6 1/2 or Six Point & Half?

[LoneTiger108]

Just something that interest me immensely.

How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'? And how does it affect your interpretation of Wing Chuns lesser known stick/pole plays?

[tjwingchun]

You know my thinking for the pole with my interpretation of the techniques and how I envisage they could be used, as far as translation is concerned I leave that to experts in languages, I stick to being a "cunning linguist" :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe I shouldn't have just asked the question straight away...

I'm not saying that you need to be a linguist professor to understand your Wing Chun, but I would never have been given access to anything if I didn't show the interest in learning Chinese (Cantonese).

I admit that I'm crap at conversation, but I do know a little about curriculums and terminologies. This has been my downfall really, as there are no people to chat to other than fellow 'Jun Mo' students and they're all over the place these days lol!

What is the name of everyones 1st Point Technique? 2nd 3rd etc? It intrigues me, as I've said before, as I have still to see a 'form' like the one passed down from Lee Shing. The version I'm on about here is only taught by Sifu Austin Goh and Sifu Joe Lee, my 'Uncles'.

This is what it looks like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExClVQ7CdVs

[Vajramusti]

'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'=6 1/2 points pole.

There are more than 6 1/2 strikes with the pole. The name is not because of 6 1/2 strikes IMO.

Thanks for sharing the Goh clip-I had seen to before. He looks "energetic"- but I would rather not do it that way at least for training..

Ip man was already old when he was filmed with the pole at a HK police gathering. A well known
WC businessman bought that film and is most likely sitting on it....though he has shown it to some students. Sheesh.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'=6 1/2 points pole.

There are more than 6 1/2 strikes with the pole. The name is not because of 6 1/2 strikes IMO.

Thanks for sharing the Goh clip-I had seen to before. He looks "energetic"- but I would rather not do it that way at least for training..

Ip man was already old when he was filmed with the pole at a HK police gathering. A well known
WC businessman bought that film and is most likely sitting on it....though he has shown it to some students. Sheesh.

joy chaudhuri
Hi Joy, some WC lineages including TWC do have 6 1/2 actual strikes though there are more blocks/parries.
Phil

[anerlich]

Phil, Joy, I think it also depends how you do the counting.

Is it me, or is this thread being ignored!

You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.

[Vajramusti]

I know Phil. Wing chun is a diverse world.

Andrew- Of course - depends on how one counts. Not being coy atleast not intentionally.

But if you look at some possible basic strikes -not pure "blocks"( the kuit on the kwan:not more than one sound) there can be many more than
6 strikes.
For starters-
Top of the head, center of the forehead, wind pipe cavity, chest, solar plexus, dan tien, groin, both sides- temple, sides of the neck, hands, elbows, knees, ankles. shoulders, colar bone indentation etc. Too many "points"---that is why I am skeptical of the name coming from 6 1/2 strike points. Each strike would involve different manipulations of the pole.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

I know Phil. Wing chun is a diverse world.

Andrew- Of course - depends on how one counts. Not being coy atleast not intentionally.

But if you look at some possible basic strikes -not pure "blocks"( the kuit on the kwan:not more than one sound) there can be many more than
6 strikes.
For starters-
Top of the head, center of the forehead, wind pipe cavity, chest, solar plexus, dan tien, groin, both sides- temple, sides of the neck, hands, elbows, knees, ankles. shoulders, colar bone indentation etc. Too many "points"---that is why I am skeptical of the name coming from 6 1/2 strike points. Each strike would involve different manipulations of the pole.

joy chaudhuri
Hi Joy, according to some WC lineages the 6 1/2 strikes are the motions used which can strike various targets. Not the "many" target areas themselves. There are clearly 6 distinct strikes to cause damage. The half strike is another thing.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, Joy, I think it also depends how you do the counting.



You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.
Was this aimed at me or Joy? I don't think either of us said or implied that we had some special knowledge above other wingchunners.

[Vajramusti]

Phil,

I let it go---depends on how one counts---I count more than 6 strikes-not just many more points.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Was this aimed at me or Joy? I don't think either of us said or implied that we had some special knowledge above other wingchunners.

Neither. At the OP.

[imperialtaichi]

The pole form according to Wong Seung Leung and Tsui Seung Tin line:

The first six moves are for striking. The seventh (Lau Sui, or Running Water) is for redirection. Hence six and a half point.

I've seen students of both Wong and Tsui doing the pole. Similar moves, different flavour.

Cheers,
John

[Liddel]

Anyone ever think it was related to the length of the "traditional" pole ?
(Meaning the one most commonly used....)

Although these days it wouldnt relate exactly to 6 1/2 of anything as there are many different measuring units....

This is the idea of what was passed to me ...

Lok Yiu - Yau Soong Ying - DREW

Anyone know what the common measuring unit is in China and how long its been used...or what it once was..... ?

[LoneTiger108]

You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.

I personally have never really been welcomed into the Wing Chun family as my Sifu has always been different, low key and non-political. I do think I have a rare insight though, as I know of very few people who have seen what I have seen, trained what I trained and lived how I did. Very few. But don't we all feel like this? This isn't intended as a boast, as I trained alongside guys who had more than 15 years in Wing Chun before they met Sifu! They were all oldskool, and if I do have peers it is only them I would refer to, although I call them 'Brothers' and they know who I am.

I started this thread because of a confusion, or shall I say 'lack' of enthusiasm for the Pole/Stick training in Wing Chun. That's all. The translation, IMHO, means so much in interpretation. This quote, I feel, says it all:

Words from an Wing Chun non-expert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pole form according to Wong Seung Leung and Tsui Seung Tin line:
The first six moves are for striking. The seventh (Lau Sui, or Running Water) is for redirection. Hence six and a half point.

NOTE: The Seventh. This was how it was explained to us on numerous occassions. The 'Half Pole' was NEVER described as being a 'point'. The Half Pole was like the quarter staff and used for redirection as suggested, evading and parrying at close range. Yes, I say 'close range'.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by starting this thread, or even for entering this forum in the first place, but I honestly want to hear from people who have a similar viewpoint. Our Families stick was famous while Lee Shing was alive. He was known as 'King Of The Stick' as a young man! Never needing to learn it from Yip Man, but assist in its refinement he may have done IMHO.

