View Full Version : Judo Opinion?
I'm posting this here, 'cuz I guess it kinda falls under the auspices of cross-training/absorbing what's useful...
I have no grappling skill whatsover, and the only place around that fits my schedule and budget (since I love my wing chun and don't want to curtail that at all) is a Judo club.
Any input on whether or not this art will give me a good grappling/groundwork foundation?
Thanks in advance!
05-04-2000, 09:23 PM
[This message has been edited by wisdom mind (edited 05-12-2000).]
05-05-2000, 06:54 PM
My two cents if it's worth anything is to, of course, concentrate mainly on your Wing Chun. Having said that I would like to point out that Judo is an excellent choice to supplement your training. Judo will help with your sensitivity as you will learn all about balance, yours and your opponents. If your truly learn Judo then you will not rely on strength but will learn to feel your opponenets energy and how to change attacks based on that feeling. Kind of like a whole body chi sau /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
In any event I would say take Judo. You will get standing techniques as well as groundwork. All in all I can't see any detriment, but that's just me and I am biased having done Judo prior to Wing Chun. I will say that Wing Chun itself does contain grappling and anti-grappling so you do not need to look outside of the system for these things. Still, it is never a bad thing to gain exposure to other things.
I'm *definitely* planning on maintaining my level of dedication to wing chun. It's my true love...and I don't doubt that its grappling and anti-grappling techniques are plenty adequate.
It's just that my personal shortcomings on the ground are so profound that I really need to spend at least one whole workout a week focusing on it. From what I've been reading about judo, it seems like it would complement wing chun really well. Not only for the sensitivity and technique-over-strength reasons you state, but it seems that in its genesis, it was a distillation of jujitsu styles kind of like how wing chun was (theoretically, anyway) a distillation of more complicated traditional kung fu.
AND, I am really getting to like just mixing it up with a partner, and looks like judo will have plenty of THAT!
05-06-2000, 07:47 PM
I see no problem with taking Judo in addition to your Wing Chun. I think you will find that they will compliment each other as you said.
There are two types of "mixing it up" in Judo practice. Both are refered to as Randori. Straight Randori is almost like a contest in that both players can atack at will. French Randori is kind of prearranged in that the players take turns, one attacks the other defends then they switch roles. As to how much ground work you do that will depend on your schools philosophy. Some will stress more on throwing and some more on groundwork. A good school will mix the two as you get points for both in competition.
The only thing I would keep in mind is that Judo is and was designed as a SPORT. Its techniques can be used in actual combat but the developement of Judo was to keep the art alive and thus its goal was geared towards sport and personal developement.
Good luck. If I can be of any assistance just ask. I am always open to learning so I would be interested in your take on both Wing Chun and Judo.
Yeah, the sport focus is the only reason I've had any pause at all while considering judo. But I've gotten nothing but positive responses about it, so I figure I'll just give it a go. Worst thing that can happen is I'll get some good workouts and learn how to fall down!
Careful with that offer for advice...just ask Jimmy Lin, I can go on and on and on with the questions. I only work 1 hour a night...leaves me plenty of time to come up with "yeah, but what if..." and "what do you think of..."
05-07-2000, 08:53 PM
Actually Judo was not orginally designed as a combative sports martial art. From my understanding it was in fact the chosen martial arts for Japan's police force and military a like was very different from today's version that is seen in the Olympics. There are some schools out there that still teach Judo as it as taught by Count Koma back in the day. As it is Judo can be very effective, a friend of mine is a blackbelt and is a real BA.-ED
05-07-2000, 09:40 PM
I don't want you to take this the wrong way but Judo was developed as a sport. Its developement is quite well documented and much is known of its founder Dr. Jigaro Kano. Dr. Kano studied JuJitsu for many years and incorporated many of its techniques into his own system. He chose the name Judo which translates roughly as Gentle Way as opposed to JuJitus which means Gentle Art in order to emphasize his focus on using the art to better ones own self developement. He removed many of the more "combative" techniques in order to make it safer for those playing it. It is also rumored that he was one of the first to utiilze colored belts to distinguish rank. Judo was developed at a time of restructuring in Japan. The Samuri were kind of on the way out along with many of the ideals and attitudes which led to such a society. Judo was designed as a sport in order to further ones self awareness and also to insure the arts survival.
