is wing chun internal? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

t_niehoff

09-24-2007, 08:15 AM

IMO, after thinking this over for years...IS..

External = Low Road..

Internal = High Road..

Not soft and hard..

Low Road is technique that uses gross motor skills easily done under the adrenal dump..

High Road is technique that uses fine motor skills not easily done under the adrenal dump..

Most arts have both.. So it's up to the individual what he/she can use..

Low Road is accessible to all levels of experience..

Higher Road technique will work only for those who can retain more fine motor control and mental control over their glands.... :cool:

Great *theory* -- but the reality is, when you are fighting, you will not maintain "fine motor control". Nor will you control your glands (my Lord! where do people get such ideas?). And, it really has nothing to do with "adrenal dump" anyway. It has more to do with heart-rate, which pertains to our body adjusting to physical stress. When your heart-rate goes up over 145 bpm, complex and fine motor skills -- your motor coordination -- begin to deteriorate, and over 175 cognitive processing breaks down. This is just how our bodies function. Optimum range is 115 to 145. At that level, the stress actually imporves our performance. Only by practicing (sparring) in those ranges can we learn what things we can or cannot do and get enough rehersal doing them so that we are able to pull them off consistently.

My adivce to the original poster is to put the notion of internal/extrernal out of your mind -- it is a false "distinction" and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world really works. Instead, look for mechanics that best suit the task at hand (i.e., produce the best results).

YungChun

09-24-2007, 08:21 AM

but the reality is, when you are fighting, you will not maintain "fine motor control".

Different people exhibit different levels of fine motor control under stress.. Different people exhibit different levels of stress.. Different people are different.. Grapplers apply moves that could be defined as FMC..

Nor will you control your glands (my Lord! where do people get such ideas?)

From seeing and experiencing the affects of adrenal stress training.. With more conditioning stress levels drop..

And, it really has nothing to do with "adrenal dump" anyway.

BS. It certainly does...

It has more to do with heart-rate, which pertains to our body adjusting to physical stress.

And it has to do with "the dump" as this and stress are interconnected.. In any case with AST and sport fighting experience and sparring experience, all these things including cardio will aid in reducing stress.. People perform better when there is less stress, but not no stress.. :D

Tom Kagan

09-24-2007, 09:03 AM

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?

Internal vs. external is an arbitrary distinction which actually does not exist. It is a false duality.

The terminology was made up by Sun Lutang in the early 20th century. According to him, the only internal styles are Xing Yi, Tai Chi, and Ba Gua. Thus, according to this logic, everything in Ving Tsun is external no matter how much people might want to argue to the contrary.

So, pick one: internal, external, both, and/or neither. Using such labels to pigeonhole what is what within a given style won't change a thing, anyway.

t_niehoff

09-24-2007, 09:03 AM

Different people exhibit different levels of fine motor control under stress.. Different people exhibit different levels of stress.. Different people are different.. Grapplers apply moves that could be defined as FMC..

Let's not make up our own definitions of FMC. Of course people are different. But generally, the parameters I indicated apply.

We become "better" at acting under stress by practice -- by acting under stress. And we come to understand how stress effects us by acting under stress.

From seeing and experiencing the affects of adrenal stress training.. With more conditioning stress levels drop..

As we become better conditioned athletes -- better accumstomed to fighting stresses on our body -- the greater amount of stresses we can handle. This is true of all athletics.

BS. It certainly does...

Adrenal dump has more to do with untrained people -- people dealing with unaccustomed stresses. I'm not saying that there isn't some adrenal activity involved. There certainly is. That's the butterflies any good fighter feels. But not a "dump." That's soemthing else entirely. And it inhibits skill.

And it has to do with "the dump" as this and stress are interconnected.. In any case with AST and sport fighting experience and sparring experience, all these things including cardio will aid in reducing stress.. People perform better when there is less stress, but not no stress.. :D

You don't "reduce stress" -- becasue the situation doesn't change. You become better able to deal with that level of stress by becoming accustomed to it. By dealing with it over and over again. The "dump" comes on because we get a huge shock to our system, something we are not accustomed to dealing with. For example, for womeone who never spars, a good shot to the head causes the "dump" but to someone who spars a lot, the same shot is just another day at the office. He's used to them.

uki

09-24-2007, 12:10 PM

ive been thinking of doin wing chun for a while and im curious as to how much of an internal element wing chun has...im still confused about the internal/external argument and whther one should supplement an external style like say muay thai, with an internal like tai chi....so how much of an internal element is there in wing chun?dualism is an illusion. there cannot be one without the other. hard-soft, low-high, internal-external; all these words are merely labels that confuse the ignorant. practice according to the dictates of your mind. sometimes the weather is sunny and calm and at other times it is a raging hurricane; the same principles apply to martial arts.

Mr Punch

09-24-2007, 09:38 PM

truth against the worldThe world is part of truth, like it or not. To deny it is illusory. And is there only one truth?

Now back to your scheduled programme. :D

Chosen-frozen

09-24-2007, 10:44 PM

Great *theory* -- but the reality is, when you are fighting, you will not maintain "fine motor control". Nor will you control your glands (my Lord! where do people get such ideas?). And, it really has nothing to do with "adrenal dump" anyway. It has more to do with heart-rate, which pertains to our body adjusting to physical stress. When your heart-rate goes up over 145 bpm, complex and fine motor skills -- your motor coordination -- begin to deteriorate, and over 175 cognitive processing breaks down. This is just how our bodies function. Optimum range is 115 to 145. At that level, the stress actually imporves our performance. Only by practicing (sparring) in those ranges can we learn what things we can or cannot do and get enough rehersal doing them so that we are able to pull them off consistently.

My adivce to the original poster is to put the notion of internal/extrernal out of your mind -- it is a false "distinction" and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world really works. Instead, look for mechanics that best suit the task at hand (i.e., produce the best results).

Hey genius, the increased heart rate is CAUSED BY adrenal dump.....unless you decided to do 20 minutes on the stairmaster before you began fighting.

Liddel

09-24-2007, 11:51 PM

Hey genius, the increased heart rate is CAUSED BY adrenal dump.....unless you decided to do 20 minutes on the stairmaster before you began fighting.

I think he had a "im right your wrong" - internet brain F4rt. He prob didnt mean it literally... i hope :o

Its funny i was reading related articles about this today...scroll down to "Actions in the body"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenalin

byond1

09-25-2007, 05:50 PM

yep - anyone who has been in a real fight, where you face possible death, which isnt a sport nor sparring, understands how adrenaline dump effects the body coupled with the increase of heart and breath rate.

Fight or flight is an AUTOMATIC responce, when internal or external preasure hits our nervous system via our senses. Adrenaline and cortisones are dumped into the blood stream, while the heart rate goes up, as does breath rate.

External stimulation effects those, who are used to physical exersise and stress with less adrenaline dump during fight or flight. While Internal stimulation effects those who are mentaly calm and relaxed (as well as comfortable in a fight or flight situation due to real experiance) less. Hence confidence is KING!!~

Breath control and tightening of the muscle groups near the andrenals, also gives one an amount of control to "Back off" some of the firing of the andrenals.

b

YungChun

09-25-2007, 05:58 PM

Terence isn't thinking "Life and Death" he's thinking "Game-Set-Match"--the gaming mindset clearly showing through in his posts..

I'd be interested to see studies of the effects of meditation on controlling the adrenal response.. I would bet folks can learn to help control this response via such training in addition to other methods..

Edmund

09-25-2007, 07:20 PM

YungChun

09-25-2007, 10:51 PM

Hmm.

When the term "Fine Motor Skills" is used generally it's referring to stuff like writing your name, threading a needle, aiming your gun etc.

It's not like humans become spastic retards when they get adrenal dumps. We wouldn't have survived in the wild if that were the case.
Many of the more delicate moves in the system come close or are FMC(fine motor control) and/or require precise use of energy.

The dump does adversely effect FMC but enhances GMC (gross motor control)--Fight or Flight response.. Over millions of years of evolution few folks were involved with TCMA..

So, regardless of what meant by Internal/External most TCMA have high road moves and low road moves.. Not all situations are going to cause a major dump but when it happens folks do tend to perform much more spastic than normal.. To get an idea try sparring after you do some wind sprints and your heart rate is over 150 BMP or so..

Sifu used to always say.."When you fight for real give your kung-fu a 50% discount--at least..."

Edmund

09-26-2007, 12:01 AM

Many of the more delicate moves in the system come close or are FMC(fine motor control) and/or require precise use of energy.

You haven't described anything that fits into the FMC definition.
What moves are you referring to?

The dump does adversely effect FMC but enhances GMC (gross motor control)--Fight or Flight response.. Over millions of years of evolution few folks were involved with TCMA..

So, regardless of what meant by Internal/External most TCMA have high road moves and low road moves.. Not all situations are going to cause a major dump but when it happens folks do tend to perform much more spastic than normal.. To get an idea try sparring after you do some wind sprints and your heart rate is over 150 BMP or so..

Sifu used to always say.."When you fight for real give your kung-fu a 50% discount--at least..."

You've just suggested a situation where you are tired beforehand. This is not quite the same.

YungChun

09-26-2007, 04:08 AM

You haven't described anything that fits into the FMC definition.
What moves are you referring to?

Anything that isn't a gross motor movement, or a very simple non compound movements, energy/position changes, making small positional adjustments, loose power, folks may get tense, lots of these kinds of stuff in CMA and WCK..

To me it's not about move A working under the dump and move B not working, the dump when in force ends up making everything less precise and accurate.. Fighting gets simpler and less technically 'perfect'.

I'm sure most people have been in situations where they are stressing out and fumble trying to select the right key, we knock things over, stumble, trip or bump into things, etc when under the effects of this kind of stress, you just feel and move, even think/speak like a spaz. Ever notice sometimes when people, especially men, get really pizzed off they can’t find the right words to talk through things rationally.. This is all because the primal brain has taken over…

The effects are easily seen if you watch something like COPS.. Not only are all motor functions affected by the "dump" but even the ability to give what is called Alpha Commands--specific and critical commands given to suspects to take back control, is impaired..

The effect is not the same for everyone nor will the same things always trigger the same reaction in everyone.. But the problem is very real and serious problem that is addressed all over the place esp by LEO and easy to find information on if one wishes...

You've just suggested a situation where you are tired beforehand. This is not quite the same.
First off feeling “Tired and drained” is part of what some folks feel under the “dump”.
Second this is the kind of suggestion experts make for folks to *get an idea*.

If you want to experience the dump for yourself then either go to an adrenal stress class:
http://fastdefense.com/fast.html

See video: beginner level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spSw5tBedUM

Or go for a walk in the wrong part of town at the wrong time and start shouting slurs at the locals. As they start to surround you see how you feel …:)

Haven’t you ever had the schit scared out of you or got really angry?

Haven’t you noticed the physical effects?

Edmund

09-26-2007, 06:25 AM

Getting your keys out is not a WC movement. Or talking. :)

"Anything not a gross motor movement" is not really a good definition of a WC move involving fine motor skills.

Of course there are physical effects of adrenal dumps. You have less fine motor control. Reducing your ability to get your keys or talk properly for instance.

But that does not mean you are using fine motor skills to spar. You haven't described any WC moves that require *fine motor skills*. I can't think of any that do.

A gross motor skill is not necessarily a simple skill either. A full somersault is a gross motor skill. Doesn't mean you can perform one!