I have my own reservations about sharing my mind on forums like this one as I too am in semi-retirement at 32!! lol!! There is just no reason for me to teach/coach in todays climate as I feel that the interest really isn't there...

After years looking at this site, I took it upon myself to write here without any of my Family knowing. Soon it may all just stop as I get the impression this is going to be a difficult journey...

[chisauking]

LT:

An old Chinese saying comes to mind: 'dui ngu taane kam' , which means playing piano to a cow. No matter whether you are playing good or bad, the cow wouldn't appreciate it.

In some ways, it's the same on this forum. No matter how good your post, some may not agree; no matter how poor your post, some agrees. It all depends on ones experience, comprehension, skill level, etc., etc.

If you decide only to part-take upon good reception \ responses, then you may as well pack up and go home. FWIW, I enjoy some of your post (needless to say, I don't agree with everything) and I think it's good contribution to an otherwise 'bickering' forum.

Carry on if you enjoy the banter, but remember that only 'weak minded' people needs to seek other's approval.

[mad101dan]

According to Robert Chu

The pole, as taught on the Red Junks, was comprised of six-and-a-half conceptual points (ideas), hence it was called "six-and-a-half-point pole". The Siu Lam Weng Chun of Fung Siu-Ching included the points rise, obstruct, point, deflect, cut, and circle, and the half-point leak. While it is said the half-point is separated due to its predominantly defensive usage, all of these concepts can and should be applied defensively or offensively, as circumstances dictate. Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct. In the Cho family (descended from Opera performer Yik Kam) and Yuen Kay-San systems, the spearing pole is considered the half-point since it is the core and can come from any other movement .

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_weapons.html

[LoneTiger108]

LT:

An old Chinese saying comes to mind: 'dui ngu taane kam' , which means playing piano to a cow. No matter whether you are playing good or bad, the cow wouldn't appreciate it.

In some ways, it's the same on this forum. No matter how good your post, some may not agree; no matter how poor your post, some agrees. It all depends on ones experience, comprehension, skill level, etc., etc.

If you decide only to part-take upon good reception \ responses, then you may as well pack up and go home. FWIW, I enjoy some of your post (needless to say, I don't agree with everything) and I think it's good contribution to an otherwise 'bickering' forum.

Carry on if you enjoy the banter, but remember that only 'weak minded' people needs to seek other's approval.

Thanks for the comments chisauking. Nice to know someone is at least 'enjoying' my little posts. I can only say that I hope you don't think that I would 'need approval' to be here. I am big enough and old enough to make up my own mind, but believe me when I say that many of my Family will probably use the saying you talk of here!

Being trained behind closed doors has its disadvantages, as at times I felt completely controlled by Sifu, but as I aged he relaxed and once I had kids he literally ordered me to go home! lol! I find nothing wrong in this submissive attitude as he was 'as a father' to me for many years.

I will carry on posting regardless as I do like the banter, meaningful or not! But time is against me as always...

[Phil Redmond]

According to Robert Chu . . .
Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct.

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_weapons.html
The blocks/parries are: Biu kwan, Tan kwan, Bong kwan, Fuhk kwan, Gahn kwan, Jut kwan, Chow kwan. There are still 6 distinct strikes and 1 half strike. And there is chi kwan practice as well.

[LoneTiger108]

The blocks/parries are: Biu kwan, Tan kwan, Bong kwan, Fuhk kwan, Gahn kwan, Jut kwan, Chow kwan. There are still 6 distinct strikes and 1 half strike. And there is chi kwan practice as well.

I can understand your post Phil, and I'm happy that you're contributing here, but there may be other versions of the Pole that use varied terminologies for the techniques being trained, let alone the theories behind the form.

I would appreciate your comments in this thread, as I know my families pole is not very well known...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42773

[byond1]

My take!

The Look Dim Boon Gwun, Sam Dim Boon Gwun, and the Sap Sam Cheung Look Dim Boon Gwun are names, for differant pole methods, typicaly found within the WCK system though differant pole forms and methods can be found in other Kung Fu branchs, with the same names.

Like all things in WCK, the traditional 'naming' of something, contains ideas about "it" and the concepts and principles involved. 6 and half point pole doesnt mean you can ONLY have 6.5 attacks. It means Litteraly 6 and a half concept pole. A "dim" or point, is way byond a "s'trike". A "dim", is a "Yiu Dim" or "important concept".
While the Dim/Points are concepts, each is "exemplified and manefested in one specific kind of use or strike. So all 6.5 points, and the sometimes included full 7th, have 7 basic strikes/uses.

This pattern and layering of knowledge is found in the entire WCK system. Ok Tan Sau. Look at SLT. We know WCK is a princiiple and concept driven art. We have a Concept of Tan, and a Ging that goes along with it. Really it can be applied anyway ones imagination can, as long as you remain in the WCK context thats outlined in the Principles. But in the SLT form, the Tan Sau concept, is expressed and manefested in the most basic and logical us for said concept.Which is also a litteral technique or strike(with the half point)

So I think the 6.5 points are concepts first and foremost, but each can be applied litteraly as strikes, as found within the forms.

There is so much variation in WCK on everything, we cant even agree on the Half Point. And the "water dripping' pole you mentioned, in YKS Pole, is one of our regular points.
The Half point, is a CORE concept that is applied in every aspect of ones WCK, and has nothing to do with "Lan Gwun" or Sart Gwun typicaly seen in many H.K pole forms IMO.

B

[byond1]

Several posts, just while i was writing mine!! I cant keep up.

I agree with Roberts statement that Cho and YKS use "Chuen Cheung" as the Half point.