As to Judo being the chosen art for Japans Military or Police force I would ask you to check your sources. It has always been my understanding that the Police were taught Aikijitsu which is a specialized version of JuJitsu and Aikido. They are also taught another art, which escapes me, dealing with only grappling and holding techniques. As to the military I can not say but doubt if Judo is the art of choice.
I am not saying that Judo is not an effective art for combat. I know many that can use the art as well, however, it is a sport. It was designed as a sport and it takes a highly skilled practicianer to utilize it in combat. Also, what one sees used in combat will differ in that it will utilize strikes and kicks, Atemi-Wazi prior to and in addition to throws. Unfortuneately most doing Judo never see this side of the art, much like those that do Tai Chi think it is only for sport.
Again, please do not take this as an attack or saying you are wrong and I am right. I could be mistaken and if so would welcome being corrected. I only ask that you verify your sources and let the rest of us know who and where you got your information. It could very well be that my sources are not as reliable. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have not hear dof Count Koma but to my knowledge Judo is only a little over a hundred years old prior to this there were various forms of JuJitsu.
05-07-2000, 11:21 PM
This is the articile I got some of my information on, here is the whole articile.
as I said before it orginally was not intended to be a sport.-ED
The History of Kodokan Judo
by Keo Cavalcanti
Judo had its origin in the ancient Japanese art of jujutsu, a system of hand-to-hand combat. The bushi of feudal Japan (samurai) are usually credited for developing jujutsu (at their time the art was known as Yoroi kumi-uchi, a grappling method for fighters fully clad in Japanese armor). However, the Nihon Shoki (the Chronicle of the Japanese nation) documents public unarmed competitions (hikara-kurabe) dating back to 230 B.C.
Jujutsu has been known by several names throughout Japanese history: taijutsu, yawara, kempo, kugusoku, kumiuchi, koshinomawan. What is unique to the art is that one did not use brute strength to overpower an opponent, but rather skill, finesse and flexibility. Economy of energy, balance, and grace were the outstanding hallmarks of the good jujutsu practitioner. Unlike the Western hand-to-hand fighter, the jujutsu fighter was expected to be soft and pliable, winning by appearing to yield.
In classical form, during the feudal period, jujutsu was part of the bushi training, along with archery, spearfighting, swordsmanship, horsemanship, maneuvering, and etiquette. Its importance grew with the rise of the bushi class after the late Heian period. Throughout subsequent periods of Japanese history (Kamakura, 1185-1336; Muromachi, 1336-1573 into the Tokugawa period, 1603-1868) the art became more diversified and specialized, being taught in schools (ryus). Ryus organized around different aspects of the art, perpetuating their founders' vision.
The schools differed in emphasis and strategy. Some specialized in throwing (nage), others in groundwork (osae, shime, kansetsu), and others in striking (atemi). In matters of strategy, some schools valued taking the initiative in combat while others preferred timely reaction to an opponent's aggression. Those that followed the principles of swordsmanship insisted on sudden, total attack. Others preferred to neutralize the opponent's attack once it was in motion.
Given the constant state of war in Japanese feudal history, ryus tested their vision of jujutsu on the battlefield, where the premium was on survival. The three hundred years of peace that followed the Japanese civil wars led to a change in the nature of the art. Under the harsh Tokugawa martial codes combats between bushi became rarer and heavy warfare far less frequent. On the other hand, unarmed combat became more common. The rise of the common citizen at the end of the period required that jujutsu techniques be adapted to the needs of everyday life.
At that time, several ryus lost their insistence on ceremonial or ritual posturing in favor of a more practical approach to hand-to-hand combat. By the end of the Tokugawa period, the ancient martial arts of Japan (Bujutsu) created for the warrior class began to lose importance as the martial ways (Budo) created for the commoner gained ascendancy. Budo was not simply a collection of fighting techniques but also a spiritual discipline, a way of life.
During the Meiji Restoration after 1868, the transition from Bujutsu to Budo was completed. Several branches of the martial arts changed names and orientation entirely. Kyujutsu became Kyudo, iai-jutsu became iaido, aiki-jutsu became aikido, and jujutsu became Judo. There was a shift from warfare techniques to everyday life principles, with the spiritual side of the arts being more emphasized. Schools now passed their tradition to students in the form of techniques, philosophy and codes of ethics. Students were expected to be fully versed on hand-to-hand combat, but also to embody the philosophy of the ryu's founders.