Being very tired reduces your ability to use your gross motor skills as well as your fine motor skills making it not a good example. All your muscles are exhausted making them not move as quickly.

YungChun

09-26-2007, 06:51 AM

Getting your keys out is not a WC movement. Or talking. :)

"Anything not a gross motor movement" is not really a good definition of a WC move involving fine motor skills.

Alrighty then...

All those strange little circles, huen sao, jao sao, jip sao, TARGETING EYES, etc, that requires WING CHUN PRECISION... PRESICION TRAINED IN CHI SAO... WITH PRECISION RELAXED ENERGY AND POSITION (sound familiar?) :rolleyes:

Anything that isn't very simple will suffer when the dump happens.: Note the discussion on the other thread, how real fighting gets very simple most of the time.. When we go into the primal brain mode IT KNOWS what you CAN’T PULL OFF and will MAKE YOU GET SIMPLE….

This is not brain surgery and I am not interested in debating what is already well known and accepted as fact around the globe. The dump effects ANYONE who gets one and it will degrade all but the most simple techniques and even then awareness and reactions can and will get distorted....

I am not making this up...it's science, aka common knowledge.. It happens to people all the time even in simple conversation when people get high jacked.. Did you see the video, note how some of the people being stressed can't even walk or move smoothly anymore unlike the trainer who is very smooth, calm cool and collected--in movement..

Now for some reason you don't seem comfortable with the idea that an adrenal dump could impair your performance, FINE.. WORKS FOR ME.. :cool:

In light of this let's just say that you are immune to the effect and no matter what kind of adrenal dump you get all your skills will remain at 100% all the time... k? :rolleyes:

Hendrik

09-26-2007, 09:48 AM

watch it and ask ourself what is internal in Chinese Martial art paradigm?

http://mymedia.yam.com/m/1527522

or

it is not about internal or external but the question is --- is our art complete or incomplete under the Traditional Chinese Martial art paradigm?

monji112000

09-26-2007, 10:10 AM

If you want to experience the dump for yourself then either go to an adrenal stress class:
http://fastdefense.com/fast.html

See video: beginner level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spSw5tBedUM

lol that looks like fun. Maybe have the person actually attack them.. that probably would make it more real.

uki

09-26-2007, 10:32 AM

The world is part of truth, like it or not. the world is relevant only to ones perception of it. in truth i understand the world is full of lies; these lies are instigated to create confusion, which in turn creates ignorance and finally fear.

To deny it is illusory. i deny the illusion of the world.

And is there only one truth?and many pieces to the puzzle of it.

and now back to your scheduled programme. yeah, that was really a brain-gas-leak attempt at a commercial.:p

YungChun

09-26-2007, 10:37 AM

lol that looks like fun. Maybe have the person actually attack them.. that probably would make it more real.
The amount of agression the trainer uses is variable and dependant on the skill level of the trainee. In a couple of those clips the trainers were making contact to the face... While they start off slow they do offer more agressive levels and if you ask them nicely to beat you up I'm sure they'll ablige you.. ;)

Edmund

09-26-2007, 03:42 PM

Alrighty then...

All those strange little circles, huen sao, jao sao, jip sao, TARGETING EYES, etc, that requires WING CHUN PRECISION... PRESICION TRAINED IN CHI SAO... WITH PRECISION RELAXED ENERGY AND POSITION (sound familiar?) :rolleyes:

Anything that isn't very simple will suffer when the dump happens.: Note the discussion on the other thread, how real fighting gets very simple most of the time.. When we go into the primal brain mode IT KNOWS what you CAN’T PULL OFF and will MAKE YOU GET SIMPLE….

This is not brain surgery and I am not interested in debating what is already well known and accepted as fact around the globe. The dump effects ANYONE who gets one and it will degrade all but the most simple techniques and even then awareness and reactions can and will get distorted....

I am not making this up...it's science, aka common knowledge.. It happens to people all the time even in simple conversation when people get high jacked.. Did you see the video, note how some of the people being stressed can't even walk or move smoothly anymore unlike the trainer who is very smooth, calm cool and collected--in movement..

Now for some reason you don't seem comfortable with the idea that an adrenal dump could impair your performance, FINE.. WORKS FOR ME.. :cool:

In light of this let's just say that you are immune to the effect and no matter what kind of adrenal dump you get all your skills will remain at 100% all the time... k? :rolleyes:

When have I said you are immune to adrenal dump?! The effects are to reduce your fine motor skills and increase your gross motor movements.

This does not mean any WC moves are fine motor skills.

Poking the eyes? What the hell is up with poking guys in the eye? It's a stupid move! I definitely would classify that as requiring fine motor control. The target is small. Hence the usefulness of that move is limited in a stressful situation. I'll concede that it is a WC move though. I don't believe it is a particularly emphasized move in WC as I have said in the other thread.

The other moves you mentioned, I would not classify them as fine motor skills.

Seemed like on your video everyone did as they trained despite being beginners.
They used their adrenaline to help them focus, move, strike hard and fast. Hell yeah they can't talk properly. That's a fine motor skill. Their gross motor skills were fine.

A stressful situation is stressful because there's more happening. Their performance suffers because there are more variables and things are happening quickly. Not every variable/variation they are experienced with, so of course they don't do everything as well as someone who has practiced more.

BUT your adrenal responses help you. Your heart rate increases to get more blood moving around your body for the fight or flight. Your hearing is impaired and you get tunnel vision to reduce the amount of extraneous stimulus and speed up your reactions to what you are focusing on.

Maybe you should read your own link:
Just as someone can be traumatized and conditioned to freeze for years or decades after just one bad experience, we can engineer a positive experience in a very short time, which provides conditioning to control and even use the fear and adrenaline rush that inevitably occurs in any intense situation.

YungChun

09-27-2007, 04:53 AM

Maybe you should read your own link:
Maybe you should go argue with them..

These guys teach very specific tools for their program, palms, elbows, knees, that’s IT..

If you showed them how WCK folks train very PRECISE use of POSITION and ENERGY, along with small delicate circle changes, etc, as is trained in ChiSao they will tell you that they think it’s NOT going to be useful for low road conditions..

If you are really interested go find a forum where these folks hang out and ask them all about WCK techniques and what THEY think..

I know how I respond and perform under stress and everyone knows how high levels of stress degrades most performance. At a high enough level of stress people can't perform any technique/motor function very well, but it depends on the person and the conditions.

Why is it in real fights we see very little of what is in the WCK book come out? How many techniques are there in the system? A lot more than a couple of strikes, grabs, etc..

Perhaps you could show us video of someone in a real fight doing all kinds of interesting WCK techniques/changes/shapes, that goes beyond the most basic use of WCK mechanics and striking..

What we normally see is that only the most simple techniques, like strikes, elbows, kness, etc. are used. Maybe you don't see WCK fighting as anything but these basics and that's fine too, but the reality is that what is seen is simple and it's simple because the stress/conditions limit what works when the primal bran is ON. Yes it can enhance these few tools but also can hamper more complex performance of technique or even any technique if the stress is high enough.. This is why some folks want to try to train to keep themselves at a minimum stress <useful> level, because high levels of stress <hurtful> does hamper performance--it's that simple..

Now if you have any more questions about this subject I would suggest asking one of their reps. I am not a representative of this system or an authority in ASR, nor do I wish to be for purposes of this "discussion"..

k gledhill

09-27-2007, 06:13 AM

Advanced police shooting tactics incorporate breathing controls similar to sanchin in GoJu ..relaxed stances using Tai Chi as model. And adopting an isocolese triangle grip [ > --- ] due to the adrenalin dump, a strong arm will over power a 'support' or weaker position taking the aim off even at close quarters, due to gross motorskills kicking in.
VT shapes are this triangle in unison and can be incorporated into stress shooting without skipping a beat, I know because ive done it...advancing down the confines of an airliner seating area etc... shifting and punching out equally along a facing target line ...VT is great for stress . Aikidos 360 degree turning dropping stances afford a circle of fire while dropping for cover and maintianing the ability to face and fire even if the grips are compromised for lesser choices , weavers etc..
I had LOTS of time to experience stress from regular confrontations of fights or impending fights etc... simply natures way of getting ready to fight weve all felt the symptoms ...heart, breath, crapping our pants [ trying not to look like it :D] and then the nutsac retraction [ gotta do that JFK weekend..] all natural. Ive had fghts were Ive been jumping in the air like a trampoline exponent egging guys on to attack me [ what happened to my stance :D] I found that the system is perfect for realities of stress and delivering a straight line of force that uses the adrenal effects to its advantage ....you dont think 'fine skills' when you fight :D, you jut take in time / distance / and anatural selection of the most damage for what those variables present..you maneuver in simple lines to deliver a full on focused blast at the right time
SIMPLE END ...the rest is if its blocked , rare :D a lot of us harp on about this techniques that response ...in the face of an attack that has happened without weeks of preparation , you dont even know all the guys who your going to fight until it 'goes off' so adrenalin ? I welcome it ! , I expect it and look for it... when i feel the beginning actions of a nut sac retraction in an arguement Im just rolling with myself ...if it goes further I know Im taking the added bonus AND hitting them with it ..it isnt a negative at all...adrenalin junkies are that for a reason..me an adrenal user unh unh [ Denial !!! said in my best bruce the white shark voice ]

In real gunfights guys dont use the sights [ loss of fine motor skills] plus nature makes us focus on the attacker , tunnel vision , slow motion, [Ive felt it all] , so training becomes instinctive isocolese triangulation FIRE and training to simply MOVE OUT OF THE LINE OF INCOMING while maintaining your line of fire , never wavering to shoot the gun out of the hand [chase] but go for 2 body 1 head [ in case of body armour]

similarities of 'stress' can simulated by being given a course of fire . similar to practical pistol course . When you start you dont start by taking aim , you get told , no scramed at, to drop and do 20 squat thrusts to simultae increased hearts rates etc... and the added bonus of 10 guys screaming at you yelling at you trying to disorient you from the objective.....THEN you start shooting , reloading etc... even reloading is retrained to adopt gorilla grips on the gun not a 'target practice' 2 finger speed load....you have to do exercises that involve no prior knowedge of the following scenarios....

read stressfire by Mas Ayoub, simple stuff from experienced insructors in REAL stress...
they use a lot of martial arts for the physical mental side.

I found from hours of ch-sao i didnt panic if a gun jammed, when they happend on course people commented on this calmness [ maybe Im just a nut ]. I attributed it to simply not having the 'pressure' of constant attack on you at all times like facing a VT attack....even when they shot at me [ my feet] to simulate incoming fire I stayed focused [ I knew they wouldnt hit me ]...VT :D

byond1

09-27-2007, 03:59 PM

LOL - Great post KG.

The funny thing is, I was shocked at myself, when I came to the realization, that I was an athletic adrenal junkie. That was when I came to realize that I was training my WCK like a "Extreme Sport"!!

What you mention about Gun combat, I see as being very valid (growing up in an environment where my father and all of his friends were Police officers), that many things you mention, he taught me as truth about Gun combat.

Have you seen the movie "Equilibrium"? With Christian Bale? After the World self destructs, we rebuild, and a synthetic drug is found that surpresses the emotions to help create a utopia. The guys called "clerics" are basicaly enforcers, for the status quote. They practise a form of MA called the "Gun Kata" allowing you to hit a maximum amount of opponents with maximum efficiency, while avoiding being hit or in direct firing line. What you said, invoked the image in my mind of the "Gun Kata" LOL

B

k gledhill

09-27-2007, 04:03 PM

sounds good I'll check it out...:D

Edmund

09-27-2007, 04:38 PM

Why would I argue with them when I agree with them!

