baguazhang styles

[shaolin_allan]

I've seen in these threads many people have a poor understanding of baguazhang as an art. The style i've studied is the sun lutang baguazhang style which consists of the 8 animal forms which is its main difference as a branch of its own. What is the baguazhang(style or branch) or internal arts you study? and what is its main differences you've seen from the other similiar internal systems if any? Thanks beforehand for the responses!

[woliveri]

I study/practice Dragon Form Bagua handed down from Wang ZhuangFei in Shanghai China. It can be called LongXing (dragon form), GongTing (Imperial) or just Wang ZhuangFei's Bagua handed down from Gong BaoTian.

The lineage goes:

Dong HaiChuan
Yin Fu
Gong BaoTian
Wang ZhuangFei

Gong BaoTian also learned from Dong HaiChuan after studying with Yin Fu.

Our style also employs 8 animals, circle (or octagon) walking, mud stepping, chicken stepping, 8 mother palms, 2 dragons coiling around pillars, and many more basics .. In addition to the 8 forms of each animal we also have Black Dragon Form, Subdueing Tiger Lo Han, Black Tiger, Bian Dan, etc....

The characteristics of our style is tighter coiling, single weighted postures, employing high, low, fast, slow, etc... Also, our elbows are tucked rather than "rounded" like taiji and other styles of bagua that I've seen.

Want to introduce the characteristics of Sun LuTang's Bagua?

[shaolin_allan]

that sounds very interesting woliveri I train in the U.S.A in Arizona myself. Sun Lutang's system has dragon forms as well I believe our styles may be similiar. The system typically goes 8 animal forms, bamuzhang, training forms such as 8 palms,the linking forms, then swimming dragon body palm, for the open hand forms. The style itself is simple and extremely fluid. I would say the system can be at times externally hard and internally soft. Its emphasis is on sound fighting techniques as we practice two partner drills quite often. I'm sure it's different with each sifu who teaches as all systems.

[woliveri]

shaolin_allan,

Here's a recent clip with me and my teacher in Shanghai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HudnSSwzOIY

This is part of the "Subdueing Tiger Lohan" form.

shaolin_allan, may I ask who you studied Sun LuTang's bagua from?

Thanks,

Also, how do you like Arizona? I have been thinking about moving there for a long time.

[shaolin_allan]

I've studied sun lutang baguazhang and xingyiquan from my sifu Joseph Eagar in Phoenix, Az. Arizona is a great place to live, the weather is always good to train outside except in the evenings during winter, when it gets cold. You can live where it's warm but there are always the mountains in the north you can go visit in a short time. I believe sifu Eagar learned the system either from the daughter of sun lutang, sun jianyun, or a student of hers, I could tell right away the teaching was very traditional, the lineage was explained to me before, but i'd have to double check.

[shaolin_allan]

so do you practice swimming dragon form in your system? what is it like training in shanghai?

[woliveri]

shaolin_allan,

We don't have a form called "swimming dragon" that I know of. Just the ones I had previously wrote about and others I don't know.

Training in Shanghai is cool but there's a lot of adjusting that needs to happen with the western student coming here. It's noisy here, it's damp and cold in the winter, there are no laundry mats to dry clothes, etc... so it just takes getting used to.

[shaolin_allan]

hey i noticed no one else has posted woliveri, are you still around on these boards? maybe we're the only ones on here who practice baguazhang. lol

[woliveri]

shaolin_allan,

yep, I'm here.. Just arrived in Florida a couple of weeks ago. Definately no bagua here where I am and not much interest it appears either. So, just practice, practice, practice for me :D:D:D


Still thinking about that Arizona move though. Sounds tempting. Gotta be a better job market than here too.

[shaolin_allan]

I just got back from illinois myself. Yeah the job market is very strong here unless you're in the entertainment business lol. not too many movie studios but everything else there is plenty, plus the weather is great. so you're an american what state are you from? and what had you living in shanghai? also how is your bagua going for ya?

[woliveri]

I'm from Florida, grew up here. Went to Shanghai to look for something to get into... Found Bagua, how cool. Also spent time learning Chinese and what ever else I could get into.

:D:D:D

[wiz cool c]

Hi I study Zhang style Bagua. The difference I see in this style and others is it is very athletic. It is done quickly and builds stamina. I like this cause I study Shuai Jiao as well.