I disagree with the statement that Fung Siu Chings pole form Half point is "Lau" or Leak. Yuen Kay Shans pole form, IS Fung Siu Chings pole form. Fung lived with Yuen for the last 3 years of his life, and than the Yuens burried him and officiated at his funeral. Also the PURE Tang Family art, removed from the Modern 'weng chun" branchs represent one of the best pole forms I have seen, and is related to the YKS system (and/or vice versa)

Andreas Hoffman ~says~his pole method is that of Fung Siu Ching. He teachs that the 6 pole concepts are applied to half of his system, while the Half point of Lau/leaking is the other Half of the system he teachs. As in Lau is the most important and is Half of what you always want to do or keep in mind. If you want to unravel the "Modern" Weng Chun Myth, you need only visit :

www.wingchunpedia.org

and look up entries involving :

Dai Duk Lan
Lo Family
Dong and Chu Family
Tang family
Cheng Kwong
and
Andreas Hoffman

B

[couch]

*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."

Just thought I'd share.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."

Just thought I'd share.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik
Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil

[LoneTiger108]

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned.
Phil

I believe, IMO, that what you're referring to here is what we used to call the 'Half-Moon' motion prior to thrusting with a point. From what I can remember this was also a 'Chi' cultivating exercise which helps to raise the intent up to the chest before releasing through the arm and fingers.

I don't think my 'knowledge' is special either Phil, but I do belive I have had access to a 'special' environment concerning this tool, or weapon as it was a standard for all of us. I am very proud of my experiences with my Sifu and I know that this was an ongoing argument as when I first heard of the form it was refferred to as the 6 & half point pole. Later, we all decided that it made more sense being the 6 Point & Half Pole due to our distinct Half Pole Set.

Please consider that I'm talking of a whole 'Form' here, which would have been impossible to practice in a small home in Hong Kong! Adjustments were normally made for this reason and I feel that what I have seen from Yip Mans version the points and motions are there, but the stance/leg/stepping work is minimized completely. A reference to 'hidden' theories was the norm and I feel that Lee Shing hid nothing from his way of the stick, as the stick was his life...

[couch]

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil

I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward

Maybe when I'm back in town (I'm away next week), I could Youtube myself. ;)
I look forward to your e-mail, Phil!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[LoneTiger108]

I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward

Kenton, I have to thank you for this insight as I personally do nothing like this with the pole form I studied. I have seen this type of training/form though and I do recognize what you may mean by 'poke in horse' as we refer to this posture as 'Dai Yat Dim' or 'First Point' in English. Maybe what you're doing here is actually training a set for assisting your understanding of one point?

My Uncle Austin Goh has shown a '3 Point' exercise on Youtube, and its quite similar in places:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNU4B4BToIE

This clip looks more like what you described IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJadrTsQZCo

[couch]

Kenton,
This clip looks more like what you described IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

Yup, that's half of it!

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJadrTsQZCo

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.

My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik

[sihing]

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.

My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik

Hi Kenton:)

I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.

James

[couch]

Hi Kenton:)

I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.

James

No stress...

I remember him teaching it at one of the summer seminars. I have a VHS tape of the one seminar with you performing the dummy. Just no way at this time to convert it.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[LoneTiger108]

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

I think you may have got the Monkey Staff confused here! A Monkey Staff, as far as I'm aware, utilizes the 'character' of the Monkey and usually is performed with the famous 'Staff' (solid metal, possibly with brass ends). It also has a very powerful Half-Pole technique, concentrating on turning and swirling etc. With this in mind, the Sum Nung example does not have the Monkey Character.

The 'exercise' I see is another way of separating the Half-Pole from the Six Points, of which I am also familiar with as this is what the Lee Shing Family tend to practice. And thats what I believe this clip to be. Speaking from experience, when we demonstrated in public there were always slight changes that were made depending on the environment. As an example I had to alter our sixth point due to the cieling being very low, I had to step backwards instead of forwards as the audience was too close etc. These things happen sometimes, and unfortunately when 'forms' like this are seen they are scrutinised and often disregarded due to lack of information or understanding.

Overall, its a very neat 'classic' set with Half-pole (quarterstaff) techniques being practised equally on both sides with the various steppping work associated with this part of the Six Point Half Pole. Honestly, if you have never practised this set/idea you may never find the clip familiar. It has definately not been 'added' or 'stolen'! All the information about this clip is within the Six Point & Half Pole Form I am familiar with.

Hence, the title of this thread...

ps. I would still like to see the 'other half' of the Pole described by Couch, are there any clips of Wong Shun Leungs form anywhere on the net?

[Simple_easy]

LUK DIM BUN KWAN - Six and Half POINT Pole Techniques

This name come from the marks left by the pole when it strikes a paper surface for example.

Each of the 6 techniques, when strike a paper target, leave a round or oval hole.

The "half technique" leaves a crescent or half-moon shaped hole.

[k gledhill]

:D
it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

;)

[Simple_easy]

:D
it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

;)

LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.

Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)

Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"

[LoneTiger108]

Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"

Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...

When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!

I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.

I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...

[k gledhill]

LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.

Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)

Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"


lmao ! so I have one shot ..or else, and im not allowed to deflect and strike more than once..hmmmm :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

lmao ! so I have one shot ..or else, and im not allowed to deflect and strike more than once..hmmmm :rolleyes:

Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!

Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.

Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!

Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...

[k gledhill]

Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...

When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!

I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.

I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...

explain your thinking more.... what is your idea for the '1/2 pole '?

[k gledhill]

Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!

Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.

Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!

Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...


why else would he be pointing a loaded pole at me ? :D [ you are not missing the idea , but not mentioning the fact that this is why we simply strike to kill ya in one move .... we dont know what the other guy can do , how good he is...how many 'notches' does he have on his pole ??? so treat them all with the same 'extreme prejudice' and respect , never underestimate your opponent , a dying man always has one last action....]

old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...

[LoneTiger108]

old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...

So, K, what's your interpretation of the Cantonese name for our Pole Set? Is it Six Point(s) & Half Pole or Six and a Half Point Pole??