If your WC moves require PRECISE DELICATE SMALL changes then you will not be able to perform them in a real situation because of adrenaline. These are BS techniques that guys that never fought think are going to work: poking someone in the eye. Little wrist circles.

This is the point of keeping WC simple and not having moves that rely on fine motor control.

The high road will not work.

YOU DONT NEED A LOT OF MOVES. And the fancy stuff doesn't work.
The WC system really doesn't have that many moves. The majority of hand techniques are contained within SLT.

Back on the adrenaline thing. The point of controlling your adrenaline is so that you can do all the things OUTSIDE of fight or flight that you need to defend yourself. You may need to talk your way out of a situation, or get your keys out, or get your gun out. You may have to look around for signs of danger or escape routes.

When it is time to fight or flight, then you *need* the adrenaline.

Maybe you should go argue with them..

These guys teach very specific tools for their program, palms, elbows, knees, that’s IT..

If you showed them how WCK folks train very PRECISE use of POSITION and ENERGY, along with small delicate circle changes, etc, as is trained in ChiSao they will tell you that they think it’s NOT going to be useful for low road conditions..

If you are really interested go find a forum where these folks hang out and ask them all about WCK techniques and what THEY think..

I know how I respond and perform under stress and everyone knows how high levels of stress degrades most performance. At a high enough level of stress people can't perform any technique/motor function very well, but it depends on the person and the conditions.

Why is it in real fights we see very little of what is in the WCK book come out? How many techniques are there in the system? A lot more than a couple of strikes, grabs, etc..

Perhaps you could show us video of someone in a real fight doing all kinds of interesting WCK techniques/changes/shapes, that goes beyond the most basic use of WCK mechanics and striking..

What we normally see is that only the most simple techniques, like strikes, elbows, kness, etc. are used. Maybe you don't see WCK fighting as anything but these basics and that's fine too, but the reality is that what is seen is simple and it's simple because the stress/conditions limit what works when the primal bran is ON. Yes it can enhance these few tools but also can hamper more complex performance of technique or even any technique if the stress is high enough.. This is why some folks want to try to train to keep themselves at a minimum stress <useful> level, because high levels of stress <hurtful> does hamper performance--it's that simple..

uki

09-28-2007, 11:38 AM

Advanced police shooting tactics incorporate breathing controls similar to sanchin in GoJu ..relaxed stances using Tai Chi as model. what a disgrace. using tai chi like stances to improve ones idiotic ability to fire a gun. people who use guns are afraid and fearful.

sanjuro_ronin

09-28-2007, 11:53 AM

what a disgrace. using tai chi like stances to improve ones idiotic ability to fire a gun. people who use guns are afraid and fearful.

Much like your lower intestine, your comment is full of it.

TenTigers

09-29-2007, 03:44 AM

remember, Boyz n Gurlz, "Guns don't kill people, I kill people"

YungChun

09-29-2007, 04:56 AM

When it is time to fight or flight, then you *need* the adrenaline.
It's not about on/off, that training is about keeping the adrenaline at useful level.. High levels of adrenaline impair performance.. Otherwise there would be no need to address the issue at all let alone a training program to deal with it.. :rolleyes:

Hendrik

09-29-2007, 08:13 PM

SLT is definately holistic.

The path of cultivating/ attainment of SLT goes like this.

1, physical (movements)
2, breathing (oxigen/ blood flow)
3, Qi flow (energy flow)
4, Light illuminating (Awareness/Sensitivity)
5, Return to the Nature (comes accepts..... Using Silence to lead action, or non resistance state)

In the physical level one train to aware of the movements of every part of the physical body.

in the breathing level one train to aware of the breathing and how the deep breathing influence the physical and mind

in the Qi flow level one train to aware of energy flow through out the whole body

in the Light illuminating level one expand one's awareness, it is in this level of training one develop the ability of sensing or sensitivity to read and adapt for physical and energy flow.

Then,
One enter into the Return to the Natural state where only after one has a certain attainment and achievement in the previous 4 level.

Thus, there is no internal or external, all is one in the ancient chinese martial art paradigm. The trouble is we in this era seldom know what needs to be attained and what level one needs to train into or moving into. Not to mention we are so far away from the mastering of the art compare with those in the 1850.

I used to think there is only 4 sections and 4 level in the SLT I am training in, but now I am convince there is a 5th level --- the level of return to the Natural. The level of formless.

For those who think they have master the first two level in the SLT training, a test is asking them how did they manage or handle thier back as a whole.

For those who think they have master the 3rd level in the SLT training, a test is asking them how is the flow of the energy in thier thigh , hips and lower back.

For those who think they have master the 4th level in the SLT training, a test is asking them how is thier awareness of thier whole back down to thier sole.

Could they handle every inch of these area with flexibility and softness, or even raise the body temperature at these part of the body? That will tell alots on one's SLT training.

Just some sharing.

to be or not to be that is the answer.

Peace

Xiao3 Meng4

09-29-2007, 10:04 PM

For those who think they have master the ... a test is asking them how...

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing

Seeking intellectual answers to the physical aspects of Gong Fu through verbal questioning allows egos to flourish and the truth to be suppressed, both on the part of the questioner and the part of the person being questioned. In Gong Fu, One must question with and be questioned by the whole being.

Gong Fu is internal in the sense that it encourages Awareness of reality. Boddhidharma brought Martial Arts to Bu Tuo's temple as a part of Chan practice. Monks primarily trained and fought one another not because they had a problem with their brothers, or because they felt threatened and needed to learn to defend the temple; they fought because it was a way to practice Chan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs&mode=related&search=).

Hendrik

09-30-2007, 10:02 AM

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing

Seeking intellectual answers to the physical aspects of Gong Fu through verbal questioning allows egos to flourish and the truth to be suppressed, both on the part of the questioner and the part of the person being questioned. In Gong Fu, One must question with and be questioned by the whole being.

Gong Fu is internal in the sense that it encourages Awareness of reality. Boddhidharma brought Martial Arts to Bu Tuo's temple as a part of Chan practice. Monks primarily trained and fought one another not because they had a problem with their brothers, or because they felt threatened and needed to learn to defend the temple; they fought because it was a way to practice Chan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs&mode=related&search=).

You know, I would agree with you years ago.

However, now I DONT!

The reason

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing

is said at 2000 years ago is because most 99.9% of Chinese at that time doesnt have the philosohpy and science like us today.

Thus, communication is difficult similar to when one doesnt have enough vocaburaly to express oneself and or understood what others is specifically communicate.

Today we know Dao is a state of Energy. this type of State is a flow. This type of energy is adaptive.....

Now, I am not saying us the general logic could understood what lao tze said with our logical speculation which is based on material extreme.

What I am saying is we today have enough philosophical and scientific back ground to develop a further advance philosophy and science frame work that could lead us into knowing what is Lao Tze communicate.

As for the test, that is beyond the mind and intelecture understanding because it doesnt matter how or what one could claim one is understanding, could one actually activate or handle one's spine in a sophisticated way, that show's one's kung fu.

Thus, it is not about fuzzy or myterious talk where none will understand.

It is about Can one do it? if yes, then the one could do it knows and can use analogy or anytype of way to communicate what is "It".

And that is beyond internal or external. it is how NATURAL suppose to be, Call it prana, call it Qi, call it grace. call it what ever. call it ren du medirians, call it spine holistic handling.... call it what ever one like to. if one knows one knows.

As for the test, ask oneself, and dont have to argue, can oneself naturally and smoothly handle the hip join between the lower back and the thigh? if not that one doesnt even have a handling on the physical level or level one.

as an analogy, those type of in able to aware, manual, and handle the hip area is
similar to clamping or braking the two back wheel of the four wheel drive , but thinking one knows it all and capable to drive the four wheel drive for cross country match.

The reality is one doesnt even know how to get the four wheel drive to run properly or even to a neutral gear.

A YJKYM with a braking "two back wheels" is a kiss of death, and 90% or the people do it everyday and keep thinking it will create magic instead of the reality said it is actually cause one to be doom. but how many of us know it?

un aware of and
keep doing the SLT or YJKYM with braking the two back wheels , discuss and argue about internal and external....etc. what are we talking about with those discussion and arguement? Junk and nonsense.

But, sure, those who has no idea what it is like to have a free moving two back wheels will argue and asert they are right ---- with the usual reasoning --- "oh that is your intepretation, everyone is right; the sad thing are, they dont even aware of the existance of the back wheels.

Thus, IMHO, we all need to develop a new philosophy and science to clearly know these stuffs. using your sifu says my sifu says is not going to make it because not every sifu or sijo is clear on what is going on unless those who really got the experience. and even then, if there is no good communication tool, it is difficult to communicate.

peace

couch

09-30-2007, 10:19 AM

You know, I would agree with you years ago.

However, now I DONT!

The reason

"The Dao that can be told is not the original Dao. The Dao that can be named is not the original name." - Dao De Jing

is said at 2000 years ago is because most 99.9% of Chinese at that time doesnt have the philosohpy and science like us today.

Thus, communication is difficult similar to when one doesnt have enough vocaburaly to express oneself and or understood what others is specifically communicate.

peace

The problem with the Western thinking is just that...science. Absolutes...no room for maybe's and possibilities. The Tao addresses these problems and opens the mind to options in the world.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Hendrik

09-30-2007, 10:35 AM

The problem with the Western thinking is just that...science. Absolutes...no room for maybe's and possibilities. The Tao addresses these problems and opens the mind to options in the world.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Kenton,

I use to think like that too.

but after I met my sifu master Lee

http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

who is the pioneer in both the chinese qigong and energy handling scientific research, I have learn from him that this could be change. what we need is a new philosophy and science that is deeper and broader then what we have today. without get stuck in Chinese Culture, Tradition...etc. Let's face it alots of things we practice today in CMA or even Chinese Buddhism or Chan has nothing todo with the Law of the NATURAL or the teaching of the Buddha, but it is purely Chinese Culture and Tradition. Certainly practice those stuffs will make one understand more about Chinese but it is not going to improve one's physical or mental ability. and we most of the time just dont want to accept we are actually following a "religion" instead of cultivating the NAture or Dao. So, how much DAO is DAO even thought we keep qouting Lao Tze about Dao this and Dao that. but what we really practice is not DAO but Chinese tradition.

as for western thinking, if we have legitimate and clear direction, it is only a matter of time the western thinking will expand.

and

Dao has no nationality or race. it is only a matter of if this communication is make simple and we are willing to communicate with a new philosophical and scientific platfrom.

To be real honest, I am proposing to use Master Lee's multi-dimentional energy state philosophy and training process to explain and train the SLT/SNT. he is using Bio-logical computer, Bio-logical scaning system..... modern terms to explain how the ancient energy art is train and develop....

I guarentee it will produce very fast and good result. I have tried it so I know. one could by passed the Emei 12 zhuang and directly get into the fundamental level of the training without get stuck in Chinese culture/tradition or Emei culture/tradition ....etc. Go direct to where the money is.