Dr. Jigoro Kano, founder of modern Judo, was born in the town of Mikage in the Hyogo Prefecture, on October 28, 1860. Shihan Kano never viewed the martial arts as a means to display physical prowess or superiority. As a pacifist, he studied them to find a way to live in peace with other human beings. In his youth Kano studied Jujutsu under a number of different masters. Sensei Teinosuke Yagi was his first teacher, but at the age of 18 he entered the dojo of Tenshin-Shinyo Sensei Hachinosuke Fukuda. Upon graduation from Tokyo University, he studied the Kito tradition under Sensei Iikubo. By his mid-twenties, Shihan Kano had been initiated into the secret teachings of both ryus.
Kano's search for a unifying principle for the techniques he learned led him to the first principle of Judo--Seiryoku Zenyo (maximum efficiency in mental and physical energy). To him, only techniques that kept practitioners from spending much physical and mental energy should be incorporated into the system. One should use the energy of one's opponent to defeat his or her aggression. He called the resulting body of knowledge Judo. To propagate his art Kano founded the Kodokan (the "school to learn the way") at the Eishoji Temple in 1882.
Kano built his system around three major sets of techniques: throwing (nage waza), groundwork (katame waza) and striking (atemi waza). The throwing techniques, drawn from the Kito ryu, were further divided into standing (tachi waza) and sacrifice (sutemi waza) techniques. Standing techniques included hand (te waza), hip (koshi waza) and foot (ashi waza) throws. Sacrifice techniques include full sacrifice (ma sutemi waza) and side sacrifice (yoko sutemi waza) throws.
Kano's groundwork and striking techniques were drawn more heavily from the martially oriented Tenshin-Shinyo ryu. Groundwork is organized into holds (osaekomi waza), strangulations (shime waza) and joint locks (kansetsu waza). While Kano taught groundholds earlier to his students, the secrets of shime and kansetsu waza were saved for those who had attained a higher ranking in the art. High ranking students were also expected to know the art of resuscitation (kappo), so as to conduct their training in a safe and responsible manner.
Judo's striking techniques included upper (ude ate) and lower limb blows (ashi ate). Among the striking techniques were those utilizing fists, elbows, hand-edges, fingers, knees and feet as striking points. Because of its lethal nature, Atemi waza was also taught exclusively to high ranking Judokas at the Kodokan.
Judo was taught in a well-structured process. Standing techniques were organized into five sets ranking from less strenuous or technically difficult to more advanced (the Gokyo no Waza). Ground and striking techniques were organized in sets also. The sets were introduced slowly as Judokas became more proficient in the art. Students were divided into mudansha (color belt level) and yudansha (black belt level). Mudansha students were ranked into five classes (kyus) while yudansha were ranked into ten degrees (dans). Ranks indicated the student's level of expertise in the art as different techniques were introduced at each new rank.
To complete the transition from jutsu (martial art) to Do (way of life), Kano added a strict code of ethics and a humanitarian philosophy to his newly created system. Kodokan instructors and students were expected from the beginning to be outstanding examples of good character and honest conduct. Any hand-to-hand combat outside of the dojo, public demonstrations for profit, or any behavior that might bring shame to the school could lead to suspension or expulsion from the Kodokan.
Kano's ultimate concern for the well-being of the whole individual and of the community is reflected in his teaching methods and in Judo's second guiding principle. Kano utilized four teaching methods in his dojo: randori (free practice of all Judo technique), kata (pre-arranged forms, considered the more technical rituals of the art), ko (his systematic lecturing), and mondo (periods of question and answer).
The debates between Shihan Kano and his disciples led him to the second principle of Judo, Jita Kyoei (the principle of mutual benefit and prosperity). Kano believed that the diligent practice of Judo would lead to the realization that one could not progress at the expense of others, that in mutual prosperity lied the key to any real progress in human life. He was so taken with the principle that he regarded its diffusion, through the practice of Judo, as his greatest mission in life.
Most of Judo's development took place around the turn of the century. In 1889 Kano traveled to Europe and America to promote his martial art. He would make as many as eight trips to other continents to propagate Judo before his untimely death at sea, on May 4, 1938.