Here is a video of my slef doing swimming dragon form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7xqC-mEfO0

[shaolin_allan]

wiz the form looks great similiar to our swimming dragon form. so how long have you practiced baguazhang for? i'm sure the wudang flavor of bagua is also very athletic. the sun system is a mix of internal chi gong training and athletic forms as well.

[wiz cool c]

Hi shaolin_allan I 've done 1 year now here in beijing and about three years with sifu Frank Allen in new york.

[shaolin_allan]

wow that is excellent. i have always wanted to visit both new york and beijing. are there many americans in beijing? its tough to find good bagua teachers nowdays so we're very lucky. do you also train any other arts besides baguazhang with your sifu?

[Three Harmonies]

If someone was interested in moving to study Sun Bagua I would suggest Tim Cartmell in Garden Grove CA. www.shenwu.com

I am ignorant on the subject but I believe the traditional Sun Bagua system only has the Single and Double Palm Change, and the Eight Animals as its core. Swimming Dragon is unto itself. No other fancy forms or anything in Sun.

Jake :cool:

[shaolin_allan]

the sun bagua system i train there is the animal forms, three training forms, the linking form, and youshen

[wiz cool c]

shaolin_allan how are you. I only do bagua with my teacher. I also study shuai jiao it is a lot to learn. If you ever want to take a trip here I could help you out as long as I here. i got another 7 months on my visa and hope to stay several more years. If you are a native english speaker you can get lost of work here.

[Zenshiite]

I do Cheng style from Lui Xing-Han's lineage.

[shaolin_allan]

im good wiz_c thanks, if i had the money id come to beijing in a heartbeat. I also like shuai jiao and am considering cross training in tai chi chuan. What are the characteristics of Cheng style Zen?

[wiz cool c]

Do you guys do any kind of partner training, sparring or rou shou in your bagua lesson?

[shaolin_allan]

i personally havent trained rou shou wiz. we do a lot of two person drills and in advanced levels we spar. i have done some training we call ridge hand that builds sensetivity and helps develop real time technique for use of bagua in combat. it also helps toughen the arms a great deal.

[Zenshiite]

Cheng style is usually more throw/grappling oriented because Cheng Ting Hwa was a Shuai Jiao practitioner. As the story goes, Dong Hai Chuan trained his disciples the Ba Gua principles according to their own martial experience.

[shaolin_allan]

yep that is all true zen. cheng ting hwa was actually a master of sun lutang. you can also see the shuai jiao in sun style. sun is just more focused on the animal forms and simplicity in mind.

[wiz cool c]

Cheng style is usually more throw/grappling oriented because Cheng Ting Hwa was a Shuai Jiao practitioner. As the story goes, Dong Hai Chuan trained his disciples the Ba Gua principles according to their own martial experience.

what type of partner training/sparring do you do in your school.

[shaolin_allan]

ridge hand is two person training similiar in a way to the two person drills in wing chun, as its also used to strengthen your forearms. we are allowed to do light to mid contact sparring without gear in advanced levels. it's possible my school does train rou shou I just personally haven't.

[shaolin_allan]

does anyone on here do a lot of real time drills for use of their baguazhang for self-defense?

[Zenshiite]

what type of partner training/sparring do you do in your school.


I don't actually go to a school. I have a private instructor, also a good friend. Lives in Cali, I'm in PA. It's not conducive to the kind of immersion I would like to get, but that may be remedied soon.

Most of the partner work I did at one time wasn't specifically ba gua partner training, and I don't think I've advanced that far yet. But I've done some push hands and sticking hands. A little bit of sparring type drills. Not too much on that front as my training partner/kung fu brother sort of disappeared from the map and stopped his training. :confused:

I'm working on getting another one sorted out for my purposes, with hopes of getting him training with my Shrfu.

[BenDavid]

does anyone on here do a lot of real time drills for use of their baguazhang for self-defense?

This is how Bagua was traditionally practiced, and how many still practice it. My view is that the applications for every palm change should be understood, practiced repeatedly until they are internalized (in the sense of muscle-memory), and can be executed against a RESISTING partner, before one moves on to the next palm change.

Other than that, just walk the circle... a lot. Walk then walk on bricks, then bricks on their side, then dig out a little in the ground and fix the bricks straight up. Repetition of the fundamentals in Bagua is the core of what the art is about martially. In the early years they just had single and double palm changes; and double palm change was just two singles back to back.