This type of new philosophy cut away the old chinese tradition but present the essential. it also using today's fundamental component, Energy level, to set a clear and precise training path. For example, how to cultivate the sensitivity, there in Maser Lee's book, is explain and present the training process very well. Thus, the above 5 level of cultivation and attainment could be achieved without mumbo jumbo but clearly.

a clearlification I must make here is that I am not against learning chinese tradition or culture or following the chinese culture for I am a chinese decendent myself. However, there is a point we need to know what is the culture and tradition components which we respect and what is the Natural content we need to cultivate otherwise we have no clue of handling the nature or flow with the Dao.

master lee's english book is coming out in three months time, Kungfu magazine.com will carry it for those who is interested.

So, we dont put anyone in fault but build this new philosophy and science up. So we all will be able to communicate someday.

BTW, there is a problem in get stuck in the Chinese old clasical qouting. See, lots of us qout the old chinese tex. but honestly, how many really know what is what?

with the new philosophy we could take those who is training SLT to go throught the 5 level within 2 days. let them have a "taste" of what is going on and so they could start thier journey in training. have a sense of direction of what needs to be train and balance out thier training, that is what the chinese use to say, Sifu bring you into the door, and kung fu cultivation is your own effort.

without this type of "tasting" one could spend a whole life doing SLT and have no clue where one is going. It is just a waste of life. and at the end one end up doing Hunggar and CLF but thinking one is doing WCK. That is real sad, IMHO

couch

09-30-2007, 10:51 AM

Kenton,

I use to think like that too.

but after I met my sifu master Lee

http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

who is the pioneer in both the chinese qigong and energy handling scientific research, I have learn from him that this could be change. what we need is a new philosophy and science that is deeper and broader then what we have today. without get stuck in Chinese Culture, Tradition...etc. Let's face it alots of things we practice today in CMA or even Chinese Buddhism or Chan has nothing todo with the Law of the NATURAL or the teaching of the Buddha, but it is purely Chinese Culture and Tradition. Certainly practice those stuffs will make one understand more about Chinese but it is not going to improve one's physical or mental ability. and we most of the time just dont want to accept we are actually following a "religion" instead of cultivating the NAture or Dao. So, how much DAO is DAO even thought we keep qouting Lao Tze about Dao this and Dao that. but what we really practice is not DAO but Chinese tradition.

and Dao has no nationality or race.

To be real honest, I am proposing to use Master Lee's multi-dimentional energy state philosophy and training process to explain and train the SLT/SNT. he is using Bio-logical computer, Bio-logical scaning system..... modern terms to explain how the ancient energy art is train and develop....

I guarentee it will produce very fast and good result. I have tried it so I know. one could by passed the Emei 12 zhuang and directly get into the fundamental level of the training without get stuck in Chinese culture/tradition or Emei culture/tradition ....etc. Go direct to where the money is.

This type of new philosophy cut away the old chinese tradition but present the essential. it also using today's fundamental component, Energy level, to set a clear and precise training path. For example, how to cultivate the sensitivity, there in Maser Lee's book, is explain and present the training process very well. Thus, the above 5 level of cultivation and attainment could be achieved without mumbo jumbo but clearly.

a clearlification I must make here is that I am not against learning chinese tradition or culture or following the chinese culture for I am a chinese decendent myself. However, there is a point we need to know what is the culture and tradition components which we respect and what is the Natural content we need to cultivate otherwise we have no clue of handling the nature or flow with the Dao.

His english book is coming out in three months time, Kungfu magazine.com will carry it for those who is interested.

So, we dont put anyone in fault but build this new philosophy and science up. So we all will be able to communicate someday.

BTW, there is a problem in get stuck in the Chinese old clasical qouting. See, lots of us qout the old chinese tex. but honestly, how many really know what is what?

I understand what you are saying about taking the culture out of it to maybe make it easier and faster.

The only thing is that why all the equipment? Just to explain to all the 'scientists' that it works? All the naysayers? I don't care about that as a Chinese Medicine Practitioner/Acupuncturist.

When the client walks in after western medicine has failed and I use a method based on weather pattern diagnosis...they walk out about to (maybe) walk, talk, swallow, etc. Some clients who are in touch with their more emotional and spiritual side benefit the greatest and find direction in their life. You can't measure that with a meter.

I'm not arguing per se with you, but just saying that all this high tech equipment is really nice and all, but it's not what people REALLY want.

They think that they want to be diagnosed with depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, dystonia, etc. But they don't. They want all their hopes and fears and body sensations validated. They want to be heard and loved.

Sorry for the rant. I'm usually pretty quiet about this stuff that bounces around in my brain.

Thanks for the discussion,
Kenton Sefcik

Hendrik

09-30-2007, 11:01 AM

Kenton,

Human body has its own sensing system.

However, before those could be develop and use, we need the high tech equipment to aids us.

See, I dont use the EEG machine these days because my body is sensitive enough to tell me if I am getting into different states.

But for the beginer, IMHO, all aids is good aids to build up confident for thier cultivation and knows what they are doing.

in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

we dont use high tech equipment but that is after we know how to get into the state we desire via alignment....

it is about technology once one get it it is there. Master Lee, my sifu even have done energy research that influencing the DNA. Yes, there are process to do that and it is not just talk or wishfull thinking but driving into the DNA depth real!

however these stuffs needs 2 hours a day's training for everyday to get somewhere. it is just not something one talk and chat will get there. for those who spend 2 hours a day result is obvious.

as for how to handle one's own Emotion or energy in motion in one's body, that is a 12hours or waking time daily job. and yes, the EEG could measure this and needed to because until one develop that sensing, one needs to rely on the aids to make sure one produce result properly. has anyone asked the question why one's silence meditation works and the other dont? silence meditation must work for all if we clearly know the dominant root key and know how to handle it. That, the hight tech equipment could help us to pin point and fine tune ourself or even synthesis our sifu's experience into us. it is about communication beyond language but directly via experience.

So, is SLT internal? do we know the direction? do we know the level of training? do we know the process of the training? Do we spend 2 hours aday develop it? if yes, WCK is beyond internal.

if not then SLT is not even external. for one needs to walk 20 mins a day as a minimun to just get walking to be effectively influence one's health.

what to argue? what to discuss? the fact itself is self sufficient to tell the truth.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Xiao3 Meng4

09-30-2007, 01:57 PM

I had a huge long response to you, Hendrik, but a moment of sanity made me realize that it was a waste of time and energy, so I deleted it. It is my understanding that you are a psychic vampire intent on draining our Qi. :eek: :D ;)

You know, I would agree with you years ago.

However, now I DONT!

I'm not saying you should agree with me. Are you saying I should agree with you?

Human body has its own sensing system.

However, before those could be develop and use, we need the high tech equipment to aids us.

You're entitled to your views. I sincerely hope you allow others the same right.

I like quotes, so here are a few more:

"A moon in many ponds; in every pond, the same moon." -Some Japanese Guy

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - Krishnamurti

"The world is too busy: No one will ever be enlightened again." -A disgruntled Daoist

"Less is more" - Ludwig Mies van der Rohe

Cheers
Christian

Please help raise awareness about this cause and causes like it (http://www.survival-international.org/campaigns/uncontactedtribes) (especially since they don't have access to high-tech Qi machines, forever dooming them to be ignorant of their true natures :rolleyes: )

Hendrik

09-30-2007, 09:07 PM

I had a huge long response to you, Hendrik, but a moment of sanity made me realize that it was a waste of time and energy, so I deleted it. It is my understanding that you are a psychic vampire intent on draining our Qi. :eek: :D ;)

I'm not saying you should agree with me. Are you saying I should agree with you?

You're entitled to your views. I sincerely hope you allow others the same right.

I like quotes, so here are a few more:

"A moon in many ponds; in every pond, the same moon." -Some Japanese Guy

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - Krishnamurti

"The world is too busy: No one will ever be enlightened again." -A disgruntled Daoist

"Less is more" - Ludwig Mies van der Rohe

Cheers
Christian

Please help raise awareness about this cause and causes like it (http://www.survival-international.org/campaigns/uncontactedtribes) (especially since they don't have access to high-tech Qi machines, forever dooming them to be ignorant of their true natures :rolleyes: )

hahaha,

I never force others to believe what I share. Read my post, I present what I know. that's it. it is upto others to filter what they would like to believe.

Read your posts, why so offensive and fill with fear and turn personal?

Sure, you are entitle to believe your view.
if you got process to evoke the Qi share with us here how to evoke it? I am sure lots of people here would love to test your technology out to evoke the Qi. how to do it? please share.

As for using the equipment to train and monitor one's qi and energy cultivation. the Top Qigong practioners in China, Japan, and USA are so confident and open to all type of testing with high tech equipments. what to complain if the top people dont complain?

peace

couch

10-01-2007, 01:39 AM

As for using the equipment to train and monitor one's qi and energy cultivation. the Top Qigong practioners in China, Japan, and USA are so confident and open to all type of testing with high tech equipments. what to complain if the top people dont complain?

peace

Because we need to challenge the 'absolute' western mindframe.

You can't quantify healing and that is what makes what I do a beautiful thing.

No machine will ever replace the human experience. Look at the radial pulse reading machines that Korea developed? Garbage as far as I am concerned. I also feel the same way about those Acupuncture point locators that find 'elevated' energies. They (personal experience) don't work.

Nothing replaces the human touch.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Xiao3 Meng4

10-01-2007, 11:06 AM

Someone needs to get held down and pink-bellied. :mad:

Read your posts, why so offensive and fill with fear and turn personal?

Fear is not the issue. I do get annoyed by your condescension and competitive, aggressive nature regarding your viewpoint vs. the viewpoint of others though. You yourself engage in offensive behaviour, attacking and belittling the personal viewpoints of others. If you're offended by what it is that I'm writing, then so be it. Put me on ignore.

I recently made some big lifestyle changes in my life. If I went around telling people who didn't make the same changes "you know, I used to live like you, but now I don't," that would be personal, condescending, judgmental, and implying that I live a better life than they do. When you come on here, laugh, and express that same mentality regarding people's worldviews, it's offensive and annoys me. On a better day, I would just shrug it off as the expression of your wounded psyche, but not today.

Likewise, you say that you do not force others to believe what you're saying, yet through your aggressive, competitive posting, you make every attempt to reduce the viewpoints of others to nothing more than childish fantasy, claiming that your view is superior. Then you go on to say "please, we are all interested in what you have to say. Please share." It seems to me you're just looking for another opportunity to play your game at the expense of someone else's truths. Again, I could choose not to respond, hence giving you nothing to play with, but not today.

When someone calls you on your behaviour, you take the opportunity to cry foul, and claim that person is being offensive and personal. Ever heard of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) before?

In fact, the more I think about it, the more TROLL-like your behaviour is... although, admittedly, your persona is one of a sophisticated troll in a housecoat and slippers: wearing spectacles, smoking a pipe and sitting in a lay-Z-boy. Still a troll, though.

This is why I claim that responding to you in any intimate way is a waste of time and energy.

I do not claim to be egoless, or buddha-like. I have challenges in my life, as do many other people, I'm sure. In fact, this week has been particularly stressful. If it's made me overly sensitive and my posts overly aggressive, rest assured that things move in cycles, and my responses will change accordingly. However I stand by my claim that you are a troll.

Sure, you are entitle to believe your view.
if you got process to evoke the Qi share with us here how to evoke it? I am sure lots of people here would love to test your technology out to evoke the Qi. how to do it? please share.