Fortunately for me, like yourself I believe, I learnt my Pole from a 'hands-on' perspective and restrained from believeing that seventies movies contained 'original training' like Simple_easys poking holes in rice paper. Nice for accuracy, but as far as distinguishing my points from my half? Maybe in the context of angular and square hitting you would get these resuts, but still doesn't explain why our form carries such a name... and whether we have all just got its meaning 'Lost in Translation'!

[Vajramusti]

Several different explanations have been given for the name of the kwan. Name puzzles are good to play with but more important are the nature of the motions.
FWIW Austin Goh's staff work is not my cup of tea. I do not think treating the kwan like a quarter staff is a good idea developmentally. Of course in the heat of action- different adjustments are possible.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

I explained before ....it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

[CFT]

LoneTiger108 - I've not been following in detail so my apologies. Are you are saying there are 2 separate pole/staff sets? The half-pole set used like a quarterstaff as seen in sifu Austin Goh's videos, and then the more "normal" 6-1/2 point pole set? Do you have a half-point movement in the latter?

Surely they are actually different weapons? The 6-1/2 point pole is trained using a long tapered pole, whereas your half-pole looks like it is uniform in cross-section and much shorter.

[LoneTiger108]

First off CFT, yes I am saying that there are two distictly different Pole forms I have seen in Wing Chun. That which I've seen from the Ip Family, and that I have seen from the Lee Family. Both are 'totally different' in look, but I do believe they are portraying the same concepts. Lee Shing, however, preferred more traditional stick plays to help new students learn prior to the heavier pole being introduced.

I personally have practiced with both. Stick fighting isn't the same as pole fighting as preferences tend to vary on 'power generation' to start with. I also have to point out that the Sum Nung Set I posted in this thread is not 'mine' or Lee Shings, and I'm sure someone from this family can enlighten us as to 'why' this set was created. On reflection, Sum Nungs Pole Set is also sligtly different from Lees & Ips.

Before I go into an explanation, I have to ask a question:

How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

One palm facing up, the other down (which one depends on your Sifu lol!) How we tend to distingush the 'half set' from the 'point set' is that the half pole tends to use the same hands, ie both palms facing down. It is only within Lee Shings pole that I have seen the practitioner then hold the pole in the middle, utilising both ends for close quarters more so than the points, where we tend to stay at one end of the pole using our longest ranges.

However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...

Another 'saying' I've heard numerous times in the Lee Family is this:

"Without the stick, the father of all weapons, a pole is of no use."

[LoneTiger108]

A few clips of my Sifus daughters and his elder students at Seni'01 can be found here:

http://www.junmo.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=107

Note that all of the 'stick' clips are examples of Lee Shings Stick Plays, which are obviously not to be confused with standard 6 Point & Half Pole sets.

I will try to answer questions anyone may have, or you can always contact Jun Mo directly through the site.

[k gledhill]

I hate to rain on your event ...but the pole videos...thats not vt pole, its made up , from what ? who knows.

[LoneTiger108]

I hate to rain on your event ...but the pole videos...thats not vt pole, its made up , from what ? who knows.

Thanks for that k, I wasn't expecting such a b&w response so soon, especially from someone who, again, failed to even read what I wrote.

If only I knew what 'vt pole' was?! I don't believe any of the 'stick plays' here will be familiar to you as I did say:

"Note that all of the 'stick' clips are examples of Lee Shings Stick Plays, which are obviously not to be confused with standard 6 Point & Half Pole sets."

One thing wrong with people like yourself is that you throw out wild 'thats not vt' comments when something doesn't live up to 'your' image. Again, I am surprised at a WSL student being so ignorant but I hold no grudges and make no false claims.

The stick plays are real. They are not 'made up'. Austin Gohs Pole Form is as close to Lee Shings image as Joseph Lees. And Lee Shing knew WSL quite well apparently, not the same generation maybe but they had mutual respect. Sifu Joseph Man (who's knowledge you're dismissing) will be celebrating 30 years teaching next year, and his style of teaching has changed many times over this period. An elder to Austin and Joe Lee and even to Joseph Cheng and most others you would have heard of (if you researched us at all)

A great thing about being taught how to express yourself through Wing Chun by a known Master is that you can teach pretty much what you like, when you like and how you like. As long as it can be exlained.

Which is why I asked for questions, not narrow minded 'knee jerk' reactions to something you're obviously not familiar with...

[k gledhill]

My apologies :D ...I lived in london for 14 years , i know all the names mentioned, Ive met and observed them too...Austin Goh :D kung fu clown amongst the local's ...even gives diplomas out, lmaorotf ;)....

you yave "frogus in da wellus" syndrome ...ask your teacher about the chinese story of the frog in a well & the cricket...

Your arrogance suits your situation. an arrogant froggy ....ribbet

[LoneTiger108]

My apologies :D ...I lived in london for 14 years , i know all the names mentioned, Ive met and observed them too...Austin Goh :D kung fu clown amongst the local's ...even gives diplomas out, lmaorotf ;)....

you yave "frogus in da wellus" syndrome ...ask your teacher about the chinese story of the frog in a well & the cricket...

Your arrogance suits your situation. an arrogant froggy ....ribbet

There's that word again! You need a mirror as you obviously have had the blinkers on whilst writing your own 'arrogant' comments I'm afraid. Please feel free to explain how my posts are arrogant? (ribbet)

So what if you've 'observed' people from your 'time in London'! WTF?? Do you KNOW anyone from Lee Shings 1st generation?? Better still, have you met my Sifu and 'observed' his teachings? How has your Sifu influenced your attitude towards others? I suppose anyone who doesn't 'look' like Ip Man isn't Wing Chun then and that will include everyone from the mainland too lmao!

I have an idea for you k (Kevin?) Why don't you ask my Sifu yourself about your little story, as I find it a shame you even know such crap and obviously have an interest in these folklore lessons more than learning anything new about Wing Chun curriculae. Everyone told me that the 'family' was dying, and it's narrow minded insult throwers like you who are helping this happen.

Well, make that call and pay him a visit next time you're in London and I'm sure he will let you watch a class, take notes, ask any questions you like! Hell, maybe he'll even let you have a spar or something, knowing his no-nonsense approach!