The technical aspects of Judo came into full maturity in 1900 with the founding of the Kodokan Yudanshakai (association of black belt holders). On July 24, 1905 eighteen masters representing the leading Japanese Jujutsu ryus gathered at the Butokukai in Kyoto to join Kano's system. Kano's work had triumphed over Jujutsu in Japan, replacing the Tokugawa period aggressive martial arts with the more sophisticated way of life he had envisioned. The final touches were added in 1909 when the Kodokan became a foundation and in 1920 with the revision of the throwing techniques called the Gokyo no Waza. The art's intellectual and moral philosophy came into full being by 1922 with the foundation of the Kodokan Cultural Judo Society.
Between 1912 and 1952, when the International Judo Federation was founded, several Japanese experts immigrated to other continents, spreading Judo teachings. Sensei Gunji Koizumi, 7th Dan, went to Great Britain in 1918, founding the London Budokwai. Mikinosuke Kawaishi, 7th Dan, one of the world's foremost experts on Judo kata, went to France in 1922. Sensei Sumiyuki Kotani, 8th Dan in 1952, trained the first team of American Air Force Judokas at the Kodokan. That team became the seed of what is now the United States Judo Association.
As Judo spread throughout the Western world it slowly gained the form of a sport. Its eventual popularity in World and Regional Games and inclusion in the 1964 Olympic Games led more and more to an emphasis on the physical and competitive aspects of the art, sometimes at the expense of its intellectual, moral and spiritual underpinnings. In 1982 (on the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Kodokan) the Kodokan Judo throwing techniques, the Gokyo no Waza, were revised and expanded, then in 1997 the Kodokan added two additional throws.
05-08-2000, 12:03 AM
Thank you for the article. It may be me but I am not sure what is being presented which is different than what I have already stated. I credited the origins of Judo to be in the earlier forms of JuJitsu which were combat arts. However I still stand by my original statement that Jigaro Kano developed Judo for Sport. If I may add a quote from your article:
"Shihan Kano never viewed the martial arts as a means to display physical prowess or superiority. As a pacifist, he studied them to find a way to live in peace with other human beings."
The above would lead me to believe that combat was not Judos founders goal. I agree that Judo does contain Atemi-Wazi, which I mentioned earlier but this does not mean it is intended for real combat. All you have to do is look at the katas one needs to obtain Dan ranking and you will see they are not as realistic as some other arts.
I also have read several books and articles on Judo as well as having obtained Dan Status when a bit younger. I stick to my view; Judo was developed for sport. Its orignins may come from combat but Dr Kano intended Judo to be a sport. I also stick to my statement of Judo not being the art of choice of the Police in Japan.
Judo is an excellent art and I do not want to seem like I am putting it down. But, it is geared more for sport then realistic street combat. It is not unusual for Judoka to be hit several times before they can apply a throw. While a throw will end a lot of fights if done right, taking punishement in order to apply my technique is not my view of a true combat art. I also don't think the average Judoka would be as well versed in defedning against a knife as some other arts. Judo is a sport. Even in the most combat form it is still a sport.
Also please keep in mind that many Judoka in Japan also study Karate or another art. This is not to say that a sport art can not work on the street, just that it takes a bit more. Kendo is a sport but a good practicioner will be hard to defeat.
05-08-2000, 12:33 AM
One of the main reasons why Count Koma (oops meant Dr.Kano) invented Judo was to created a way for warriors to honorably submit without losing there life or an arm or leg and most importantly without losing there honor. Back then, in old Japan there was no tapping, if someone challaged you and had you in a armbar, your arm got broken no questions asked. That was one reason why Count Koma thought it was so important to include a different set of ethics with his art so you could tap and fight again another day. This is what I have been told by both a friend who is a blackbelt in Judo and from what I have read on the net. Judo orginally was not a sport but later became one. It was orginally created to replace jujutsu.-ED
[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 05-08-2000).]
05-08-2000, 12:44 AM
Perhaps I am dense but I have no idea who Count Koma is nor what he has to do with Judo. Judo did not exist until it was developed by Dr. Jigaro Kano in the late 1800s'. This is a little bit past the time of Fuedal Japan. Perhaps what you are referring to is not Judo but Jujitsu. As to methods of "honorably submitting" I suggest you read up on BUSHIDO which was and I guess to some still is the code of the Samuri. You will find there are ways to show respect to ones enemy as well as to surrender.
Please provide more detail as to this Count Koma is and what he has to do with Judo.