As I've stated before, Qi is qualitative, not quantitative. We've had this discussion before, Hendrik. If you really MUST know what some of my views are, reread the threads where we discussed it before. In brief, Gong Fu requires wholistic transmission. You yourself keep harping on the fact that it's impossible to understand unless you experience it.

Anyone that wants to visit me is entitled to do so, and I'll GLADLY spend as much time as I can sharing and trying out what you have to share. I'm just a pm away from making those kinds of arrangements, bearing in mind that I will be in transition for the next few weeks. As of November, there will be more opportunities.

Generally, I try to adopt the view that everyone leads a harder life than mine, and should therefore be treated gently. Hendrik, I will admit that it's really hard to interact with you from that perspective. You give me so many reasons to believe you live a sheltered, cushy, prince-like life. Of course, my beliefs are irrelevant. I'm sure you've had hardships, just as we all have. If you want to respond to me with aggression, condescension, and the same general tone that I've layed out here, you are free to do so, and I won't hold it against you. I know this isn't my nicest or best post ever, trust me on that. I don't like these kinds of posts, but I'm just really tired of the stupid, crappy, repetitive and stagnant dialogues that seem to pile up in a smelly heap when you post.

...I guess that's a clear mark of a troll.

Regarding trolls, I think I'll take my lesson from seagulls. Respect their right to exist, but don't feed them, or else you spend your time shouting and shooing them away.

Bah. Into the pile this one goes.

Hendrik

10-01-2007, 12:38 PM

Someone needs to get held down and pink-bellied. :mad:

Fear is not the issue. I do get annoyed by your condescension and competitive, aggressive nature regarding your viewpoint vs. the viewpoint of others though. You yourself engage in offensive behaviour, attacking and belittling the personal viewpoints of others. If you're offended by what it is that I'm writing, then so be it. Put me on ignore.

I recently made some big lifestyle changes in my life. If I went around telling people who didn't make the same changes "you know, I used to live like you, but now I don't," that would be personal, condescending, judgmental, and implying that I live a better life than they do. When you come on here, laugh, and express that same mentality regarding people's worldviews, it's offensive and annoys me. On a better day, I would just shrug it off as the expression of your wounded psyche, but not today.

Likewise, you say that you do not force others to believe what you're saying, yet through your aggressive, competitive posting, you make every attempt to reduce the viewpoints of others to nothing more than childish fantasy, claiming that your view is superior. Then you go on to say "please, we are all interested in what you have to say. Please share." It seems to me you're just looking for another opportunity to play your game at the expense of someone else's truths. Again, I could choose not to respond, hence giving you nothing to play with, but not today.

When someone calls you on your behaviour, you take the opportunity to cry foul, and claim that person is being offensive and personal. Ever heard of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) before?

In fact, the more I think about it, the more TROLL-like your behaviour is... although, admittedly, your persona is one of a sophisticated troll in a housecoat and slippers: wearing spectacles, smoking a pipe and sitting in a lay-Z-boy. Still a troll, though.

This is why I claim that responding to you in any intimate way is a waste of time and energy.

I do not claim to be egoless, or buddha-like. I have challenges in my life, as do many other people, I'm sure. In fact, this week has been particularly stressful. If it's made me overly sensitive and my posts overly aggressive, rest assured that things move in cycles, and my responses will change accordingly. However I stand by my claim that you are a troll.

As I've stated before, Qi is qualitative, not quantitative. We've had this discussion before, Hendrik. If you really MUST know what some of my views are, reread the threads where we discussed it before. In brief, Gong Fu requires wholistic transmission. You yourself keep harping on the fact that it's impossible to understand unless you experience it.

Anyone that wants to visit me is entitled to do so, and I'll GLADLY spend as much time as I can sharing and trying out what you have to share. I'm just a pm away from making those kinds of arrangements, bearing in mind that I will be in transition for the next few weeks. As of November, there will be more opportunities.

Generally, I try to adopt the view that everyone leads a harder life than mine, and should therefore be treated gently. Hendrik, I will admit that it's really hard to interact with you from that perspective. You give me so many reasons to believe you live a sheltered, cushy, prince-like life. Of course, my beliefs are irrelevant. I'm sure you've had hardships, just as we all have. If you want to respond to me with aggression, condescension, and the same general tone that I've layed out here, you are free to do so, and I won't hold it against you. I know this isn't my nicest or best post ever, trust me on that. I don't like these kinds of posts, but I'm just really tired of the stupid, crappy, repetitive and stagnant dialogues that seem to pile up in a smelly heap when you post.

...I guess that's a clear mark of a troll.

Regarding trolls, I think I'll take my lesson from seagulls. Respect their right to exist, but don't feed them, or else you spend your time shouting and shooing them away.

Bah. Into the pile this one goes.

Thank you for your comment.

May be I am as you said.
May be I am not.
May be something I post which has nothing to do with anything triggle your hot bottom because you are wanting approval and agreement subsconciously
May be I am just a mirror and what you feel and see is yourself?

See, it is a usual case that if we are not thinking on certain things or certain bias... we dont accuse others on doing it.

perhaps it is not me pushing but your resistance to the world create such big energy to upset you?

Read your post and read mine, see what is in our subsconcious? your shen is not in tranquil your mind is not in silence that is forsure without needed any high tech equipments to measure your EEG.

See, In WCK we said comes accept goes let it back. we dont resist so we dont experience those big push or power struggle. I dont know what is your art. but reading your post certainly shows me you are not a WCner in practice. nothing good or bad but different.

if you are not a WCner, then why here discussing about WC is internal or external?

perhap my not agree with you triggle your wanting approval hot botton?

Hey, it is a technical discussion. I have no interest in approve or dis approve of you. Bring up technical topic and discuss, otherwise it is wasting others bandwidth.

Peace

mantis108

10-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Once upon a time, a couple went to Captain Orgazmo for their intimacy issues. So the Captain said "Ah, you have never experienced orgazism althogether, that's why you have so many problems!" Then he presented the couple with two $500 ********s. The couple used them individually and experienced what they believed is orgazism. So they thanked the Captain for giving them a life changing experience. In order to make sure they will get what the Captain calls the "state" everytime, they bought the ********s for $1000.00. After they went home, they tried to have sex with each other. But they couldn't have orgazism state. So they go for the ********s again individually before sex with each other believing that they can have "orgazism" together thus gaining their intimacy with each other. But they never have the intimacy that they set out to get going to the Captain. Furthermore, they eventually discovered that they can get a $50.00 electronic massager to do the same job for much less money. Yet they still have not solved their issues because they "know" and trust the machines to deliver the "state" better then their human partner.

So my friends please consider the Captain Orgazmo's parable before you accept the Chewbacca defense on orgazism. ;) :D

Have a nice one.

Mantis108

Hendrik

10-01-2007, 02:20 PM

Great story and there are some truth in it.

Best Regards
Hendrik

Xiao3 Meng4

10-01-2007, 08:19 PM

your shen is not in tranquil...that is forsure without needed any high tech equipments to measure your EEG

As I stated in my last post, you are entitled to treat me the same way that I treated you. I know I had this Karma comin'.

I dont know what is your art. but reading your post certainly shows me you are not a WCner in practice.

I had this comin' too. According to you, though, everyone who practices differently than you (or refuses to discuss their methods with you) and without expensive high-tech machines isn't doing Wing Chun - a view which you are entitled to.

perhap my not agree with you triggle your wanting approval hot botton?

It's not your lack of agreeing with me; it's your method of doing so. It's not my "wanting approval" hot button.. It's my "respect the views and opinions of others" hot button. It would be one thing to disagree objectively, and have rational explanations as to why. It's quite another to laugh, claim you used to think like someone, but "now you know better," and flat out tell people they are wrong because they don't agree with YOU. That's pretty egotistical in my book. I'm sure I've done it in the past, but I work at avoiding that kind of behaviour because I know how upsetting it can be.

Hey, it is a technical discussion. I have no interest in approve or dis approve of you. Bring up technical topic and discuss, otherwise it is wasting others bandwidth.

You counter almost every technical topic anyone brings up with "haha....that's not how it is...You must do what I do and buy this device I'm constantly talking about or else you will suck at what you do." I'm paraphrasing, Hendrik, yet my point is that nearly every one of your posts can be boiled down to the above sentence, which is why I (and others, most likely) are so reluctant to discuss anything with you. Again, it seems like troll behaviour when you ask for details but reply with nearly exactly the same thing over and over.

Finally, let me make my position perfectly clear: It is my mandate to help people attain SELF-RELIANCE - that is, to be INDEPENDENT OF COMMERCIAL ITEMS AND COMPLEX TECHNOLOGIES (technologies that cannot be simply constructed by oneself.) To that effect, I am OPPOSED TO THE USE OF COMMERCIAL OR COMPLEX TECHNOLOGY IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF SELF-RELIANCE. It is my experience that Qi Gong plays a pivotal role in the development of self-reliance, no matter what the delivery system - be it from Wing Chun, Tai Ji, Yoga, American Shamanism, or wherever - as long as the system is nature based and free of commercial and complex technologies. All that is required is a minimum of skill, a competent teacher, and dedicated training.

You, on the other hand, have made it clear in most of your posts that you adopt a relatively opposite view. Perhaps it is because you approach this whole issue from a scholarly perspective as opposed to a practitioner's perspective: I don't know for sure. Quite simply, though, we will never agree on certain aspects.

I've made my position clear, you've made yours clear, so now there's nothing left to discuss regarding this point. Let's simply agree to disagree, shall we? And if that makes us practice different arts, then that's fine, too. After all, that's one of the beauties of art: its variety.

Wishing everybody well in their studies and practices
Christian

P.S. Loved the Orgazism story. :D

SimonM

08-11-2008, 12:15 PM

i deny the illusion of the world.

And yet you remain so strongly attached to your own rage.

kwaichancan't

08-11-2008, 02:25 PM

Disapointing. i came onto this forum to learn. i had hoped that a gung fu discussion forum would have a touch more of the real spirit of arts.

In response to the original, Yip Chun described feeling internal energy when he was doing sil lim tao. I did chen t'ai chi before I did wing chun, and that influences my W.C. because it's hard wired in now. There's no such thing as a purely internal or purely external system, and it certainly couldn't hurt to develop your practice by adding internal exercises to your routine. There'll be stuff from your Yang you could do. Internal work will onhly enhance your Wing Chun, and it doesn't need to interfere with proper form or compromise the principles of the system by changing stances and suchlike.

couch

08-12-2008, 06:16 AM

Disapointing. i came onto this forum to learn. i had hoped that a gung fu discussion forum would have a touch more of the real spirit of arts.

Ah. Your first mistake. Mine too. LOL

kung fu fighter

08-12-2008, 10:32 AM

Fist from the heart means internal, using YI or spirit!