Most of the people I've met like you k became his students, as they couldn't even answer his simplest questions. Many of them also had more than 15 years experience in Wing Chun, with 'many' other Sifu, so any judgement should be left to you actually putting yourself out just the once to find out for yourself. Better still ask Sifu Potter to explain how he knows my Sifu (you must know him too right?)

[LoneTiger108]

Actually, I don't even know why I get myself worked up over your insulting posts. Heard so many things over the years and still nobody has been able to even answer some of my questions, let alone my teachers'.

[k gledhill]

I met clive and did chi-sao with him once , hands on experience :D he was meant to be the head rep for WSL at the time :D ...Go ask Desmond Spencer in south london. he is doing something that might make you think again....its WSl thinking ;)
as for Lee Shing ...your deluding yourself.

btw I was a froggy in a well once too so dont feel alone , until Desmond fell into my well.....
you have to feel...not talk. Talking is an intellectual form of combat...VT is hands on , if it doesnt work you will find out REALLY QUICK .

Eveyone gets upset when they are told what they are doing is crap...I did , but I met a lot of guy's who similarly had spent time with 'name sifu's' who also taught a stylized version ....how do you know ...walk on...

[Ernie]

...your deluding yourself.
K .

Kevin ,,,,, that was just brutal [ simple , direct and ,,well you know the rest ,,] but still brutal :cool:



LoneTiger108 [Heard so many things over the years and still nobody has been able to even answer some of my questions, let alone my teachers]]

Did you ever consider the faint possibility that your '' questions '' were irrelevant ?:rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Im trying to help .... being brutal is what is needed sometimes , or we give room for , perhaps, maybe ...all words. I was in the London 'loop' of Vt i knew all and saw all and touched all...I dont just speak to annoy. Been there before you maybe ;) just sharing !

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;814362]I met clive and did chi-sao with him once , hands on experience :D he was meant to be the head rep for WSL at the time :D ...Go ask Desmond Spencer in south london. he is doing something that might make you think again....its WSl thinking ;)
as for Lee Shing ...your deluding yourself.QUOTE]

Well, I see the insults are also thrown at your own family, and in public. Nice one! :eek:

I will check out Desmond, if he comes so highly recommended, as I am open to learn something new just as much as most who post on here. Any site, link number I can get hold of him on??

[CFT]

I will check out Desmond, if he comes so highly recommended, as I am open to learn something new just as much as most who post on here. Any site, link number I can get hold of him on??Desmond Spencer

Address:
Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3
London
United Kingdom

Telephone: +44 (0)2087767705

Information: Sunday at the Swiss Cottage Community Centre Trophy room, on Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3, times 2:30pm to 5:00pm. Tuesday and Thursday in South London Area, times 8:00pm to 10:00pm.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks very much CFT! What a rapid response, do you train with Desmond? What can I expect to see at his school?

I couldn't get to the NW sessions though due to work, any info on the South London classes as I'm familiar with the area, especially Brixton.

[Ernie]

I'm not one to waste time on forums with '' made up nick names '' so I leave with this
we have all had a case of the dreaded '' Sifu-itus or Linage-itus '' and we get all wrapped up in our comfort zone blanket with a all the warm little fuzzies that come with it .
we think were special , our Sifu is special and our linage is special , and were so smart for picking the right place to be and train ,,, happens to us all it's part of the allure LOL

Reality is it's mainly BS and a pseudo pyramid / marketing scam

when you look at combat in it's raw form , it's really not that complicated 2 hands 2 feet body mechanics dominate positioning and the individual attributes to get there set it up and make the most out of it ...

when you see this ,,, you see through most of the junk that's out there

nothing wrong with preserving your family way if that's what your into just most of the ''training methods '' are dated and irrevalant in combat .. honest people will point that out .

you should also check out Kev Bell in South Hampton


PS... Kevin still doing research ;)

[k gledhill]

I throw stones at myself first :D I am who you are too...we are all very similar. :D Im just trying to get rid of the bs factor like ernie said , guys are making a living off you ....;)

[k gledhill]

Desmond Spencer

Address:
Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3
London
United Kingdom

Telephone: +44 (0)2087767705

Information: Sunday at the Swiss Cottage Community Centre Trophy room, on Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3, times 2:30pm to 5:00pm. Tuesday and Thursday in South London Area, times 8:00pm to 10:00pm.



hes a nice guy , hope you find something ....ribbet ..thas me ribbeting not you ;)

[LoneTiger108]

I'm not one to waste time on forums with '' made up nick names '' so I leave with this
we have all had a case of the dreaded '' Sifu-itus or Linage-itus '' and we get all wrapped up in our comfort zone blanket with a all the warm little fuzzies that come with it .
we think were special , our Sifu is special and our linage is special , and were so smart for picking the right place to be and train ,,, happens to us all it's part of the allure LOL

Reality is it's mainly BS and a pseudo pyramid / marketing scam

Sorry to actually 'care' about my teacher, his reputation and the memory of Lee Shing! I can relate to exactly what you're saying here, except I didn't 'pick' my teacher from a bunch and he didn't 'choose' me from a line up. It was something more than that, as it was with the five of us that went through the harder times.

One of the reasons we all drifted was because of the pyramid like scams you talk of here, except it wasn't exactly like that for me personally as I never really 'paid' to learn. Maybe most people just have a reaction to a single 'head', but I never really saw any issues in that.

I have never once said that I still train with him, yet peoples impressions of me are already full of the 'young newbie' stereotype.

I also only really learnt a small amount, in comparison to my elders who have been involved in Wing Chun since the seventies. They talked like you do too, especially about previous Sifus sometimes, but they understand why it all happened, and especially who Lee Shing 'was'! :cool:

[CFT]

Thanks very much CFT! What a rapid response, do you train with Desmond? What can I expect to see at his school?I don't train with Desmond, but I probably would if I still lived in NW London. I've got the information because at one point I was looking into training the WSL method - nothing came of it except finding out about various teachers scattered around the UK.