05-08-2000, 02:17 AM
Count Koma which means "Count of Combat" was the nick name for the Judo and jiu-jitsu master Mitsuo Maeda who in 1914 came to Brazil. He was undefeated in Judo and of 2000 mixed fights only lost two matches both to catch-as-catch-can wrestlers. He was one of Kano's top students. Dr. Kano invented Judo, his students at the time took it to the next level, but if you read that article I posted his reasons for inventing Judo become clear, it was not to be a sport but a way to avoid death matches, a new way of thinking it just progressed over time to become a sport.-ED
05-08-2000, 05:18 AM
Okay, now I know the "nickname" of this authority of Kodakan Judo. Could we have his real name?
Allow me to quote from one of the books I have on Judo. It is written by E.G. Bartlett and first published in 1962. The title is Judo and Self-Defense. Mr Bartlett was one of the members of the British Judo Association. This organization was founded in 1918 by Mr. G. Koizumi and was headed by a Mr. Tani. The organization was called The Budokwai and was established in London.
From page 11 I would like to offer the following quote:
"In 1882 he opened his own school, the Kodokwan, in Tokyo. As he progressed, Kano came to see that Ju-jitsu was more than a way of defence against attacks; it was a way of life that developed the intellect and the spirit. Kano selected those movements most suitable for practice as a sport from the many he had learnt, and he called the system he compiled "JUDO" as distinct from "Ju-jitsu". "JUDO" means the gentle way whereas Ju-kistu means the gentle art."
From the above we can see that Dr. Kanos intention was to develope a sport based on the earier art of Ju-jitsu. He called this "Sport" version Judo. By choosing to include his art in the do rather than in the jitsu family Kano made his intention clear. The art was developed for sport and self developement not combat.
As far as the King of Combat I would suggest he relied more heavily on Ju-jitsu than on Judo if he fought. I also would like to point out that the "death matches" you make reference to would have taken place with weapons not empty handed. Thus an empty hand art would not need to be developed in order to save lives in such an instance. Japan has a rich history of weapons based arts. Also, martial arts were almost the sole domain of the nobility prior to the start of this century. Empty hand methods of fighting became popular with the peasent class in order to defend against the Samuri. Although, the complete curriculum of the Samuri included such things as; Archery, Horsemanship, Empty-hand fighting and Swordsmanship.
I am sorry but I think the majority of documented history for Judo will present it as a Sport developed in the late 1800's in order to keep some methods alive during a reconstructionist phase when jistu arts were falling out of favor. If you examine any of the arts of Japan and compare do arts with jitsu arts you will see one is combat oriented while the other is geared towards sefl-developement.
I remain unconvinced of Judo being devloped as a fighting art. I admit its predecessar Ju-jitsu was a complete combat art but Judo was designed more for sport use.
05-08-2000, 05:19 AM
My appoligies I did not notice the counts real name included in the original post. Sorry I guess my eyes are failing me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Sihing and GinSue,
I hope you two realize that you are alternately talking me into and out of trying judo with every other post!
05-08-2000, 07:12 PM
My appoligies. By all means try Judo. Regardless of whether a sport or a combat art it is something which will be of beneift to your Wing Chun, IMHO. Judo will teach you the sensitivity which I mentioned as well as give you a firm grasp of the principles of balance. Both your own and your opponenets.
Forgive me for getting a little carried away. It just seems that today many try to make a case for things which are not always true. Some arts were designed specifically for combat whie others were not. This does not make any one better or worse than the other it just means you need to adjust your perspective. For example a .22 will kill you just as sure as a .45 but one is better designed for the job than the other. Both will work but one is designed for smaller game.
I will not post anymore on this subject in deference to not wishing to interfere with your training. I wish you the best and hope that you will explore Judo and any other art you wish. In the end it is your own decision which art suits you. Regardless of what I or others feel is the best you need to examine the arts in question and make your decision based on your own observations.
Also, GinSueDog, should you wish to discuss this further simply send me an email. As I said I am not trying to attack your position but most documentation would seem to indicate that Judo was designed for sport. I am open to researching this issue further, despite the fact that I am stubborn at times /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you wish to deiscuss this simply send me an email and we can continue.
05-08-2000, 08:46 PM
I did not feel attacked in anyway, I do enjoy a good debate. I may just take you up on your offer and continue the debate by email, lates.-ED
Boys, boys, boys!
I was enjoying the debate...I was just makin' a joke! Please continue...I'm learnin' a lot just lurking.
