. So no im not agreeing with you.

[KPM]

Nick:

You are twisting what im say so it fits in with your preconcieved ideas (i.e. 'see BJJ is just like wc...they both have fantasy!').

---No. I think you are doing the twisting. I never said or implied that "BJJ is just like WC." What I have been saying is that ALL martial arts are guilty of having some element of "fantasy-fu" to them, and that BJJ is no exception. Its all a matter of degree....some arts have more, some less. But even BJJ is not immune, so lets cut WCK some slack and not hold BJJ out to be the paragon of "reality."

But your preconcieved ideas are wrong and come from a lack of experience

---That's why I provided a quote from Ryson Gracie that pointed out that he saw a "fantasy fu" element in BJJ and then you yourself backed it up by saying what Helio Gracie thought about it.

Fantasy Fu is thinking something will work when in reality it doesnt. This is not the case with BJJ. All the techniques in BJJ work in their proper context

---No, again....you need to go back and actually read the thread. Terrence defined "fantasy-based" as things that did not work in real fighting. That was the context. Not BJJ tournaments. Chi Sao techniques work in the context of Chi Sao. TKD high spinning kicks work in the context of TKD competition. Tai Chi works in the context of push hands. Aikido works in the context of randori.

I hope thats now clear. So no im not agreeing with you.

---What is clear is that you have once again proven one of my points for me. People will argue until they are blue in the face, but will seldom affirm an obvious point that is made. And I'm surprised Nick, you are starting to sound like one of the WCK "naysayers." Have Terrence and Dale formed a club? :D

[t_niehoff]

---No. I think you are doing the twisting. I never said or implied that "BJJ is just like WC." What I have been saying is that ALL martial arts are guilty of having some element of "fantasy-fu" to them, and that BJJ is no exception. Its all a matter of degree....some arts have more, some less. But even BJJ is not immune, so lets cut WCK some slack and not hold BJJ out to be the paragon of "reality."


I agree with your point that some elements of fantasy may be in every MA. And I agree with you that there are varying degrees of fantasy in different MAs. But that doesn't make fantasy "good" or acceptable. And it doesn't mean that a MA that is largely fantasy-based is on equal footing with one that is largely reality-based. Your argument that we should "cut WCK some slack" is illogical. We should instead reject fantasy where ever we find it.


Fantasy Fu is thinking something will work when in reality it doesnt. This is not the case with BJJ. All the techniques in BJJ work in their proper context

---No, again....you need to go back and actually read the thread. Terrence defined "fantasy-based" as things that did not work in real fighting. That was the context. Not BJJ tournaments. Chi Sao techniques work in the context of Chi Sao. TKD high spinning kicks work in the context of TKD competition. Tai Chi works in the context of push hands. Aikido works in the context of randori.


I think you are misinterpreting what Nick means by context -- he means in their proper context in fighting. If it doesn't work in fighting as you train it, then you are practicing something that is fantasy-based (it's reality-based if it works in fighting as you train it).


---What is clear is that you have once again proven one of my points for me. People will argue until they are blue in the face, but will seldom affirm an obvious point that is made. And I'm surprised Nick, you are starting to sound like one of the WCK "naysayers." Have Terrence and Dale formed a club? :D

I am not a "WCK naysayer". There is a difference between believing in fantasy and accepting reality. I am saying that WCK is a fantasy-based MA for most people since they learn/practice it that way. Even the guys that spar have a huge part of their WCK as fantasy. What I am is a "fantasy-based naysayer" (which, btw, is why people say my posts are repetitive -- because 99%of what people talk about on this forum is fantasy so I keep pointing that out!), and I'm saying that if we want to develop our WCK to be a functional martial art, then we need to approach it from a reality-based view. You can't make fantasy-based MAs functional.

[Wayfaring]

You can't make fantasy-based MAs functional.

Here's the only real fantasy-based MA I've ever run into:

http://yellowbamboo.net/

The rest vary by degress....