Just give him a ring and see where it takes you.

[LoneTiger108]

I throw stones at myself first :D I am who you are too...we are all very similar. :D Im just trying to get rid of the bs factor like ernie said , guys are making a living off you ....;)

Again, k! If you had read any of my otHer posts about how I learnt, you would have realized that my tuition cost me nothing (financially) as Sifu refused my payments. The 'money' factor only came into play when it became obvious some students just didn't want to learn how to teach properly, so they were expelled, and charged money when they returned when they couldn't find anywhere else to train like we did.

Lee Shing himself also never 'made a living' from his Martial Art knowledge, and that is something I do know. He was a millionaire Restauranteur! His wife and grand daughter have both personally assured me that this was 'just the way he was'. I'm also not saying that charging money is wrong, it just needs to be well managed and thought out beforehand.

I feel sorry for people that are drawn into all that 'Martial Arts Career' madness, as I feel it should always be about what you can give back to society, not what you can take away...

[Ernie]

Sorry to actually 'care' about my teacher, his reputation and the memory of Lee Shing! I can relate to exactly what you're saying here, except I didn't 'pick' my teacher from a bunch and he didn't 'choose' me from a line up. It was something more than that, as it was with the five of us that went through the harder times.



I'm sure everyone has there own sob story and persoanl rational [ part of the TMA mind f uck ] what ever floats your boat man ;)


LoneTiger108-- have never once said that I still train with him, yet peoples impressions of me are already full of the 'young newbie' stereotype.

Last bit of advice -- it's not the newbie thing it's your an overzealous linage banner waver ,,, no one really cares and most of us have learned to speak on personal experience not trying to stick our [ Gag ! ] linage into every single post .
might try and ease up on that if you plan to stay on the island :cool:

[LoneTiger108]

Last bit of advice -- it's not the newbie thing it's your an overzealous linage banner waver ,,, no one really cares and most of us have learned to speak on personal experience not trying to stick our [ Gag ! ] linage into every single post .
might try and ease up on that if you plan to stay on the island :cool:

Thanks for the advice. :confused:

Okay, so I started a thread on the Lee Shing Family and tend to write a lot, but 'overzealous linage banner'??? C'mon!! WTF??

Have you looked at your own 'brand' lately. No disrespect intended here but do you not teach 'Wong Shun Leung Gary Lam Ving Tsun'?? What is that if it's not a banner?? Strapped to your profile and every post you make in the form of a website. Modern marketing is all it is.

I guess you'll be teaching WSLGL Ernie Ving Tsun, and the 'overzealous banners' carry on and on...

[Ernie]

Thanks for the advice. :confused:

Okay, so I started a thread on the Lee Shing Family and tend to write a lot, but 'overzealous linage banner'??? C'mon!! WTF??

Have you looked at your own 'brand' lately. No disrespect intended here but do you not teach 'Wong Shun Leung Gary Lam Ving Tsun'?? What is that if it's not a banner?? Strapped to your profile and every post you make in the form of a website. Modern marketing is all it is.

I guess you'll be teaching WSLGL Ernie Ving Tsun, and the 'overzealous banners' carry on and on...

LOL you have a point ,, and i have thought about dumping the whole thing many times ,,,, just feels chessy ;)

but i don't rant about my teacher on every post like it's something special now do I ;)

as for the website link ,,, it just a link of initials isn't it :cool:

good luck with you journey :rolleyes:

[YungChun]

LOL you have a point ,, and i have thought about dumping the whole thing many times ,,,, just feels chessy ;)

but i don't rant about my teacher on every post like it's something special now do I ;)

as for the website link ,,, it just a link of initials isn't it :cool:

good luck with you journey :rolleyes:
Agreed...

So the information itself is what should be judged or evaluated not where it came from...right??? :cool:;)

[Ernie]

Agreed...

So the information itself is what should be judged or evaluated not where it came from...right??? :cool:;)


Yep focus on training methods that satisfy you personal criteria...some want to fight ...some want to pretend to fight .... some just want something to do and get a work out .... whatever makes em happy;)

as long as your digg'n what your doing all is well in the universe ,,,, just remember everyone has there own personal universe ,,,,, some are really out of this world :D

[LoneTiger108]

I can remember a time when I was 'playing' with a pole in class, aiming at the wooden man and using a wee bit too much imagination. I accidentally hit one of the arms and Sifu comes over and tells me off before removing all the arms and leg and placed them aside. On returning, he has four sticks, thick waxwood about 2 metres, and he slots them into the wooden man saying, 'hit these, that what they're for, not my arms!'

I continued in total numbness and trained the pole like I'd never even dreamed possible. We never showed this on any of the fifty performances we took part in during our time, but I still practice this way sometimes, just to remind me of those happy days...

Any other memories about training the Pole would be most welcome, as it is all in learning, sharing and seeing where we are all at today.

And thanks for at least discussing our views, now matter how it all seems at first I'm always only too happy to share training memories, especially about stick and pole work. Are you?

[LoneTiger108]

My new signature, and a link to our site-in-progress

[Liddel]

How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

Id hope one would understand the Ying Yang relationship from the hand form which would then lead into the pole....despite the practical differences.

But for me in a nutshell - one hand drives while the other steers.
The relationship is important for me because if both hands are not used in unity and you dont understand the Ying Yang relationship you can stiffle your own actions.

I.E The lead hand can block the energy both hands should be sending down then pole. etc


However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...


This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one.

Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move.

This relationship of the palms facing the pole, lines up your bodies power lines (similar to power lines in a punch) with the pole. A different direction of the palms with regard to the pole and you lessen and at certain angles loose the ability to move the pole tip IME.

This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

For me when putting the pole out if i have applied the right energy and the tip moves apon contact this creates many tiny hits (or at least more than one).

I would make a piont that this is NOT due to using a pole made from light wood - our pole is a heavy hard wood, so training right in the Arrow horse and Dan Kwan drills early on is crucial to developing good power to put into the pole.

This is why people with the same style as what ive been taught would refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the LDBK as machine gun - because of the mulitiple hits and power you can release with the pole.