05-10-2000, 09:27 PM
There are writings on Judo by Kano that have been published. Why don't you check there? It's pretty clear that he didn't intend it to be the sport that it is today.
05-11-2000, 06:25 AM
I had not intended to respond as per my earlier post but there is no email for Ford Perfect.
I would like someclarification. Please provide the titles or the writtings you are referring to. I would be interested in researching them deeper since everything I have seen would indicate a different view.
BTW, have you ever studied Judo or is this all secondhand information? Not an attack just curiousity.
Please feel free to email me off list as I do not want to continue this debate for reasons already posted, at least not here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ReverendTim, I hope things are progressing well for you.
05-11-2000, 06:28 AM
I don't know what happened but out of curiousity I checked my own profile and nothing is there. Must have been due to the server problems. I will rectify this shortly. In the meantime anyone wishing to email me can reach me at:
firstname.lastname@example.org or Sihing73@Juno.com
05-11-2000, 09:09 PM
Sihing-- your basically right... but Judo has become more sport (randori) focused than Kano originally intended. My understanding is that Kano intended for Judoka to mutually benefit from the practice of Judo for building health and character--similar intent as the practice of Aikido, but not as "spiritual."
It sounds like your Judo history is from a BJJ source. I don't recall of ever hearing of Maeda as being a Kodokan Judo student--in fact I remember that he possibly studied a contempory (of Judo) jujutsu style that emphasized groundwork hence BJJ.
Judo is great.
If anyone wants references for the above info, let me know--it'll take a few days.
05-14-2000, 09:53 PM
Wierd. E-mail address should've been there. Let me know if you don't get me my mail.
The Brazil Judo Federation traces it's lineage back to Maeda as well. The Gracie's just modified Kodokan ne waza. I'm not taking anything away from the Gracie's because they obviously did an incredible job with their modifications. Judo wasn't always so lopsided in it's emphasis of standing techniques vs. ground techniques.
Hey, I went to my first judo class tonight!
I didn't get to work out, because the guy who runs the club's website had a different opinion on what constituted appropriate trial-lesson clothing than the instructor, but I watched, and really liked what I saw. They spent lots of time on groundwork, but plenty of time on throws and 'fit-ins.'
Next week, I'll have me a gi and start getting tossed around. The instructor was very psyched about seeing how all the wing chun chi sao affected my ability to avoid getting grabbed.
Thanks for all the info, y'all!
06-01-2000, 02:17 AM
Hi Reverend Tim,
For an interesting perspective on your judo question please visit:
Very interesting website. Thanks for the tip!
06-14-2000, 11:02 PM
[This message has been edited by MaFuYee (edited 06-23-2000).]
08-12-2000, 03:41 AM
I heard that one of wing chun's weak points is that it particularly vulnerable to the throwing arts, such as judo. I guess cuz you're working in the mid/close range alot. Anyone heard or seen this to be true?
08-12-2000, 08:04 PM
Not sure that I would agree that Wing Chu has a weakness as regards throwing arts. If any the weakness would perhaps be fighting once on the ground itself. Although, there are methods to deal with this situation as well.
Judo is a wonderful art and teaches one many things about balance. In order to perform a throw one must first disrupt the other persons balance. This can lead to a great understanding of the body and also give one great sensitivity. Wing Chun teaches one the same things through Chi Sau. Chi Sau is not just rolling your arms around and learning how to feel force from your opponents arms. It is about learning to feel and react to various types of energy. If trained properly you will be able to sense your opponenets energy and react to it. A good Chi Sau/Wing Chun persons will be able to draw an opponenet in or side to side or back based on the energy being given by the other person. In doing so he will be able to disrupt their balance and perform throws of his own. Also there is an exercise called Chi Gerk where one learns to perform Chi Sau with the legs. This ability can come in very handy in countering throws /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Judo is an excellent art and will add many things to ones Wing Chun. It would be unfair to state Wing Chun or Judo, or any other art, were superior. Wing Chun specializes in close range fighting and that is where one wants to be when using it, still one can fight at various ranges effectiviely using the same art. Judo also specializes in very close range as well, many of the throws, particularily Hip throws require body contact to be done effectively. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
neither is better or worse and neither has a specific weakness related to the other style.
09-10-2000, 03:29 AM
SiHing73, the other art police art taught is Chin Na.