Lee Chiang Po

08-12-2008, 08:29 PM

Speaking of the internal side. I think that it all comes down to Chi. Most don't know what it is and it has got to be the most difficult thing to explain to anyone that has never felt it. I feel that it can not really be explained to one that does not know what it is. It develops as your skills develop. No matter what it is that you are doing. Anything physical I would guess. The more you do something, the better that you are going to be able to do it. Eventually this skill gets to the point that you can feel the inner energies that flow as you perform these physical moves.
I can give a simple example. I was a printer as a day job for about 35 years before retiring. In my early years of printing, I was running a small letter press. When I place or remove the platten from the press I would use the heel of my right hand to lift the latch. I would just place my fingers on the lever and then quickly palm it. Everyone else used a long metal pin wrench to lever it open. I could just palm it and it would move enough to release the latch. I got so good with this and was able to do it many times in a day. The lever was loaded with a very strong spring, and there was a stop on the back so that the lever would not go up too high. Eventually I was driving it against the stop so hard that I was shearing the lever off. It was steel. 1 inch wide, 3/8 inch thick, and probably about 6 inches long. It would fly off up into the ceiling. I broke many of them. Eventually I would file off the stop so that it would not impact. The same occured a few years before that. I started out knocking the trim off boxes as they were die cut. I used a tack hammer for this and eventually had to go to a steel handle because the hickory handles would not last a shift. This breaking power was not necessarily trained, but it did occur because of repetitive skill and Chi. I can strike very hard with either hand.
I think internal WC might actually exist, but I think it is something that develops on it's own as you achieve higher skill. Once you realize it and feel it, you can then learn to control it.
On the subject of adrenaline. I have known an individual that would go into a complete rage on just thinking about something. It didn't have to happen either. He only had to imagine it. He was on parole for killing some one because of it. And eventually he had to go back because he simply could not control his temper. It was learned that his adrenaline dump was massive and occured at the drop of a hat. It only required medication to control. This is something that varies from individual to individual. I feel fear any time I realize I am going to have to fight. Fighting is a serious matter. No referee, no judge, no one to break you up. No tap outs, no point systems. People can get injured or even killed when actually fighting. The most skilled and ferocious fighter can get laid out by a lucky punch. Knowing that you have skills to survive will possibly help you to maintain cool, but it would be difficult to avoid the adrenaline dump. You simply have to develop the skills of concentration. This is how you overcome fear and the adrenaline dump.

Hendrik

08-28-2008, 01:03 PM

Speaking of the internal side. I think that it all comes down to Chi. ----

Chi is only a part of it.

Most don't know what it is and it has got to be the most difficult thing to explain to anyone that has never felt it. ------

how can one explain to those who have never eat orange the taste of orange?

I feel that it can not really be explained to one that does not know what it is. ----

It cannot be explain. however it can be cultivate and experience. similar to one cannot explain what orange taste like, however if one really knows orange than one can get one to the others. and it is up to the others to open his/her mouth to taste it. Certainly, some might choose not to open thier mouth but keeping speculate via thier imagination.

It develops as your skills develop. ------

Nope, it is not by default. There are skill or Kung that develop Qi/Chi there are skill that doesnt do anything to qi . In fact Qi is decreasing directly propotional to aging and decreasing for ordinary people who dont know how to cultivate it.

No matter what it is that you are doing. Anything physical I would guess. -----

Guessing work doesnt applied to Qi. Guess = Dont know.

The more you do something, the better that you are going to be able to do it.
Eventually this skill gets to the point that you can feel the inner energies that flow as you perform these physical moves. -----

will cook sand for 1000 years can be come rice?

I can give a simple example. I was a printer as a day job for about 35 years before retiring. In my early years of printing, I was running a small letter press. When I place or remove the platten from the press I would use the heel of my right hand to lift the latch. I would just place my fingers on the lever and then quickly palm it. Everyone else used a long metal pin wrench to lever it open. I could just palm it and it would move enough to release the latch. I got so good with this and was able to do it many times in a day. The lever was loaded with a very strong spring, and there was a stop on the back so that the lever would not go up too high. Eventually I was driving it against the stop so hard that I was shearing the lever off. It was steel. 1 inch wide, 3/8 inch thick, and probably about 6 inches long. It would fly off up into the ceiling. I broke many of them. Eventually I would file off the stop so that it would not impact. The same occured a few years before that. I started out knocking the trim off boxes as they were die cut. I used a tack hammer for this and eventually had to go to a steel handle because the hickory handles would not last a shift.

This breaking power was not necessarily trained, but it did occur because of repetitive skill and Chi. I can strike very hard with either hand. -----

Qi or Chi forsure is not a synoname of Unknown or dont know.
It is Qi or it is something else? or a combination of a certain things?

I think internal WC might actually exist, but I think it is something that develops on it's own as you achieve higher skill. Once you realize it and feel it, you can then learn to control it. --------

Think doesnt do a thing on the taste of orange if one have never taste one.

On the subject of adrenaline. I have known an individual that would go into a complete rage on just thinking about something. It didn't have to happen either. He only had to imagine it. He was on parole for killing some one because of it. And eventually he had to go back because he simply could not control his temper. It was learned that his adrenaline dump was massive and occured at the drop of a hat. It only required medication to control. This is something that varies from individual to individual. I feel fear any time I realize I am going to have to fight. Fighting is a serious matter. No referee, no judge, no one to break you up. No tap outs, no point systems. People can get injured or even killed when actually fighting. The most skilled and ferocious fighter can get laid out by a lucky punch. Knowing that you have skills to survive will possibly help you to maintain cool, but it would be difficult to avoid the adrenaline dump. You simply have to develop the skills of concentration. This is how you overcome fear and the adrenaline dump. -----

the wingchun kuen kuit says, " using silence to direct action" Silence is internal. Until one has silence and master it, one has no handling in adrenaline. without be able to handle adrenaline, one doesnt have handle on Qi.

Internal is not inside the body. Internal open up another paradigm or open up layers and layers of reality which one usually in general doesnt aware.

Using the common view to imagine what is that paradigm or those layers and layers are just a waste of life.

Thus, I have heard,

Wing Chun kuen kuit says, " comes accept, Goes also accepts and let them leave, allow things to be free and be free, using the silence to direct action."

These are the solid description of Internal. Those who knows sees the expansion of paradigm and the surface of layers and layers. Shen, Qi, Yee, Jing.... all is there.

logical speculation thinking or Day dreaming cant get one to know the taste or an orange.

get a real orange, will to open the mouth, and put into the mouth and taste it. That doesnt need a thought at all.

But how many waste thier life arguing orange exist or non exist without even know, it just takes a second to open the mouth and taste the orange and one knows what it is effortlessly?

So long.

WingChunWay

08-30-2008, 03:21 AM

Xiao3 Meng4

08-30-2008, 06:25 AM

While not specifically related to Wing Chun, this is an easy, enjoyable and informative read on the subject of Qi.

http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/BriHisQi.cfm

CSP

couch

08-30-2008, 07:59 AM

While not specifically related to Wing Chun, this is an easy, enjoyable and informative read on the subject of Qi.

http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/BriHisQi.cfm

CSP

Thank you! I haven't been exposed to this book. Being an acupunk I think it might be a future purchase!

All the best,
K

Hendrik

08-30-2008, 10:40 AM

Until one can generate Zhen Qi at will. One has no clue on what is Qi. even after one could generate Zhen Qi at will. That is just a begining.

As for internal, those are on open up a different paradigm.

It is a different world....

That book is good. But it is still about Talking qi --- trying to explain how orange taste like with the author might not have not experience the orange --- not Qi.

why wasting time read about it or mimic about it. find a sifu, go baisi, and learn the real thing. after a year, everything will be different.

Hendrik

08-30-2008, 10:46 AM

Hi Guys
How about a chi demo? It would be great to see these oranges. Youtube it!
I wish I could lay claim to such feats, but a still mind with good old bio mechanics will have to do me.
Good to see you posting Hendrik! Havent been online line much to enjoy your poetry. I put some vids up, more like apples than oranges though. LOL
Happy training,
Mark Rasmus

Could you please explain what is Buddhist Wing Chun means?

Chi demo? no demo, if you know the process, you will be able to generate it at your will. One needs to go to baisi to a sifu to learn those. it is something people cultivate weeks and months and years. Cant do it with a seminal or reading books.

There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

WingChunWay

08-30-2008, 05:51 PM

Could you please explain what is Buddhist Wing Chun means?

Hi Hendrik,
I teach Buddhism in classes, so I refer to as Buddhist Wing Chun.

Chi demo? no demo, if you know the process, you will be able to generate it at your will. One needs to go to baisi to a sifu to learn those. it is something people cultivate weeks and months and years. Cant do it with a seminal or reading books.

No Demo? Why not? Dont you know how to issue force? Well of course you do, you speak in a condescending way to people like you are way up there. But refuse to simply show a few seconds of footage of you issuing? Hmm makes you wonder.

There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

Fusing the mind into the body with deep relaxation to power the body mechanics will generate allot of the so called chi phenomena. So why confuse people with talking about chi? Why don't you define the development process, rather than talking about oranges. If it exists and it is real, there must be a method of developing it. Define the method.
Just a few thoughts and still enjoying your poetry.
Mark

Katsu Jin Ken

08-30-2008, 07:51 PM

IMO qi is another word for bloodflow & focus

Lee Chiang Po

08-30-2008, 08:55 PM

Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. First of all, Qi, or Chi, is not some invisible force that one develops like in a star wars movie. Qi is simply an electrical flow that follows your blood flow. It works quite well with accupuncture. It rediates out from your belly button. That is where your life began. Dangling from the end of an umbilical cord. You can disrupt that flow and it will disrupt everything from that point on to the point to where it stops, which is the very tips of your digits. It can not be thrown or cast from your body like some forcefield. It flows along perfectly aligned structure making it stronger. That is the best that I can explain it. I am not that good with discriptions. It is easy for you to sit and exude yourself as some sort of master of Qi force, but you have not made a single attempt at describing it except to talk about oranges. Maybe you have, but like I said, you are not making sense.
Speaking of oranges, I put gasoline in my old truck now and then. I could not tell you exactly what is in that gasoline, but I can tell you exactly what it does. This is the same thing with Chi. I can not fully explain to anyone what it is that I feel when I feel it, but I can explain what it does for me. I might be right or I might be wrong, as I don't think anyone really knows, but it is my own personal opinion that Chi is nothing more than biomechanics approaching perfection. I have been a chunner for half a century, and although I have not trained it in a few years now, I did so regularly for most of that time. I think I might have developed at least some biomechanical skills in that time. And maybe a little Chi too.

Chiang

WingChunWay

08-30-2008, 09:22 PM

IMO qi is another word for bloodflow & focus

There seems to be allot of chi kung teachers who translate the words "chi kung" as "energy work". So adding an extra description next to the word "Chi" to describe what type of energy it is, might be appropriate. Hendrik is good with translating so he might have more definitions of it.
I first studied under a western metaphysics teacher who only used English terms.
For example he used the terms "vital energy" to describe the bio energy of the body. Each type of energy had a descriptive word with it and a process of developing insight into it, then a process of developing mastery over it if appropriate. Everything had a set of laws which defined it. Being a westerner trying to tap into chinese thinking is not easy for me, so I just stick with the western terms and principles which mostly come from india anyway. There is only one dhamma (universal laws) so no matter what language we use, they are pointing at the same thing.
I found it best to present the techniques to discern what vital energy is, rather than talk about vital energy. Talking about it creates false views. Working with proven methods brings about direct insight into the term. There are many methods to experience it.
Here is one method I received through the Shingon Buddhist school.

Breath meditation

Sit quietly, still the mind.
Bring your awareness to your breathing.
Breathe into the lower diaphragm sinking the mind to your COG.
Breathe out directing a current of relaxation down to the tailbone up the spine, over the top of the head, through the tip of your tongue and out of your mouth.
Repeat until you become comfortable with it.
Then add counting.
Breath into the COG behind the navel in the middle of your body.
Breath out in the same manner as before, but begin pronouncing the number 1
Breath in and finish pronouncing the number 1 aloud.
Repeat upto 10 then start again. This will regulate the in and out breath correctly
After a few minutes, do the counting silently.
By the end of the exercise, the COG becomes warm, the mind and energy of the body is centered.