Crude analogy but it gets the point across IMO.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one...

Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move...

...This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

DREW

I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

It's interesting to see how you interpret the Yum Yeurng hands, and its refreshing to see someone who obviously had this idea early on in their training. I also like the 'crude analogy', although I do think its a realistic one!

Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?

[Liddel]

I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

Thats cool mate, no harm no foul. :)


Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?

Just after learning the form i was at the stage of applying actions to dummies, Yes.
Shortly after was when i reluctantly gave it up in favour of the BJD.

I used the Mook Jong we use for H2H training, using the same arms etc.....

Sifu told me if i break it, i can have it.... LOL Its a mean Dummy, strong. ;)

I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour ;)

Im a bit gutted i couldnt continue with the LDB, but i do really enjoy the BJD... :rolleyes:

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.

Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour ;)

Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew. Mind you, I still feel so young among these forums. Being new to all this discussion lark works better for me when I'm reading familiar experiences. I get too defensive sometimes but I'm always going to be a Wing Chun student.

This forum must've seen some things over the years and I still want to contribute when I can, and about things I know and have seen for myself. I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

I feel that open chat about the stick and pole is a less 'serious' exchange. Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...

[Liddel]

Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.

This one was hanging from the roof and you thrust the pole through it, as you get better with your aim - we would make it smaller down to about a few cm in diam...


Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew.

Ive seen you in some vids on Youtube (95% sure). While we have different applications with our VT, it seems the style of learning is quite similar. Perhaps it because of the way our teachers were taught TO teach :rolleyes:....

Whats Lee Shings lineage exactly ?
Ive seen some different explanations on different sites....

I still havent asked my teacher about him. Theres not many old timers Sifu doesnt know :)



I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

Like i said functional with a traditional flavour... after learning the form and making the actions more second nature, we begin to do semi sparring drills against a pole etc. Then we began Chi Do training which is very much like soft sparring at first working up to harder contact. Intent is always the same, to hit the oppenent, unless isolating some aspect of application specifically.

I made wooden Do from a hard wood with brass hook fixtures for contact training like Chi Do. Sifu is agaisnt using fake metal ones cuase the sound is supposed to only be heard when in actual combat...bit traditional in that respect. ;)

He once told me that he had some Do made from the suspension of a vehicle back in HK. He got rid of them after they had been used for a while.
His idea is that even the hardest material after some 3000 hits will start to become soft and briitle. When you use a weapon for preserving life its better to be safe than sorry. So for the most part we spar with wood and do forms with metal for dexterity and strenght...extra weight etc...


Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...

Sifu used to put some material on the tip of the pole when i would train the form and Dan Kwan. Its easier to see if your moving the tip enough with the material flapping when your energy reaches it....

Is this what you used the flag for... or do you mean holding a flag itself ?

Curious
DREW

[junmo]

Talk about shoot the messenger Kevin ;) ......interesting points of view going on in this thread from Lonetiger, Ernie and K...and from my perspective I feel I can accurately gauge the positive attributes of both the Lee Shing and WSL systems ...as I have had two excellent teachers in both.

My foundation in WC was from Sifu Joe Man in London,...and my WSL training partner is one of Gary Lams students (and Ernies old training partner) - Peter Hsu in shanghai.

The Lee Shing "stick plays" are not made up kevin....I spent some very hard, but rewarding years drilling this system, and the way in which it was taught to me opened up eyes to how creative the WC system is, and how you could make it your own.

Sure it may not be your cup of tea, but because anothers reality is not your reality - that doesn't make it invalid. My training now focusses on Gary Lam curricullum as it was taught to Pete.

Do I still utilise my Joe Man training and the way he taught me - hell yes!

Sure there are fundamental differences, but if the core concepts are there. The way I was taught the Lee Shing stick plays, and the interaction sets I drilled directly flow into my way of moving and "seeing" possibilities in the WSL system.

[Kris Wu Tang]

i think your all missing the 'point' no pun intended. 6 distinct moves and half a move?

if you look at the wing chun system the pole is the last thing taught. Maybe the half move has a more deeper meaning?

[LoneTiger108]

Perhaps you can help us to understand this 'half move'? I am not familiar with this interpretation myself (hence why I created this thread) but I am looking for assistance here as I feel it's a crucial factor which may assist understanding.

Lee Shings Pole Form has 6 distinct point postures, linked together with advanced stepping work and a half pole set utilising the pole as a quarter staff. I can understand that most 'forms' I have seen from other families seem to concentrate on our 'first point', commonly called 'biu gwan'.

Can anyone here actually 'name' the rest? We tended to just number the main points, but every 'jil' within the 'sik' was named. These are the little 'half-like' moves used to link the set together, definately not the same moves as the actual 'half-pole' set itself, but has the same 'idea' behind it maybe...

[omarthefish]

How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'?

Luk Dim Boon Gwun...

Even as a Mandarin speaker I can tell that that reads "六点半棍"

Luk Dim Boon = 6 1/2 or "6:30" or the like. This reading of it as "6 and a half point" makes no sense at all. Never mind the obvious ignored question (by most)...what the heck is a "half a technique"? I technique that you messed up? A technique you really didn't have your heart in? Come on guys. These explanations are silly.

The word "dim" or "point" is in between "6 and "half" which means that syntactically it's can't really mean any of those more obscure uses of the word "dim" like "conceptual points" or "striking points". "luk dim boon" is already a morphological noun phrase meaning "6 1/2".

You sure it doesn't just refer to the length of the pole? That's how it reads in Chinese.

[Kris Wu Tang]

Perhaps you can help us to understand this 'half move'? I am not familiar with this interpretation myself (hence why I created this thread) but I am looking for assistance here as I feel it's a crucial factor which may assist understanding.

Lee Shings Pole Form has 6 distinct point postures, linked together with advanced stepping work and a half pole set utilising the pole as a quarter staff. I can understand that most 'forms' I have seen from other families seem to concentrate on our 'first point', commonly called 'biu gwan'.