09-10-2000, 04:22 AM
Considering the age of this post and my failing memory /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif could you please elaborate on your post. I would like to know which Police you are referring to. For example are you stating that the Japanese Police study Chin Na which is a Chinese art? Or are you implying that Police Departments in other parts of the world are taught Chin Na as part of the 'standard" curriculum? Please let me know which you mean so I can better grasp where you are soming from.
Considering you are referring to American Police departments I would tend to agree that many departments have implemented some sort of Controlling/Submission methods and many are based on Chin Na. Still, I am unaware of any standardized training program and would say that in most states most is set up individually by various departments. It is only in Japan, that I am sure of, that there is a standardized program which incorporates the study of Martial Arts into the Police Departments. As a matter of fact, and please correct me if I am wrong, it is my understanding that Japan "requires" training in the Martial Arts and even allows time to be put aside for a minimum to be maintained. Still, I think they would lean more towards Karate or Ju Jitsu/Aikido rather than a foreign method like Chin Na.
09-11-2000, 12:26 AM
I was told by a japanese friend of mine that all police in japan train in judo (called Police Judo). I also heard they teach a type of aikido geared for police. It makes perfect sence to chose these two arts as police want to control a suspect with out causing him permanent harm.
09-11-2000, 02:46 AM
Hi Master PO,
I was under the impression that the Police in Japan opt more for Aikijitsu (sp?). However I could be wrong. Would love more info on specifics if you could provide them.
09-16-2000, 01:22 AM
Are you training for fun or protection? Judo is a heavy Gi oriented MA. I don't know where you live, but nobody wears gi's on the street here. BJJ is gi oriented to a point, but most of the techniques are totally applicable to normal clothing. I would say ditch the Judo before you become "envolved" too much and find a BJJ or Sambo school. I know your schedule and budget isn't flexible, but teeth aren't cheap and time off from work recouperating in a hospital doesn't fit in most peoples schedule.
Those pine boards had it commin to them-besides, I'm not allowed to hit real people!!!
09-17-2000, 01:17 PM
Although I am sure you mean well I would tend to disagree about dropping Judo in favour of BJJ. While you are correct in stating that Judo does most of its work wearing Gi's so does BJJ. Also, BJJ spends too much time on the groundfighting aspect, IMHO, to be considered the most viable street art. It is great when faced one on one and with a nice clean surface to fight on. But, I do not relish the prospect of rolling around on the ground in an asphalt parking lot filled with broken glass, or with one or two of my opponents firends standing aorund.
The concepts of Judo, as well as most MA's, will translate into other situations, even BJJ /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and it is the concepts which you must be concerned with not the specific techniques. Judo trains one all about off-balancing an opponent and how to utilize his strength against them. It also covers a variety of throwing techniques, foot, hip, shoulder and sacrifice throws. In addition it covers groundfighting as well. All in all a pretty well rounded appraoch, even if it is really a "sport" rather than combat art /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Still, the concetps translate into viable street defense. If you understand them. Besides, Reverent Tim studies Wing Chun as well so I don't think his street defense will be that lacking. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
09-17-2000, 07:54 PM
I don't think the gi is much of a handicap or crutch when trained properly. If you learn the principles behind controlling your opponent in a standing or ground grapple, then you won't be dependant on the gi. This fact is especially true against untrained fighters. They are clueless when it comes to grappling.
Also, don't be so quick to dismiss BJJ for self-defense. That was what it was created for and has since evolved in the sport version that you see today. Different schools have different strengths and approaches though, so it's difficult to generalize one way or another. In my opinion, the watering down process has already begun. Like with any other art or system of fighting, it is what you make it.
09-17-2000, 10:59 PM
Please don't misconstrue my intention. I am not putting down BJJ or any other art. However, as it is or has ben presented here in the States it does not seem to be the most viable street defense art. I would tend to agree with you as to the "watering down" effect.
I think that all arts are effective when trained properly. The problem is in getting the proper training. In other words if an art is predominately used for sport it will reflect that. For example, have you ever gone to a tournament and seen guys leave themselves wide open or even present their back to an opponent because there were no points given for strikes to the back? Think about how these guys would fare on the street for real. I have said it before and I will say it again, Judo was designed for sport. However, that is not to say it can not be an effective street art when combined with Atemi Wazi etc. Bjj could be good in certain circumstances but not so goo din others.