I believe variations of this exercise have been taught in Japan for about 1200 years through the Shingon school. So it has been thoroughly tested. It is the first basic meditation training in that school.

Law of resonance in regards to learning

Imagine the frequency of your body to act as a tuning fork. If you are around other tuning forks of the same frequency that are being activated, your tuning fork will begin to vibrate due to their energy output if on the same frequency.
So practicing this in a group allows you to first tune the frequency in while others are activating it for you. Before long you have received the transmission well enough to remember it and repeat it on your own. Taking advantage of this speeds up development and keeps you on track. Hence the need for a teacher.

Just a few thoughts
Mark

kung fu fighter

08-30-2008, 10:44 PM

KPM

08-31-2008, 08:30 AM

Hendrik wrote:
There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

---Ah! Glad to see you actually admitting that, because you sure didn't admit that in the past! On more than thread talking about biomechanics you jumped in to say that we didn't know what we were talking about and that it was all about Qi development. I'm happy to see you finally refining your viewpoint a bit. :D

Mark wrote:
why confuse people with talking about chi? Why don't you define the development process, rather than talking about oranges. If it exists and it is real, there must be a method of developing it.

---I've followed Hendrik's posts for several years now, and that's his standard approach. Don't expect him to provide any real guidance or information or you will be disppointed! He will continue to talk in riddles and innuendos and tell you to go Bai Shi with someone who knows. He seldom comes here to discuss things in an actual give and take exchange. Years back he used to post about some of his historical research, and that was good. But ask him about how he does his own Wing Chun or what it consists of and you will be disappointed.

Lee wrote:
Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about.

---I feel your frustration Lee, because I have been there many times with Hendrik myself! But I think that Hendrik does have some real knowledge. He is just unwilling to share it.

---Don't get me wrong. I'm not posting here to put down Hendrik. I'm just trying to get you guys to avoid the frustration I've known many times when trying to discuss anything with Hendrik. It won't go anywhere! Don't worry about Hendrik or what he has to say because he won't share anything real. He'll tell you that you are on the wrong path and don't know what you are talking about, then when you ask him to explain or elaborate he'll just tell you to go "Bai Shi." So ignore him and have your own discussion.

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 03:14 PM

I teach Buddhism in classes, so I refer to as Buddhist Wing Chun.---

Ok. Thanks. But Buddhism is oppose fighting or even defending. When things are non dual. There is no fighting or defending.

Remember as it said " comes accept, goes accept and let it goes back...." Isnt that non dual? Get it?

No Demo? Why not? Dont you know how to issue force? Well of course you do, ----

You couldnt see what people do with issue force and lots of those are show business.

from the above non dual core concept there is no preparation but naturally flow... Thus, that is the concept we all missed and keep thinking we have to do this or that.

So, the key to internal is Non-Dual, Accept, Let Go let God. and if one is there why even bring up fighting or defending. Just let it be. There one is free. Win or lost is ok.

you speak in a condescending way to people like you are way up there. But refuse to simply show a few seconds of footage of you issuing? Hmm makes you wonder.------

I have never refuse any one. I answer what I know according to my level. but I would not speak in the duality term if I am trying to present non dual.

Fusing the mind into the body with deep relaxation to power the body mechanics will generate allot of the so called chi phenomena. -----

Chi has martial Chi or literate chi. one drain one's body. one cultivate one's body. So, until one knows that and how to handle that. one doesnt know qi.

Go read all the book out there, see if they teach you what is the different on evoking martial chi or literate chi. one step wrong. one is in trouble.

So why confuse people with talking about chi? ----

I dont. I am trying to expand people's knowledge. such as If you teach Buddhism but never attain the Non Dual then all the delivation or speculation based on Duality is wrong. but how many could accept that? I couldnt either. I have to learn in the hard way with my life.

Why don't you define the development process, rather than talking about oranges.----

The best way is to get a sifu who have attainment.

Similar to Buddhism, if I dont have the Zen patriach Ven. Hsuan Hua who has the transmittion as sifu, how could I even know what is non dual?

NOt to mention, the development process is an always modifiying one. I myself still always screw up and need people advance then me to help me.

If it exists and it is real, there must be a method of developing it. Define the method.---

You problem is trying to use Duality to define non dual as we all are. and that bring one no where but frustration.

Do I frustrated too before having a sifu? yes. after that I am still frustrated because in the journey so many concept needs to be change....

Honest talk is always difficult. someday, when you are they you know. it is just obvious.

Dont teach fighting or defending, be no self that is what my Zen sifu taught me and now I am out of WCK.
Best Luck.

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 03:21 PM

you really do not make good sense at times. -----

I dont because I am trying to be honest and dont want to waste others life.

I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about. -----

Everything you say is ok with me. what I know or dont doesnt matter. I come from energy realm I will go back to energy realm. my name will be forgotten and that is nature.

First of all, Qi, or Chi, is not some invisible force that one develops like in a star wars movie. Qi is simply an electrical flow that follows your blood flow. It works quite well with accupuncture. It rediates out from your belly button. That is where your life began. Dangling from the end of an umbilical cord. You can disrupt that flow and it will disrupt everything from that point on to the point to where it stops, which is the very tips of your digits. It can not be thrown or cast from your body like some forcefield. It flows along perfectly aligned structure making it stronger. That is the best that I can explain it.----

By book you are 100000% correct.

I am not that good with discriptions. It is easy for you to sit and exude yourself as some sort of master of Qi force, but you have not made a single attempt at describing it except to talk about oranges. Maybe you have, but like I said, you are not making sense. --------

you could be right either way.

Speaking of oranges, I put gasoline in my old truck now and then. I could not tell you exactly what is in that gasoline, but I can tell you exactly what it does. This is the same thing with Chi. I can not fully explain to anyone what it is that I feel when I feel it, but I can explain what it does for me. I might be right or I might be wrong, as I don't think anyone really knows,--------

you are right. however, if one is a chemical engineer with petrorium expert. what will they say? until then how can one tell which gas is which grade...etc

but it is my own personal opinion that Chi is nothing more than biomechanics approaching perfection. ----

Nope.

biomechanics is a level lower then Chi.

I have been a chunner for half a century, and although I have not trained it in a few years now, I did so regularly for most of that time. I think I might have developed at least some biomechanical skills in that time. And maybe a little Chi too. -----

You sure might develop some biomechanical skill.

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 03:46 PM

There is no contradiction between bio machanics and qi, instead Qi will extend what one could do with bio machanics or bring bio machenics to a higher/deeper level. and there is no end to it.

---Ah! Glad to see you actually admitting that, because you sure didn't admit that in the past! On more than thread talking about biomechanics you jumped in to say that we didn't know what we were talking about and that it was all about Qi development. I'm happy to see you finally refining your viewpoint a bit. :D

Qi extend Bio machenics.
But Bio mechanics development is not equal to qi development.

By the anceint chinese martial art standard. until on got the qi part one is just excercising and sure that is good for biomechanics.

---I've followed Hendrik's posts for several years now, and that's his standard approach. Don't expect him to provide any real guidance or information or you will be disppointed! He will continue to talk in riddles and innuendos and tell you to go Bai Shi with someone who knows. He seldom comes here to discuss things in an actual give and take exchange. Years back he used to post about some of his historical research, and that was good. But ask him about how he does his own Wing Chun or what it consists of and you will be disappointed. ------

you jump gun. as always. hahaha.

Lee wrote:
Kendrik, you really do not make good sense at times. I am attempting to avoid being forceful in my opinions as it makes others think I am being arrogant or something, but I have to say here that I do not believe you know what you are talking about.

---I feel your frustration Lee, because I have been there many times with Hendrik myself! But I think that Hendrik does have some real knowledge. He is just unwilling to share it.

Not that I am unwilling to share. 1, if you want to do " comes accept. goes accept to let it goes...." you need none duality expereince, if you keep reading what I said with duality. then you are not going to know what I am talking about. and In fact I have already told you the answer.

2, even in my state, I need a sifu. the other day I just have a big screw up that can cause my life. so, if I have a sifu, I would not go that way....... There is no end to the training. and in fact the deeper one goes the mishandling a little cause a lots of problem.

Those are the facts.

---Don't get me wrong. I'm not posting here to put down Hendrik. I'm just trying to get you guys to avoid the frustration I've known many times when trying to discuss anything with Hendrik. It won't go anywhere! Don't worry about Hendrik or what he has to say because he won't share anything real. He'll tell you that you are on the wrong path and don't know what you are talking about, then when you ask him to explain or elaborate he'll just tell you to go "Bai Shi." So ignore him and have your own discussion.

You dont. You say what you say because you didnt enter the door.
Ask Jim, how far he wants to stop? I goes this far because i need to take care of my dna defect. Do I want to go this far? nope, it is due to live and death.

on other hand, what good is if I told you a trick to generate some power to hurt some one? as my sifu Ven Hsuan Hua told me. you do that the karma is going to return to you.

Well, I admit, I dig into lots of stuffs while I am doing the investigation on history and that comes the technics....etc. however, I also realized. should I tell you to hurt others? where you got to pay for it?

See, all of these are just a dream, we all are dreaming within the non dual. using the tool to realize non dual and set ourself free is better then using the tool to hurt someone and ego boost our identity but always trap withint the duality and suffer. there is un limited creating in Non Dual( the world you and me are one or no me) and there is un limited karma can be generate within duality ( the world you and me are seperate and struggle)

If my words can cause you to go to either direction. I choose to lead you to non dual. That way we both win.

think, what goods to be able to use shock jing and get a ego boost or invincible. But cant change one's own dna defect. what is the point? we are certainly not living on to showing off. but we all like to live in joy and peace and abundance. and Look at the past few generations of WCK, doesnt family fight with family, doesnt fight happen within family? Is that peace? what is it about Number 1? who is number 1?

Yes, there is process of cultivate Qi. and that is beyond what we think. Yes, in the process of cultivate Qi one needs a close sifu to monitor one to make changes.
yes, with qi one's SLT is different compare with without qi. Yes, Qi link direct to Shen and Yee Then body mechanics follow. Internal is those stuffs. and knowing internal without knowing non dual is set up for suffering either in this life or next one.

I pay my due and you think about it. there is nothing macho the day one die. disregard of who. and do we have handling on it or we goes on fantasy to be number one and when that day comes our qi defuse and no control? the day we die who care who are you? be it a super hero or a slump wimp. see I dont want to be a super hero or a slump wimp. those are the view of duality world. I want to be just I the non dual --- the free one. meet me there and you know wing chun internal. praise the spring is for eternity. only non dual can be eternal. the world within duality is the world of Change. There is no eternity.

my WingChun is about release and set free and non duality. This is how clear I can tell you all. If I die, then let's the world know, the decendent of Yik Kam, doing his best to preserve the concept of the SLT kuit. It is not about number one but about let go and let God to have as you like it in the non dual realm.