Can anyone here actually 'name' the rest? We tended to just number the main points, but every 'jil' within the 'sik' was named. These are the little 'half-like' moves used to link the set together, definately not the same moves as the actual 'half-pole' set itself, but has the same 'idea' behind it maybe...

I have 2 interpretations, and I muss stress these have come from my Si Gungs.

1. as mentioned its the overall length of the pole

2. the pole is the last method taught in the wing chun system the 1/2 point means even though you have completed the system you have only gone half way and need to piece everything back together to fully understand the system.

I like to think the second is a nice way of looking at it.

[k gledhill]

i give up...

[LoneTiger108]

This thread was started so people could openly 'share' their experiences with the stick/pole and debate whether we have misunderstood the translation of the name of our famous weaponry form.

Obviously some people can't even read contributions without being negative, and I suppose the thread will be a better place without them.

What interested me was omarthefish's post, as I have heard references to the pole methods as '6 & Half Pole'. Is this what you were meaning? I presume that if 'Luk Dim Boon' was translated as 6 1/2, there is no need to even mention the 'point'.

Talk of only being 'halfway' through the form makes sense to me also, as generally that's all I see in any of Ip Mans later students, including his sons. Only half the actual content is performed, maybe even less, as I rarely see points 3, 4, 5 & 6 and never see the half pole.

[k gledhill]

towel thrown ....:D :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

Quit so soon?

I can only presume that this happened to you when you were learning Wing Chun, and you left before ANY decent information was shared...

[LoneTiger108]

... it isn't the fact you left Wing Chun too early, its simply because you obviously train in a highly competitive and sports orientated environment so the essence of little family systems like Wing Chun will just not fit-in well enough.

From a link on your contact page:

Large selection of classes all under one roof
• The combat sports fighting: Muay Thai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, boxing, and mixed martial arts.
• The reality-based hand-to-hand combat training: SYSTEMA (Russian Martial Art) for practical street survival and self-protection.
• The fighting styles of Kung Fu: Ng Mui, Wing Chun, and the traditional Eagle Claw Kung Fu.
• Other classes offered: Escrima, Samurai Sword-fighting, and Kettlebell Weight Training.

May I ask, just to be polite, what class do 'you' teach?

[omarthefish]

What interested me was omarthefish's post, as I have heard references to the pole methods as '6 & Half Pole'. Is this what you were meaning? I presume that if 'Luk Dim Boon' was translated as 6 1/2, there is no need to even mention the 'point'.


Yes.

Here is is in Chinese:

六点半棍

luk/6/六 dim/point/点 boon/half/半 gun/staff/棍

The Chinese semantics for a phrase like "luk dim boon" is the same for English. In other words, the "point" in this phrase means "." That's right, a decimal point. A straight reading does not give you "6 and a half points" but rather "6 point half" or "6.5".

Now Gongfu terminology often plays by its own rules. Sometimes it's because it's classical or semi-classical Chinese. Sometimes it's just because they like to encode stuff in the names that only insiders would know. I'm just offering a little insight on how you would read the phrase "luk dim boon" in a "regular" linguistic setting. It reads as a number implying length. 6.5 "chi" (Ancient Chinese measurement for length) or 6.5 nodes on a piece of rattan.

"6.5" not "6 1/2 points".

Could also be just something weird about Cantonese grammar I haven't heard before.

[CFT]

You need the 点 in 六点半 to say "6.5".
Six "half" poles would be 六枝半棍

I'm just offering a little insight on how you would read the phrase "luk dim boon" in a "regular" linguistic setting. It reads as a number implying length. 6.5 "chi" (Ancient Chinese measurement for length) or 6.5 nodes on a piece of rattan.That's not a bad theory except I've not heard of anyone using rattan long poles before.

I don't think 六点半 has anything to do with the length - 6.5 what? 6.5 of the ancient "chi" comes out around 7.5ft which is much shorter than most wing Chun long poles (9ft upwards).

I always thought the "half point" was the leak (lau) concept.

[omarthefish]

Not having any direct experience with the WC pole forms I wouldn't have any idea how long its supposed to be. 7.5 feet is a pretty decent length for a pole. It's southern style so I figured rattan was possible although if it's really long then obviously it's more likely to be waxwood or something.

[k gledhill]

... it isn't the fact you left Wing Chun too early, its simply because you obviously train in a highly competitive and sports orientated environment so the essence of little family systems like Wing Chun will just not fit-in well enough.

From a link on your contact page:

Large selection of classes all under one roof
• The combat sports fighting: Muay Thai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, boxing, and mixed martial arts.
• The reality-based hand-to-hand combat training: SYSTEMA (Russian Martial Art) for practical street survival and self-protection.
• The fighting styles of Kung Fu: Ng Mui, Wing Chun, and the traditional Eagle Claw Kung Fu.
• Other classes offered: Escrima, Samurai Sword-fighting, and Kettlebell Weight Training.

May I ask, just to be polite, what class do 'you' teach?


Fighthouse gym NYC is where I teach Ving Tsun or 'hang' my dummy ...one big happy family, I teach the students of other arts there VT, they do BJJ, Systema...etc...a lot of mixed approach, I have students who teach ground fighting ....I learn from them ;)
there are several other VT schools there too...
my website has my resume if your trying to do research...its simple like me :D made by me but it does the job :D

http://home.earthlink.net/~wslnyc/ there are some articles too by WSL & Philipp

[LoneTiger108]

Not having any direct experience with the WC pole forms I wouldn't have any idea how long its supposed to be. 7.5 feet is a pretty decent length for a pole. It's southern style so I figured rattan was possible although if it's really long then obviously it's more likely to be waxwood or something.

Not a bad guess at the length, but I'm sure others here will have their own ideas. The rattan poles, as far as my research goes, reminds me of the 'punting' guys in the harbours as it was a favourite due to its flexibility.

Waxwood has always been our Sifus choice, and again lengths varied. The Half Pole being considered the 'leaking' theory also sits well as you would need to know how to 'enter' into close range against long weaponry, closing the gap so to speak.