If you read any MA magazine you will see all kinds of adds for the "ultimate" fighting system. Many of these claim to need little training to be effectively used by the average person. This is what I am against. Let's be realistic. If you train to deal one on one and go to the ground then in the street against more than one you will most likley have a problem. Likewise if I am a stand up fighter and am taken to the ground I will have more difficulty as well.
There is no ultimate art which will work for everyone in every circumstance. The key is to find an art you like and learn it to the best of your ability. I think that most who do this will find their art, whatever it may be, to more than meet their needs.
09-20-2000, 05:03 AM
i'm with you 100% on this one.no offense to ginsue,i like your posts,but from what i've read and seen documented on judo it was developed to be a sport.why would he take the combat applications out of jujitsu were it not?
it was taught in public schools as part of the curriculum to instill discipline.
when it was brought to the U.S. teddy roosevelt took lessons,and it was taught to women because it was believed to be empowering to them.
i believe my facts are straight,correct me if i'm wrong. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
09-20-2000, 05:14 AM
null<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and while i have alot of respect for BJJ,and am going to take it soon,it isn't the best answer for every situation either.
if there's more than one person looking to kick your ass then it might not be a good idea to grab one of them and roll around on the ground with them.it seems fairly obvious that you're not going to come out of it in very good shape
09-20-2000, 06:52 PM
Well, here is a piece of the article I posted at the beginning of this subject: "As Judo spread throughout the Western world it slowly gained the form of a sport. Its eventual popularity in World and Regional Games and inclusion in the 1964 Olympic Games led more and more to an emphasis on the physical and competitive aspects of the art, sometimes at the expense of its intellectual, moral and spiritual underpinnings. In 1982 (on the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Kodokan) the Kodokan Judo throwing techniques, the Gokyo no Waza, were revised and expanded, then in 1997 the Kodokan added two additional throws."
If you read the whole article from start to finish I think it clearly shows that Judo did not become a sport until it was interduced to the west and was suppose to be a way of life originally. As for BJJ, I say learn to kick one person's ass first before worrying about beating up multiple opponents.-ED
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist
09-22-2000, 02:06 PM
I think we can agree to disagree. Suffice it to say that neither of us will convince anyone of any different opinion then already had. In other words those that believe Judo was designed as sport will continue to believe that those that think it was more combat oriented will believe that. In the end does it really matter as far as this forum is ocncerned? Kind of like the old analogy of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I respect your right to your own opinion and while we may differ that does not mean we can not offer something to each other. I have enjoyed your posts and would agree that unless there is something NEW to be added we move on to other things. This is an interesting topic and could grow into so much more, once we get past the Sport or Combat sticking point.
So, having said that; lets all agree to leave sport or combat alone and move on, if the deisre is there, to other aspects of Judo. For example we could discuss the most effective thorws for short or tall people. Or we could discuss the principles behind some of the techniques.
Several early Judo pioneers here in Europe
was very critical towards the sportification of Judo.
I have a book by Opa Schutte,where he describes Judo in almost Aikidolike terms.
To him and his generation competition Judo was
just a small part.
Anybody familiar with Kime No Kata,or Kodokan Goshin Jutsu?
09-24-2000, 08:46 PM
I won't comment on why Judo was developed, but many historical conversations about the art can be found at http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/forum/index.cfm?forum_id=28
Many of the posters there can provide examples and cite sources to back them up.
11-08-2000, 08:16 PM
How grappling compliments your WC is totally up to you. I would recommend going into any grappling class with the attitude not of becoming a master grappler in that style but of pulling out the lessons which apply to you. After all wasn't it Bruce Lee who said "...absorb what is usefull..."?
Some of the posts have made reference to the fact that Judo and BJJ rely alot on grabbing a heavy GI top which one's opponent will not be wearing on the street. Some schools of jujutsu have the philosophy that the highest form or level of grappling is to be able to grapple w/o the use of ones hands. What they mean by this is that your hands should not be busy trying to grab or hold your opponent ( hot summer day, sweaty thug not wearing a shirt ) but instead should be free to strike your opponent. Which leads me into my next comment...
Should there be a distinction between grappling and striking? Is there a fine line between the two? Sometimes I get the impression that people have 2 mindsets. The first is the "grapple" mindset and the other is the "strike" mindset. What about a third option? The option of continually striking throughout the grappling technique?
All comments welcome,
A freelance ninja /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
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