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 04:11 PM

There seems to be allot of chi kung teachers who translate the words "chi kung" as "energy work". So adding an extra description next to the word "Chi" to describe what type of energy it is, might be appropriate. Hendrik is good with translating so he might have more definitions of it.
I first studied under a western metaphysics teacher who only used English terms.
For example he used the terms "vital energy" to describe the bio energy of the body. Each type of energy had a descriptive word with it and a process of developing insight into it, then a process of developing mastery over it if appropriate. Everything had a set of laws which defined it. Being a westerner trying to tap into chinese thinking is not easy for me, so I just stick with the western terms and principles which mostly come from india anyway. There is only one dhamma (universal laws) so no matter what language we use, they are pointing at the same thing.
I found it best to present the techniques to discern what vital energy is, rather than talk about vital energy. Talking about it creates false views. Working with proven methods brings about direct insight into the term. There are many methods to experience it.
Here is one method I received through the Shingon Buddhist school.

Breath meditation

Sit quietly, still the mind.
Bring your awareness to your breathing.
Breathe into the lower diaphragm sinking the mind to your COG.
Breathe out directing a current of relaxation down to the tailbone up the spine, over the top of the head, through the tip of your tongue and out of your mouth.
Repeat until you become comfortable with it.
Then add counting.
Breath into the COG behind the navel in the middle of your body.
Breath out in the same manner as before, but begin pronouncing the number 1
Breath in and finish pronouncing the number 1 aloud.
Repeat upto 10 then start again. This will regulate the in and out breath correctly
After a few minutes, do the counting silently.
By the end of the exercise, the COG becomes warm, the mind and energy of the body is centered.

I believe variations of this exercise have been taught in Japan for about 1200 years through the Shingon school. So it has been thoroughly tested. It is the first basic meditation training in that school.

Law of resonance in regards to learning

Imagine the frequency of your body to act as a tuning fork. If you are around other tuning forks of the same frequency that are being activated, your tuning fork will begin to vibrate due to their energy output if on the same frequency.
So practicing this in a group allows you to first tune the frequency in while others are activating it for you. Before long you have received the transmission well enough to remember it and repeat it on your own. Taking advantage of this speeds up development and keeps you on track. Hence the need for a teacher.

Just a few thoughts
Mark

Mark,

Thus I have hear.

the issues are

1, there are pre birth shen and post birth shen. until one get in to the pre birth shen. it is hopeless to training the yee. most of the people today is using the post birth shen and that is duality. thus, they cant stay long in the meditation and the non dual cannot open up. After the Dantien is fill to a certain level, the post birth shen must be drop to go ahead......when one is cultivate the qi in the dan dien one needs to use both the martial type of chi an
literate type of qi to heat it up, to warm it up..... and then use the shen to concentrate it.....

2, you are a buddhist, good I believe is you heart. read the shurangama.

“Further, Ananda, if living beings in the six paths of any
mundane world had no thoughts of killing, they would not have
to follow a continual succession of births and deaths........

http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v6.020526.screen.pdf

This is the process towards non dual.

The Ear Organ...

“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.

http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v5.020526.screen.pdf

you make your own judgement how close you know and follow this? if not one need a sifu. Who know these.... I would not second guess but begging for a sifu.

will you still be a wingchuner after you enter the door?

Best Regards

Remember the Shurangama. that is the core of Zen. and the precepts must be follow. for thousand of years since the Buddha, the process never changes. and BTW the first few step of the process lead one from post birth shen to prebirth shen. Yes, there is only one non dual. I spend 30 years to get this far baisi with lots of sifus and lots of screw ups to spy a little bit. how much time do you think if one keep thinking in the old duality way can have a grasp of what it is even in the surface?

Starting the internal with I and I want to do something is a trap. starting with I like to let go anything to reach there. that get one in a proper direction. and they are both in the opposite direction. One is creation one is undo. the undo knows how to create however the create trap themself in the creation dont know how to undo. That is the bottom line.

At certain point of meditation, one let go, and that get one into the flow. but letting go is not drift into dreaming or sleeping or lost in thought streams, but enter into silence. no thought at all, no Nim Tau. ( that is the reason I argue, it is siu lin tau, detail training essence, not Siu Nim Tau (small idea) for any idea big or small keep one outside the silence. thus, that doesnt fit our kuit as it says using silence to lead the action.) Let go let god. that is prebirth....

As it says in the kuit, Using Silence to lead action. without entering there to silence how can one knows? but once one enter into silence will one come back to live as a duality person? chances is not for life and death become a tiredsome struggle.

Thus, I have heard.

which world do you live in? do or undo

Just some 5 cents.

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 06:13 PM

so may be we need to ask.

Is your wing chun internal instead of is wing chun internal?

Katsu Jin Ken

08-31-2008, 07:34 PM

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 07:49 PM

"External should become internal in the long run, and the internal styles may incorperate the external with relaxed power like fajing. The Waiji and Neiji both need to be practiced. You need a balance because the external practices are faster and have more action. But you need control too, and internal methods are more involved with developing the mind and the qi. But in the end the hard has to meet the soft and the soft must come together with the hard. They have to mix."- Grandmaster Chen Yun-Ching from this months Kungfu Taichi Mag.

disregards what others said, internal = release = undo.

external = do = create.

A "do" based long run will not get one into undo infact it becomes more and more do and more and more complex. look at some martial art with 10000 forms. it traps itself to death.

Using a 'Do" based to mimic internal will not do it because if the person keep simplified it the system becomes incomplete. such as some system get critics become a system of a single rapid middle punch.

An "undo" system using a let go let go core. thus, it is always let go let GOd disreagards of how the external form or shape it. The body is like snake because it has to be capable of "limitless" transformation as needed.

if the "undo " concept get lost, the whole system is gone.

Can Jesus Christ be a master if one foot he steps on keep thinking making more money for himself and one foot he steps on the kingdom of God?

World has become not making any sense. thus, we facing with Thai boxer or mmA, all these so called internal guys dont know what to do, for the thai and mmA have thier edge who can crush their sharp edge with limited training in physical and no training in shen and qi?

Back to the non dual. dont understand that will not get one in. non dual is wuji. there is only one reality but do we know that reality or we keep speculate about reality within our mind. again, if one have never met Silence. by default one cant says one master wing chun.

" comes accept...... using the silence to lead the action." it is from this silence the milliod of things transcent. it is alive not fix to some mechanical or bio mechanical limiting action.

So how to fajing? how can a fajing has a fix mechanical or bio mechanical and still call flow? ask ourself. anything can fajing and fajing doesnt mean hit. wrap others like a snake is also fajing.

wake up. dont be mislead by culture tradition. what is the bottom line of Buddhism? simply could one enter the flow and reach non duality. doesnt have to do with I need to do this bow that or ware that pajama or who is my gure. CAn one coach you into the non dual? if not what buddhism is that? . there are 10millions way fo showing respect. but in order to learn something one needs to show respect to the teacher and that is baisi. See, things is not for sale it is on showing universal law.

Simply as anyone love to learn Chris' teaching. they go very humbly to the master, and the master will lead them. NOthing for sale. one needs to bring up one's resonance or vibe to accept the bigger vibe. these days some people are so stupid that they dont understand this.
does one have the vibes? if not one can pay but will not get it. does one have the vibes? if no how can one teach it to others?

Liddel

08-31-2008, 08:34 PM

World has become not making any sense

Well me laugh that made. :cool:

DREW

WingChunWay

08-31-2008, 09:10 PM

Hendrik

08-31-2008, 09:39 PM

Developing non dual, non - harming intent while training a striking art can be a dilemma. I focus primarily on join, intercept and break structure for my personal training.
This started strangely enough through door work as my job was to keep the peace when the fights broke out. After a few hundred punches being thrown at me by people who really wanted to hurt me, I found a sense of harmony in dealing with violence. Since my job was a peace keeper, it was my only option. By the time the Buddhism kicked it was just a process of emptying and refining it within the Wing Chun framework that ultimately becomes formless.------

watch out,

non dual is not using mind.
using mind how little it is to strategy, focus..... are the product of dual.
in the silence everything is there and flow. one just dont think.

one would not be able to know what is formless unless one enter the silence or quiet all thoughts.

When things are non dual there is no fighting or defending because you simply are not there to fight or defend.

with confusion, seperation is created, seperation then create the mind and mind further makes more seperation. the mind cannot stop itself. dont believe me? when you are sleep people call you are you going to awake? see it hard wire.

It sound like you had a wise teacher.----

i go to him because he is the patriach who carry the non dual seal of the buddha. want to learn the truth. go to those who has it.

Being nonself is less about what you do and more about your mindfulness as you do it. We are fighting and defending in everything we do in life, it is just happening on a different level. The mind is dual. It is mindfulness that allows a person to see the duality and have a choice on how to proceed. -------

mindfullness is still within mind, like a deep water fish, going shallow doesnt means see the sky. and know both sea and sky.

until one break the hard wire, one stuck in the mind and dual.

Your choice was to be out of Wing Chun, mine is to practice mindfulness of phenomena through it.
Just different paths.----

sure, however, i would not call my wing chun buddhist if i do it within dual. and also how buddhist is buddhist if teaching other to create more karma instead of liberation?

similar to the shaolin who dont have zen and martial is one non dual is not true shaolin. check it out. the reality is under the public eyes but people choose to not see it.

you want straight talk. here you get but you might dont like it. so do many. and somedays you know there is no alternative to end suffering. you give raise the fighting mind, you will attack fighting. law of attraction, law of resonance. but we all use these law selectively and the blame others.

internal wing chun " come ACCept. goes Accept to let it go, release and liberate, enter the silence and let everything flow." notice there is no think but accept accept, release, liberate, silence, flow. there is no think and mindfull.

dont believe me take a stop watch and see for youself how long can you stay mindfull and how wide you mindfull range? i say unless is in non dual, the range is limited not more then 180% hold to the mindfull even at the best condition not more then 5 mins. that is how mindfull is mindfull. the mind is lying to us and some choose to belive. ya, go to the spar, resolt, yoga class, meditation class... how mindfull is mindfull?

simple and clear but how many willing to see it?

some even complain I use the EEG and HRT to check one's condition. see we are not willing to admit we dont know but saying different path. I told Rene once, saying different path is just about giving face. if we start to say "you dont know S$it" and use the biofeedback machine to scan. the whole world will riote against you." so, everything is ok. as everyone likes it. eventhough it doesnt mean there is no truth.

my 5 cents

bawang

09-23-2008, 06:58 PM

yung chun in foshan includes qigong in their 3 forms, so i guess some style has internal parts.

lord po

10-02-2008, 11:29 AM

Hi to all,
I'm new here.

I jump directly in the discussion because I see it's very interesting.
My viewpoint is (as someone stated earlier) that if your experience is low or not enough interested in the long run,you should and must concentrate on pure physical level and bio_mechanics.

probably was the item number one in creating fast groups of fighter in the early days, maybe; I was not there!

If having been clear on the physical level, one has still the drive to be a beginner, and humble enough to say oneself that one's knowledge is nothing, then it becomes a long, endless path toward the internal.
Looking inside for subtle connections between things,chemical reaction controlled at will,and impulses given to SNC from one's source and so on.
and we are still talking about qi/energy.
(The field gets a lot subtle advancing versus "shen ability" and following the path and so on.But for this evidence as reality are often confused with tricks and false gurus.so we keep aside for now...)

This was the way to produce Monks, and of course this required deep dedication and lot of time.

Today is still the same paradigm and evidently the same two groups that discussing togheter finds them at one side of the corner looking the other for completion.

This has to be viewed not as a difference separing the fellow, but a tool to exchange even more.

Thank you for your attention.